Great failures.

[V8Ian]

There have been no shortage of very ordinary cars that became extraordinary successes, such as Morris Minor, Mini, Beetle and Corolla, but what about the converse.
Which cars were absolutely brilliant but total failures?

I'll kick off with the Citreon SM, arguably the downfall of the longstanding manufacturer, was in typical Citreon fashion, light years ahead of its counterparts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_SM

As a point of interest, the double chevron trademark, was representative of Citreon's use of herringbone gears.

[DoubleChevron]

I haven't driven many SM's. They really are the ultimate DS. It's a shame they always tried to sqeeze in under the engine capacities for taxation in france. Citroen owned maserati at the time. Rather than fitting there existing quad cam quad carby V8, they lopped of 2 cylinders creating a quad cam triple carby V6 (that's also used in the merak). I've worked on a Maseratie Khansim in the past too... The maserati and citroen cars from that era have a bizarre combination of parts. Eg: the Khasnim has a modified version of the Citroen SM diravi steering, high pressure hydraulic citroen brakes. and uses the citroen hydraulics to adjust the front seats and lift/lower the headlights. Very bizarre.

It's a shame an SM is so far out of my price range. Strangely we have a business in australia dedicated to importing and doing high quality restorations on SM's

Citroen SM Australia (http://car2.illawarraahit.com.au/)

Dunno how he keeps afloat given there basically an unknown car.

For those who don't know Citroens, imagine a 2 door coupe, citroen hydraulic suspension (yes it goes up and down and self levels),

=center point steering (you can completely loose a front wheel and the car won't veer)
=rear track is much narrower than the front for high speed stability.
=The steering work on the same principle as a light aircraft. There is no direct connection between the steering wheel and front wheel when it's pressurised. It's only 2turns lock to lock and aggressively centers itself at speed. Yet is finger tip light at parking speeds.
=That big bank of 6 headlights, the inner four turn with the steering wheel, the outer two (low beam) self level as they are hooked back to the anti-roll bars.
=the high pressure brakes, all your doing is opening a valve to allow high pressure hydraulics to flow into the braking system. There's no brake pedal, it's just a rubber "blob" on the floor that looks like an overgrown dimmer switch.

I'd have one tomorrow if I had the $$$ to fund it's purchase.

What killed these off was Citroen built these and the Citroen GS Birotor at the same time.

Citro?n GS Birotor 1 (http://www.citroenet.org.uk/passenger-cars/michelin/birotor/birotor1.html)

This bankrupted them (yet again) and the cars hit the market at the same time as the fuel shortage hit in the 70's .... killing them off in record time. Infact the factory tried to buy back all the rotaries to crush them so they wouldn't have to supply parts for them in the future.


seeya
Shane L.

[loanrangie]

NSU R80, quite advanced for the time yet loathed for some reason.

[PhilipA]

NSU R80, quite advanced for the time yet loathed for some reason.

AFAIR the rotor seals lasted about 2 times around the block.
It took Mazda many years to get them reliable.
Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

I'll kick off with the Citreon SM, arguably the downfall of the longstanding manufacturer, was in typical Citreon fashion, light years ahead of its counterparts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_SM

As a point of interest, the double chevron trademark, was representative of Citreon's use of herringbone gears.
WOW! I want one.


Oh, another great failure.
The XA GTHO.
http://www.gtho4.com/
Have a read as to why it failed.

[cuppabillytea]

I always fancied a Citroen. A Godess would do for me though.
Thanks to Ian i no longer have to wonder what a goat has to do with a lemon.

[cuppabillytea]

What about P76 ( The whole project). It started out with similar intent to the SM, but ended in OZ as a half baked answer to the big three's big sedans.

[pop058]

WOW! I want one.


Oh, another great failure.
The XA GTHO.
www.gtho4.com - Ford Falcon GT-HO Phase 4 (http://www.gtho4.com/)
Have a read as to why it failed.

Although there were 4 XA GTHOs, only one has "H" as an engine code and it is Calypso Green. The 3 red ones started life as "normal" XAGTs.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/384.jpg

[Mick_Marsh]

Although there were 4 XA GTHOs, only one has "H" as an engine code and it is Calypso Green. The 3 red ones started life as "normal" XAGTs.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/384.jpg
At the time they were ordered to be destroyed I think only one was complete, the Alan Moffat car.
The green one was owned by a dentist who sometimes used it to tow his caravan.

I find it interesting the reasons for it's demise when compared to what is available today.

A knee jerk reaction killed what was going to be a very desirable Aussie muscle car.

[carlschmid2002]

There have been no shortage of very ordinary cars that became extraordinary successes, such as Morris Minor, Mini, Beetle and Corolla, but what about the converse.
Which cars were absolutely brilliant but total failures?

I'll kick off with the Citreon SM, arguably the downfall of the longstanding manufacturer, was in typical Citreon fashion, light years ahead of its counterparts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_SM

As a point of interest, the double chevron trademark, was representative of Citreon's use of herringbone gears.

You don't see many of these. There used to be an old French lady who had a large house in Mowbray in the hills behind Port Douglas who had one. She had a husband called Otto who used to drive her around like a Chauffeur. I think her name was Mrs DeShernberg. Excuse the spelling. I have no idea. She had heaps of cats and her house was a mess but she brought a special bit of culture to Port Douglas back then, her and Otto in their Citroen. Thanks for the memories.

[V8Ian]

I was talking to a friend last night, he worked for Maxim Motors for ten years, including four as an apprentice. Maxims were the Queensland distributor of Citroen, Dutton the Australian and Victorian distributor.
For some reason Dutton relinquished the Australian distributorship and it was taken up by Jim Reddiex, who owned Maxim Motors. Maxims converted seven SMs to right hand drive, this work was carried out by Jim Reddiex' brother at the dealership.
My mate was detailed to clean the engine bay of one of the conversions, whilst the engine and gearbox were removed. In his quest for perfection he pressure cleaned the identifying tags off every electrical cable and hydraulic hose under the bonnet; he was a very unpopular third year apprentice for the rest of the day and made himself scarce in the tyre bay. :D

[DoubleChevron]

The factory only ever had a couple of RDH conversions done, and they were from an outside company too. There was never a "factory built" Right hand drive SM as such. Sadly after the SM peugeot took over Citroen and they made boring crap cars from that day on ( After first killing off the SM, GS birotor etc...). The last "real" Citroen is the CX before they came slightly different rebadged poogoes.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/381.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/1081.jpg

This is the very last of them ... A Series II CX with plastic bumpers...My father imported this from the UK back in 1996 ... I've owned is for about 12years now. I'll never sell it :)

There is an SM in Ballarat, several in Melbourne, a spectacular low milage car out of museum in Castlemaine.

There's quite a few weird and wonderful cars out there that would now be great fun toys to put onto a club permit in Victoria (that were too much of an oddity/different to use as a daily car in there time unless you were very wealthy).

I'd love an old Studebaker, even a rear engine corvair ...

seeya,
Shane L.

[jerryd]

[QUOTE=V8Ian;2378015][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]There have been no shortage of very ordinary cars that became extraordinary successes, such as Morris Minor, Mini, Beetle and Corolla, but what about the converse.
Which cars were absolutely brilliant but total failures?



I'd say the Citroen 2CV was ordinary and successful, but what about the 2CV Sahara 4wd ??

In French but worth reading the subtitles :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpodMNktmu0

[jerryd]

Here's a few in the rough stuff :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8WpuPYnCCI

[V8Ian]

Jerry have you seen the special 2CV built for the French rural fire brigade? It was basically two fronts welded together that eliminated the necessity of turning around, just hop out and get in the other end and drive. :D

[jerryd]

Haven't seen that one Ian, got any pics ??

My mate in the UK has turned a 2cv into a work ute :eek: , I'll see if I can find a pic of it

[V8Ian]

Haven't seen that one Ian, got any pics ??

My mate in the UK has turned a 2cv into a work ute :eek: , I'll see if I can find a pic of it
No pics, sorry mate; I saw it on TV before there was colour. :o;)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/307.jpg

[DoubleChevron]

Those 2cv 4wds are extremelly low powered. The original ones have two standard engines, 2cylinder 375cc flat twos..... So actually have a engine/gearbox front and back. They are so light if you bog one, you just need 1/2 dozen locals to help you pick it up and carry it out of the bog hole.

Weirdly enough they were used as military vehicles too... You see they were so light, and have such incredibly supple suspension, they could drop them from helicopters and planes and without them destroying themselves on landing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/06/280.jpg

They wouldn't be fun to drive in a war zone. They would slow a bullet about as much as a sheet of aluminium foil would :eek: :eek:

The 2CV Pick-ups supplied to the Royal Navy (http://www.citroenet.org.uk/foreign/slough/rn-pickup/pick-up.html)

I would have thought you 4wd guys would be more interested in the Kegresse....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE7sNh8zoJk

Smart people back then in the early 1900's .... See how they get over the ramp over angle problem? Have a look at the big "drum" mounted to the front. It rolls on bearings, so if the kegresse needs to drive over an obstacle that it's front wheels can't breach, they'd drive straight into the obstacle, the big drum will lift the front of the car up and over, allow the tracks to then mount the obstacle (I imagine nothing would stop tracks).

seeya,
Shane L.

[jerryd]

My friend Richard's 2CV Ute

[Chops]

WOW! I want one.


Oh, another great failure.
The XA GTHO.
www.gtho4.com - Ford Falcon GT-HO Phase 4 (http://www.gtho4.com/)
Have a read as to why it failed.

Thanks for finding that Mick. I absolutely loved my XA GT, such an awesome car to drive, regret selling it ever since it left my house :(

[DoubleChevron]

Here's a few in the rough stuff :cool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8WpuPYnCCI

that's hilarious ... I've never seen that before ... I saw the snatch strap come out and thought "here we go they'll tear the fragile thing into 2peices" ................ only for find they just line up half a dozen people to pull on the rope and out it comes :Rolling: :Rolling: :Rolling:

Those ones aren't a sahara twin engined factory 2cv. I know someone with one of them, there a conversion

Welcome to Louis Barbour Four Wheel Drive 2CV Site (http://www.2cv4x4.com/)

Here'st he same car on top gear with a defender.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7SHkT3lqFI

seeya,
shane L.

[cuppabillytea]

Hi DoubleChevron. Though you might like these pics of a Goddess my brother is trimming at the moment.

[cuppabillytea]

Sorry. Missed a couple.

[JDNSW]

Hi DoubleChevron. Though you might like these pics of a Goddess my brother is trimming at the moment.

Same colour as mine!

John

[DoubleChevron]

Nice. It's a shame the leather interior bits are so expensive. We have two here that could be retrimmed. To do it in leather would be > $5000 :(

Those central heating ducts in the front undertray look very familiar. I wonder where I have seen that car before :)

seeya,
Shane L.

[V8Ian]

Ford Edsel is worthy of these pages.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/562.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/563.jpg

[cuppabillytea]

Same colour as mine!

John
I envy anyone who has one. That is a really nice colour. Funny that coincidence, he's currently doing a job for a bloke who owns a series 1.

[carlschmid2002]

I wouldn't say it was a failure but they did eventually go broke. These cars were amazing for their time. They had features like headlights that turned with the steering. The term "It's a Duesy" for anything that was great and inovative came from the Duesenberg.

[cuppabillytea]

Nice. It's a shame the leather interior bits are so expensive. We have two here that could be retrimmed. To do it in leather would be > $5000 :(

Those central heating ducts in the front undertray look very familiar. I wonder where I have seen that car before :)

seeya,
Shane L.
My brother is in Toowoomba. a fair way from you. He's way too docile for that savage a bite. I'll ask him what he reckons.

[JDNSW]

Then there was the Southern Cross car. Built in very small numbers in the early thirties, it was doomed when the head of the company (Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith) disappeared in the Bay of Bengal.

Of unitary construction, with the body made of moulded plywood. It was equipped with a horizontally opposed four cylinder engine.

No examples now exist, and I can find no pictures.

John

[87County]

Then there was the Southern Cross car. Built in very small numbers in the early thirties, it was doomed when the head of the company (Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith) disappeared in the Bay of Bengal.

Of unitary construction, with the body made of moulded plywood. It was equipped with a horizontally opposed four cylinder engine.

No examples now exist, and I can find no pictures.

John

Here's a pic JD :)

It looked pretty schmick !

THE AUSTRALIAN SOUTHERN CROSS CAR, BUILT JUNE 1933: (http://www.auspostalhistory.com/articles/131.php)

[DoubleChevron]

My brother is in Toowoomba. a fair way from you. He's way too docile for that savage a bite. I'll ask him what he reckons.

Yeah my father refuses to pay that sort of money too ( and he has a DS23 5spd EFI with factory A/C in bits to restore).

https://www.franzose.de/en/Citroen-DS-11CV-HY/DS/Komplette-Sitzbezuege-Saetze-/

It's a sad time when it's cheaper to import the fully made trims for less than you could buy the leather pelts for locally.

seeya,
Shane L.

[digger]

Preston TUCKER made a very advanced car but got "squashed" by bigger makers who in turn adopted a lot of his ideas for their own cars later.

"The Tucker 48 (named after its model year) was an advanced automobile conceived by Preston Tucker and briefly produced in Chicago in 1948. Only 51 cars were made before the company folded on March 3, 1949.

Some components and features of the car were innovative and ahead of their time.
*The most recognizable feature of the Tucker '48, a directional third headlight (known as the "Cyclops Eye"), would activate at steering angles of greater than 10 degrees to light the car's path around corners. At the time, 17 states had laws against cars having more than two headlights. Tucker fabricated a cover for the cyclops center light for use in these states.

*The car had a rear engine and rear-wheel drive.
*A perimeter frame surrounded the vehicle for crash protection, as well as a roll bar integrated into the roof.
*The steering box was behind the front axle to protect the driver in a front-end accident.
*The instrument panel and all controls were within easy reach of the steering wheel, and the dashboard was padded for safety.
*The windshield was made of shatter-proof glass and designed to pop out in a collision to protect occupants.
*The car's parking brake had a separate key so it could be locked in place to prevent theft.
*The doors extended into the roof, to ease entry and exit.
Preston Tucker held a patent for a collapsible steering column design.
*A glove box was added to the front door panels instead of the more conventional location in the dashboard to provide space for the ?crash chamber? that the Tucker is now famous for. This is a padded area ahead of the passenger seat, free from obstructions, providing the front seat passengers an area to protect themselves in the event of an accident.
*The engine and transmission were mounted on a separate subframe which was secured with only six bolts. The entire drive train could thus be lowered and removed from the car in minutes. Tucker envisioned loaner engines being quickly swapped in for service in just 30 minutes.


Each Tucker built differed somewhat from the previous car, as each car built was basically a ?prototype? where design features and engineering concepts were tried, improved, or discarded throughout the production cycle.

The door releases on the interior of the Tucker came from the Lincoln Zephyr. The steering columns used in the Tucker were donated by Ford and are from the 1941 Lincoln.

Tucker envisioned several other innovations that were later abandoned.
Magnesium wheels,
disc brakes,
fuel injection,
self-sealing tubeless tires,
and a direct-drive torque converter transmission were all evaluated or tested, but were dropped on the final prototype due to cost, engineering complexity, and lack of time to develop.

(Imagine how more advanced we'd all have been had this stuff commenced earlier! :) )

Tucker initially tried to develop an innovative engine, with help from Ben Parsons, who at that time was the owner and president of the Fuelcharger Corporation, and would later be Tucker's VP of engineering.

It was a 589 cubic inches (9.65 L) flat-6 cylinder with hemispherical combustion chambers, fuel injection, and overhead valves operated by oil pressure rather than a camshaft. An oil pressure distributor was mounted in line with the ignition distributor and delivered appropriately timed direct oil pressure to open each valve at proper intervals. The oil pressure fed to each valve was "timed" by intake and exhaust eccentrics and measured by spring-loaded plungers.
Built of aluminum and magnesium castings with steel-plated cylinder linings, the huge pistons required up to 60 volts to turn over the starter, nearly 3 times the power of a normal starter.
This unique engine was designed to idle at 100 rpm and cruise at 250-1200 rpm through the use of direct-drive torque converters on each driving wheel instead of a transmission.
It was designed to produce almost 200 HP and 450 ft-lbs of torque at only 1800 RPM. When cruising at 60 mph it would only turn at approximately 1000 rpm.

These features would have been auto industry firsts in 1948, but as engine development proceeded, problems appeared. Six prototypes of the 589 engine were built, but the engine was installed only in the test chassis and the first prototype.
(wikipedia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tucker_48#Tucker_.231057.2C_the_alleged_convertibl e_prototype

tucker automobile images - Bing (http://www.bing.com/search?q=tucker+automobile+images&src=ie9tr)

A very innovative low slung car was being planned, its front guards turned with the wheels.
Bing Images (http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Tucker+Car+Replica&id=13B2F717BFD97D87888EED774395ADC7063BD498&FORM=IDBQDM)
(replica)

[JDNSW]

A must in this thread, and far more relevant in this country than the Tucker is the Hartnett.

Produced in Melbourne in the early 1950s, about 100 being delivered to customers. Failure of the company is claimed to have been due to breach of contract by Comeng, apparently correctly as several years later Hartnett won a court case against them on this basis, although being awarded far less than he asked for. At the time, the treatment of Hartnett by the Federal Government was compared to that of GM (The government bankrolled GM, but refused assistance to Hartnett and through government owned Comeng frustrated Hartnett's attempt to compete with GM. Hartnett had been the MD of GMH and responsible for bringing the first Holden to production, but was replaced by GM just before production started because he was considered "too Australian" (he was actually English!). Hartnett was also director of wartime production for the Commonwealth during WW2.)

The vehicle was a version of the Gregoire (designed by the man responsible in the 1920s for the Tracta joint used in early 80" Landrovers), and featured innovations such as aluminium chassis and body, four wheel independent suspension, front wheel drive, and claimed a top speed of 60mph from its horizontally opposed aircooled engine, and 70mpg, thanks to a mass of about 400kg, while being a 4/5 seat sedan.

It was a close relative of the Panhard Dyna.

John

[PhilipA]

How about the Mazda Roadpacer?

96538

Would have to have been a hit in Japan
Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

How about the Mazda Roadpacer?

96538

Would have to have been a hit in Japan
Regards Philip A
You have got to be kidding me!

I want one.

[bee utey]

You have got to be kidding me!

I want one.

You may be in luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDa-h3RcTkk

[V8Ian]

How about the Mazda Roadpacer?

96538

Would have to have been a hit in Japan
Regards Philip A
The lovechild of an RX 4 and HJ Prem.

[cuppabillytea]

Nice. It's a shame the leather interior bits are so expensive. We have two here that could be retrimmed. To do it in leather would be > $5000 :(

Those central heating ducts in the front undertray look very familiar. I wonder where I have seen that car before :)

seeya,
Shane L.
Hi Shane.
Sorry to take so long on this. The car that I showed you was 3,500.00 for door trims and seats. Covered but not re cushioned as that was not necessary.
Cheers Billy.

[Mick_Marsh]

You may be in luck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDa-h3RcTkk
Wow! 13B rotary.
I'm even more impressed now.

[Disco_Fever]

The Tatra V570...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/516.jpg (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/BigRedRegal/media/Stuff/V570_zpsmhkfp99z.jpg.html)

...and the Tatra T97.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/517.jpg (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/BigRedRegal/media/Stuff/T97_zpszkxf6dav.jpg.html)

Adolf Hitler rode in these cars, and said, "These are the cars for my roads."

Ferdinand Porsche admitted to looking over Hans Ledwinska's shoulder when designing the Beetle.

As a result of having their designs copied by Volkswagen, they sued for damages by the Germans, however when Czechoslovakia was invaded by the Germans, the lawsuit was funnily enough dropped.

It was then reopened later, and the result was Volkswagen having to pay 3 000 000 Deutschmarks to Tatra in 1967.

They did a lot of extremely innovative things between the wars - including the T87, which had a rear mounted 3 litre air cooled V8, which had a Cd of 0.36 - in 1936.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/518.jpg (http://s90.photobucket.com/user/BigRedRegal/media/Stuff/t87_zpsvr7qtdky.jpg.html)

[V8Ian]

The bloke with the funny mo may have ridden in them, but he apparently banned his officers from doing so because of their propensity to suddenly have the back overtake the front. It has been said that Tatras killed more senior officers than the Allied Forces. Could that be considered Czech karma?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

So they also copied the handling into the Porsche,,:p