Fail to proceed - LT230 Transfer Case

[Ranga]

Leaving home this morning, heard a bit of a rattle/clunk as I got to about 30kph. Had a poke around, couldn't really see anything obvious. Drove a couple of kms and a very noticeable whine got louder. After getting home, I've gone to drive out of the driveway and heard a loud clunk. From here on, the car was only able to slowly move, shuddering every second or so until I was able to get it off the road.

A mate believes it might be a rear gearbox shaft. Anyone able to comment from the vague info above?

[alien]

Hey stranger,
Is it doing it both high and low range?
Could it possibly be an axle or diff?
It may be time break out the jack and stands to investigate further.

[Ranga]

Hey stranger,
Is it doing it both high and low range?
Could it possibly be an axle or diff?
It may be time break out the jack and stands to investigate further.

The original little clunk/rattle noise did seem to come from at least the middle of the truck - didn't sound like the detroit in the rear. Parked on the side of the road at the moment, so unfortunately bit of a ***** of a place to put it on stands. Might try to get it back in the driveway.

[Ranga]

I managed to get it back into the driveway. I needed to reverse up 100m or so, and in doing so tested it in low range, which made no difference.

One thing I did notice, was when the vehicle was rolling the shuddering was still there with the clutch fully engaged. Not sure if this gives any further indication.

Might be time to put that auto box in that I've always thought about!

[alien]

Try rolling with the transfer in neutral.
That should stop the gear box from turning.


What systems do you get from a flogged out axle flange?

[redrovertdi]

pull the inspection/pto cover off the back of the transfer case and pull out the gear, you then see if you have stripped the output shaft.
Autos arent perfect but alot better imo

[simmo]

Bad Luck ranger :(, Dropping the sump plugs for gear box and TC, diffs will probably tell the story. Hope it's not to expensive.
cheers simmo

[Scouse]

Check the handbrake too. If something comes adrift in there & the shoes start grabbing, they can cause all sorts of strange noises.

[Ranga]

Think I found the cause (see attachments).

Looks like a transfer case replacement is in order. Probably an Ashcroft I reckon. At least I get the new sleeve to stop the leaks :). Also, luckily the gearbox shaft looks fine.

[schuy1]

Ouch! That looks a bit of a mess :( At least its not the whole box.

[Ranga]

Decisions, decisions...

Ashcroft have quoted about $2000 for a TC with upgraded seal and heavy duty cross pin inc delivery and no exchange to worry about. I'd be tempted to pay the extra 50 pounds to get 1.667 gearing. I do have an old TC with unknown damage - the external body has been knocked around, hence the exterior can't be reused, but perhaps the internals are salvageable. Perhaps I could make 1 good one out of the 2. Unfortunately, a very far away if I have any issues.

MR Auto have quoted $2400 exchange. They have the upgraded seal, not sure about the heavy duty cross pin or gearing. MR are just down the road, so handy if I have any after sales issues.

4wd Industries in Maitland do an exchange for $1600.

At this stage, I'm leaning towards the Ashcroft due to their good reputation, and the chance to keep by TC and try the rebuild.

Any suggestions?

[weeds]

I should have shopped around when my gearbox failed.........

My thought were that my original box lasted 300k, so I just opted for original parts to replace as I figured it would be good for another 300k......

The Maitland option looks appealing, you save 400 and I assume they have after sales backup.

Does the MR quote include remove and fit?? Have a good look underneath when picking up........and check reverse lights are still working [emoji41][emoji41]

[schuy1]

If MR exchange has the hd cross shaft and the other goodies it would be competive just for warranty ease. If it is just a standard rebuild its not really competive is it? The other option is get all the ashcroft parts and rebuild yourself.
Cheers Scott

[Ranga]

Does the MR quote include remove and fit??

No :mad:

By the time I get one shipped from Maitland, and ship mine down there, it probably costs the same as the Ashcroft, and I'm without a TC to practice rebuilding.

The more I think about it, the more I lean toward the Ashcroft.

[86mud]

Ranga, don't much around, just go ashcroft. Still cheaper then anything here and includes HD cross pin and sleeved seal on the shaft. I went reconditioned and it's noisy. (was not from MR).

It will cost about $500 - $800 to remove and refit my MR. (about 4 - 5 hours work plus oil etc)

Andrew

[Dervish]

What about customs costs and import duty etc? Aren't they going to push the Ashcroft price up?

[Ranga]

What about customs costs and import duty etc? Aren't they going to push the Ashcroft price up?

Yep, probably push it up by about $200

[Ranga]

Wondering whether I should go to 1.667 gearing. I don't do any hard-core off roading, but when travelling I'm at my maximum GVM.

[Dervish]

Wondering whether I should go to 1.667 gearing. I don't do any hard-core off roading, but when travelling I'm at my maximum GVM.

Here's what you are looking at:

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad246/OreganoM1/Screen%20Shot%202015-07-07%20at%2010.00.41%20am_zpsfyd4pd0g.png

Solid line is the 1.667, dotted is the 1.410. I would think the lower gearing would be uncomfortably loud - looking at the graph, 100km/h in 4th with the old gears would sound the same as 110km/h in 5th with the new.

This is with 235/85r16s.

[PAT303]

You could and see how it goes,I think it might rev too much on the highway but going up to 33'' could make it bearable.I'm watching this thread as my T/C is getting on and needs a rebuild or replacement. Pat

[Jock The Rock]

Sorry bit off topic

What's the deal with the upgraded seal?

Is that the rear output sod that always fills up the handbrake :censored:

Do they fit an LT95 as well by any chance?

[mox]

Seems to me is the first question that should have been asked here is what caused this damage. From the description of an initial whine, sounds like for a start a bearing collapsed enough for gears somewhere to be not meshing properly. If this remains the only problem and the improperly meshed gears are run under some load for a while, usually result is metal chewed off gears. However, from photos here looks like a piece of cage or roller from a failed bearing then got caught between the gears - probably more than once. Result, broken teeth and also if you look closely , almost certainly more cracks where bits have not completely broken off.

[mox]

Sometimes when bearing failure occurs, as seems to have been the initial problem here, if stray solid bits if metal do not get caught between gears because problem whine / initial noises were promptly investigated and /or bits dropped to and stayed in lowest point in box, it could most likely have been rebuilt with new bearings and seals. Relative to gears, bearings are cheap. If bits of metal have possibly been scrunched between gears that appear basically intact, they need close examination and /or crack testing. Otherwise damaged gear could subsequently break under load and cause a lot of other problems.

[mox]

Re economical replacement of transfer boxes, consider that many LT230's pulled out of overall "dead" vehicles are OK. Probably Disco ones with approx 1.2:1 ratio high range fairly easy to find. OK in Defender for some applications but others regard it a problem with first and reverse not slow enough. Seems standard Defender LT230 with 1.41:1 high harder to find and I think 1.667:1 very rare in Australia. Also, watch out for 1.003:1 . I bought what turned out one of these several years ago. supposedly out of a Disco but serial number and extra bits on it indicated it was from a Rangie with Torque Flite auto. Anyway torsional vibration damper recently fell apart on original Valeo clutch plate with very little wear on linings. In process of replacing it - including with a better quality clutch plate. am installing this transfer box which basically has one major part as not supplied by Land Rover. Standard input gear is 26 teeth which drives 41 tooth one on intermediate shaft. A while ago a had a special input gear designed and cut. ie 22 tooth and it instead drives the 44 tooth high range gear in the 1.003 box. Rather like a series transfer box back to front. Overall ratios 1.27:1 high range and 4.21:1 low. Will be interesting to see how it goes. Overall result is similar to Disco transfer box with 30% reduction Maxidrive low range gears. Seems a viable alternative to these and would not whine in low as straight cut gears do.

[Dervish]

Also, watch out for 1.003:1 . I bought what turned out one of these several years ago.

...

am installing this transfer box which basically has one major part as not supplied by Land Rover. Standard input gear is 26 teeth which drives 41 tooth one on intermediate shaft. A while ago a had a special input gear designed and cut. ie 22 tooth and it instead drives the 44 tooth high range gear in the 1.003 box. Rather like a series transfer box back to front. Overall ratios 1.27:1 high range and 4.21:1 low.

That is fascinating, do you have any pictures of the input gear?

[mox]

Re above, mate took some photos of standard and this 22 tooth gear both out of and in the box. Hope to get organised to post them in the not too distant future


Back to the original purpose of this thread: I pointed out that problem looks like a bearing failed and a piece from it went through gears and busted them. Should have also mentioned looking back further. ie Why did this happen? Was it due to oil level being low and/or water in it. Rust on the load surface of bearings can start them self destructing. If failed bearing looks burnt and blue, lack of oil probably at least part of problem. Maybe earlier Land Rover had been "marking its territory" with oil leaking through a seal and/or gasket and possibly even drew less attention to itself as oil level dropped and leak slowed..

[PAT303]

Sorry bit off topic

What's the deal with the upgraded seal?

Is that the rear output sod that always fills up the handbrake :censored:

Do they fit an LT95 as well by any chance?

The hole in the case for the intermediate shaft wears allowing oil to leak,Ashcrofts bushes the case and fits a better seal.Your output shaft is leaking because the bearing doesn't have enough pre-load allowing the output shaft to float,it quite often gives a vibration at certain speeds also. Pat

[rory]

Ranga, something to think seriously about when importing a box from the Uk is definitely the warranty issue.
Last year I imported an LT230 from the UK and yesterday I did the first oil change (20'000KM). The oil came out a thick grey colour and the metallic drain plug had a substantial about of shredded metal pieces stuck to it.
The box drives perfectly, no worrying sounds at all. Im just hoping I dont run into any problems in the near future, as sending it back aint going to happen.

[Ancient Mariner]

The hole in the case for the intermediate shaft wears allowing oil to leak,Ashcrofts bushes the case and fits a better seal.Your output shaft is leaking because the bearing doesn't have enough pre-load allowing the output shaft to float,it quite often gives a vibration at certain speeds also. Pat
You can possibly retighten the output flange nut but you cannot preload a ball bearing
You can also mod the output housing to accept a double row ball bearing:o
AM

[Ranga]

Ranga, something to think seriously about when importing a box from the Uk is definitely the warranty issue.

Fair call, but I've heard nothing but good reports about Ashcroft.

[Sitec]

Strip yours apart and see what's actually scrap. With chunks missing like that, the center gear taper rollers have prob collapsed. My LT is coping with a 5.9 litre Cummins up front, but I did increase the sump capacity, and fit a plate between the sump and box to stop any spreading that there might or might not be. There must have been a hell of a lot of noise for there to be that much destruction.

[Sitec]

Seen this one?

Land Rover LT230 Transfer Case Discovery 2 TD5 | Engine, Engine Parts & Transmission | Gumtree Australia Caboolture Area - Elimbah | 1082919021 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/elimbah/engine-engine-parts-transmission/land-rover-lt230-transfer-case-discovery-2-td5/1082919021)

[Ranga]

There must have been a hell of a lot of noise for there to be that much destruction.

Actually, it was fairly innocuous really. Mind you, the first little rattle was at 20kph, and the final clunk was at 5kph when exiting my driveway. Would have been interesting at 100kph - a lot more damaged teeth I'd imagine! :eek:

[Ranga]

Seen this one?

Land Rover LT230 Transfer Case Discovery 2 TD5 | Engine, Engine Parts & Transmission | Gumtree Australia Caboolture Area - Elimbah | 1082919021 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/elimbah/engine-engine-parts-transmission/land-rover-lt230-transfer-case-discovery-2-td5/1082919021)

Not keen on the Disco 1.2 gearing

[schuy1]

Not keen on the Disco 1.2 gearing

Yes, but it may give you another box to work on. Swap the 1.6 set out for whatever takes your fancy from Ashcroft:D

[Blknight.aus]

only reason i dost recommend Ashcroft is usually the turn around time.

Mostly when I'm sourcing a box for people its a cae of "need it this weekend so its running for monday."

[Sitec]

Yes, but it may give you another box to work on. Swap the 1.6 set out for whatever takes your fancy from Ashcroft:D

That was my thinking too... Build the ratio you want into a recent box.

I have an early V8 110 in the yard (guessing its 1.410 as the 110's were in the UK), but don't know the condition of the box, and won't b able to look at it until mid aug as I'm in the process of moving house!

[weeds]

No guarantee local suppliers will back up there product......agree most don't have time on their side.

[SSmith]

You can also mod the output housing to accept a double row ball bearing:o
AM

This I would like to know more about

Sent from my GT-S7562L using AULRO mobile app

[Dervish]

This I would like to know more about

Sent from my GT-S7562L using AULRO mobile app

There are pictures here. (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/land-rover/1626818-i-blew-up-my-lt-230-koh-took-me-out-14.html#post28599882)

In fact that whole thread is pretty interesting reading for anyone interested in modding a LT230.

[rick130]

The hole in the case for the intermediate shaft wears allowing oil to leak,Ashcrofts bushes the case and fits a better seal.Your output shaft is leaking because the bearing doesn't have enough pre-load allowing the output shaft to float,it quite often gives a vibration at certain speeds also. Pat


The local rebuilders re-bush the case too, MR charge $150 for a changeover re-bushed case, I had a local machine shop do mine and it cost a little over $200, but they did it my way, and the new intermediate shaft is tight

I also used a stiffening plate like Sitec, as the extended sump may allow a little spreading under load, it won't resist spreading like the standard, ribbed plate, particularly with the increased torque of Maxi Drive gears.

[Sitec]

For those curious as to the plate idea, here was mine before it got put behind the Cummins!

[rick130]

For those curious as to the plate idea, here was mine before it got put behind the Cummins!


I pinched your idea but did it a little differently with some input from Bush65 so that we had a continuous web across the bolts so that the load path was as direct as possible.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=94335&d=1432456733

This was before the t/case was pulled down and rebuilt. :D

[PAT303]

The local rebuilders re-bush the case too, MR charge $150 for a changeover re-bushed case, I had a local machine shop do mine and it cost a little over $200, but they did it my way, and the new intermediate shaft is tight

I also used a stiffening plate like Sitec, as the extended sump may allow a little spreading under load, it won't resist spreading like the standard, ribbed plate, particularly with the increased torque of Maxi Drive gears.

I have decided to keep my Tdi and sell the TDCi when the time comes so mines going to be stripped and rebuilt right,I'm not going as far as plating etc,I don't feel the need to go their but a bushed casing and ATB will see me never having to fix the damn leak ever again or worry about center diff shims,I was looking at either an auto conversion or MT82 but will most likely stay with the R380,the MT82 won't suit the Tdi IMHO and it's a big spend if I'm right. Pat

[Ranga]

Well, I hope Ashcroft's products are better than there sales team. two requests now over the last week for info haven't had a reply. :mad:

[Disco Muppet]

That's odd.
I normally get a reply within 24 hours.

[Sitec]

Same.. They're usually very quick.. I think David has even been known to frequent this forum... Bear with them, its not normal for them to be slow with the replies. :)

[Ranga]

Called them tonight. No apology or interest really in my emails not being responded to.

Ultimately, an LT230 wouldn't arrive here until at another 2 weeks. Might need to start re-assessing other options.

[Ranga]

So, I started pulling apart an old LT230 I managed to get my hands on with busted mounting lugs (don't know, don't ask!).

The cogs all look OK in this case, so I'm thinking of putting them into my failed case. Naturally, I'd need new bearings and gaskets ect, and I'd like to get the sleeved upgraded.

Ashcroft do a rebuild kit - Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/lt230-rebuild-kits/lt230-master-rebuild-kit.html) - but I was hoping that all this can be sourced locally for a decent price. Anyone got any suggestions?

Also, anyone know where I could get my case resleeved?

The way I see it, I'm going to replace the whole TC otherwise, so reckon it's worth having a shot at rebuilding it first. The only loss would be the money spent on the rebuild kit, and time.

Any flaws with this plan?

[Disco Muppet]

No flaws that I can see if you have the suitable manuals and equipment, they're a pretty basic piece of kit to work on. MR Auto could do you an exchange sleeved casing I'd imagine?
Theoretically I think any machine shop could sleeve it for you but that depends on how much you trust them ;)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

MR do exchange cases for $150.

As for the t/case, you'll need a dial indicator and magnetic base to do the bearing preload on the input shaft, I doubt anyone has the setup block to do the bearing preload on the centre diff, so you'll need a spring balance to test the turning load on the centre diff.

Access to a press is really handy, otherwise it's a PITA pressing bearings onto the centre diff assembly and some sort of heat source to heat the housings to drop bearings into them, saves cracking them just using a press.

<edit> I bought the rebuild kit plus two sets of shims, one for the input shaft, the other for the centre diff from Ashcroft's.
About the only thing missing was one of the seals for the speedo drive.

[weeds]

Which parts need machining??

And by how much??

It cannot be much machining for $150 considering MR would have to earn a quid out of it.

[rick130]

Which parts need machining??

And by how much??
The case needs machining and a bush pressed in for the intermediate shaft.
I had a top hat section machined from some 4140 and pressed in with some sealant, I think some just use a straight bush, either works.
The shop I used charged $214, they did a good job so I'm happy.

The aluminum case ovalises at the front where the large section of the intermediate shaft locates which creates the oil leak that most of us experience.

Check out Ancient Mariners LT230 build thread. I didn't do the double row bearing mod, just ran out of time and reckoned that the t/case bearings survive pretty well with the standard bearings, but I like the overkill of the double row mod. :D

[Ranga]

Which parts need machining??

And by how much??

It cannot be much machining for $150 considering MR would have to earn a quid out of it.

Just the sleeve.

[Ranga]

I reckon I'll go with an Ashcroft, and use the 2 damaged TCs to practice rebuilding on (if anything). This will get me going quicker, with more peace of mind.

BTW - when they upgrade the sleeve, why do they machine the case and not the pin? I would have thought machining the pin would have been easier (but I'm not an engineer :D).

[rick130]

BTW - when they upgrade the sleeve, why do they machine the case and not the pin? I would have thought machining the pin would have been easier (but I'm not an engineer :D).



The aluminum case ovalises at the front where the large section of the intermediate shaft locates which creates the oil leak that most of us experience.

The case is softer than the shaft and with load over time the bore for the shaft becomes oversized/displaces material.
It needs to be machined oversized and bushed back to the correct diameter for the shaft.
Don't think I have a photo, Ill have a look.

[Ancient Mariner]

The reason for the double row bearing was with 9" diffs MXA5R GB and the torque pulses of the 4.7 Isuzu I felt the LT230 needed all the help I could give it:o would not normally have bothered

[Ranga]

The case is softer than the shaft and with load over time the bore for the shaft becomes oversized/displaces material.
It needs to be machined oversized and bushed back to the correct diameter for the shaft.
Don't think I have a photo, Ill have a look.
Yeh, I understand that, but could you also put a sleeve in that fits an unmodified case, and machine the pin down? Thinking it would be easier to modify the pin than the case.

[Dervish]

Yeh, I understand that, but could you also put a sleeve in that fits an unmodified case, and machine the pin down? Thinking it would be easier to modify the pin than the case.


I have heard - never seen - that one failure mode for the LT230 is that the intermediate shaft bends. Machining down the shaft would encourage that tendency.

Also, machining the shaft wouldn't change the fact that you have an oval hole in the case.

[PAT303]

And the pin is case hardened. Pat

[steane]

Fair call, but I've heard nothing but good reports about Ashcroft.

I've recently fitted an Ashcroft R380 and LT230 and I've since had the TC out 4 times chasing oil leaks which turned out to be from both the TC and GB. Thought I had it fixed (new GB oil pump and TC input seal) but it still weeps and I'm guessing it's the TC input seal (again) this time. As it's only weeping it's staying as is but it's very disappointing.

It gives me the [insert expletive] that I have to spend time and money chasing issues with an expensive product that shouldn't have issues.

I'd buy locally next time so that the person who did the rebuild could fix it under warranty.

Leaks aside there are no issues aside from a dysfunctional change into 2nd gear when cold that seems to be improving with use.

[Blknight.aus]

I reckon I'll go with an Ashcroft, and use the 2 damaged TCs to practice rebuilding on (if anything). This will get me going quicker, with more peace of mind.

BTW - when they upgrade the sleeve, why do they machine the case and not the pin? I would have thought machining the pin would have been easier (but I'm not an engineer :D).

machining out the ally and sleeving is easier than necking down the pin. Faster too if you have a jig for it.

Additionally as the pin is case hardened where it necks down becomes a potential fatigue fracture zone especially if its not radius relieved properly. A radius relief when pressed up against an ally casing and side loaded will put pressure points onto the ally causing extra problems later o.

[Ancient Mariner]

And the pin is case hardened. Pat
similar to the rind on cheese :D:twisted:

[PAT303]

similar to the rind on cheese :D:twisted:

At least it bloody works unlike Toybota's poor excuse that wears through in as little as 100k and everything welds together. :mad:. Pat

[Ranga]

Yet another email to Ashcroft, this time actually asking how to pay for an LT230 (over $2k worth) has gone un-answered after 3 days...

[steane]

Yet another email to Ashcroft, this time actually asking how to pay for an LT230 (over $2k worth) has gone un-answered after 3 days...

I found them to be pretty good but they needed a nudge every now and then. Busy I guess and I wouldn't hold it against them.

Are you emailing Dave direct?

dave@ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk

[rick130]

I found them to be pretty good but they needed a nudge every now and then. Busy I guess and I wouldn't hold it against them.

Are you emailing Dave direct?

dave@ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk


Ditto, one email did take a number of days to be replied to, and I've had Dave return email me in about 30 seconds too !
Surprised the hell out of me and always found him very forthcoming with info.

[loanrangie]

Why wouldnt you just either source the parts here for a rebuild or buy a recod box , saves the duty and waiting time or excess shipping costs.
Surely any modz that ashcroft do can be done here.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[rick130]

Why wouldnt you just either source the parts here for a rebuild or buy a recod box , saves the duty and waiting time or excess shipping costs.
Surely any modz that ashcroft do can be done here.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app


I try and support the local importers as much as I can but I saved quite a bit by buying a rebuild kit and shims from Ashcroft's, admittedly as I really didn't pay for freight as I was buying an LT230 ATB too.

[Ranga]

Why wouldnt you just either source the parts here for a rebuild or buy a recod box , saves the duty and waiting time or excess shipping costs.
Surely any modz that ashcroft do can be done here.
Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

A mixture of lack of skill, courage and self-belief. Also, I'd like to get this back on the road sooner rather than later. :)

However, the TC that I pull out will almost certainly be a self-rebuild ;)

[Ranga]

Yet another email to Ashcroft, this time actually asking how to pay for an LT230 (over $2k worth) has gone un-answered after 3 days...

I must confess, I got a pretty quick reply after sending it to the correct address! :angel: