Strange noise from Left bank of M62 engine

[davus]

Hi Guys,


Been a little while since ive posted.


Ive recently upgraded from the P38 to an L322. I bought it with significant timing chain issues (collapsed guides) and vanos issues.


Ive fixed those all up myself, and everything it running nicely now, with the exception of a strange noise coming from the left bank of the engine (Passenger side on a RHD drive car).....


Its hard to explain, but it almost sound like a "buzzing" noise.


I took both belts off and started then engine for about 3 seconds, so I know its not a pulley, power steering pump, water pump, air con, or anything else hooked up to the belts.


It does however appear to be RPM effected. IE: As the RPM goes up, the noise gets louder.


Here is a youtube video of the noise -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaqdqBQ4ClY


And here is another youtube video someone else posted with the same noise as mine.....just louder. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLpDzlYI7eU


Any hints?. What is this "bladder" a few people mention?. I cant see anything.


Many thanks guys.!


Dave

[Laurie]

Dave
Check you exhaust manifold gasket for a leak!

Laurie

[davus]

Hi Laurie,

Thanks for the suggestions. Ive checked all bolts etc around the exhaust manifolds, and done as good a visual inspection as i can with my mirror.

This morning i finally got it all back together after checking the upper timing covers for contact, and checking the guides to ensure nothing had come loose. After letting the car warm up, brought the revs again up to about 2500 rpm, and my noise can clearly still be heard.

Im quite sure the chain is not rubbing on the timing cover, and i really cant see how the tension on the chain could be too tight?. There is no adjustment at all.....its simply held taught by the tensioner. SOme people have suggested the chain may be too tight. But i dont see how that can be the case??

Im pulling my hair out over this one guys. The noise is definitely coming from the left side of the engine, and if i had to choose, id say it was about half way down the engine length. However with all the other engine noise going on at the same time though, its very difficult to tell.

The only guide on the left hand side is a plastic one......dont think the chain rubbing on that would make that noise?

If anyone has any other ideas, or has heard this noise before in their car..........please let me know. Id be very appreciative.

Dave

[PhilipA]

Here is your answer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzi_hsPr2js
Regards Philip A

[davus]

Hi Philip,

Thanks for your reply.

It certainly does sound like the same noise, although this engine seems to make the noise at idle, whereas mine is only at slightly higher revs.

Im stunned that it could be the guides though, theyre all brand new??. Is there something i may have done while installing them?.

I took the upper timing covers off and shone my torch in there. The guides are all still in tact and seated properly.

Dave

[cripesamighty]

Hey Dave,

A guy I knew years ago had a similar noise and it turned out to be the Vanos unit failing. Check out the following links if you haven't seen them already on your interweb travels. It may help narrow it down a bit.

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E31/BMW_M60_M62_M62TU_Engine_Scary_Noises.htm

http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/6-range-rover-mark-iii-l322/21872-bmw-m62-engine-permanent-rattle-knocking-noise-2.html

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1544521-Engine-noise-only-when-warm


Cheers,

Cripesamighty

[davus]

Thanks very much for those links cripes!.....

Ive had a read of all of them, and im not feeling as though any of them hit the nail on the head. Primary reason being the noises are quite different, and appear to happen under different situations.

Additionally (and ill do my best to try and explain this)......If i start the car when stone cold, it makes a grindy / whiny noise, but only for literally about 1/2 a second.

Then, if i raise the RPM to 2500 straight away, the noise in posted in my video above does NOT happen.

It only starts happening after about 3-4 minutes of the car running and beginning to warm up.

I must say - ive worked with a lot of engines, but more old school. This is a little more "fancy" than what i'm used to and its really got me miffed.

@Philip - I contacted that youtube user, and he came back to me saying the noise was being caused by his guides being shot, and the metal chain rubbing on the metal guides. This is not the case in my situation. Guides are new and all in tact. I cannot however rule out things being too tight - but didnt think this would be an issue.

Hoping someone can lend a few more ideas..

Regards

Dave

[davus]

Hey guys.....

One more piece of information which I think i have failed to mention is that this noise is NOT evident at all when the car is at idle. The noise is only evident above about 2000 RPM. Additionally it ONLY happens once the car is started from stone cold, and has warmed up for a few minutes. If started stone cold, and brought straight to about 2000 RPM, the noise is NOT there. Once warm, if i turn the engine off and start it again it is still there (above about 2000 rpm).

This is the last day im gong to be able to work on the car for a little while. So im really hoping someone might have other possibilities that i could have a look at?.

Thanks so much guys. really hoping i can sort this out. Its the only thing i need to do to get the car back on the road!.

Many thanks.

Dave

[Blade74]

I'm no expert but could the timing chain tensioner not have the tension it needs or be a bit sticky??
Does it sound like a chain slapping sound?
Or is it more around the valves??

[PhilipA]

I would be looking at the chain tensioner . Maybe swap from side to side if they are the same.
If the M62 is like earlier VANOS engines there should be a tiny mesh filter under a bolt on top of the VANOS assembly. If this gets blocked it could cause oil starvation to the VANOS gear.
Regards Philip A

[davus]

Thanks very much guys..

Blade - its very hard to determine where the whine is coming from. At 2000 theres a fair bit of other noise going on in the engine bay, but it almost sounds about half way down the length of the engine to me.....possibly even coming from lower the the heads.....but i could be totally wrong.

I Dont think its going to be not enough tension in the chain. Theres certainly no rattling or anything like that, and when i had the valves covers off (exposing the vanos units and chain), there was plenty of tension in the chain.

Philip - The M62 only has one tensioner, which is bolted into the right hand upper timing cover. It is a brand new tensioner. I could swap this out back to my old one, which could potentially loosen it off a little. Id be comfortable doing this as it has brand new guides and a new chain so very little chance of it jumping, plus the original tensioner isnt that bad.

I have thought about the left bank being starved of oil. It seems to be OK for the first little bit (about 3-4 minutes), and then seems to make the noise only at slightly higher RPM. Im not sure though. I took the valve covers off and there is certainly enough oil sitting in the heads.

Can anyone tell me a way i could confirm if the left bank of the engine is receiving adequate oil flow?.

Dave

[Laurie]

Dave
Some other points to look at!

This doesn't seem to be your problem, but some L322's had different dipsticks (prob BMW ) that indicated oil was full, but it wasn't due to the bigger sump on the L322.

The non-return valve behind the VANOS might be U/S ? Remove the solenoids and renew all the O rings. Also the non-return valve on the oil filter housing has been know to fail! Though it would cause the whole motor to be noisy.


I would next check the cam-shafts on that bank still having issues and see if their having any problems. Shirley had noise problems in her motor and this what it turned out to be.

Hope you can find the cause !

Laurie

[davus]

Thanks for the reply Laurie!!.


I had my cousin around yesterday, and whilst not a mechanic, he (like me) very much enjoys rebuilding engine etc in his spare time, so has good mechanical knowledge.


He seemed convinced it was something to do with the oil filter arrangement. I held the car at about 2000-25000 RPM, and he was certain the noise was coming from somewhere under the left head, around where those oil lines marry up to the block (on some adapter plate).


I was also thinking about the non-return valve behind the vanos, and think its a good idea. I shudder at the thought of pulling all that stuff off the engine again!!!.


I have another car exactly the same ( not running), so I think it may be time to start swapping parts externally (oil filter housing etc) and see if I can pin point it.


Again - if anyone has any ideas - please please let me know!.


Dave

[PhilipA]

Did you set up the VANOS as per the manual?
It has to be in a certain place in its travel etc.

Regards philip A

[davus]

Hi Philip.

I setup the vanos units as per the besian instructions, which stipulate that the vanos unit itself has no relative positioning on the camshaft?.

I did ensure the center piece of the vanos was rotated as far as it could go counter clockwise before I tightened everything.

I also also purchased the bmw timing kit so have all the relevant specialty tools to set the timing correctly.

Can you elaborate on your comment about the vanos having to be in a certain place in its travel? Just to ensure I have understood you correctly.

Many thanks!

Dave

[PhilipA]

Can you elaborate on your comment about the vanos having to be in a certain place in its travel? Just to ensure I have understood you correctly.

No I really cannot remember, as I sold my M3 about 6 years ago. I just had a vague recollection that it had to be in a certain position.
Regards Philip A

[davus]

hi guys,

Just wanted to update this to post what i believe was the solution, after running the car last night for about 20 minutes with no noticeable noise.

As much as i had replaced the timing guides, chain, done the vanos repairs etc, i had NOT done an oil change, or a filter change (was still waiting for them to arrive in the mail).

Last night the oil and filter finally arrived. I drained all the old oil out (very black and thick), and removed the lower sump. Was not surprised at all to find pieces of guide in there.....i was expecting that. However what i also found was an almost completely blocked oil pickup. Wedged almost fully with very small pieces of plastic guide. The pickup surface was extremely reduced.

Spent an hour or so cleaning it all out (with the vanos right angle pick would you believe). Managed to get all the pieces out, put it back together with new oil and a new filter, and hey presto.......silent as a mouse all the way through the rev range.

So, i guess at the end of the day it must have been a starvation issue of sorts.

A simple fix at the end of the day, and had i ordered my oil and filter to arrive sooner, i never would have had the issue in the first place!.

Thanks to everyone for your input. Forums like these are an absolute goldmine.

Dave

[Blade74]

Good to hear.
It's always nice to find the solution.
The RR fights to live another day. :-)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I hope the noise was the only starvation problem---:o