Road-Handling and Ride Quality

[garrywlh]

Yesterday, I drove a Series 2 Land Rover on the road for the first time in my life.

Yes, Lettie (aka, Lettice Curtis) is now registered, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience - an iconic, open-top motor trundling along scenic back roads on a beautiful morning.

But, it raised a few questions for me as a newby to the classic Land Rover experience: Given that she is a utility vehicle from 1959, what can be done to maximise ride quality and road-handling?

1. wheels - balanced and aligned (will have to investigate this. I know there are specifications somewhere on this forum for toe-in/out, etc. for steering)

2. tyres - type, condition, inflation (I'm getting 2 new front tyres today)

3. suspension - Lettie's leaf springs are pretty 'flat'. Can anything be done to reshape/refurbish them?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=95853&stc=1&d=1435800181

4. steering - feels 'loose'. How can it be made more precise and sure?

Anything else I should be looking at?

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Garry

[Phil B]

Garry,
From experience all of the facors you mentioned will effect the ride quality.
Balance - obvious
Alignment-only the toe in/out is adjustable. Get this right as it makes a huge difference. I would set them at zero and see how it feels.
Tyres-again good ones of the correct size make a huge difference. Don't go wide, it just makes the steering heavier (if thats possible). Stick to 235/85 AT's or close to that if you can.
Springs-they are all available new in normal or parabolic. I went parabolic and found them to be much softer.
Shocks-the best you can afford!
Steering-the most important of all-make sure the steering box and servo have oil in them and are not tight, adjust the steering box free play if it has any(you said it feels loose), check all ball joints for free play. If they have any replace them. You can also check your hubs for free play in the main Railco bush and bearing, adjust if necessary.
You should obviously do all of this before adjusting the alignment.
Regards,

[Lionelgee]

Yesterday, I drove a Series 2 Land Rover on the road for the first time in my life.

Yes, Lettie (aka, Lettice Curtis) is now registered, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience - an iconic, open-top motor trundling along scenic back roads on a beautiful morning.

Garry


Hello Garry,

Congratulations on getting Lettie registered !!! :) I hope it is one of many enjoyable drives you have together.

I am still waiting to drive my Series III on the road, not just around the paddock. One day!

Kind Regards
Lionel

[garrywlh]

Thanks so much, Phil. You have given me a few things to digest and work on.

One question straight up. Tyre sizes are a complete mystery to me. How do 235/85 AT tyres compare to 7.50x16 LT which is what I currently have?

Thanks,

Garry

[vnx205]

235/85x16 is the same circumference as 750x16, but a bit wider.

I only ever had 750x16s on my LWB Series III. At speed and off road, I never felt the steering was unusually heavy, but it felt pretty heavy when parking. I'm not sure I would have wanted a wider tyre and heavier steering.

[Homestar]

The springs will always work and feel better with weight on them. Utes are typically a bit worse when unloaded. I always found a truck tyre in the back of my Holden ute made a big improvement. If you have something that can sit in the back that weighs 150Kg or so will make a difference, but everything Phil mentioned is worth doing first as this may get it to a point you're happy with without having to cart a load around all the time.

[Phil B]

Gary,
As vnx205 said they are basically the same. Possibly 235/85's are easier to get hold of. An added advantage about going to 235/85/R16 is that they give you slightly longer legs and I've found that the engine seems happier with the slightly lower revs. I have used BFG 235/85/16 AT's and found them to be very good but that's personal preference. I like the tread pattern.
Not cheap but they will probably outlast the vehicle.
Good luck.

[JDNSW]

Yesterday, I drove a Series 2 Land Rover on the road for the first time in my life.

Yes, Lettie (aka, Lettice Curtis) is now registered, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience - an iconic, open-top motor trundling along scenic back roads on a beautiful morning.

But, it raised a few questions for me as a newby to the classic Land Rover experience: Given that she is a utility vehicle from 1959, what can be done to maximise ride quality and road-handling?

1. wheels - balanced and aligned (will have to investigate this. I know there are specifications somewhere on this forum for toe-in/out, etc. for steering)

Balance, of course, toe in 1.2-2.4mm Nothing else is adjustable, but check for loose or bent components.

2. tyres - type, condition, inflation (I'm getting 2 new front tyres today)

Original tyres were 6.00x16, and it will drive best on this width and diameter. 7.50x16 was optional, but if these or similar diameter are fitted, it should have 5.5" width rims (marked on wheel) and a lwb speedo. You should not go wider than 7.50 unless you are prepared to put up with very heavy parking steering. Road tread tyres will drive better than mud, but if you need a Landrover, you probably need something with a better grip than road tyres! (except sand)

3. suspension - Lettie's leaf springs are pretty 'flat'. Can anything be done to reshape/refurbish them?
Springs are fairly flat under load anyway, but can be reset or replaced (either with standard or parabolic ones). With standard springs shockers are not critical, but if parabolics are fitted you need shockers designed for them. Standard springs will benefit from disassembling, cleaning, painting and lubricating.
4. steering - feels 'loose'. How can it be made more precise and sure?

Steering should have very little free play. Get someone to rock the wheel while you see where the free play is. Look for free play in tie rod ends, splines onto the steering box and top and bottom of relay, steering box or relay loose. Check for steering arms loose on swivel housing. Jack up each front wheel and rock the wheel to check for free play in wheel bearings or swivels, loose wheels.

Check U-bolts front and back for tightness and signs of axle moving. Check all spring bushes - note that all movement must take place by flexing of the rubber.

Check tyre pressures. Over the years of Series production, recommended pressures varies, but for radials, 30-35 all round unloaded will give good steering, although ride will be a bit harsh.

Anything else I should be looking at?

Any advice greatly appreciated.

Garry

It is a good idea to consider fitting headlight relays, as this will greatly improve lighting.

John

[will d8r]

Cary
I've got a Series 3 88 It tends to wander abit.Its on Bridgestone radials,when I put the 750's back on it tends to wander less.I think being so short doesn't help you do get used to it after a while.
Cheers Will

[Phil B]

Wandering could be several things:
worn ball joints
too much free play in the steering box
Not enough toe in.
The SWB does tend to wander but small adjustments will fix it.
Regards,

[garrywlh]

Thanks so much, gents. Lots to be going on with.

She has 7.50x16s because she began life as a GS Command Recon truck for the Army. The front tyres had brilliant tread when I got her, but were very old and hard. I have new ones on as of today and can't wait to try them out.

John, you mention standard and parabolic leaf springs. The difference is lost on me. Which would a S2 military LR have had, as I suspect these are original. I'd like to look at refurbishing them, as I did with Hedley's; so, apart from de-rusting, lubricating, painting and new bushes, what is involved in 'resetting' them? It sounds like a specialist job?

And I'm a bit daunted by the issues related to steering, though really appreciate the great, detailed advice. And reassured to hear that a bit of 'wander' is to be expected. Fortunately, I don't intend on any high speed driving!

Enjoying the challenge of fine-tuning all these issues now that I can actually road-test changes as I make them.

Garry

[JDNSW]

Thanks so much, gents. Lots to be going on with.

She has 7.50x16s because she began life as a GS Command Recon truck for the Army. The front tyres had brilliant tread when I got her, but were very old and hard. I have new ones on as of today and can't wait to try them out.

If it had 7.50x16 from new, it probably has the right wheels and speedo

John, you mention standard and parabolic leaf springs. The difference is lost on me. Which would a S2 military LR have had, as I suspect these are original. I'd like to look at refurbishing them, as I did with Hedley's; so, apart from de-rusting, lubricating, painting and new bushes, what is involved in 'resetting' them? It sounds like a specialist job?

The springs you have are standard. Parabolic springs have the tapering of the springs by changing thickness of the leaves, not by having progrssively shorter leaves, and in Landrover applications have only two or three leaves, the leaves touching only at the tip of the lower leaves (and, of course at the axle).

And I'm a bit daunted by the issues related to steering, though really appreciate the great, detailed advice. And reassured to hear that a bit of 'wander' is to be expected. Fortunately, I don't intend on any high speed driving!

I do not believe that "a bit of wander" is to be expected. Every time I have had that with mine I have been able to find and rectify the problem. Although the steering is probably not as precise as is expected with modern road cars.

Enjoying the challenge of fine-tuning all these issues now that I can actually road-test changes as I make them.

Garry


Hope this helps.

John

[Timj]

Hi Garry,

If the vehicle was originally army then it would have had the extended spring hangers, extended shackles, longer shock absorbers and probably a small scoop cutout at the top front edge of the cross member under the gearbox. All these gave a little extra clearance under the body but did not require a change of the actual springs. Parabolic springs usually are set to give some lift themselves so on a military chassis may be a bit too much.

Resetting standard springs can be done at home but methods vary in their requirement for tools and experience, an internet search may help there. Resetting can also be done by a spring works and may be the best way depending on your confidence. No guarantee that they will get them right as far as height goes though. The amount of "set" that a spring has is measured from the ground to the spring when they are sitting upside down and in some of the manuals there is also a measurement for the distance from the spring to the bump stop. Yet again this would be different for a military chassis. It is also worth noting that the set of a standard spring is different on the driver side to the passenger side to allow for the weight differences due to diffs, fuel tanks and driver.

It is possible to do things like chamfer the ends of each spring, diamond cut the ends and add UHDPE or Teflon tape or strips between the leaves to get better action and ride. You can also remove a leaf or leaves from a spring pack to soften them up depending on the load you plan to carry, the army usually went for a load rating rather than a comfort rating :). With a leaf spring though an improvement in ride is always relative and will never match a well set up coil for that though they can be very impressive with articulation offroad.

Hope that helps a little bit.

Cheers,

TimJ.

[Homestar]

Yeah, got to agree that when sorted it shouldn't wander.

My 101 (which is very similar apart from the steering box) had plenty of wander when I bought it, but after finding the arm on the steering relay loose and a buggered ball joint, it now tracks well and doesn't wander - even at speed (well 110KPH) even sitting on the huge 255/100/16 Michelin XZL's it runs. It's tight and I can throw it around a lot more than most would believe.

There are a lot of points that have to all be spot on - a bit of wear in each will add up to a lot at the steering wheel. You've got the steering box, 6 tie rod ends, steering relay and railco bushes in the system - and they will all have some wear with the age they are.

[Dinty]

The vehicle in question is a Series 2 88" Comm/Recon car and it will not have extended shackles etc, but will have std Land Rover shocks front n rear, cheers Dennis
ps good work Gary, on getting it registered, now you just need the time to get it fine tuned, cheers,,.

[LandyAndy]

Disco 1 steel rims improve road handling due to the wider track.
Purists wont like them!!!!!,another option is the Defender 130 rim to widen the track,at least it looks as it should:):):):).
You need the later hubs/studs,early series have thiner studs with the same PCD.
You cant use Disco/DefendeRRC alloys unless the correct studs are fitted,from memory they have a | mark across the end of the stud.
Andrew

[JDNSW]

They might improve the handling (although why you have a Series Landrover if your major concern is handling is a mystery), but they increaser the steering load parking speeds and increase the already substantial turning circle. And they look ridiculous, although this is hardly a worry if they really do something for you (they also provide you with tubeless rims and a wider variety of tyres).

John

[mick88]

My S3 shorty has parabolics and I have been right through the steering to ensure anything that was worn was replaced. It steers very well.
I have fitted a new relay unit, but before doing so I used to find that the steering would wander when the old relay box was low on oil. Try topping yours up and it may improve things. You could also reposition the arms, it improved mine whilst I was waiting for a new one to arrive from the UK.
Remove the arms and rotate the shaft 90 or 180 degrees and then replace the arms and see how that goes.
I also find if my tyre pressures get down it does not drive as well.
I am running Bridgestone 15x7 tires (9R15LT). They are not a high profile tire, about 28-29 inches, as I also run 3.54 diffs and a "Roamerdrive".
Good luck!!!


Cheers, Mick.

[Ozdunc]

I'm running 7.50 x 16s on Bill, and I wouldn't want to go any wider as slow speed turning is heavy enough as it is thank you very much.

Going though all connections in the steering, making sure there's enough oil in the steering box and the relay on the chassis, and removing any play in the steerer box did the trick for me. Bill steers certainly as well as my coil sprung 80 series Landcruiser.

If all that stuff checks out and its still vague, check for play in the hubs. Actually check for play in the hubs anyway, its a good thing to do and makes your Land Rover feel loved. ;)

Resetting the springs doesn't affect the ride quality, just the height. Strip the springs and refurbish them first, that makes a massive difference in comfort.
If the springs have sagged you can get them reset, I did but it didn't really last so I don't think it was great value for money.
Best thing I did was buy an extra leaf for each side, cost me less than $30 shipped to my door, and that raised the front end to just above stock, and is not harsh at all.
Another thing you can do is cut half the height off your bumpstops to stop that heavy crash as you go through all the travel. Give you an extra 20mm or so upward travel and still stops the axle before the shock is fully compressed.

[mick88]

Before I went to parabolic springs, about every three months I would jack the vehicle up by the chassis to let the axles drop and the springs to relax and separate a bit.
Then I would give the springs a good liberal spray with "Innox"
I would leave the vehicle like this for a day or three, doing the Innox thing three or four times a day. After doing this the difference in spring movement was remarkable, it really freed up the leaves and got them moving.
By the way, if you are running free wheeling hubs your top railco's (king pin) bushes might be dry causing them to not perform as well as they should and effect the steering.
That is assuming you have oil (or knuckle jam) in the knuckle housings.
They rely on the drive yokes to flick lubrication up to them, so a good idea is to turn the hubs in every so often or alternatively you can turn one side in for few days which will only spin the axle and not the whole diff and drive shaft assembly. Then give the other side a run for a few days.



Cheers, Mick.

[will d8r]

Dry railko bushes that will be why it wanders,never thought about that.Need to lock hubs more often.I do alot of k's with the hubs locked out.I'ts my transport when I visit our children.
I will replace the steering relay with the next rebuild.I replaced all the steering components and there no movement any where.
I just thought I don't drive it much I'm used to the discovery's road manners my 109 doesn't have locking hubs and it drives beautifully.
It has got up to 120k with roverdrive and wife driving.
Thanks Mick

[JDNSW]

....
By the way, if you are running free wheeling hubs your top railco's (king pin) bushes might be dry causing them to not perform as well as they should and effect the steering.
That is assuming you have oil (or knuckle jam) in the knuckle housings.
They rely on the drive yokes to flick lubrication up to them, so a good idea is to turn the hubs in every so often or alternatively you can turn one side in for few days which will only spin the axle and not the whole diff and drive shaft assembly. Then give the other side a run for a few days.



Cheers, Mick.

Actually, the easiest way to lubricate your top bushes is to do it without leaving the drivers seat. Once a week perhaps, engage four wheel drive (high) by depressing the yellow knob while stopped, and leave it there until you stop next, then disengage the usual way by engaging and disengaging low range. (since the hubs are unlocked, you are not actually driving the front wheels)

This also has the advantage of exercising the transfer case linkage, which sometimes rusts and sticks if not used occasionally.

John

[garrywlh]

Thanks again for the advice.

I have made a start on road-handling issues. Still a long way to go.

I added some weight to the tub to see how much difference that makes (four 6.00x16 wheels - about 100kgs). I have to say, the extra weight does have a noticeable dampening effect on the springs. The ride feels better, even though this is obviously not a permanent solution, but an interesting experiment.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96725&stc=1&d=1437388311

I reduced the pressure in my 7.50x16 tyres to 32. I also found that the steering box was practically empty, so topped it up with some SAE90 oil. I also topped up the steering relay using a small syringe, only to discover the next morning that most of it had leaked out onto the garage floor! I can only assume this means the relay has been operating 'oil-free' for quite some time.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=96726&stc=1&d=1437388756

I finally managed to get the locknut free on the steering box so that I could hand-tighten the adjuster. This does seem to have firmed up the steering noticeably. Had to buy a 15/16" spanner and cut it down to get it to fit in under the wing and onto the lock nut.

Anyway, steering has improved. Toe-in settings are next, then I need someone who knows what they are doing to look at the rest of the steering system (including the relay).

[Homestar]

Good start and great to see the experimentation. :)

The seal in the bottom of the steering really is replaceable - I think pretty easily by the sound of it, but don't try and pull the whole relay apart - it has a HUGE spring in it under massive tension that will do you harm or worse if you pull it apart.

[JDNSW]

The relay seal is replaceable without removing the relay, but if it has been dry for some time, it may need more than oil. It can even be overhauled without removing it, but as bacicat warns, do not attempt to disassemble it beyond removing the end plate to replace the seal unless you know exactly what you are doing.

It contains two sets of split tapered bushes, held against their conical journals by a strong spring between them. As soon as the inner assembly is moved far enough for the bushes at the emerging end to clear the housing, the bushes and the spring will be propelled out at high speed, and will not stop if your head or hands are in their path.

John

[gromit]

The biggest problem is often getting the relay out of the crossmember, one at the weekend took several hours of work to remove.
The spring isn't a big issue getting the relay apart, rags over the end and drift the shaft, bushes spring etc. into the rags. Reassembly is a bigger issue because you need to compress the spring to get it back together.

If you remove the lower steering arm you can take out 4 bolts, remove the locating flange, then remove 4 bolts with undersize heads and remove the lower endplate. You need a paper gasket and an oil-seal (as long as the shaft where the seal rubs isn't damaged or pitted). If the shaft is pitted you have to remove the shaft to repair it.

I did this on my Series I http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/159944-1956-series-1-pto-welder-home-made-6.html#post1994239

Here is a thread with the making of a compression tool & reassembly of the relay http://www.aulro.com/afvb/other-powered-series-land-rovers/151959-isuzu-c240-powered-series-3-a-19.html#post1923438

Beware of aftermarket relays (**itpart etc.), they are low cost for a reason. If you can repair an original it is likely to be a stronger more reliable unit in the end.


Colin

[Ozdunc]

A temporary fix can be to put a small amount of brake fluid into the oil, this causes rubber seals to swell.
It probably worth a try seeing as your other option is to replace the seal anyway.

[Ozdunc]

Oh and your other option for a comfy ride is to remove a (some) springs from the rear, esp if you're not going to be carrying anything most the time

[gromit]

A temporary fix can be to put a small amount of brake fluid into the oil, this causes rubber seals to swell.
It probably worth a try seeing as your other option is to replace the seal anyway.

Not sure about that one, brake rubbers don't tend to swell unless there are contaminants in the brake fluid.
There are products with plasticisers that rejuvenate seals but it's so easy to drop the bottom plate and replace the seal.
Seal size is 1.5" x 1.125" x 0.25", any bearing shop should have them, gaskets are 40cents at my local LR supplier. Try not to buy the seals from a LR supplier as some tend to carry poor quality seals that fail very quickly.

Pair of seals $7.70 from a bearing stockist today.

Colin

[UncleHo]

G'day Garrywlh
I gather your vehicle is a shorty,I have a 68 long GS,with my 750 x 16 radials I run 4psi in them,it takes the wander out so they act like conventional cross plus,my toe in is set at zero,what I did with my springs when I rebuilt it was to separate the leaves,lightly go over them and de-scale them with an angle grinder,and VERY lightly champher the ends and radious the corners,about a 1/16,give them a good dose of black paint,re-bush including chassis,so far they have lasted 176,000 miles,with the 2.25 it will do about 90-95kph and drinks at the rate of 15 miles to the gallon (4.5ltrs) I have this since 1986 bought as a very tired vehicle,total strip and rebuild,old army rego number was 172-484, I live up near Bribie Island so we might get together some time.

I am a member of the Military Jeep Club of Qld as I now have mine on concessional (club) rego,it restricts use but it is cheaper,one has to be a member of a recognised vehicle club to get that, we have several Landys in the club,including a couple of Perenties.

cheers

[garrywlh]

Thanks Uncle Ho, love to get together sometime. When I'm confident, I'd like to attempt a run down to Bribie, so I'll let you know. And, yes, she was a SWB Command Recon. truck. ARN 111-685.

I'm gradually working my way through the advice on this thread. Next step will be to fix the relay seals and check the toe-in.

I will refurb the spring sets in due course also. While I was under there this afternoon, I checked the clearances against my Operation Manual. Rear axle top to rear of bump stop at chassis is 144mm left side and 148mm driver's side. Manual specifies 144mm, so I'm happy with that.

While there, I decided to replace the canvas check straps with 2 nice ones I only recently discovered I had! Two things I don't get

1. How important are these straps? I wouldn't have thought they would do much, but the state of the old ones indicates they have obviously done some work over time.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=97173&stc=1&d=1438411501

2. Why are the fixings not the same as in my Operation Manual. They bolt into the side of the chassis rail, rather than onto a small mounting bracket welded to the chassis? Not a big deal, just curious.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=97172&stc=1&d=1438411633

cheers

Garry

[JDNSW]

They are there to protect the shock absorbers, and probably do little unless driven energetically off road. The difference in fixing may reflwxt difference between lwb and swb.

John

[schuy1]

That type of fixings I have not seen on any chassis long or short . To me it looks as if they are after additions. The remains of the originals may be the 2 vertical strips visible on the chassis in the photos. As John said they protect the shocks from rebound damage.
Cheers Scott

[garrywlh]

I took Gromit's advice and removed the underside fixings from Lettie's steering relay, then got hold of an oil seal (1.5/1.125/0.25) from a bearing shop, but then managed to wreck it when trying to press it in place past the metal lip on the oil seal retainer.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=97218&stc=1&d=1438582711

Is there some special technique I am missing? I can easily get another seal, but imagine I will do the same damage to it.

thanks

Garry

[gromit]

I took Gromit's advice and removed the underside fixings from Lettie's steering relay, then got hold of an oil seal (1.5/1.125/0.25) from a bearing shop, but then managed to wreck it when trying to press it in place past the metal lip on the oil seal retainer.



Is there some special technique I am missing? I can easily get another seal, but imagine I will do the same damage to it.

thanks

Garry

I can almost press them in by hand normally otherwise a flat piece of timber over the seal and press in using a vice.

I'm confused by the picture of the bottom plate (oil seal retainer). There seems to be something left in there, part of the old seal ??
The old seal needs to be extracted (a screwdriver should do the job to lever it out) then the new seal pushed into place.


Colin

[garrywlh]

Thanks Colin,

I have scraped out any and all old rubber that I can - yes using a screwdriver. Is there supposed to be a metal lip on both sides of the 'channel' that the seal sits in? I have to force the seal past this lip (a narrower diameter opening than the diameter of the seal) and this bent it.

Or should the diameter of the 'seat' be uniformly the same as the seal? Here's a diagram in elevation of the shape of the seat in relation to the seal...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=97249&stc=1&d=1438602441

Hope the diagram is clear.

[gromit]

Garry,
There shouldn't be a lip at the top, the recess should be (as you suggest) the same diameter as the seal.
It looks like you've removed the rubber lip part of the seal but left the steel casing still in there. You need to get a screwdriver (or a proper seal remover) and lever out the remains of the old seal.
The new seal will then be straightforward to fit.

Best of luck.

Colin

[garrywlh]

goodonya, Colin. That did the trick.

I did not realise that steel rim was part of a removable casing. It's been removed now!

Got the seal in place, cleaned up the components and put everything back together, then injected some 90 oil up to the filler plug. Finished off with a nice coat of penetrol.

Will it still leak!? That remains to be seen, but no sign of seepage so far.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=97277&stc=1&d=1438664996

Went for a run to test and, yes, I have to say (maybe I'm just getting used to her) with each small step, the steering feels firmer and surer.

Wheel alignment next.

Thanks again for the help, chaps.

[gromit]

Garry,
Remember that the seal at the top keeps water out so at some point it's worthwhile replacing that one as well.
I've done two where they were full of rust, I machined down the sealing surface and the seal still worked OK, probably should have fitted a speedy sleeve.

This is what happens when oil leaks out & water leaks in.....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/08/883.jpg (http://s1245.photobucket.com/user/cradley/media/Series%203%20Isuzu%20C240/DSCN2701_zps0ec7a0fc.jpg.html)


Colin