Snorkel/RAI or ****

[karlz]

the purpose of snorkel is to stop water/dust etc from entering engine- Yes? I also assume that adding a permanent snorkel/Rai will affect the amount of air able to enter the engine, i.e. making performance worse.

I experienced riding a motorbike thru deep water, I added a length of hose (a snorkel), but it was really noticeable that power dropped significantly off when it was on. It allowed me to drive thru the river though. Then I disconnected it and off I went.

They do look cool though.
But do we really need one?
Water yes, I see the point, but dust grime etc...
Do they really stop dust etc..
Do they make performance worse?

Do they just look cool/tough?

Btw. Thinking of getting one :)

[tact]

the purpose of snorkel is to stop water/dust etc from entering engine- Yes? I also assume that adding a permanent snorkel/Rai will affect the amount of air able to enter the engine, i.e. making performance worse.

I experienced riding a motorbike thru deep water, I added a length of hose (a snorkel), but it was really noticeable that power dropped significantly off when it was on. It allowed me to drive thru the river though. Then I disconnected it and off I went.

They do look cool though.
But do we really need one?
Water yes, I see the point, but dust grime etc...
Do they really stop dust etc..
Do they make performance worse?

Do they just look cool/tough?

Btw. Thinking of getting one :)

My take:
Unless you are doing water crossings where you come close to dunking and so need a safety margin. (which in itself means you are going to face water ingress elsewhere and have other problems to deal with - and don't care about that because you are an intrepid adventurer and will have taken extra steps to see all the duct work and other sensitive bits are sealed up)

AND/OR

You drive a helluva lot through bulldust (not the office kind)

AND/OR

You just really like the look/style....

Then its a just ****.

[Summiitt]

Would never have a vehicle without one..but then again mines a work ute, not a toy..and yes they make a difference in dirt road driving for air cleaner cleanliness..

[DiscoMick]

Definitely worth it for cleaner air and peace of mind, I reckon.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[jimr1]

Hi karlz , Funny how you ask this question . just yesterday my son called in , anyway we were outside having a chat , and I noticed he had turned the head of his snorkel/rai around 180* I asked him why have you done that ? He said my gas has been playing up , " Toyota 80 series " he said he thought It was his converter ! Then he said I got thinking about It , so I turned It around to see if It made any difference . Runner sweet as now , too much air getting forced in . I put my hand over It and they do suck , when revved . So they do work . Nice and high get that cooler air , and away from the dust !!.. Jim :)

[4wheeler]

As others have mentioned, it depends on what you do with your Land Rover. Having the air intake on the Defender just behind the wheel instead of in front is an issue in terms of dust intake. As far as I can see the intake would suck dust in more easily than if it was located forward of the wheel behind the headlight like most other 4x4's. Sure, if following other 4x4's in close convoy it probably does not make too much difference. That's why a leave a good gap. However in slower dusty track situations in a Defender, the higher the better IMHO.


I have put a RAI on almost all my 4x4's and it has never made a scrap of difference as far as I could tell in terms of performance. Most of the time (except for cheap RAI's) the bore of the inlet tube is greater than the OEM ducting so should have negligible impact on performance.


After cracking a head after traversing a deeper bog hole where the bow wave on exit sloshed back into the intake of my petrol 4x4 many years ago (which did not have a RAI), for me a $350.00 Safari snorkel or similar is cheap insurance.
I prefer the look of the Defender without a snorkel, but given the cost of engine repairs if you intend to use your Defender for what it was designed for, then for me RAI is the way to go provided all ducting is sealed properly.

[AndyG]

Combined with a Nugget pipe kit, it makes a really cool burbly noise, theres another for reason :D

[debruiser]

Combined with a Nugget pipe kit, it makes a really cool burbly noise, theres another for reason :D

Yep I got this too! Have the Nugget kit and a Mantec metal jobbie. The induction noise is the best!... or maybe I just need to get out more :p

[Tombie]

As others have mentioned, it depends on what you do with your Land Rover. Having the air intake on the Defender just behind the wheel instead of in front is an issue in terms of dust intake. As far as I can see the intake would suck dust in more easily than if it was located forward of the wheel behind the headlight like most other 4x4's. Sure, if following other 4x4's in close convoy it probably does not make too much difference. That's why a leave a good gap. However in slower dusty track situations in a Defender, the higher the better IMHO.

Stick your head out the window next time you have the chance...

Almost no dust in that area...

However, if it was at the front - even a gentle splash of liquid could be terminal :cool:

[cuppabillytea]

The Defenders air intake is in a pretty good spot I reckon. If you look at the vehicle after a day or two in dirt, you will notice that, that spot is one of the cleanest on the car. However I noticed that sticky dust was collecting on mine after a while so I erred on the side of caution and got a Safari Snorkel, having been told by the Land Rover parts man that that was the best one. Do I fell like a ******? Yes a bit. Do I have peace of mind? Yes a lot.
Tact. After hearing of some of your adventures I think you of all people should get one. You just never know. One day it might be a little bit deeper than you thought.;)

[tact]

Stick your head out the window next time you have the chance...

Almost no dust in that area...

However, if it was at the front - even a gentle splash of liquid could be terminal :cool:


The standard position on a Defender is also the spot where the water level or wash, post bow-wave, is at its lowest while you maintain forward motion.

I have hung my head out driver window and watched as that water wash curled under, and as it got deeper, halfway up the stock air intake grille. (Dont have and don't want a snorkel or RAI)

Wasn't at all worried about water half way up the grille. (Ever sucked on a straw where the open end is totally submerged in your drink, but it has a tiny hole in it?)

[cuppabillytea]

The standard position on a Defender is also the spot where the water level or wash, post bow-wave, is at its lowest while you maintain forward motion.

I have hung my head out driver window and watched as that water wash curled under, and as it got deeper, halfway up the stock air intake grille. (Dont have and don't want a snorkel or RAI)

Wasn't at all worried about water half way up the grille. (Ever sucked on a straw where the open end is totally submerged in your drink, but it has a tiny hole in it?)
Really Neil, I don't want to harp but if you of all people don't need a water proof snorkel, they need never have been invented.

[Tombie]

The standard position on a Defender is also the spot where the water level or wash, post bow-wave, is at its lowest while you maintain forward motion.

I have hung my head out driver window and watched as that water wash curled under, and as it got deeper, halfway up the stock air intake grille. (Dont have and don't want a snorkel or RAI)

Wasn't at all worried about water half way up the grille. (Ever sucked on a straw where the open end is totally submerged in your drink, but it has a tiny hole in it?)

Your vehicle, your call...

Hope you never stop mid crossing :D

[tact]

Really Neil, I don't want to harp but if you of all people don't need a water proof snorkel, they need never have been invented.

Heh! my point exactly. :thumbsup:

(And all that in an electrickified TDCi)

[tact]

Your vehicle, your call...

Hope you never stop mid crossing :D

And you, dear sir, again reaffirm the great respect I have for your opinions. A respect born of reading so many posts you've made - all good!

You are absolutely right in that stopping in water up to, or over the lower edge of, the stock air intake - may well have been fiercely detrimental to vehicle life.

And that detriment in stopping would be coming from a couple of directions:
- inside the vehicle filling up with water (consequences!)
- water hitting turbo
- engine ingesting water
- bearings, boxes, diffs etc...

Even without stopping there were consequences. (Cost of proactive change to all oils in all boxes/diffs. Evidence of water around wheel bearings so stripped and regressed etc). All of which I was happy to bear.

Just to defuse the minds of the unimaginative (or overly imaginative) let me hasten to write:
- I don't advocate others taking on such deep water activities, with or without a snorkel (but I will argue passionately against those who cast nasturtiums on the TDCi capability to even go near water, as I have gotten out of my cyber sofa and done it)

- heck, I don't intend to go so deep ever again. I don't need a snorkel to give me a safety net if my plan is to never go more than 500mm in future (as I know via my own experimentation that at that depth (500mm) I know have another 400mm safety net available already). Std disclaimer that walking a crossing, or following others' path, to avoid surprises, do fully apply.

- even when I did go so deep it was not without certain confidence and calculation.
1. I knew my path well, smooth flat hard bottom with no undulations or surprise holes/dips. I knew where it would shallow up again. Very well.
2. I knew the lay of the dirty air intake ducting and that it is riddled with gaps and completely unsealed.
3. I counted on the holey straw analogy working for me.

This last point (2- dirty air intake duct) deserves some treatment in detail - I experimented a lot.

Here is a dare for anyone with stock dirty air intake ducting: Take a sheet of 80gsm photocopy paper and place it over the air intake grille. The amount of "suck" (non-SI unit) at idle won't even hold the paper against the grill. It will fall to your feet. You need to dial up about 2500rpm before there is enough suck to hold a few grams of paper against the air intake grille. (Of course it is "push" not "suck" that holds the paper to the grille eventually - the push of atmospheric pressure trying to get air into the duct opening blocked by the paper)

Here is another dare. Go for a drive. Keep it in 1st gear. Reach out the driver window and slap that sheet of paper on the grille (not grill - that's for the lobster later) and run up and down the rev range. Dare you to notice any reduction in engine performance due to the obstruction.

That there are multiple air paths into the dirty air duct before (and where) it enters the bottom of the air cleaner, and that many of these air paths are higher than the actual external intake grille, and that the physics of the straw with a hole in it are real, and the path to the turbo intake is via the top of the air filter box lid, which in itself is not sealed well - all says that it doesn't matter a toss if the if the air intake grille were to take a brief full face slap of water.

I bet on all that. Because I wanted to see. Could have turned to custard. Didn't. Now I know I am ok to run without a snorkel with a self imposed 500-600mm wading limit as that comes with a 300-400mm safety net (which does not remove the need to take the usual precautions to avoid surprises)

(Of course if I were planning a trip to the tip of Cape York - where plenty of YouTube vids show the need for much deeper than 500mm deep wading.. Everything changes.)

[cuppabillytea]

Ditto Tombie. and fair call Neil. I guess I could be a bit of a nervous Nelly.

[4wheeler]

Stick your head out the window next time you have the chance...

Almost no dust in that area...

However, if it was at the front - even a gentle splash of liquid could be terminal :cool:

As usual, thanks for your input.
I would not argue that in general, the intake position is fine and might well be better than a front mounted intake for both dust and water. I made mention of slow dusty conditions which from my experience found the intake position wanting. Your experience might well be different which is how most things are in life I suppose.

Getting back to the question of whether a RAI is useful or not, my opinion was that they are good cheap insurance on a Defender if the vehicle is used in the bush given that the Defender snorkel by Safari is on the lower cost end of their entire 4x4 range.

To illustrate the improvement with a well sealed RAI, I just took the ram head off my Safari snorkel, started my 2.2 engine at idle then blanked off the intake. The engine dropped revs immediately and I noticed the snorkel body began collapsing inwards where it covers the intake, so I had to stop. Happy days! I fitted my own RAI as others I have had fitted by shops rarely bothered sealing the ducting properly.

Everyone will have their opinions and experiences but it gives me more confidence knowing that I have sealed all the ducting and drains well enough that I can induce enough suction through good sealing to start to collapse the ducting. It also means that the air box top clamping on the air filter element is currently in good enough condition at present. So I now have better sealed ducting than standard factory ducting to roof level. I am happy that my Defender is far less likely to suck in dust and water than standard.

[tact]

Ditto Tombie. and fair call Neil. I guess I could be a bit of a nervous Nelly.

I wouldn't say that, a nervous Nelly, cuppabillytea. Just do make sure it is really sealed up properly and then it's there always should you need it.

(BTW - Hope you didn't think I was thinking of you when I mentioned "... the unimaginative (or overly imaginative)" in the long note I wrote. Certainly NOT intended. )

As for me - the day may well come when I am stuck the wrong side of a river that wasn't so flooded when I went in - and can't get out. Maybe I'll wish I had fitted a snorkel on that day. Or not. ;)

[Eevo]

never know when you'll hit a pothole that you didnt see and its deeper than the rest.
snorkel is cheap insurance

[cuppabillytea]

I wouldn't say that, a nervous Nelly, cuppabillytea. Just do make sure it is really sealed up properly and then it's there always should you need it.

(BTW - Hope you didn't think I was thinking of you when I mentioned "... the unimaginative (or overly imaginative)" in the long note I wrote. Certainly NOT intended. )

As for me - the day may well come when I am stuck the wrong side of a river that wasn't so flooded when I went in - and can't get out. Maybe I'll wish I had fitted a snorkel on that day. Or not. ;)
Thanks Neil. Good advice I'll do those checks. I should never have taken that for granted (too trusting sometimes).
And no I didn't even imagine that.;).
Cheers Billy.

[Dave_S]

Eventually my 110 will have to make good as a remote area expedition vehicle. I can drain water out of things, dry out things and take all sorts of care where needed, but I can't rebuild an Isuzu diesel on a mud flat and I sure can't carry a spare. My snorkel is being made by APT as we speak.

[PAT303]

I found when travelling in the Tdi with it's Australian made Safari ''snorkel'' all it did was fill the air filter with crap,the TDCi with it's British made RAI leaves the filter clean.Snorkels/RAI whatever aren't all made equal. Pat

[Blade74]

Depends which head you use for the snorkel.
If you use the dome type head pre filter on the safari it runs a lot cleaner.

[Tote]

A couple of observations and experiences from my perspective.
The reason that I fitted a factory RAI to my Disco 3 was that on one occasion I was towed across a reasonably well running stream where there was a risk that the factory intake may have been covered by the water building on the upstream side. Using the straw with a hole in the side analogy above the Disco probably would have been fine with it's perforated intake pipe 50mm higher inside the guard but the fact that a Landcruiser towed me, engine off, across the creek firmed my resolve to get the RAI.

SWMBO's Wrangler has an AEV snorkel fitted and we were crossing the Macquarie river near Hill End with water no deeper than 250-300 mm and a splash went into the forward facing inlet. There ended up being 500ml of water in the sealed airbox and the filter element was soaked. We now run a Donaldson pre cleaner on the snorkel top and have solved that problem with the added benefit of keeping the filter element substantially cleaner. Doesn't look pretty but its certainly effective

Regards,

Tote

[HardCharger]

Since we're on the topic, which of these RAI / Snorkel heads are the best to use? You have the standard scoop type which is what comes with Safari, Air Tec, etc., then you have the mushroom heads which is what we Defender owners use and are used by a few cruisers as well, then we have those clear plastic bowls (some with filter, some without).

So which among them are the best to use?

The scoop type claims ram air effect but as was just stated, it can also dirty up a filter real quick.

The mushroom heads, they seem to work and have heard little feedback on them.

The clear bowl pops up every now and then and there seems to be even less feedback on them.

From the looks of things, the mushroom heads seem the go but what do all y'all think?

[Tote]

From my perspective the clear bowl ( donaldson) type are cheap at farm machinery suppliers. The downside is that the bowls go yellow very quickly but cost a small amount to replace.
Regards,
Tote

[PAT303]

Mantec is the best IMHO,Donaldson are cheap rubbish,they go hard and break within 12 months in direct sunlight. Pat

[Disco-tastic]

To illustrate the improvement with a well sealed RAI, I just took the ram head off my Safari snorkel, started my 2.2 engine at idle then blanked off the intake. The engine dropped revs immediately and I noticed the snorkel body began collapsing inwards where it covers the intake, so I had to stop.

That's a bit worrying. I had a 300Tdi with the safari snorkel (moulded plastic) and it would stall if you stuck your palm over the top of the intake (with the ram head off). Either they don't make them like they used to or the 2.2 sucks! (Literally)

If I was doing decent water crossings or driving dusty roads I would definitely have a snorkel. Peace of mind in water crossings, and the ability to have a 'pre' filrer in the snorkel head was great. They are easy to change if they get dirty.

Cheers

Dan

[karlz]

Since we're on the topic, which of these RAI / Snorkel heads are the best to use? ...

Thanks, I was sort of hoping this thread would turn into something like this.

Now, I do remember from the series 2 days, there was an oil bath that the "air" had to go thru.
Fun days

[noyakfat]

I'm not saying which is best or worst.

I've had:

* a 75 series land cruiser ute with the standard toyota snorkel - nil issues;
* an 80 series land cruiser ute with safari snorkel - nil issues;
* a GQ Nissan Patrol with safari snorkel - nil issues;
* my current tdci 2014 110 Defender with safari snorkel, standard ram head - nil issues, then changed to Syklone head - still nil issues.

All these vehicles were driven in very dusty off road conditions, and it does seem that the skylone head results in less dust being located in the air box filter material. (at least from my inspections anyway).

Ultimately it's up to you, of course :)