Another injury from an incorrectly used snatch strap

[Tote]

I don't know what the answer is to stop these incidents, maybe some better instructions on the straps or their packaging.

Flying tow strap hits teen in head after 4WD bogged in Castlereagh (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/flying-tow-strap-hits-teen-in-head-after-4wd-bogged-in-castlereagh-20150712-giaqlc.html)

Regards,
Tote

[87County]

Just saw it in the paper myself and thought .. oh no - not again....

We obviously hope he pulls through with a full recovery.

There are certain combinations of winch wire and/or snatch strap and shackles and/or towball which are just plain lethal. The hardware is available to anyone so I do not know how the injury rate can be reduced without massive coverage in the 4wd press.

I'm afraid that written instructions are not much assistance in a case where the gear is just broken out in the dark and used when deemed necessary.

This is one situation where only practical training (which will include graphic descriptions of potential injury) will have the required effect.

Some 4WD clubs attempt this but have club volunteer "trainers" that just do not have the appropriate skills unfortunately.

[disco gazza]

Thats why I heard an ambo with siren screaming went by my place around 2145 hrs last night.

I live down the road from where all these trails are.
Not surprised they went in there with all the rain that we've had over the last few months. Bog holes galore in there and very easy to get bogged.The water just sits there until it weather warms up or there is no rain for months.
The council has put up barriers to stop people getting into the areas,but people have just made other tracks to get in there.

Wonder if the cops will charge any of them for trespassing.

cheers

[Tote]

I'm doubtful that club members are usually the ones who get themselves into trouble, Certainly the club that I belong to is pretty strong on safe recoveries. I suspect that it is usually the people who get themselves an old 4wd and think that they are bulletproof that are the ones who take the risks and a large number of these people don't join clubs and benefit from any form of organised training.

Regards,
Tote

[87County]

I agree Tote, more 4wd-ers not in clubs than in them

[strangy]

I don't have an answer other than education.
Only a few weeks ago I pulled up someone close to the family about using the Snatch strap on a tow ball,
"Quote- yeah I know but I don't have time and can't be bothered to fit it properly"
I was ticked off as he had been correctly trained/educated, wasn't about to be overrun by hoards of carnivorous dinosaurs and had nothing better to do with his time than play in the scrub.

Education isn't enough for some and I suppose that's just the human condition.

[TerryO]

Seriously it is a not good enough if it's a case that many clubs don't do a proper job in instructing newbies on how to safely do a recovery.
I know that the Range Rover Club gives very good instruction on how to use snatch straps in a recovery situation and more importantly what not to do and what can go wrong if you use the wrong gear.

I also agree that proper written instructions should be supplied at the point of sale. This is not just good practise but potentially good commercial sense, a smart supplier could have a short instructive video playing in loop that shows what is the right way and the wrong way of doing a recovery and the potential outcomes if done wrong. For those potential purchasers that are inclined to take note and watch the video chances are they would purchase all of the correct gear which would make the supplier more money rather than just buying the cheapest recovery strap and a couple of cheap unrated shackles because they know no better.

There will always be those who say she will be right, I guess the trick is if your stuck don't let someone like that connect up your snatch strap.

[Tombie]

"She'll be right mate" - such a dangerous mindset.

And remember, "it is not recommended" to use the tow ball for recovery...
"It is not recommended" was recently debated by several people on here with regards to a manufacturer "not recommending" use of certain products on their vehicles.

People can be their own worst nightmare and these people are now living a very real nightmare either through lack of education (includes self education) on recovery, lack of patience or outright stupidity.

I hope the lad pulls through and they learn to be safer in everything they do moving forward.

[POD]

We obviously hope he pulls through with a full recovery.



Nice.

[POD]

Reading the article, it sounds unlikely to have been a towball as the object came through the back window and hit him in the back of the head, I'm the last one to assume any accuracy in media reporting but if that is true it's more likely a front recovery point failed on the stuck vehicle and the injured kid was doing the towing.

[Eevo]

Seriously it is a not good enough if it's a case that many clubs don't do a proper job in instructing newbies on how to safely do a recovery.

every club event i've been to has been fantastic with recovery and safety.

[TerryO]

Reading the article, it sounds unlikely to have been a towball as the object came through the back window and hit him in the back of the head, I'm the last one to assume any accuracy in media reporting but if that is true it's more likely a front recovery point failed on the stuck vehicle and the injured kid was doing the towing.



There is no point speculating what may or may not have broke, though, one thing is reasonable to speculate they must not have used a recovery dampener otherwise it would not have flown through the back window and struck him.

In nearly all cases it comes down to either not having the right gear or not bothering to use it or lack of knowledge. If you use the right gear correctly then there is little chance of it going wrong.

[AndyG]

Knowing that i don't know i have booked myself in for the following, I feel i have an obligation to protect myself and those around me as a newbie

I have had a quick chat with our senior trainer. He suggests the SISODRV302 Drive and Recover a 4WD vehicle would be an appropriate course for you. This covers:
Perform pre operational vehicle checks;
Change a wheel on a 4WD vehicle sited on uneven ground;
Stall/key start recovery downhill forward and reverse;
Implement minimal environmental impact practices;
Operate a 4WD vehicle competently in off-highway conditions,
including;
a) Up and down steep inclines;
b) correct range, gears and techniques;
c) through muddy terrain and ditches;
d) across side slope involving irregular terrain;
e) irregular sandy terrain;
f) through water; and
g) along dry and wet dirt roads.
Use a single Snatch Strap to recover a vehicle;
Operate a 4WD vehicle giving due regard to Occupational Health and Safety issues;
Knowledge and skills required to use a 4WD vehicle with due regard to environmental issues.

The cost of this course is $545 for up to x2 persons in the same vehicle on the same day. Alternately if this a booking for a single driver the cost will be $415. The course cost includes all course material and our glovebox size manual 'Getabout Training 4WD guide, Essential driving skills and recovery techniques'

[cuppabillytea]

I don't know much about Four Wheel Drive Recovery. I'v seen a fair bit of it on U tube though and it seems to me that there are a lot of people who think that if you connect two vehicles together with a snatch strap, then charge off at full clip in the recovery vehicle, you will have the best chance of success.
I hope no one ever expects me to do that. How do they calculate the forces on their gear? Have they never heard of Kinetic energy? If this is common practice, it is little wonder that people are being injured.
I do know this though: If i had ever done anything remotely like that when I was working in Marine Recovery, I would have been given a savage dressing down by anyone who witnessed it.

[VladTepes]

We know that energy is neither created or destroyed. In some cases potentially energy is converted to kinetic energy and then to stupidity.

[Eevo]

you connect two vehicles together with a snatch strap, then charge off at full clip in the recovery vehicle, you will have the best chance of success.

best change of success, yes
quickest, no
safest, no

sometimes the only way out is via snatch and as long as its done with rated recovery points, i see no harm.

[Tombie]

We know that energy is neither created or destroyed. In some cases potentially energy is converted to kinetic energy and then to stupidity.

Nearly...

Stupidity is converted into Kinetic energy then (sadly) Fatality or Injury...

[XDrive]

I am presently the only Four Wheel Drive Trainer in Australia, certified by the International Four Wheel Drive Trainers' Association and also hold the Master Tread Trainer certification from Tread Lightly.

I have undertaken many courses both here and overseas, Germany, UK and the USA.

The number of people who will spend large sums of money on purchasing a vehicle and equiping the vehicle with a vast array of accessories and then complain at the cost of a Four Wheel Drive course never ceases to amaze me.

The second most common question posed, 'I have owned a Four Wheel Drive for ... (insert any number) of years. What are you going to teach me?'

Owning a Four Wheel Drive and actually using a Four Wheel Drive are two very different scenarios. There are lots of people towing caravans, trailers and horse floats and boats, to name a few. Who use a Four Wheel Dive vehicle purely for the towing capacity and have no intention of ever taking the vehicle 'off-road'. This is entirely acceptable and is a choice of the consumer and user. However, owning and driving a Four Wheel Drive vehicle does not mean that the driver is capable of driving the vehicle 'off-road' with any consideration for his safety or that of the environment.

Unfortunately, 'youtube' does not have many videos of people doing the 'right thing' and lots and lots of people doing the wrong things. Which does not really help when it comes to educating people. Again lots of people will tell you how they saw something being done on 'youtube'.

Education is only part of the equation, drivers attitude, makes up the balance and in some cases is the more important part of the equation.

I undertake many training courses for vehicle manufacturers and dealerships and alhough there is merit in many of the features of modern vehicles, if you still do not understand the basics, you will at some point in time find yourself in strife. Modern vehicles allow more and more novice Four Wheel Drive, drivers to go further 'off-road' than older type vehicles with less electronic 'trickery' and this presents a real problem when these individuals do find themselves stuck, as in some cases it takes an expert to get the vehicle unstuck.

Recoveries are never the same and care should be taken to ensure that injuries are avoided and damage is kept to a minimum. Even one training course does not necessarily equip you with the skills to perform all recoveries and on-going training and practice are what is required. Which is one of the reasons why Emergency Services and Rescue personel are always undertaking training excercises, in order to hone skills and practice various different techniques.

I do hope that the individual injured, recovers, although a significant head impact/injury is always a considerable concern.

[cuppabillytea]

Thanks for that XDrive. Would you know the best trainer in the Sydney region?

[Tombie]

Keep in mind many clubs run accredited level training and it works out significantly cheaper some times...

[AndyG]

Thanks for that XDrive. Would you know the best trainer in the Sydney region?

I dont know about Best, but i was more than happy with their sand driving course i did earlier in the year (Getabout training). There is not a huge choice when you start to look. They also do work for JLR re training.

A book i am plodding through is Robert Pepper's 4WD Handbook, not as good as a course but a good start.

[Disco-tastic]

they must not have used a recovery dampener otherwise it would not have flown through the back window and struck him.

Just out of curiousity, how many people use a dampener at each end?

I remember recovering a mate and we had a dampener midway along the strap. His recovery point gave way and the shackle ended up beside the back of my disco (somehow it flung at an angle else it would have hit my rear bullbar or back door) since then ive intended to get a second dampener when I buy a new 4wd (I sadly sold my trusty D1 to save for a house!)

Almost everything I had been taught recommended a single dampener, though I do recall reading a recommendation on using two for this reason (was a while ago now though).

Cheers

Dan

[Disco-tastic]

I dont know about Best, but i was more than happy with their sand driving course i did earlier in the year (Getabout training). There is not a huge choice when you start to look. They also do work for JLR re training.

A book i am plodding through is Robert Pepper's 4WD Handbook, not as good as a course but a good start.

I have a mate who works for Getabout. He's always serious about safety off (and on) road. I've never been on their courses so can't comment on them.

He's a good bloke - he gave me a ride in a new Disco Sport that he had the "task" of running in before JLR training days. The downside is now I want another thing I can't afford! :rolleyes:

Cheers

Dan

[Tombie]

one thing is reasonable to speculate they must not have used a recovery dampener otherwise it would not have flown through the back window and


Even set up by the book if the snatch was too violent it can still recoil with a damper..

Although I tend to agree there wasn't one!

[l00kin4]

Saw this article this morning: Flying tow strap hits teen on head after 4WD bogged in Castlereagh (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/flying-tow-strap-hits-teen-on-head-after-4wd-bogged-in-castlereagh-20150713-giaqlc.html)

Sounds nasty. Hope the young bloke is alright.

You'd wonder if they tried to join straps (with something metal) or an unrated shackle or attachment point broke or what...

Assume no damper on the strap/s.

Reminded me of this old thread on another forum: How NOT to Snatch - 4WD Chat - Australia4WD Forum (http://forum.australia4wd.com/index.php?/topic/3297-how-not-to-snatch/?hl=kluger) Always remembered the indentations in the tailgate from the knurling on the socket handle - what an impact! Crazy dangerous stuff people do out there sometimes.

[Tombie]

Already a thread going.

[l00kin4]

Thanks Tombie. Missed that

[PAT303]

So can I ask where all of you snatch from?,for me I pull the goose neck and snatch from the retaining pin,thats the most secure spot IMHO,I also use a towl on the strap. Pat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

different subject Pat,;)
This ones too good to derail:cool:

[Bushie]

Education is only part of the equation, drivers attitude, makes up the balance and in some cases is the more important part of the equation.Probably the best statement so far in this thread.

At this point there are very few people that will know what actually happened, and I would suggest the injured party isn't one of them.
Whether the full truth will be revealed in any investigation is speculation at this point, as everyone will have their point of view, and depending on how diligent the investigator is, will determine how good the result is.

Training is only half the answer, after all airline pilots are some of the most highly trained and practiced people, but they still make mistakes, human factors play a huge role in outcomes, potentially turning an insignificant error into a catastrophe.



Martyn

[Dopey]

The Patrol in which the accident/occurrence happened was unregistered,
Just saw the pics of it on the news and punched in the rego number on the rego check app.

So no insurance, also as mentioned earlier in this thread, they were trespassing as well.

Mike.

[Bushie]

The Patrol in which the accident/occurrence happened was unregistered,
Just saw the pics of it on the news and punched in the rego number on the rego check app.

So no insurance, also as mentioned earlier in this thread, they were trespassing as well.

Mike.

And the bearing that may have on whether the recovery was executed correctly or not ??

Martyn

[Eevo]

And the bearing that may have on whether the recovery was executed correctly or not ??

Martyn

its says something about the attitude of the driver.

[Tank]

Pat, the best way to dampen recoil of either end of the strap is to make up 2 short (at least 2 metres) slings out of 1" dia. Nylon rope, one end spliced eye to each end of the strap. The other eye attached via small shackle or hook to a convenient point on each truck near to the recovery point.
If the strap recovery point or shackle is torn off the rope will restrict the heavy end, it works and only takes a minute to hook up.
Seems the most common breaking point is from the front bar or under the vehicle at the front.
I put this down to these rubbish bits of flat plate bolted to the side of the chassis rail with horizontal shackle pin holes.
These so called recovery points may be alright if being snatched from dead straight ahead, but if the tower is off to one side the shackle is pulled out of align, jambing the pin and making the shackle the weakest point in the setup. Always the snatch strap should be the weakest point.
Correct recovery points should have boxed in ends of chassis behind bull bar that you can screw a rated collared Eye Bolt into with the eye bolt holes in the vertical plane which allows the shackle to self align itself to the line of pull, only on this line is the shackle safe to use. Pulling a shackle to the side with it's pin jambed in the recovery point turns a shackle into the weakest point.
I have seen 3.5T SWL Shackle with a Guaranteed Breaking Strain (GBS) of 17.5T be totally destroyed by an 8T GBS snatch strap because it was used outside of it's design parameters by loading it off centre, Regards Frank.





So can I ask where all of you snatch from?,for me I pull the goose neck and snatch from the retaining pin,thats the most secure spot IMHO,I also use a towl on the strap. Pat

[Homestar]

Reading the article, it sounds unlikely to have been a towball as the object came through the back window and hit him in the back of the head, I'm the last one to assume any accuracy in media reporting but if that is true it's more likely a front recovery point failed on the stuck vehicle and the injured kid was doing the towing.

Channel 9 reported that it was a shackle that struck the young lad. I know we can all be quick to criticise and speculate, but we have all done dumb stuff when young and most of us got away with it, but not here. Hope he makes a full recovery, but apparently his injuries are severe. :(

[scarry]

A guy i knew a good few years ago didn't survive.

He was pulling his bogged,loaded, 130 with a tractor.

As said, often we did silly things when we were young…..

[cuppabillytea]

Tank has a very good set of points here. If you use a couple of slings or a bridle on each end of a snatch strap, then the direction of effort is toward the point where they join the snatch strap.Therefor any shackle or recovery point which fails will be projected toward that point and not toward anyone in or near a vehicle. It only means a bit of extra gear.
Tank you should take your ideas to recovery. This thread is not the place.

[Dopey]

And the bearing that may have on whether the recovery was executed correctly or not ??

Martyn

Maybe I should have posted my post in the "Threads that go off topic" thread...

Anyways, as Eevo said, "it says something about the attitude of the driver", he was trespassing while driving an unregistered and uninsured vehicle.

I guess until the police release their report into the matter, that what we "know" is just supposition, innuendo, and hearsay.....

I just posted fact, maybe a little off the topic, but nevertheless gives a bit of background info.

Regards,
Mike.

Oh, yes....
I hope the young fella comes out of this "mishap" without to much more than a sore head and a kick up the bum from the police for trespassing and driving an unregistered and uninsured vehicle and gets some training and proper equipment.

[cuppabillytea]

I was almost decapitated once, a long time ago, doing a trespass run. I had been looking to see if my mates had been watching my silly antics. I turned back in the nick of time to see the wire strung across the road and ducked. It brushed through my ample fuzzy mop.
I survived that and many other stupid, acts prior and following. Now here I am today, a reasonably responsible man with a nice Home and a lovely happy Family.
I hope we can one day say the same for that poor kid and he and his mates can one day tell their kids about the dangers of playing silly games in vehicles.

[EastFreo]

I have never used a snatch strap and only used a chain. I know the Kenetic energy will be useful but does anyone know if either is safer? Why has the chain fallen out of favour so badly?

[EastFreo]

Actually just noticed a good thread on here on the subject of chains. Looks like a case to me for both (and as always if properly used and cared for).

[cuppabillytea]

Chain being made of steel is more elastic than any rope or snatch strap. That means that the energy released will be more instantaneous end therefore a more violent reaction. Add to that the extra weight and hardness of steel and you end up with a far more cataclysmic event. That means more damage.
Then there is the sheer inconvenience of carrying the stuff around.

Cheers Billy

[newhue]

for me, if its more than a light to medium tug on a strap, than it's winch time. People, I think, are too quick to rely on a huge yank with a snatch to solve everything. A winch is slower, less stressful on all, and more predictable.

The use of a "flimsy" bag over any strap in a hope to stop it flying is rubbish, over rated and marketed. The use of a bag is fine, but they need to be weighted, and weighted a fair bit. Then be positioned 1/3 in from both vehicles, not at the half way. Of course with a winch being used than the bag is only required on the on the car being winched.

There is enough information out there in magazines and on forums about dumb snatching practices. Young men are 10ft tall, some get it, some don't. The only bit missing in that story is the they were drunk and stolen car. I don't know if it was like that, but would not surprise me.

[JDNSW]

Chain being made of steel is more elastic than any rope or snatch strap. That means that the energy released will be more instantaneous end therefore a more violent reaction. Add to that the extra weight and hardness of steel and you end up with a far more cataclysmic event. That means more damage.
Then there is the sheer inconvenience of carrying the stuff around.

Cheers Billy

No. Chain (or anything of steel for that matter) is far less elastic than a snatch strap, in the sense that the amount of elongation before failure is very small, so the energy stored per unit length is insignificant compared to a snatch strap. Most of the energy storage in a recovery situation with chain is potential energy by the weight of the chain being lifted off the ground.

In a light four wheel drive recovery situation the length of chain is short enough that negligible energy is stored elastically, and there are no serious repercussions if something breaks. (Other than the vehicle being recovered rolling back down the hill etc)

But because of the lack of elastic energy storage, chain cannot be used for snatch recovery. It can only be used for a steady pull, similar to what you would use for a winch. If you try a 'snatch' recovery, you can just about guarantee something will break.

John

[FeatherWeightDriver]

Sad story indeed, hope the fellow pulls though.

Interesting a number of news reports have mentioned the police have set this up as a crime scene - I wonder what charges they are looking at?

For what it is worth I found this list of things not to do as well. Best learn from the mistakes of others, as no-one has the time to make all the mistakes themselves.

20 things you should never do in a 4WD recovery (http://www.4wdingaustralia.com/4x4/20-things-you-should-never-do-in-a-4wd-recovery/)


Thanks for that XDrive. Would you know the best trainer in the Sydney region?

Cue the plug for Tim and Truski who do the training for the Sydney Land Rover Owners Club :angel:

[101 Ron]

Years ago before snatch straps we had less of this sort of thing.
Wire ropes were the danger if they broke during winching.
Snatch straps are dangerous for the reason the forces involved are uncontrolled and not as easily calculated as normal winching or pulling.
I personally lose track of the amount of times I have seen vehicles sitting on the diffs in a mud hole being snatched.
If winching the forces would be calculated something like weight of vehicle over two and then the dragging diffs would be calculated and then any slope in the pull with a 25 % safety factor and it all adds up to a far bit of pull to get the vehicle out.
But the force is known and catered for.
A snatch strap none of the above is known well and there is a extra force of the snatched vehicles acceleration from stop to its speed though the mud over a short period of time.
What I am saying snatch straps are good for light pulls if someone has loss traction and just needs a little bit of help to get moving again.
A snatch strap used for anything more is trouble .
Snatch straps are harder to estimate there condition when old or wet compared to a chain or wire rope.
How many broken snatch straps have you seen ?
Every broken snatch strap is a lack of understanding of forces and should not happen and not acceptable in the world of true vehicle recovery.
Shackels and recovery points have tremendous sudden strain placed on them with snatch straps which is hard to cater for unless there is a great amount of over build in the recovery point etc.
Snatch straps are over used and over promoted as a means of recovery by major retailers and magazines etc.
They are over used in the wrong applications as they are cheap and light weight to carry in the vehicle.

[cuppabillytea]

No. Chain (or anything of steel for that matter) is far less elastic than a snatch strap, in the sense that the amount of elongation before failure is very small, so the energy stored per unit length is insignificant compared to a snatch strap. Most of the energy storage in a recovery situation with chain is potential energy by the weight of the chain being lifted off the ground.

In a light four wheel drive recovery situation the length of chain is short enough that negligible energy is stored elastically, and there are no serious repercussions if something breaks. (Other than the vehicle being recovered rolling back down the hill etc)

But because of the lack of elastic energy storage, chain cannot be used for snatch recovery. It can only be used for a steady pull, similar to what you would use for a winch. If you try a 'snatch' recovery, you can just about guarantee something will break.

John
Go and got a steel ball baring and a plastic ball. Drop them from the same hight on to steel bench or some other unforgiving surface and see which bounces the highest. Steel is far more elastic than any plastic I've ever heard of. Elasticity being the ability of a material to return to its original shape. Don't kid yourself the length of stretch has anything at all to do with it. For the same energy and mass the energy release is much more sudden and therefore faster. I stand by my original post and beg you to do some research for your own sake.
Cheers Billy.

[BMKal]

Elasticity is the ability of a material to return to its original shape after it has been deformed.

If you deform a lump of steel - it will not return to its original shape. Steel is virtually NOT elastic at all. ;)

The fact that a steel ball will bounce higher than a plastic ball in the example given above is simply because the steel is more stiff or rigid and does NOT deform as much, and therefore cannot absorb the energy of the impact. The energy has to go somewhere - so the ball will bounce higher (under the right circumstances, such as the material being "bounced off" being of equal stiffness and also not able to absorb the energy of the impact).

In technical terms - the lower the elasticity of a material, the higher the "Young's Modulus" for that material. A stiff material needs more force to deform compared to a soft material. Therefore, the Young's modulus is a measure of the stiffness of a solid material.

The Young's Modulus for steel is about 200 GPa, for rubber about 0.1 GPa and for materials like polypropylene / nylon etc, about 2 GPa.

[Redback]

Why is chain being mentioned here as an alternative to this type of recovery, you can't use steel chain in a snatch recovery, simple as that.

I really hope he recovers and I especially hope his mates that were there helping, learn from this.

Baz.

[cuppabillytea]

I shouldn't have to do this. It's really off topic, but for your edification:

[Mick_Marsh]

I shouldn't have to do this. It's really off topic, but for your edification:
Thanks for that link. It confirms what this fellow says:

Elasticity is the ability of a material to return to its original shape after it has been deformed.

If you deform a lump of steel - it will not return to its original shape. Steel is virtually NOT elastic at all. ;)

The fact that a steel ball will bounce higher than a plastic ball in the example given above is simply because the steel is more stiff or rigid and does NOT deform as much, and therefore cannot absorb the energy of the impact. The energy has to go somewhere - so the ball will bounce higher (under the right circumstances, such as the material being "bounced off" being of equal stiffness and also not able to absorb the energy of the impact).

In technical terms - the lower the elasticity of a material, the higher the "Young's Modulus" for that material. A stiff material needs more force to deform compared to a soft material. Therefore, the Young's modulus is a measure of the stiffness of a solid material.

The Young's Modulus for steel is about 200 GPa, for rubber about 0.1 GPa and for materials like polypropylene / nylon etc, about 2 GPa.

[d2dave]

I don't care how much longer it takes, I will always use my winch over a snatch it there is an object to attach the cable to.

However the winch is only good for a forward pull and from what I have read the vehicle in the case being discussed was being pulled out backwards,
same scenario as the one in Tassie a few years back where someone was killed.

[wardy1]

I'm doubtful that club members are usually the ones who get themselves into trouble, Certainly the club that I belong to is pretty strong on safe recoveries. I suspect that it is usually the people who get themselves an old 4wd and think that they are bulletproof that are the ones who take the risks and a large number of these people don't join clubs and benefit from any form of organised training.

Regards,
Tote

I am not a member of any 4wd club. I have been, but got sick of the politicking and left.

The majority of 4wders choose not to be in clubs and that is their right. I do agree however that there needs to be something done to educate newcomers to 4wding in the do's and don'ts of recovery.

I'm really not sure how this can be instituted or enforced, but membership of a club is not the entire answer imho.

[cuppabillytea]

My apologies to all. I Have just discussed this subject with my Brother who is an Engineer and he confirms that JDNSW is correct. Although steel will return to to its original shape more quickly, it can only deform to a tiny distance and so cannot store as much energy. Further to that he has pointed out that a chain has a much greater mass and therefor will be harder for the stored energy to move.
So once again I apologise and hope that those who started reading this discussion are still reading. I will endeavour not to go off half cocked again.
Cheers Billy.

[p38arover]

I was at ARB Penrith today (the incident happened in the Penrith City Council area) and the ARB chap said he'd been told they didn't use a rated recovery point but a towing point.

All hearsay at this time. I'll check this week's local papers for any stories.

I have chains and a snatch strap. Many years ago when I was very green (not much has changed) I attempted a snatch recovery using techniques taught when I did a recovery course with the Land Cruiser club (I was a 55 Series LC owner back then). I attempted to recover the 55 with my first Rangie.

I took a long run to get up speed as we'd been shown and the strap snapped. Fortunately just the strap.

I called my B-I-L and he came out with his GQ Patrol and just gently pulled the 55 out. No snatching required. Had I approached it in the same way with the Rangie, I'd have got the 55 out, too. I don't think I've used a snatch strap since.

[weeds]

Anybody catch The Project tonight, even the professional get it wrong as they hooked up the probably the weakest point on the dual can ute.

[Tote]

I am not a member of any 4wd club. I have been, but got sick of the politicking and left.

The majority of 4wders choose not to be in clubs and that is their right. I do agree however that there needs to be something done to educate newcomers to 4wding in the do's and don'ts of recovery.

I'm really not sure how this can be instituted or enforced, but membership of a club is not the entire answer imho.

The reason I joined a club many years ago was to get experience and training, I agree that people shouldnt have to join a club, that sort of regulation does not achieve anything. Maybe just attaching some detailed instructions to the snatch strap as a sewn on piece of fabric would help. Snatch straps get used as they are the fastest way to get a vehicle recovered and on its way, people don't like using shovels if they percieve that they don't have to and novice 4wd enthusiasts often don't have the money for a winch.

Regards,
Tote

[loneranger]

Snatch straps get used as they are the fastest way to get a vehicle recovered and on its way, people don't like using shovels if they percieve that they don't have to and novice 4wd enthusiasts often don't have the money for a winch.

Regards,
Tote

I don't have a winch or a snatch strap but I do have a shovel and a willingness to use it. I did a 4wd course and they did a snatch recovery using our vehicle as the bogged vehicle. It was professionally done and we were all instructed on the way to set-up a snatch recovery but for me when you read about stories like the one in this thread things can and do go wrong.

I also generally travel solo so I need to be able to recover myself and if I'm recovering a strangers vehicle I don't know the state of it or how robust their recovery points are so I'm not prepared to do it.

When our son got his ute bogged at Christmas in Denmark it took us about 2 hours and a lot of digging to get it off the beach but we did it so its not impossible if your prepared to do the work.

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
When you go out with a club or an organised 4wd event you are much more likely to abide by the rules and use gear as it was designed to be used. the Police report says the guys were trespassing on private property and became bogged.

When you are in a place you are not supposed to be and potentially breaking the law this places additional stresses on the people involved, not to mention any gear they can find to get themselves out of the situation they are in.

I very much doubt at the time they became bogged did the difference between a tow point and a recovery point really matter, all they wanted to do was get out as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately someone got injured, not only that but this stretches out to families who will no doubt be concerned for their loved ones, add to that more than likely they didn't know where they were or what they were up to.

They put pictures of "munted" lungs and other various internal organs on cigarette packets, doesn't stop people smoking, might think about the consequences for a poofteeth of a second and then light up.

I hope the young man pulls through, I feel for the parents.

[Simon]

Don't watch the vid link in the "20 things not to do" article if you are eating, not pretty.

Not (yet) had to do a big recovery, but have been on a training course in anticipation - hope it's not a case of a little knowledge makes more danger; certainly made me look to the shovel first and leave the kinetics to last.

Hope he comes right, and is able to pass on the wisdom of a tough lesson

[XDrive]

As has been stated previously, any recovery should start with a thorough examination of the situation and the surroundings. This is then followed by the 'self recovery' techniques. Self recovery is as is stated, you recovery yourself. That is by digging, jacking, using Maxtrax or other similar devices.

If these methods all result in the vehicle not being recovered, then you can move on to other 'mechanical' means, such as a winch, either hand or electric or a kinetic recovery rope or strap.

The advantage is, that when you come to use a winch, you have 'lessened' the load on the winch through your own self recovery attempts. If for example you have a mound of sand in front of your tyres and you dig this out and shape it to make it into a 'ramp', you may still not be able to drive out, but the force or effort required by the winch is less. again, in the example, it may require 5t of pulling force to recover a vehicle initially. After digging and shaping, the force required may only be 1t. This has the effect of making the recovery safer, less energy required and two, less stress on equipment.

Unforunately, snatch straps have been marketed and sold as an easy solution. There is a reason why more and more companies are reluctant to let their staff use snatch straps, some even going so far as to ban them from their sites. The army does not use a snatch strap as a recovery method.

It is very hard to calculate the 'shock' load, exerted by a snatch type recovery as every situation is different. Snatch straps are also affected by being wet and this can severly limit the load required for the strap to break. The strap is designed to be the 'weak' link in the recovery situation, however, with a 'shock' load, other components are also severly impacted and can fail.

I have often mentioned in our courses that when people get everything wrong and then throw a dampner over components, thinking that this will magically make it alright, we can appreciate the idiom 'on a wing and a prayer'. Again Dampners have been marketed as a magic solution to get you out of trouble, when you do not know what you are doing.

A 'kinetic recovery' rope or strap when used correctly for the correct application should take a similar amount of time to set up and use as self recovery or winching. Provided no short cuts are taken. Unfortunately these devices are sold as a 'quick and easy' method of recovery and there is no such thing in existence that is either quick or easy. Simply put, shortcuts are taken in most snatch' recoveries and although again in most situations people are lucky enough to get away without injury or damage, they simply do not understand or comprhend what they have done. Therefore the mistakes are compounded over and over again, until at some point, someone is injured.

The key to any recovery situation is in your head. Use it wisely.

[JDNSW]

While I do believe that it is possible to do kinetic recovery safely, having what I think is a thorough understanding of the physics and material properties involved, the whole concept scares me - and I have used four wheel drives and conducted winch and simple pull recoveries for over fifty years.

John

[loneranger]

While I do believe that it is possible to do kinetic recovery safely, having what I think is a thorough understanding of the physics and material properties involved, the whole concept scares me - and I have used four wheel drives and conducted winch and simple pull recoveries for over fifty years.

John

I don't have your experience but its my understanding of the physics that scares me.

[weeds]

I think short cuts are taken with all types of recoveries........

Yes clubs are good......have been a member of two over the last 20 years......but clubs even get caught up in the situation and take short cuts or don't follow there own rules.

I will always carry a snatch strap, I think it is a quick and easy recovery tool

I have driven away from a few beach recoveries as the vehicle stuck wasn't prepared to learn........most time I didn't even get to discussing a snatch, just asking them what tyres pressures they are running and if they are will to adjust sets the seen pretty quick

I did help a young group (mid/late 20's) that got stuck in sand about six meters from my campsite site........I was breaking my neck to use my max trax.....hang would have been a borrowed set. They were very embarrassed considering they were nearly in my kitchen but they were happy to lower tyre pressures and were impressed with the max trax, i also gave them tips on sand driving. These guys thought they had a 4WD and everybody does a beach run so off they went, they had managed to get around all day without issue.

[p38arover]

Report in today's local paper attached.

At 17-yo, he wouldn't have the years of 4WD experience. We've all done silly or unfortunate things in our youth. I hope he recovers fully.

[p38arover]

I did help a young group (mid/late 20's) that got stuck in sand about six meters from my campsite site........was breaking my neck to use my max trax.....hang would have been a borrowed set. They were very embarrassed considering they were nearly in my kitchen but they were leader to lower tyre pressures, were impressed with the max trax, i also gave them tips on sand driving.

:confused:

Umm, please clarify, Kelvin.

[Tombie]

The reason I joined a club many years ago was to get experience and training, I agree that people shouldnt have to join a club, that sort of regulation does not achieve anything. Maybe just attaching some detailed instructions to the snatch strap as a sewn on piece of fabric would help. Snatch straps get used as they are the fastest way to get a vehicle recovered and on its way, people don't like using shovels if they percieve that they don't have to and novice 4wd enthusiasts often don't have the money for a winch.

Regards,
Tote

Can you, Hand-on-heart, say you sat and read the Vehicle Handbook for your vehicle before use? Or the Washing and Care instructions for each item of clothing you own? Or the full terms and conditions of the last piece of software you installed?

I doubt it...

A huge warning sticker on the packet MAY draw some attention, but likely to not be heeded too much...

[Tote]

Scarily I did read the manual for the Disco from Cover to cover when I got it and will probably do the same for the Defender when it arrives....

What I was thinking of was a large tag sewn to each end of the snatch strap with some basic instructions on how to use it safely, they have legislated putting the load limits etc on the straps I reckon some basic instructions may be of some use. The other suggestions that get bandied about like banning straps and having a licence to purchase one are not practical to implement and a waste of time.

You can't stop people doing silly things easily but in the club training that I have conducted there are many people without 4wd experience who are genuinely surprised when they are told that dropping a strap over a towball is a bad idea.

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

Or the Washing and Care instructions for each item of clothing you own?


haha, i do. i feel so guilty now.

[flagg]

Attitude has been brought up a few times, and I agree but I think also that people panic and the adrenalin affects their decision making too.

Maybe I'm lucky but I've seldom been in a hurry when I've been stuck.. but people seem to get it in their head that that to get it out really quickly. I know when you are in a river the water can stuff things up etc but just taking the time to settle down, work out a plan etc lowers the risk of a stuff up so much.

When I get stuck I make a cup of tea or at least sit down, outside of the 110 and eat something or just relax for a bit. At first my mates thought I was a nutter but once we did it they understood the benefits.

Hard to tell if it would have helped this poor kid or not though :(

[PhilipA]

I had a wry laugh seeing the front end loader pull it out on TV with apparently the handbrake on and in gear as the wheels just slid.

Even the experts seem to miss the simplest things.

Regards Philip A
BTW Did you note that the screen was also broken from inside, so the strap and shackle must have had a LOT of momentum to continue to the screen.

[cuppabillytea]

I have seen highly educated, highly qualified and highly experienced people, succumb to the pressures of time, money, frustration, peers, and fatigue, with dramatic consequences. Most of these were harmless some were injurious and two were fatal, although fortunately for me I had left the seen before those two happened and didn't have to witness it. It still hurt though.
So what chance does a 17 year old kid playing silly buggers have?

[rick130]

haha, i do. i feel so guilty now.

Hehehe, ditto. :D

We're allowed one or two OCD tendencies without it becoming an issue. :angel:

[Tank]

Quote: "They put pictures of "munted" lungs and other various internal organs on cigarette packets, doesn't stop people smoking"


It does work, IF combined with a little bit of "Commonsense" which sadly seems to be lacking, esp. when it comes to 4WD recovery, Regards Frank.









Hi There,
When you go out with a club or an organised 4wd event you are much more likely to abide by the rules and use gear as it was designed to be used. the Police report says the guys were trespassing on private property and became bogged.

When you are in a place you are not supposed to be and potentially breaking the law this places additional stresses on the people involved, not to mention any gear they can find to get themselves out of the situation they are in.

I very much doubt at the time they became bogged did the difference between a tow point and a recovery point really matter, all they wanted to do was get out as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately someone got injured, not only that but this stretches out to families who will no doubt be concerned for their loved ones, add to that more than likely they didn't know where they were or what they were up to.

They put pictures of "munted" lungs and other various internal organs on cigarette packets, doesn't stop people smoking, might think about the consequences for a poofteeth of a second and then light up.

I hope the young man pulls through, I feel for the parents.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

what hope do kids have when the current (bronze) Isuzu add see's a most rapid take off to snatch someone??

[cuppabillytea]

what hope do kids have when the current (bronze) Isuzu add see's a most rapid take off to snatch someone??
Exactly. Yet those who profit from airing that add, would be the first to criticise someone who might cause harm by doing the same thing.

[AndyG]

And this is why you should always check out the mother before you marry the daughter :wasntme::angel:

[cuppabillytea]

Good advice........too late:wasntme:either:angel:

[d2dave]

Hehehe, ditto. :D

We're allowed one or two OCD tendencies without it becoming an issue. :angel:

CDO, it has to be in order:) (the smilee face has gone on a diet. It has shrunk)

[AndyG]

I have seen highly educated, highly qualified and highly experienced people, succumb to the pressures of time, money, frustration, peers, and fatigue, with dramatic consequences

Like for Example the pilot in Taiwan who shut down the wrong engine, or the one in Png who put them in reverse before he landed.

[JDNSW]

Like for Example the pilot in Taiwan who shut down the wrong engine,.....

Not the only time that has happened - was it Manchester?

John

[AndyG]

Yes, that was one.
I read a text on aviation accidents once, they all showed a sequence of errors that accumulated. None just happened. Most common reason was fatigue, but why did the fatigue occur, Peter Brock, another example.

[scarry]

Years ago a mate of mine was killed,he climbed the wrong ladder.

He was a linesman,they had just finished their lunch break.

Fatigue was a major cause in this accident.

Today the incident wouldn't happen as they use an EWP not a ladder.

In my opinion,fatigue and distractions are the major cause of the majority of all vehicle accidents.This includes very minor incidents also,not just injury and death related incidents.

Lack of experience is also an issue,but mainly in the younger drivers.

[JDNSW]

Years ago a mate of mine was killed,he climbed the wrong ladder.

He was a linesman,they had just finished their lunch break.

Fatigue was a major cause in this accident.

Today the incident wouldn't happen as they use an EWP not a ladder.

In my opinion,fatigue and distractions are the major cause of the majority of all vehicle accidents.This includes very minor incidents also,not just injury and death related incidents.

Lack of experience is also an issue,but mainly in the younger drivers.

Very few accidents have a single or even a single major cause. While fatigue is a significant factor in at least some motor vehicle accidents, by far the most common factor in fatal accidents (which are the only class of accident that is always fully investigated) is alcohol. Together with this factor you can expect a variety of other factors, including speed, fatigue, peer pressure, road defects, distractions, weather, time of day, etc, etc.

John

[boa]

Very few accidents have a single or even a single major cause. While fatigue is a significant factor in at least some motor vehicle accidents, by far the most common factor in fatal accidents (which are the only class of accident that is always fully investigated) is alcohol. Together with this factor you can expect a variety of other factors, including speed, fatigue, peer pressure, road defects, distractions, weather, time of day, etc, etc.

John

Is this an opinion or a fact?. Not sure of you sources?. As stated there are many reasons incidents happen. The word accident is an easy escape for people to not take responsibility for what happened. Why single out one possible cause?

[Disco Muppet]

According to this...

Crash behavioural factors - Statistics - NSW Centre for Road Safety (http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/statistics/crashbehaviouralfactors.html)

Speed is the biggest killer, causing twice as many deaths as fatigue, or alcohol.
Now it does say that in accidents where both speed and alcohol factors are present, they're added to both columns.
That said, I'm skeptical. It may be that old mate looks down at the cigarette he just dropped in his crotch, speed creeps up to 120 and he crosses the road into a tree.
Thus, speed related accident

[Eevo]

when the SA govt brought out of the cause of road crash death stats a few years ago, only 4% was due to excess speed and 40% was inattention.

[cuppabillytea]

According to this...

Crash behavioural factors - Statistics - NSW Centre for Road Safety (http://roadsafety.transport.nsw.gov.au/statistics/crashbehaviouralfactors.html)

Speed is the biggest killer, causing twice as many deaths as fatigue, or alcohol.
Now it does say that in accidents where both speed and alcohol factors are present, they're added to both columns.
That said, I'm skeptical. It may be that old mate looks down at the cigarette he just dropped in his crotch, speed creeps up to 120 and he crosses the road into a tree.
Thus, speed related accident
Now you're thinking. It is impossible to do scientific study of something as random as motor vehicle accidents, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It does mean though, that you can't make blanket statements about any accident.

[mikehzz]

If everyone drove at 20kph then there would hardly be any accidents at all. You could be as inattentive as you like and run straight into a tree and only dent your fender. It's the speed that actually kills you, there's no getting around it.

[Eevo]

If everyone drove at 20kph then there would hardly be any accidents at all. .
accidents would still occur.
but less would be fatal.

[scarry]

accidents would still occur.
but less would be fatal.

And travelling at 20ks everywhere many would probably fall asleep at the wheel:angel:

[mikehzz]

My point was that people don't seem to realise that it is the speed that kills most of the time no matter what the cause of the accident. This includes the speed of a shackle fired by a broken strap. If the snatch is more gentle, the potential for damage is greatly reduced. It's not a linear relationship either, a little less gives a far better safety result.

[bob10]

Fatigue is a factor. Some years ago, we used to travel to Sydney each year, to visit my wife's folks. One time, just over the border, where the road had a concrete surface [ I think ] I fell asleep. And went into a dream, where in that dream, I was driving in a straight line, it was so real. The only thing that saved us, was when I hit a post on the side of the road, and woke up. Just before a right hand corner. I had worked some 12 hour days before travel, and did not have enough sleep. Lesson learned. Bob

[JDNSW]

Is this an opinion or a fact?. Not sure of you sources?. As stated there are many reasons incidents happen. The word accident is an easy escape for people to not take responsibility for what happened. Why single out one possible cause?


If you look at reported 'success' rates for random breath testing, the proportion of drivers above the legal limit is invariably below 1%, usually well below. (And these 'random' campaigns are often not random, but deliberately target times and places where affected drivers are more likely).

If we then compare reported rates drivers involved in fatal accidents being above the legal limit, various reported rates are invariably above 20%. And these are not random - testing of all drivers involved in fatal accidents is mandatory.

Comparison of these two figures shows that alcohol affected drivers are at least 2,000% more likely to be involved in a fatal accident than unaffected drivers. No other accident factor can realistically be shown to be as frequently involved, mainly because the data is clearly incomplete.

Far from singling out one possible cause, I pointed out that all accidents have multiple factors. There is no single cause to any accident, but multiple factors.

In reality, it is impossible for most accidents to accurately identify all the factors involved, but the one I singled out is one that can be identified in many. Another factor that is easy to identify is road conditions - a simple comparison of accident rates on freeways compared to undivided roads illustrates this, and it is easy to see (but difficult to quantify) that differences in road construction will also have an effect.

To take a real life example - today I drove along the Mitchell Hwy between Dubbo and Wellington, and noted the location of a fatal accident on that road a couple of days ago. One obvious factor in the accident is that it occurred after police attempted to stop the car (not published why, could have been a traffic infringement, stolen car, unregistered car, car used in another offence etc). In this circumstance it is reasonable to assume that speed was also a factor (speed limit there is 110). Judging from arrests in similar circumstances, there is a high probability that the driver was under the influence of one or more drugs (including alcohol), another possible factor. The road has a slight RH bend, but with no sign, no barrier on the outside of the bend - and a very substantial pole (carrying an overhead stay to the power line along the road) about five metres from the road, which the car hit. So road conditions were clearly a factor. Given the weather at the time it is just possible there was ice on the road, or it may have just been wet. Another possible factor.

The word 'accident' is only an escape from responsibility for those unfamiliar with the meaning of the word - which simply means something unintended. (An unknown number may well be actually intended, and these really are not accidents)

However, regardless of the factors involved in an accident, the primary responsibility for the accident, as with, for example, a ship or an aeroplane, remains with the person in control, the driver. Certainly, there will be cases where it is clear that another person, often the driver of another vehicle, has equal or perhaps greater responsibility. (and I emphasise that I am not talking about legal responsibility - that depends on the law, not real life).

A bit long winded, but I hope this has made my views clearer.

John

[JDNSW]

According to this...
......

As I pointed out above, no accident has a single cause, and almost no accidents are thoroughly investigated. The attributions that form the basis of these tables come from the police reports, and really are little more tha informed opinions.

Speed rates a frequentmention because it is something that can be measured or calculated from skid marks etc. And, in the sense that in an accident, the greater the speed, the greater the likliehood of injury or death - but this does not necessarily mean that speed is a factor in the accident happening.

John

[Eevo]

but this does not necessarily mean that speed is a factor in the accident happening.

i wish more people would realise this.

[cuppabillytea]

Amen.

[mikehzz]

Except it isn't possible to have an accident if no speed is involved.

[JDNSW]

Except it isn't possible to have an accident if no speed is involved.

Difficult, but can probably be managed. Depends how you define a motor vehicle accident.

For example, there is the whole range of two vehicle accidents where one vehicle is stopped. Then there are accidents with single stationary vehicles, including those who manage to kill themselves with vehicles falling off jacks, and cars that catch fire while stopped for various reasons.

John

[cuppabillytea]

Too true JDNSW. There are the Factors which cause an incident and those which determine the outcome.

[mudmouse]

It's not so much the collision that's a 'concern' it's the death or serious injury. All road safety bodies (including Police) accept it will happen. It's accepted the State road toll will never go below about 300 per annum. If they can reduce the deaths, and from a social bottom line, the serious injury (cost of rehab, insurance, litigation) they'll be happier. That's why speed, seat belts, fatigue and distraction is the focus.

It'll always come back to economics - the real cause for every collision is too time consuming to identify. Find a common factor, sell it as the cause of death/injury, and that'll do. Otherwise it's too academic for the public to accept.

Matt

[mikehzz]

Difficult, but can probably be managed. Depends how you define a motor vehicle accident.

For example, there is the whole range of two vehicle accidents where one vehicle is stopped. Then there are accidents with single stationary vehicles, including those who manage to kill themselves with vehicles falling off jacks, and cars that catch fire while stopped for various reasons.

John

If I was sitting in a parked car and wet my pants?

[AndyG]

Difficult, but can probably be managed. Depends how you define a motor vehicle accident.

For example, there is the whole range of two vehicle accidents where one vehicle is stopped. Then there are accidents with single stationary vehicles, including those who manage to kill themselves with vehicles falling off jacks, and cars that catch fire while stopped for various reasons.

John

And back to the OP, incorrectly recovered vehicles

[mick88]

My apologies to all. I Have just discussed this subject with my Brother who is an Engineer and he confirms that JDNSW is correct. Although steel will return to to its original shape more quickly, it can only deform to a tiny distance and so cannot store as much energy. Further to that he has pointed out that a chain has a much greater mass and therefor will be harder for the stored energy to move.
So once again I apologise and hope that those who started reading this discussion are still reading. I will endeavour not to go off half cocked again.
Cheers Billy.


Possibly why they don't make "golf balls" out of steel!

[cuppabillytea]

Possibly why they don't make "golf balls" out of steel!
I'm sure there are many reasons why they don't make golf balls out of steel. That wouldn't be one of them.

[mudmouse]

Ha.

It has to include the act of driving - that is, a person (driver) putting, or attempting to put a vehicle in motion.

Matt

[Disco Muppet]

What about putting a giant wooden badger in motion?

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

Would that be the 3 Metre Iron bark Badger or the 10 Metre Balsa Badger and what size is it's freckle?

[mudmouse]

What about putting a giant wooden badger in motion?

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

Do you mean as to 'drive' it...?

:)

[Disco Muppet]

I don't know, I think it's probably a cultural thing. The French fling them from catapults.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

I don't know, I think it's probably a cultural thing. The French fling them from catapults.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app
Well you should be more careful. They also eat frog's legs. How would you propel yourself after an event such as that?