D4 2009 TDV6 3.0 - Engine Seized

[ThrowawayFool]

Would really appreciate some help....


I have had the D4 for a bit over 2.5yrs, have had the oil changed at the same mechanic that entire time, every 12000km. I got it at around 42000km, and it has now done around 112000km.


While driving on the highway earlier this week at 110km/h, I felt a slight judder, similar to what I have felt when having bad petrol in another car. I looked at the dash for any warnings, saw nothing and started to slow down anyway.


Within 30 seconds, there was another judder, a bit stronger this time, and the engine stopped. The battery warning light obviously came on at this point, but nothing else. I coasted to a stop on the side of the road.


After shutting everything off, I let it sit for about 30 secs and then tried to restart it. Electrics working, but although I could hear clicking noise the starter did not kick in.


I ended up getting towed, and once back with my mechanic, they informed me that the crank has seized solid in the engine. They have drained the oil which was excessively burnt with the toxic fumes that go with that.


When checking the computer, the only error code was for oil temp too high.


I asked them what oil they have been using for the six oil changes they have done, they confirmed was Valvoline MST C4 5W-30. They have been adding 6litres each time.


Based on what I have been able to find, it seems that they should have been using the Valvoline ENV C1 5W-30 oil, and should add only 5.9litres.


So I have a few questions I am hoping someone can help me with;


Is it reasonable for me to think that the combination of wrong oil and too much could create enough ash residue over a couple of years to prevent oil flowing as it should, seizing the engine?


If that is the case, what we be looking for when stripping the engine?


What other possibilities could explain the catastrophic failure?


Why didn't the computer identify something wrong and warn me in some way?


Thanks in advance,


John

[Graeme]

There seems to be quite a difference in viscosity specs between the oil used and Castrol Edge Professional C1 5W-30 (one recommended by LR) and that the Valvoline oil doesn't seem to state that it meets LR's Ford specs. I suggest that you get professional advice on the difference in specs.

[Nomad9]

Hi John,
The first shudder would have been a partial seizure, the second was obviously the end. I would think you would have to wait until the engine is stripped to define the root cause, the seizure could be the crank, could also be one or more pistons in one or more bores, same outcome. The pistons seizing could well have also given you some different symptoms............I would be looking at the crankshaft.

Personally I don't believe that if you have 5.9 or 6.0 litres of oil in the engine that this would be the cause of the engine seizure. Grade and viscosity of the oil are very important. However I would think there is more at play here.

Based on what you talk about I would be heading towards a crank problem, possibly a spun shell. When you take off the sump you would be looking for anything that has turned a shade of blue. Depending on which shell has turned blue and where that is in relationship to oil feed will tell you which bearing caused the problem. If a shell has spun this will block the oil feed to the bearing resulting a rapid rise in temperature and melting of metal components.

It is very hard to guess where the problem is until you start stripping the engine. Looking at the manual you can take the sump pan off with the engine in situ undoing the 14 sump bolts. You might be able to see something looking up with a good light. I don't know I have never taken one off so I can't tell you what you would see.

That's where I would start. I would think that something has given way, I doubt that the oil grade and or viscosity would be the primary cause unless your mechanic had done something very wrong.

I might be stepping out here a bit, however if you look at the viscosity charts and the ambient temperature conditions it is perfectly viable to run a 10W-40 oil. And I have done with no adverse effects that I am aware of. Typically though I run the 5W-30 oil.

I would also collect the old oil when you drain it out looking for any evidence of "bad news", see how much you get out. Taking the sump pan off you never know you might find evidence in the bottom.

[Graeme]

If a bearing has spun then it needed a reason to do so. LR issued a bulletin regarding incorrect oil usage. I really doubt that an extra 100 ml is significant though.

Reference: SSM49357

Models: Discovery 4/Range Rover Sport

Title: 3.0 TDV6 Engine Oil

Category: Engine

Last modified: 10-May-2011 00:00:00

Symptom; 401000 Oil System Concerns

Content

Issue: Clarification on engine oil specification applicable to 3.0 TDV6 derivatives.

Cause: Incorrect engine oil specification being used in some Markets.



Action:

The engine oil used in 3.0 TDV6 must be to specification WSS-M2C934B (ACEA A5/B5/C1). Land Rover recommends Castrol Professional Powerflow C1 5W-30 especially for vehicles fitted with DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) as this engine oil is specially formulated to minimize ash build up.

For non DPF vehicles ONLY, engine oil to specification WSS-MSC913B (ACEA A1/B1) may be used. Land Rover recommends Castrol SLX Professional C1 5W-30. It is permitted to use an alternative to Castrol as long as the specification stated above is met. The grade of oil used must be 5W-30, there can be no deviation from this viscosity. Failure to use a 5W-30 viscosity engine oil meeting the above stated specification will have a significant effect on the bearing shells which may cause irreparable damage to the engine.

NOTE - It is imperative that when the engine oil is drained from the sump during routine service work and replaced, the correct amount of engine oil is added to the engine as follows - 3.0 TDV6 Engine oil service fill with oil filter change 5.9 litres ? Maximum. Therefore it is essential the correct amount of engine oil is measured prior to filling.

Failure to follow the above instruction will compromise the engine breather system, potentially resulting in oil pull-over and subsequent engine damage

[Nomad9]

Hi Graeme,
Right............thank you. Not having owned a D4 as yet I haven't come across this issue, just working on the practicalities of running the older TDV6 and the V6 petrol. Thanks for the bulletin.

[Graeme]

The datasheet for the oil that was used is below. There are several points that caught my attention that would cause me to steer well clear of it except for the specific engines noted.
96475

[ThrowawayFool]

The datasheet for the oil that was used is below. There are several points that caught my attention that would cause me to steer well clear of it except for the specific engines noted.
96475



Thanks for that info Graeme, very helpful.


Today the mechanic has confirmed that the crankshaft is solid in the block.


As suggested, I have asked that they remove the oil pump and sump to review the condition of the bottom end - hopefully I will get some feedback on this tomorrow.


On another note, the mechanic is now claiming that they actually used the Synpower FE, which is A5/B5 rated, but not C1. Looking at the Valvoline website, the clear recommendation is the ENV C1 (given mine is a MY2010).


It would be great if you could please provide me with that same datasheet for the FE and ENV C1 oil - I tried to find the same on the website, but could only find a very basic summary.


Appreciate you help, John

[shanegtr]

Heres the datasheets for Valvoline FE and ENV C1

[winaje]

As the mechanic has changed their advice on the oil used once so far, make sure that you get all correspondence via email. This will assist if legal action is required.

[Graeme]

A sample of the old oil might be worthwhile having if you can be sure it is indeed what came out of the engine or better still directly from the sump.

[Tombie]

Sounds like the Mechanic is positioning themselves to avoid legal action...

Get all correspondence in writing, samples of the oil, and photographs...

And contact your insurance company!

[Graeme]

They may have thought that any synthetic 5W-30 would be OK, not an uncommon assumption.

[Tombie]

They may have thought that any synthetic 5W-30 would be OK, not an uncommon assumption.

But an expensive one!!

[Fatso]

If this is straight out of a service then check that the oil filter has been put in correctly , if the spigot on the filter is not properly seated when fitting then the filter is crushed when the cover is screwed, on thus starving the eng of oil , this can result in a seized eng .

[Graeme]

The 3.0 oil filter cannot be fitted incorrectly.

If the vehicle is a very early one that's fitted with a DPF then the A1/A5 oil is incorrect although it wont adversely affect the engine, only the DPF.

[p38arover]

Do the service invoices show the oil used?

[Fatso]

The 3.0 oil filter cannot be fitted incorrectly.

If the vehicle is a very early one that's fitted with a DPF then the A1/A5 oil is incorrect although it wont adversely affect the engine, only the DPF.



Dead right, forgot we were talking the 3 ltr .

[scarry]

Vavoline FE is suitable for 2.7 TDV6 D4,and any 2.4/2.2 TDci Defender with no DPF.

[ThrowawayFool]

Sounds like the Mechanic is positioning themselves to avoid legal action...

Get all correspondence in writing, samples of the oil, and photographs...

And contact your insurance company!



Yep, agreed, am going there tomorrow morning to inspect for myself - regards insurance company, do you think they would interested? I had assumed that for mechanical failure (even if caused by a negligent mechanic) that wouldn't care?

[ThrowawayFool]

They may have thought that any synthetic 5W-30 would be OK, not an uncommon assumption.


I am fairly sure that this is the case, as when I originally started talking about the different ACEA specs, I got the impression that he didn't know what I was going on about.


As to whether this is what has caused the problem, not sure yet.

[ThrowawayFool]

The 3.0 oil filter cannot be fitted incorrectly.

If the vehicle is a very early one that's fitted with a DPF then the A1/A5 oil is incorrect although it wont adversely affect the engine, only the DPF.



As mine is a 2009 build, MY2010 model, my understanding is that it does have the DPF. When I consulted the Valvoline website, it recommended the ENV C1 spec only up until 2012 models (assuming due to the DPF).


At no point has my mechanic claimed using this correct spec (and I suppose it would be pretty easy to check with Valvoline if they purchased any if I had to).

[ThrowawayFool]

Do the service invoices show the oil used?



Unfortunately the invoices only state that the OEM recommended spec was used, which I am now sure was not the case (although it isn't really clear exactly what spec was used).


Good idea though, and I did dig out all my old invoices to check :-)

[ThrowawayFool]

Vavoline FE is suitable for 2.7 TDV6 D4,and any 2.4/2.2 TDci Defender with no DPF.



Mine is the 3.0 with the DPF (2009-2012), according to Valvoline only the ENV C1 should be used.

[LandyAndy]

I am fairly sure that this is the case, as when I originally started talking about the different ACEA specs, I got the impression that he didn't know what I was going on about.


As to whether this is what has caused the problem, not sure yet.

Keep as friendly as you can with your spannerman,if you can prove the wrong oils caused the issue he should be insured to cover this.Easier to get it fixed amiacably than have to go thru court to get his insurance to pay.
Andrew

[ThrowawayFool]

Keep as friendly as you can with your spannerman,if you can prove the wrong oils caused the issue he should be insured to cover this.Easier to get it fixed amiacably than have to go thru court to get his insurance to pay.
Andrew



Totally agree, and I am sharing everything I discover with him as speculation, rather than accusation.


Although I am convinced that they weren't using the recommended spec, based on what I have been able to find out (in large part from the help here - thanks guys!), it doesn't actually seem likely that this is the cause of the failure.


I have had a very long standing and amicable relationship with these guys over many years, and several vehicles, and I have no reason to think that they would deliberately mislead me.

[ThrowawayFool]

UPDATE: Spoke to the mechanic earlier this evening, and they have now stripped off both the oil pump and the sump.


The oil pump appears to be undamaged, and no sludge or residue appears to be present.


When the sump was removed, they found a fair amount of debris (I assume mostly from the bearings), including a bolt from one of the bearing retainers. The rod from cylinder 2 (I think no. 2) has broken.


Amazingly, the timing belt is still intact. But then it is a very solid belt :-)


The mechanic also mentioned that he has sent a sample of the oil away for lab analysis - not really sure exactly what they are testing for but i'll ask him.


I am going in tomorrow morning to see for myself, and discuss next steps.


My big worry is that I still don't really have any real theories as to what caused it, and without knowing I am reluctant to invest the money to fix it and potentially for it to re-occur.


Any ideas / theories, and how I might be able to check if that is the case would be very welcome.


Thanks, John

[letherm]

As mine is a 2009 build, MY2010 model, my understanding is that it does have the DPF. When I consulted the Valvoline website, it recommended the ENV C1 spec only up until 2012 models (assuming due to the DPF).


At no point has my mechanic claimed using this correct spec (and I suppose it would be pretty easy to check with Valvoline if they purchased any if I had to).

Here's a couple of links from/to previous threads that show how to determine whether your car has DPF or not.

Vehicle Identification Number - DISCO3.CO.UK Knowledge Base (http://www.disco3.co.uk/wiki/VIN_Details)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/192163-dpf-dicso-4-a.html


Thought it might help with your investigations.

Good luck.

martin

[Graeme]

Only the first few 2009 built 3.0s sold in Australia were fitted with a DPF. I had a 3.0 on order which arrived with a DPF. As I didn't want a DPF another order was placed, still 2009 build, after production changed to only fit a DPF for countries requiring them.

[Fatso]

As the timing belt is still ok that rules it out as the cause , would suspect a bearing problem .
I remember a topic on the uk site Disco 3 re this problem which had a speel released by LR re the problem with the 3 ltr eng , would defo contact LR AU re this and see what they have to say .
Maybe a bit of search on "Disco 3" under (seized engine) might dig up some usefull insight for you before contacting LR AU . Worth a shot if you have not already done so .

[Ean Austral]

I think its quite clearly spelt out in the document that Graeme postedearlier in the thread about the resulting posible damage from using the incorrect spec oil.

It seems from how it reads to me that this is clearly the case. I may have mis-read it but the valvoline oil stated seems to be the wrong oil.

I would be following this avenue first if it ws me.

Cheers Ean

[BobD]

Mine is also a 2009 build 2010 model and it doesn't have a DPF.

[Graeme]

including a bolt from one of the bearing retainers.Not much oil pressure if a bearing cap comes loose.

[rwlse]

Its not good news when you hear about things like this. It always causes concern on whether yours is going to do the same.
Sadly I don't think it will be oil related.
If you have a DPF fitted than the C1 has to be used ,other wise you will clog up the DPF and you will stop.If however you don't have a DPF than the Ford spec A5B5.Which was used, would be very suitable. I've been using it since that spec came out, and have done some 60'000 ls, on it
Richard
2010 3lt D4.

[Melbourne Park]

Mine is also a 2009 build 2010 model and it doesn't have a DPF.

I presume you've checked that - via Land Rover using your vehicle number.

Hope too you got a sample of the oil.

Good luck.

[roverrescue]

despite whizz-bangery and black magic the engine at case still has up and downy bits and round and roundy bits.

The smoking gun is for me is:
" including a bolt from one of the bearing retainers"

Sure wrong oil could lead to main/big end bearing wear destruction possibly spinning and thus blocking the crank gallery leading to seizure... but if the big end cap has lost a bolt I would be guessing that as the root cause. Bolt lets go, that big end is now loose and flapping leading to rod failure combined with near complete loss of oil pressure via the now open crank gallery blah blah blah

My guess is going to be big end fixation failure either from incorrect torque at manufacture or failed bolt.

steve

[Graeme]

The smoking gun is for me is:
" including a bolt from one of the bearing retainers"As it was for me, if you see my comment a few posts back.

[scarry]

Also on some of the UK D3 posts about engine failure in D3,there is sometimes also a bolt found in the sump.

I have found crankshaft bearing cap bolts falling out and causing reciprocating refrigeration compresser failures as well.

[Nomad9]

Hi John,
Richard K spun a bearing in his D3. might be an idea to swap stories you might find some similarities. I don't think oil spec was Richards problem. If I am right the big ends are a fractured connection rather than a machined connection, in theory this gives a better chance of a cylindrical journal.

[TerryO]

I had some work done on the D3 a couple of weeks ago and unfortunately sitting in the workshops yard was a early D4 HSE that had suffered a major engine failure. They had not pulled it apart but they had done some preliminary external checking and found that the crank shaft / bearings were stuffed.

I hope there are not to many more threads like this popping up in the future.

[LRD414]

..... the big ends are a fractured connection rather than a machined connection .....


Could someone please explain what this means? Particularly the "fractured connection" I'm lost [emoji16]

Scott

[spudboy]

Instead of the big ends of being machined, they are literally fractured so they only fit together with their matching pair.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/433.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/434.jpg

[LRD414]

Thanks

[Celtoid]

Here's a couple of links from/to previous threads that show how to determine whether your car has DPF or not.

Vehicle Identification Number - DISCO3.CO.UK Knowledge Base (http://www.disco3.co.uk/wiki/VIN_Details)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/192163-dpf-dicso-4-a.html


Thought it might help with your investigations.

Good luck.

martin


The exhaust smell is a very easy way to tell if your car has a DPF or not.


My old D4 (AUG 2009) had a DPF, as does my wife's Merc. They are both almost odourless when running .... a sweetish smell from the D4.




My newest D4 MY 2013 ..... doesn't have a DPF and seriously stinks .... especially on start up.


On occasions, a REGEN light would also come on in the old one, as it was going through a clean out function. Didn't happen very often .... only a couple of times in the 4.5 years I owned it.

[ThrowawayFool]

I think its quite clearly spelt out in the document that Graeme postedearlier in the thread about the resulting posible damage from using the incorrect spec oil.

It seems from how it reads to me that this is clearly the case. I may have mis-read it but the valvoline oil stated seems to be the wrong oil.

I would be following this avenue first if it ws me.

Cheers Ean



Have used the links provided to verify that actually my car does NOT have a DPF, and therefore the A5/B5 Synpower FE is actually the correct spec for my car, despite the Valvoline website playing safe and recommending the C1 Synpower ENV just in case you might have a DPF.


I also have the test back from the oil - the oil itself was definitely NOT the cause of the issue.

[ThrowawayFool]

Not much oil pressure if a bearing cap comes loose.



I was actually wrong on this - the bolt was from the fractured rod, the bearing retainers are all still in place

[ThrowawayFool]

Its not good news when you hear about things like this. It always causes concern on whether yours is going to do the same.
Sadly I don't think it will be oil related.
If you have a DPF fitted than the C1 has to be used ,other wise you will clog up the DPF and you will stop.If however you don't have a DPF than the Ford spec A5B5.Which was used, would be very suitable. I've been using it since that spec came out, and have done some 60'000 ls, on it
Richard
2010 3lt D4.



Now confirmed I have no DPF, and testing back on the oil has proven that there is nothing wrong with the oil, or the spec used.

[LandyAndy]

Have you contacted Land Rover yet???
Beware they do monitor this website.
Andrew

[ThrowawayFool]

I presume you've checked that - via Land Rover using your vehicle number.

Hope too you got a sample of the oil.

Good luck.



Have now verified no DPF, so therefore A5/B5 Synpower FE is correct oil for my vehicle.


Lab testing of an oil sample has confirmed no problem with the oil itself.

[ThrowawayFool]

Have you contacted Land Rover yet???
Beware they do monitor this website.
Andrew



Nope, I haven't contacted them as yet (directly anyway). Have spoken to several LR dealers to get an understanding of parts costs and options, and seek advice on what might have happened. TBH, I am not sure on the best approach to take, given that it's out of warranty and I have no idea what went wrong.


Something that surprised me is that they have complete engines in stock in Australia - available for next day delivery.


Why would I need to be worried if they monitor this thread? I haven't made any accusations, just speculation. It broke. I don't know why. It's going to be VERY expensive.

[ThrowawayFool]

As it was for me, if you see my comment a few posts back.

Apologies, bit of a red herring there - I incorrectly stated the bolt came from the retaining caps, but when I saw the damage myself it was clear they are good, the bolt is from the rod that failed.

[ThrowawayFool]

I had some work done on the D3 a couple of weeks ago and unfortunately sitting in the workshops yard was a early D4 HSE that had suffered a major engine failure. They had not pulled it apart but they had done some preliminary external checking and found that the crank shaft / bearings were stuffed.

I hope there are not to many more threads like this popping up in the future.



Any idea if it was someone on here?

[LandyAndy]

Nope, I haven't contacted them as yet (directly anyway). Have spoken to several LR dealers to get an understanding of parts costs and options, and seek advice on what might have happened. TBH, I am not sure on the best approach to take, given that it's out of warranty and I have no idea what went wrong.


Something that surprised me is that they have complete engines in stock in Australia - available for next day delivery.


Why would I need to be worried if they monitor this thread? I haven't made any accusations, just speculation. It broke. I don't know why. It's going to be VERY expensive.

Was just letting you know,I would approach them and ask for assistance in replacing the motor at your least possible cost.A 2009 vehicle with a failed engine,they should last much longer.
Andrew

[ThrowawayFool]

Heads are now off, tiny scratches not even getting through the layer of carbon are the only damage. So the heads are good.


Then the bad news - the disintegrated bearing and has clearly made it's way through all of the oil lines, turbos and all, meaning that it would all need to be stripped and rebuilt.


The only thing I am really waiting on now is the breakdown of the oil/coolant heat exchanger to verify if there is any blockage in it that could have restricted the flow of oil.


Then I guess i'll ring Land Rover, share what I know, and see what they have to say.


Does anyone have any experience of raising concerns with them? Any tips?

[ThrowawayFool]

Was just letting you know,I would approach them and ask for assistance in replacing the motor at your least possible cost.A 2009 vehicle with a failed engine,they should last much longer.
Andrew



Ah, no worries - was the just 'Beware' bit that scared me :-)

[donh54]

...... the bolt is from the rod that failed.

Where on the rod? I haven't looked inside one of those engines, but where else are rod bolts other than on the bearing caps (except maybe locating gudgeon pin bushes, but that's pretty old school )


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[shanegtr]

Where on the rod? I haven't looked inside one of those engines, but where else are rod bolts other than on the bearing caps (except maybe locating gudgeon pin bushes, but that's pretty old school )


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

I was thinking the same thing

[ThrowawayFool]

I was thinking the same thing



Seems like I may have used the wrong term to describe the wrong thing, and ended up saying the right thing. Or at least conveying the right thing. Who said two wrongs don't make a right? :-)


The bolt that I am referring to is one of the pair that hold the big end around the crankshaft. You are right, they are the only bolts on the rod.


What I was originally trying to describe was the bolts that hold the crankshaft in place. Those are all fine.


Hope that clarifies.

[donh54]

Seems like I may have used the wrong term to describe the wrong thing, and ended up saying the right thing. Or at least conveying the right thing. Who said two wrongs don't make a right? :-)


The bolt that I am referring to is one of the pair that hold the big end around the crankshaft. You are right, they are the only bolts on the rod.


What I was originally trying to describe was the bolts that hold the crankshaft in place. Those are all fine.


Hope that clarifies.

Assuming that the engine has not been rebuilt at any prior time, I would be asking LR about the historical records of early engine failure as mentioned in earlier posts. Conrod bolts don't just fall out. Even if the rod breaks the bearing end is usually intact.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Graeme]

The bolt that I am referring to is one of the pair that hold the big end around the crankshaft. You are right, they are the only bolts on the rod.I made no assumption on which bearing caps were involved, con-rod or main bearings. just that any coming loose would have catastrophic results.

[BobD]

If a conrod bolt came loose wouldn't there be a hell of a lot of noise well before the bolt fell out?

[ThrowawayFool]

If a conrod bolt came loose wouldn't there be a hell of a lot of noise well before the bolt fell out?



Given what I experienced, I would say it was sudden and catastrophic failure, not a bolt coming loose. The big end of the rod in question was flattened - the part that goes around the crankshaft had been crushed to half it's size, and the part that actually holds the missing bolt has been ripped free. The small end had been similarly torn off.

[shanegtr]

What's that piston like - sounds like it could be seized in the bore

[winaje]

So, OP, any more info on what caused your engine to seize..................

[donh54]

If a conrod bolt came loose wouldn't there be a hell of a lot of noise well before the bolt fell out?

Not necessarily, Bob. As a rev-head of long standing I've taken part in the destruction of quite a few engines over the years. :rolleyes: Some of these gave very little, if any, warning (a Ford 390 with approximately 150 hp of nitrous added springs to mind :eek:) If the piston seized at anything over 2000rpm or so, the time to initial destruction would be well under a second,after that it's just pieces banging into each other. :what:


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[mowog]

I am interested in this topic because I have a D4 from the same year. Lets hope it gets back on topic.

[incisor]

Could someone please explain what this means? Particularly the "fractured connection" I'm lost [emoji16]

Scott

maybe these links will help

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3392/fracture-splitting-of-joint-faces

https://www.highpowermedia.com/RET-Monitor/3992/the-design-of-con-rod-fasteners-part-1

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3058/location-of-con-rod-caps-part-2

[Owen]

Any updates? Interested if a failure cause has been identified

[stevejames]

Given what I experienced, I would say it was sudden and catastrophic failure, not a bolt coming loose. The big end of the rod in question was flattened - the part that goes around the crankshaft had been crushed to half it's size, and the part that actually holds the missing bolt has been ripped free. The small end had been similarly torn off.

Hi mate, I have recently experienced a problem with my 2011 range rover sport similar to the story you posted with your engine seizing up whilst on the highway. It has only just been dropped of to the land rover dealer in Perth in hope that land rover will assist with the cost of the repairs as it is out of warranty by a year but has only travelled 56000 of highway kilometers. I am interested to know what the outcome was with your engine and if land rover took any responsibility in the failure and assisted with the costs. Appreciate any feedback you can offer me.

[letherm]

Hi mate, I have recently experienced a problem with my 2011 range rover sport similar to the story you posted with your engine seizing up whilst on the highway. It has only just been dropped of to the land rover dealer in Perth in hope that land rover will assist with the cost of the repairs as it is out of warranty by a year but has only travelled 56000 of highway kilometers. I am interested to know what the outcome was with your engine and if land rover took any responsibility in the failure and assisted with the costs. Appreciate any feedback you can offer me.

If LR don't give you any joy I would think about contacting Fair Trading. I would expect that 56,000km since 2011 would not be considered enough mileage to warrant an engine failure being acceptable under fitness for use for example. Presuming of course it's been serviced etc and not abused which LR may look at. Hope LR come to the party for you.

Martin

[LandyAndy]

If LR don't give you any joy I would think about contacting Fair Trading. I would expect that 56,000km since 2011 would not be considered enough mileage to warrant an engine failure being acceptable under fitness for use for example. Presuming of course it's been serviced etc and not abused which LR may look at. Hope LR come to the party for you.

Martin

LR will look into the vehicles use.EVERYTHING is there to be seen.We have had several engine and transmission replacements on our earthmoving gear,nothing recorded to cause the failures so they happily replaced motors and transmissions.
I know our Volvo and CAT gear record everything to hard drive as soon as a fault occurs,to "try and diagnose the issue" or blame the operator in advent of a warranty claim.We even had an operator caught out with exsessive idle hours compared to operating hours,he was parking up with the aircon running sleeping/playing on the internet with his Iphone:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
at 56000km one would expect them to play ball!!!!!
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[shanegtr]

I would expect that 56,000km since 2011 would not be considered enough mileage to warrant an engine failure
Actually a large percentage of machines fail either early in there life or completely randomly. 56,000km could almost be classified as infant mortality
Studies but the airline industry in the 70's found that most failures (around 70%) are infant mortality (trend F below). The next larges failure mode is the trend E below, which are random failures. Machines do fail and most of your warranty periods are there to cover the "infant mortality" of your car

[ozscott]

There may be something in these threads but i have not trawled through.

Google sa 4x4 community disco 3 engine failures

Cheers

[ThrowawayFool]

HiAll,

After much back and forth, and speaking to a number of people, it appears that the cause of the issue is actually two things coming together;

1.Bearings not being made to specification, thereby reducing oil pressure at that bearing and increasing wear at that point.
2.Oil cooler partially blocked by silicon used to seal the engine during manufacture, restricting flow and impacting oil circulation.
(note that the silicon issue affects water coolers also)

These two items together have then resulted in excessive temperature at the bearing site. I am speculating, but I believe that the as the oil is not as constricted as it should be with that bearing, the oil pressure is not reduced enough (pressure is reduced and flow is increased as fluid passes through a constriction) to enable the oil to flow properly through between the bearing and the crank (as the total flow is limited and the remaining flow takes the path of least resistance via the other bearings).

I have now sourced a complete replacement engine from a 2015 D4 with only 3000km on it - as a result I plan to keep the D4 for the time being. If all goes well, the engine will hopefully be fitted next week.

The people I am getting the engine from have recommended that every 50000km all the oil and water radiators are either replaced or cleaned (one of them sealed and cannot be serviced). I will be doing this from now on, as well as the transmission filter change (aftermarket filter as OEM is non-serviceable) I was already doing every 50000km.

I have raised the issue with Land Rover, who refuse to confirm or deny that there is any kind of problem at all. Despite Consumer Law in Australia clearly stating that a manufacturer or importer of goods is responsible for ensuring that those goods meet reasonable expectations of durability, they have also refused to assist with my claim in any way. From a letter to me from Land Rover Australia; "we have no expected timeframe for the life of individual components" and "we consider it a natural part of vehicle maintenance and use". Put simply, a total and catastrophic engine failure after only 100000km is not surprising to Land Rover Australia, and therefore my claim is not valid.

Given that Land Rover have complete engines ready in Australia, waiting to be installed, I would also speculate that they have already had to do a number of these under warranty. In addition, these engines are not new, but remanufactured, further supporting this assertion. The cost of one of these, and all the other parts you need to resolve this failure, is around $50,000.

Furthermore, the high demand for these engines from wrecked vehicles is keeping the price very high, again supporting an unexpected level of failures.

I intend to keep pursuing Land Rover, both via legal and media options available to me. If anyone hasn't had this problem, I would recommend that you get your radiators cleaned or replaced asap, in an effort to avoid it. If you have had this problem, it would be great if you could get in touch as I think a combined approach to put pressure on Land Rover Australia would be more effective.

Note also that I shared this post with Land Rover Australia several days prior to posting, but they declined to comment.

As I continue on this journey, I will keep you all updated on this forum.

Thanks for your help,

John

[ThrowawayFool]

Hi mate, I have recently experienced a problem with my 2011 range rover sport similar to the story you posted with your engine seizing up whilst on the highway. It has only just been dropped of to the land rover dealer in Perth in hope that land rover will assist with the cost of the repairs as it is out of warranty by a year but has only travelled 56000 of highway kilometers. I am interested to know what the outcome was with your engine and if land rover took any responsibility in the failure and assisted with the costs. Appreciate any feedback you can offer me.



When I was talking to their customer service people, a key assessment of whether they would help or not was 'loyalty to the brand'. I would suggest that if you bought the vehicle new, and have used a dealer for servicing, you have a lot of brand loyalty.


Do you also have the 3.0 SDV6? Note that in a mistaken response from Land Rover, it also appears that they have a similar issue with the Freelander 2 - wondering how far it extends...


Hope this helps,


John

[rar110]

Just file a court claim after engaging a solicitor to write a letter reserving your rights. The legal dept may have a different view.

Check the limits of small claims in your state. If within that jurisdiction file there.

[ianmck]

Hi there


For my first ever post I wish it was a happier one.


Our ones in at the local Landrover dealer after coming to a halt while towing our caravan. It has seized with a possible cause being a broken crank. It has done 159,000 kms and is a 2010 3 litre.


The dealer is removing the engine and then the sump to see if they can determine what has gone wrong. They drained the oil looking for metal in it but found nothing and commented the oil seemed a little thick. I have taken an oil sample and may have it tested.


Reading through this thread I am not very hopeful Landrover will be helping me out but we will wait and see what the damage is and run it past them anyway.


Thanks Throwaway for starting this thread.


Ian

[SBD4]

Bugger, I wish you luck with Land Rover but it is unlikely they will do anything post warranty. I think the only hope would be if you have always had it serviced by a dealer or if fault can be found in the servicing.

Hope it gets sorted out to your satisfaction.

[PeterOZ]

202,000km on my engine does not seem so bad now :twisted:


QA on these highly stressed engines seems to be marginal.

[PeterOZ]

surely "implied warranty" and fit for purpose comes into play?


Seems there are a lot of people with similar issues, perhaps getting towards a class action?

[scomac]

This is really starting to worry me as I have a 2010 3.0 D4. Starting to think about trading it, but on what? I know every make has it's problems but is it just me or does the "engine failure" scenario seem to be more prevalent?

[ianmck]

I thought that maybe it's just a few isolated cases however it seems that a well known Landrover specialist I spoke to is seeing more of these cases. He also alerted me to a technical bulletin about bearing failure which our local dealer knew nothing about. He has now looked it up and agrees there is one but there is no point worrying about that until we know the cause.


I can not really prove loyalty to the brand since it is our first Landrover but I love this vehicle. I enjoy every trip I do in it short or long. My wife told me in no uncertain terms that we wouldn't be buying one so I waited until she left the country for a holiday then I hopped on the next plane to Sydney and bought it. She was good enough to show me how to do internet banking before she left. When I picked her up from the Airport in it she just laughed.


Does willing to risk your marriage count as loyalty?

[justinc]

Here is my take on it. I would pursue all avenues to the ends of the earth to get some kind of help from the parent company. There is no way an engine and vehicle of this caliber should have this issue. All our customers with 3.0 d4 etc get oil purchased from the dealer so there is no way there can be any doubt there. I only use Mahle or genuine filters. I recommend 10k or max 12 months interval. If i EVER come across this problem which i hope i never do i will be in their face very loudly.

I had a PCJ fault and subsequent engine failure with an out of warranty 2.4 puma a while back and it was like talking to a brick wall consulting with landrover. I see that issue is dealt with in uk regularly and at higher km and out of warranty so what makes it any different down here??? My customer and i are still angry about that episode. ..

Jc

[ozscott]

This is really starting to worry me as I have a 2010 3.0 D4. Starting to think about trading it, but on what? I know every make has it's problems but is it just me or does the "engine failure" scenario seem to be more prevalent?
Petrol v8.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

This is really starting to worry me as I have a 2010 3.0 D4. Starting to think about trading it, but on what? I know every make has it's problems but is it just me or does the "engine failure" scenario seem to be more prevalent?


So how many failures are we talking about? .... I've run out of fingers .... but then again I used to be a butcher.....

[Pedro_The_Swift]

We'll never know,
The unhappy side of this site is the problems that our members have,
the Happy side is we can usually fix them!!

The engine replacement number is LR Secret Squirrel business.

[TerryO]

The reality is if it's stuffed its stuffed, pulling the engine apart won't solve anything apart from confirm that yes indeed it is stuffed and incur you a bill to tell them what they already know.

You have to decide whether you are prepared to fight the honourable argument with LR even though the vehicle is out of warranty and the likely outcome, given their history in fixing anything out of warranty, is lots of angst and little chance of a easy solution while your Disco sits there possibly for months but definitely for weeks waiting for a outcome.
Another maybe less palatable pragmatic option but usually far less stressful and possibly far cheaper solution is take it away before the dealer pulls it all apart and get a private workshop to fit a new or replacement engine.

The reality is once it's in pieces you won't be taking it anywhere and then the dealer can charge you dealer rates, which are often much higher than a private workshops rates, to fix it.

So far I don't remember to many of these out of warranty engine meltdowns where a free replacement engine has been forth coming even after months of back and forth arguments and legal threats. I'm not saying this is right or good though rather that it is what it is.

Personally I would be asking LR for a heavily reduced in cost replacement engine given its low mileage and the potential for bad publicity.

Out of interest how often did you have the oil changed and do you know what oil was used?

[Nomad9]

Hi Scomac,
Most people who end up on a forum do because they have a problem, on this forum you usually come out with a way forward which at a time of "bustedness" is all you want. Yes reading peoples woes and problems can lead you into the mindset you are alluding to.
Trading it in..............why would you do that? Sorry my friend but if you applied that logic to every vehicle bought you would either ride a bicycle or walk. This forum is the best vehicle forum I have ever dealt with. The people are great, the information is endless. Some get a bit crabby when you ask a question that only required a quick search............ guilty!!!

I hear that Kia are now offering a 7 year warranty, not sure what that looks like I will never own a Kia. Kia forum, not so sure.

I got a |T shirt for my Stepson who is now in a TD5 Disco 2 and loving it, it says on the front "Land Rover getting ***** right since 1948" and they do.........

Stick with it, get your servicing right and continue to live the dream.

Cheers Marty.

[ianmck]

Well. No news yet. Engine only just came out late yesterday. The Dealer is only to remove the sump to look for a cause.


I was told that if you remove the sump before removing the engine, if the engine then needs to come out (which seemed obvious) then you have to put the sump back on to remove the engine. Prior to any of this work I rang around and got a ball park figure for replacing the engine. Our local Dealer going on another replacement they had done gave me a similar estimate. We therefore decided they should remove the engine.


I should point out the previous engine they replaced was due to it running out of oil.


Our vehicle was a Demo vehicle. I can't remember how many kms it had done but not many. We had the oil changed at 12,000, 25,000 and then every 26,000 after that. All bar the last one were done by Landrover Dealers. The last one was done by a Repco servicing centre and they had to order in the correct oil for it.


Ian

[ozscott]

Hope it doesn't hurt too badly mate. Some will tell me with modern oils 25,000 k or so is fine. However i dont accept it. Especially start stop short trips. They get condensation in the sump which doesn't help. Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

sorry Ian, but 26K? :Thump:


D4 oil must be really good:o

[Nomad9]

Hi Ian,
I have to ask what inspired the visit to Repco, why did you move away from the dealers? I am assuming that the oil has been drained now, did either you or the dealer record how much oil came out?
Well the engine is now out and I suspect that engine won't be going back in again, saying that you just never know.
Interested to hear what is found, going to be a slipped shell possibly, something to do with the crank obviously. Hope you get out of this without to much pain.

Cheers Marty.

[Chilly]

For Your Information.

Rung the local Land Rover Dealer to get some quotes on parts for my vehicle failure. D3 2.7. They had just done a D4 engine replacement for $40,000.

[spudboy]

OMG - $40K - that is ridiculous!!

Hope it doesn't cost you (IanMck) anywhere near that. :(

[TerryO]

We had the oil changed at 12,000, 25,000 and then every 26,000 after that. All bar the last one were done by Landrover Dealers. The last one was done by a Repco servicing centre and they had to order in the correct oil for it.

Ian


I'm sure LR will tell you and everyone else that they sell new Disco's to that every 26k for a oil change is now the go.

After all it's a big selling point that you can extend service intervals by a extra 1.5 times over previously accepted long time norms and so you don't have to pay high service costs so often.
And I reckon that if they backed it up with a 200k warranty for engine failures caused by parts like bearings that totally rely on oil being in good condition then that would be ok. But they don't.

One question if you don't mind, are you planning to stick to the LR inspired change the oil every 26k schedule once you get a replacement engine fitted?

[Nomad9]

Hi Chilly,
That's not to be sneezed at............$40k you would nearly write the vehicle off.

[ianmck]

Yes 26,000 between oil changes surprised us as well hence getting the first one done at 12,000. Landrover suggest a "health check" every 13,000 kms but they don't change the oil unless you insist on it. We were advised unless you had problems you could skip the health check and it wont interfere with your warranty. Our vehicle normally had a visit to a Dealer in between anyway due to other problems.


We used Repco since we live 115 kms from our nearest Dealer and they had serviced our other vehicles.(every 10,000 kms)


If and it looks more like when we get another engine and it is not a manufacturing fault I think we will need some convincing to let it go 26,000 between services.


Our local Dealer has been very helpful with a loan vehicle and looking into our options. It will cost us $18,000 to $23,000 according to there estimate.


Ian

[letherm]

. Landrover suggest a "health check" every 13,000 kms but they don't change the oil unless you insist on it. We were advised unless you had problems you could skip the health check and it wont interfere with your warranty.


Same here, although the salesman said you only needed the 12 month/26,000 kms service. After my first health check I checked my service history on TOPIX and it wasn't shown. I rang the service manager and he stated that it wasn't a scheduled service and does not get added to TOPIX which backs up that it should not interfere with warranty. I do a lot of short trips so always get the oil changed every 6 months (I don't do enough kms to get up to distance traveled) as a precaution.

Martin

[ozscott]

Yes 26,000 between oil changes surprised us as well hence getting the first one done at 12,000. Landrover suggest a "health check" every 13,000 kms but they don't change the oil unless you insist on it. We were advised unless you had problems you could skip the health check and it wont interfere with your warranty. Our vehicle normally had a visit to a Dealer in between anyway due to other problems.


We used Repco since we live 115 kms from our nearest Dealer and they had serviced our other vehicles.(every 10,000 kms)


If and it looks more like when we get another engine and it is not a manufacturing fault I think we will need some convincing to let it go 26,000 between services.


Our local Dealer has been very helpful with a loan vehicle and looking into our options. It will cost us $18,000 to $23,000 according to there estimate.


Ian
Mate its not the warranty you need to be worried about. It will break out of warranty with 25,000k between servicing and much sooner than it would with 5,000-10,000/6-12 month changes.

Manufacturers sell more vehicles if they say their vehices are cheaper to service. But they are only cheap until they go bang outside the factory warranty period and then the cost to the owner is outrageous compared to the costs in the 3 years of extra oil and filters as minor services...

its just a rort.

Cheers

[Nomad9]

Hi Ian,
The $18k to $23k options sounds better than the $40k option however this close to Xmas you just don't need something like that. I change my filter every 5k and oil every 10k, oils cheap in comparison. I hear the arguments about longer service periods being a selling feature.

I get my oil tested on occasion when doing oil changes, the 5k for the filter and the 10k for the oil kept the cleanliness levels of the patch test looking pretty good. I never went any further than the 10k between changes to experiment, on occasion I might have got to 12k. I had heard rumours of engine changes costing in excess of $20k so I just do regular changes and use OEM oil filters.

The comment about the warranty supporting the extended oil changes is an interesting point. That would show some confidence.

Good luck with the repairs.

Cheers Marty.

[SBD4]

My 2010 170,000km 3.0 D4 is $34K at wholesale. A $40K engine replacement would be out of the question. To be honest I can not see how it would cost that much.

I have had the oil changed every 13,000km since day one. My dealer recommended it and I agreed.

[Celtoid]

My 2010 170,000km 3.0 D4 is $34K at wholesale. A $40K engine replacement would be out of the question. To be honest I can not see how it would cost that much.

I have had the oil changed every 13,000km since day one. My dealer recommended it and I agreed.


With a bit of smart shopping you can buy a new 3.0L SDV6 D4 for just a bit more than $80K ..... $40K for a engine replacement?....almost half the price of a new car ......



I smell a whiff ..... if you know what I mean!

[Celtoid]

I'm sure LR will tell you and everyone else that they sell new Disco's to that every 26k for a oil change is now the go.

After all it's a big selling point that you can extend service intervals by a extra 1.5 times over previously accepted long time norms and so you don't have to pay high service costs so often.
And I reckon that if they backed it up with a 200k warranty for engine failures caused by parts like bearings that totally rely on oil being in good condition then that would be ok. But they don't.

One question if you don't mind, are you planning to stick to the LR inspired change the oil every 26k schedule once you get a replacement engine fitted?


That's a very good point Terry regarding a longer warranty.


However, I'd also like to see some facts Vs suggestion that 26K isn't achievable in this day and age.


Anybody got detailed info on this .... as in measurements (cylinder size, etc.) before and after .... independently assessed oil quality tests that don't only highlight if the oil has degraded but if there are any unusual elements in the oil ... like particles that can be attributed to excessive bearing or cylinder wear, etc., for the duration of several 26K cycles?


Otherwise it's just soapbox speculation ....

[Celtoid]

Well. No news yet. Engine only just came out late yesterday. The Dealer is only to remove the sump to look for a cause.


I was told that if you remove the sump before removing the engine, if the engine then needs to come out (which seemed obvious) then you have to put the sump back on to remove the engine. Prior to any of this work I rang around and got a ball park figure for replacing the engine. Our local Dealer going on another replacement they had done gave me a similar estimate. We therefore decided they should remove the engine.


I should point out the previous engine they replaced was due to it running out of oil.


Our vehicle was a Demo vehicle. I can't remember how many kms it had done but not many. We had the oil changed at 12,000, 25,000 and then every 26,000 after that. All bar the last one were done by Landrover Dealers. The last one was done by a Repco servicing centre and they had to order in the correct oil for it.


Ian


So what did they do with the excess oil do you know? .... apparently it doesn't come in 5L containers. Or maybe you can get it in low volumes if you are a service centre.


Is it possible they didn't use the correct oil and just used what they had readily available? If the above is correct, it seems unlikely that Repco would order in a 50L drum for one car .... without slugging the owner.

[TerryO]

That's a very good point Terry regarding a longer warranty.


However, I'd also like to see some facts Vs suggestion that 26K isn't achievable in this day and age.


Anybody got detailed info on this .... as in measurements (cylinder size, etc.) before and after .... independently assessed oil quality tests that don't only highlight if the oil has degraded but if there are any unusual elements in the oil ... like particles that can be attributed to excessive bearing or cylinder wear, etc., for the duration of several 26K cycles?


Otherwise it's just soapbox speculation ....

I'm happy to stand on my soapbox when it comes to not changing oil on or about the 10k mark, 26k to me anyway is way to much of a risk and why would anyone want to risk a massively expensive engine failure for the sake of a few extra oil changes?

If some are prepared to risk their engines longevity and the potential consequences of not changing oil more often then that is their choice.

[justinc]

So what did they do with the excess oil do you know? .... apparently it doesn't come in 5L containers. Or maybe you can get it in low volumes if you are a service centre.


Is it possible they didn't use the correct oil and just used what they had readily available? If the above is correct, it seems unlikely that Repco would order in a 50L drum for one car .... without slugging the owner.

I have to go to our local dealer who is happy to sell me a small amount if i bring in a (10litre) container. They sell it to me at a reasonable price so i can sell it at normal retail and make it worthwhile . Why would anyone risk not using the correct oil at a sensible change interval ? You have a $$$$$ investment in the vehicle oil is cheap!!!

Jc

[ianmck]

Still no news yet from the Dealer. I rang yesterday afternoon and was told the engine is out but the person I was dealing with wasn't available.


I sent an oil sample off for analysis on Friday so should get the results back later this week. It is probably throwing good money after bad but for $40 it will hopefully enlighten me if nothing else to service intervals.


Celtoid, it is possible that the wrong oil was put in. Maybe the oil test will tell.

Ian

[shanegtr]

I'm happy to stand on my soapbox when it comes to not changing oil on or about the 10k mark, 26k to me anyway is way to much of a risk and why would anyone want to risk a massively expensive engine failure for the sake of a few extra oil changes?

If some are prepared to risk their engines longevity and the potential consequences of not changing oil more often then that is their choice.
Without used oil analysis you really don't know how long your oil is good for. The oil itself doesn't wear out, its the contamination that does it and modern engines run much cleaner than they used to. My last oil change was done @ 15K and the oil was still perfectly fine, minimal contamination and the viscosity was still within the range of new oil. Longer drain intervals recommended by manufacturers would be shorter than what the oil is capable of as they don't want premature engine failures within the warranty period due to oil - there's also the environmental aspect to consider as well


Still no news yet from the Dealer. I rang yesterday afternoon and was told the engine is out but the person I was dealing with wasn't available.


I sent an oil sample off for analysis on Friday so should get the results back later this week. It is probably throwing good money after bad but for $40 it will hopefully enlighten me if nothing else to service intervals.


Celtoid, it is possible that the wrong oil was put in. Maybe the oil test will tell.

Ian
You'll only really tell if the wrong viscosity oil was put in - as far as oil analysis is concerned the additives that show up in the results are all very similar between engine oils.

[ozscott]

That's a very good point Terry regarding a longer warranty.


However, I'd also like to see some facts Vs suggestion that 26K isn't achievable in this day and age.


Anybody got detailed info on this .... as in measurements (cylinder size, etc.) before and after .... independently assessed oil quality tests that don't only highlight if the oil has degraded but if there are any unusual elements in the oil ... like particles that can be attributed to excessive bearing or cylinder wear, etc., for the duration of several 26K cycles?


Otherwise it's just soapbox speculation ....

Celtoid in terms of general comments about service intervals and not aimed at the original post, over 20,000k plus is simply not good for any engine. I suspect that members of the public who posit otherwise have not changed their own oil (including seeing condensation in the oil), or stripped down an engine that has failed prematurely and that has sludge build up.

Mazda make very nice little petrol engines. Very tight tolerances. Petrol does not give engine oil a hard time like diesel does - especially diesels with EGR/particulate filtration. Yet Mazda have only recently INCREASED their servicing schedules to 10,000k or 12 months whichever is sooner. A 2.5 high comp Mazda 4 is a very long life engine and part of the 'secret' to its success is simply fresh oil. They have introduced capped price servicing to keep costs down, but I would never skimp on the 10,000k oil and filter change with my little Mazda 3 GT, and think it is simply asking for trouble to change oil and filter on a small hard working 2.7 or 3 litre turbocharged diesel hauling around close to 3 tonn every 20,000k plus.

Does 20,000k for a D3/4 diesel sound right? If the answer troubles you then change it at half that interval. Simple. So no soapbox, just some honest to goodness common sense.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Celtoid in terms of general comments about service intervals and not aimed at the original post, over 20,000k plus is simply not good for any engine. I suspect that members of the public who posit otherwise have not changed their own oil (including seeing condensation in the oil), or stripped down an engine that has failed prematurely and that has sludge build up.

Mazda make very nice little petrol engines. Very tight tolerances. Petrol does not give engine oil a hard time like diesel does - especially diesels with EGR/particulate filtration. Yet Mazda have only recently INCREASED their servicing schedules to 10,000k or 12 months whichever is sooner. A 2.5 high comp Mazda 4 is a very long life engine and part of the 'secret' to its success is simply fresh oil. They have introduced capped price servicing to keep costs down, but I would never skimp on the 10,000k oil and filter change with my little Mazda 3 GT, and think it is simply asking for trouble to change oil and filter on a small hard working 2.7 or 3 litre turbocharged diesel hauling around close to 3 tonn every 20,000k plus.

Does 20,000k for a D3/4 diesel sound right? If the answer troubles you then change it at half that interval. Simple. So no soapbox, just some honest to goodness common sense.

Cheers

Just to set the record straight, I change my oil every 13,000K ..... why? .... 'cause I'm sitting on the fence .... which is applying common sense until I have more facts. :)

However, I'm playing Devil's Advocate to explore some topics.

The norm used to be to change oil every 5Klms .... why did that change? The masses started to believe in the improvements in design and material (engine materials, engine design, oil improvements, etc.) So why doesn't this principle apply moving to greater oil change recommendations? Now, of course it makes sense that changing the oil more often is highly likely to be beneficial to the engine's life. However, if it could be proven that oil can last 30,000Klms without any significant degradation, then why would you change more often? My point is, you would assume LR has done some research ... or maybe they haven't and the theories of others regarding more attractive service intervals is actually the truth. But there you go ... I've said the word....'truth'. So what is the actual truth? Thus far we have a lot of common sense and a lot of speculation but no actual truth...let's call them scientific facts.

I'm not trying to pooh, pooh anybody's point of view or common sense approach. I would, as I'm sure everybody would, like to know the truth behind oil longevity and also why these engines are failing.

So .... My Soapbox comment was not about the oil per se, it's about the fact that a lot of statements are being made about why these engines are failing ... and there are no facts. Obviously, **** just happens sometimes and you get a failure but I'd love to get to a conclusion that gives a fairly accurate insight to what is causing them. If it is a fact that they are too highly stressed or there is some other design weakness, then there are going to be a lot people sweating ... including myself. But folks would want to know that. If it's a fact that the oil just can't cope for those periods of time ... well, folks would want to know that too ... because that is an easy fix. If it's the case that the engines failed because they were mistreated, the wrong oil was used, etc., then a lot of people could start breathing easier.

Everybody has the right to speculate .... but I like facts ... specially when it may cost me a lot of money..... through a failure or resale value loss.

That's the point I was making.....I'll get off my Soapbox now ... :)

[BobD]

Don't forget that the 26000 change interval (24000 for the 2010 3.0l) is for good conditions. The manual says more frequent changes are required in arduous conditions and it defines those conditions. It is enlightening to go into this a bit deeper on Topix as well.


I now change mine at 10,000km intervals based on my usage. It's early oil changes in Sydney by the previous owner were at 24000km. Engine is fine and burns no oil at 200,000km.

[shanegtr]

The norm used to be to change oil every 5Klms .... why did that change?
The big main game changer there is engine design - (diesel)- indirect injection vs direct injection. The old indirect engines dump large amounts of soot into the oil, where as the newer direct injection engines are much, much better in this regard.
As an example - my old landcruiser with a 1HZ engine, pushing oil change intervals out to 10,000km resulted in soot levels up to nearly 3% (typically around 2% however)
(bear in mind a 10L oil sump as well)
My D3 2.7 on a 15,000km oil change only has a soot load of 0.6% for a sump half the size. That's a big difference in contamination levels

[ozscott]

Robinson Service is big in the US in LR and other Euro marks. This is a good article:

JE Robison Service - Bosch Car Service Specialists ? the blog: Thoughts on oil change intervals and other fluid matters (http://robisonservice.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/thoughts-on-oil-change-intervals-and.html)

I dont buy for a minute that so called clean diesels are cleaner than a modern petrol...so why 10,000k for a modern petrol?

Anyway, I have given my opinion and that is all it is. I will continue to change oil at intervals I consider will lengthen the life of the engine. Oil is cheap. Engine replacements/rebuilds are not.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Robinson Service is big in the US in LR and other Euro marks. This is a good article:

JE Robison Service - Bosch Car Service Specialists ? the blog: Thoughts on oil change intervals and other fluid matters (http://robisonservice.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/thoughts-on-oil-change-intervals-and.html)

I dont buy for a minute that so called clean diesels are cleaner than a modern petrol...so why 10,000k for a modern petrol?

Anyway, I have given my opinion and that is all it is. I will continue to change oil at intervals I consider will lengthen the life of the engine. Oil is cheap. Engine replacements/rebuilds are not.

Cheers


The guy's oil advice seems sound but you will note that he is accepting the fact that better engineering is moving away from the old measures ....


However when a guy suggests "replacing the troublesome air suspension to springs" .... in newer Discos .... and suggests "upgrade to Polly Bushes " .... well I guess he knows his oils better than anything else.


Would you let this guy service your D4?

[ozscott]

Haha. Yes not great advice on suspension.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The cynic in me says its more to do with waste oil than anything else, its probably cheaper to spec a better (trans fluid) engine oil than pay to have a cheaper one disposed of every 6 months.

[ianmck]

Well it's confirmed the crank as broken. Unfortunately the fellow I have been dealing with has had to take leave for a few days so will go into the reason for it on Monday. I have been promised the oil analysis will be emailed to me Monday as well.


It would be nice to work out what has gone wrong so we can avoid it happening again. Certainly if we are spending $20+K on a new engine we don't want a repeat.


I think a lot of you are right. More oil changes!!

[jonesy63]

Good luck for Monday!

Owning a D4 2.7, I am still wondering why LR decided to make the 3L oil change intervals 26,000 km and yet keep the 2.7L at 12,000 km? They both have the same crank. I can't see how having one extra turbo would warrant extending the oil changes - it should reduce it if anything. Are the injectors and rings really that much better in design to offset the extra turbo? I doubt it.

IMHO, it all points to a marketing exercise (ie. reduced owner service costs) - where LR only have to cover warranty to 100,000 km and the risk to them is minimal. :mad:

[Graeme]

For MY10 the 2.7 was 24K and the 3L 26K - very little difference.

[scarry]

Our work Mitsy vans are petrol and we have been changing engine oil at 15k as per manufacturers specs,some did over 300k before they were sold,never had an issue.Many were also on LPG.The Tojo vans are all 10k,which is a PITA.

We were doing a lot of work with Castrol refrigeration oils in the days i had a D2.

I had the engine oil from the D2 tested a few times at 15k,and again at 20k.

At 15k the oil was fine,at 20k it needed changing.

The comment from the tester in the lab, was the D2 oil was performing better and in better condition than similar oil from a GU Nissan Patrol 6cyl diesel,at 3K.This showed how much further advanced the TD5 was compared with the indirect injected GU.

[jonesy63]

For MY10 the 2.7 was 24K and the 3L 26K - very little difference.

Not according to the following attachment (or the owners manual in my MY11):
http://www.disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/11656/LR4_MAINTENANCE_CHECK_SHEET_REST_of_WORLD_%281%29. pdf

[Nomad9]

Hi Jonesy63,
Is that check sheet from ToPIX? I'm after one for a RRS TDV8.

[Graeme]

Not according to the following attachment (or the owners manual in my MY11):The oil service was initially optional for MY10, only being required under certain operating conditions.

LR may have discovered that the superior fuel injectors and more injection bursts per combustion of the 3.0 that reduced oil contamination could not be applied to the older technology 2.7 injectors and injection bursts.

Edit: I'm relying on memory as I no longer has the MY10 handbook to check so I could be wrong. I note that the undated version of the D4 WSM that I have shows 12K for the 2.7 and 13K for the 3.0 - it doesn't mention 24K/26K at all.

[ozscott]

Our work Mitsy vans are petrol and we have been changing engine oil at 15k as per manufacturers specs,some did over 300k before they were sold,never had an issue.Many were also on LPG.The Tojo vans are all 10k,which is a PITA.

We were doing a lot of work with Castrol refrigeration oils in the days i had a D2.

I had the engine oil from the D2 tested a few times at 15k,and again at 20k.

At 15k the oil was fine,at 20k it needed changing.

The comment from the tester in the lab, was the D2 oil was performing better and in better condition than similar oil from a GU Nissan Patrol 6cyl diesel,at 3K.This showed how much further advanced the TD5 was compared with the indirect injected GU.
Hot kilometers on work vehicles...20,000k of hours per day highway for eg is better than 5,000k of short stop start trips over the course of a year. Even taxis with short trips put up huge ks on straight 6 petrols etc because they hardly get chance to get cold.

Cheers

[scarry]

The oil service was initially optional for MY10, only being required under certain operating conditions.

LR may have discovered that the superior fuel injectors and more injection bursts per combustion of the 3.0 that reduced oil contamination could not be applied to the older technology 2.7 injectors and injection bursts.

Edit: I'm relying on memory as I no longer has the MY10 handbook to check so I could be wrong. I note that the undated version of the D4 WSM that I have shows 12K for the 2.7 and 13K for the 3.0 - it doesn't mention 24K/26K at all.

Our MY12 2.7 is 24000k's/12 months as per handbook.

It gets done by the Indi once a year as it does less than 20k a year and i change the oil only,no filter, at the 6 months interval in between,no matter what the mileage.
I also make sure i use exactly the same oil as the Indi,as mixing oils is not advisable.

[scarry]

Hot kilometers on work vehicles...20,000k of hours per day highway for eg is better than 5,000k of short stop start trips over the course of a year. Even taxis with short trips put up huge ks on straight 6 petrols etc because they hardly get chance to get cold.

Cheers

True,but the D2 did a lot of around town work, less than 20k some years,in fact it had 105k on it when i sold it at 8 1/2 yrs old.

Another vehicle i should never have sold?.:(

[josh.huber]

Hi all,

When I was an apprentice it was at a bus shop with 136 buses all diesel all makes, from bedford leyland to merc and volvo with adblue. We used an approved conoco phillips oil and we had allot of engine rebuilds to get through, we spun bearings, broke cranks, threw rods. 1 engine was a reman isuzu which had no oil pressure. we put a master guage on confirmed it and then got some AGIP from up the road and cured it. the engine was just rebuilt and cold no oil pressure on this puss. we changed to shell which was so much better but the damage was done, the temp rose and the oil pressure would fall to nothing on the conoco.

Then I went to a crane company running mainly cummins and some cat engines. the cat engines were known for failing but none of ours ever did. that company did 15 years on castrol rx super. when it changed to valvoline after i left they washed a motor and had to have it rebuilt. the motor was quite old but making the change caused the issue.

I put a valvoline filter on my 4w4 once with an upside down filter and it would start with no pressure for 5 seconds everytime. took it back got another same problem, got a refund fitted a ryco problem gone. there products are dead to me.

the bottom end in an engine is relativly unchanged still a crank still plain bearings, still needs oil pressure. these 3l engines are sooters and should not be let to run 26k, especially if your not on the castrol c1 pro oil, the spec needs to be met otherwise with two turbos to cool the oil is gunna turn to crap and kill the bottom end. i got my car with 67k on it, used flush then changed the oil ran it for 2 hours then changed it again, was black and crappy. changed it at 5k next and ran it through my fingers, if it stains the pores of your hands its dirty and cant do its job, the oil doesnt have the capacitity within itself to hold anymore junk than 10k can throw at it.plus 6l sump is tiny for the HP these things put out. toyota learnt it lesson with those dirty 2.8l sludgers and had everyone underneath them in a driveway every 5k, landcruisers got big sumps after that.

anyway happy to be proved wrong but, oil approvals are a big deal due to the heat loads on it, addictive packages are also important. this could have been avoided if castrol made this product shelf available instead of having to walk into repco and explain to the counter how to order you a $400 drum of oil that will arrive a week later. 6l bottles would also be nice. its also funny how they will put any engine oil in but will look up which ATF to use!

[jon3950]

Another vehicle i should never have sold?.:(

I used to think that about mine, but it would have about 400k on it by now if I'd kept it. Could you really go back to a D2 now after the D4? (Says someone who's swapping their D4 for a Defender. :confused:)

Cheers,
Jon

[ozscott]

There was a LR bloke (former dealer) who did.... written up in LRO International when they did a segment comparing all Discos. He had had all versions and after owning a d4 until out of warranty he sold it and chose a d2 and he gave his reasons why. He did a lot of offroading. Of course everyone will come back and say crazy....no way etc...but i am just answering the question posed above. Well maintained d2 is becoming a sought after vehicle that combines enough of both modern and old tech and smaller size to fill a niche.

Cheers

[Nicky]

There was a LR bloke (former dealer) who did.... written up in LRO International when they did a segment comparing all Discos. He had had all versions and after owning a d4 until out of warranty he sold it and chose a d2 and he gave his reasons why. He did a lot of offroading. Of course everyone will come back and say crazy....no way etc...but i am just answering the question posed above. Well maintained d2 is becoming a sought after vehicle that combines enough of both modern and old tech and smaller size to fill a niche.

Cheers

Well, he definitely has not tried the limits of a D4.

[ozscott]

Give it a break Nicky. He gave a number of reasons. I am not having a go at the D4 offroad but if you like a lighter and modded offroader the D2 is the vehicle of choice out of the 2. Horses for courses. He also wanted something simplier. Some people just like a more organic experience. The d4 eats it for space, comfort, towing and still retains great offroad ability. I answered a question honestly. After 2.5 decades of 4wding in a number of models i dont need the practice of writing this post...

Cheers

[scarry]

I used to think that about mine, but it would have about 400k on it by now if I'd kept it. Could you really go back to a D2 now after the D4? (Says someone who's swapping their D4 for a Defender. :confused:)

Cheers,
Jon

I recon i could,a LOT cheaper and easier to repair,looks better,just my opinion.

No timing belts:)

I have taken the D2 on trips you couldn't take the D4.The old tele track on the cape comes to mind,a lot of water crossings,some over the bonnet.Did it twice with the D2,up and back,no problems at all.One easy mod,a snorkel,and a good set of boots.

Some may and have taken D3/4 on those types of trips,maybe i just worry to much.

Don't get me wrong,the D4 is a fantastic piece of kit,but it does have its disadvantages.It is way,way ahead of the D2 in many areas.

In fact i have had 3 D2s,travelled all over the country side and never had a breakdown or a repair.And they did a lot of hard off road work.

For remote area travel the D2,or for that matter a Deefer has a lot less things that can go wrong,than say a D3/4.Air suspension comes to mind here.

The D4 i have has played up,only minor things,but still those issues should never have happened.

Hope you are happy with the Deefer.I have used my sons a lot.It is really in a completely different class and can't be compared to a Disco.

[Celtoid]

I recon i could,a LOT cheaper and easier to repair,looks better,just my opinion.

No timing belts:)

I have taken the D2 on trips you couldn't take the D4.The old tele track on the cape comes to mind,a lot of water crossings,some over the bonnet.Did it twice with the D2,up and back,no problems at all.One easy mod,a snorkel,and a good set of boots.

Some may and have taken D3/4 on those types of trips,maybe i just worry to much.

Don't get me wrong,the D4 is a fantastic piece of kit,but it does have its disadvantages.It is way,way ahead of the D2 in many areas.

In fact i have had 3 D2s,travelled all over the country side and never had a breakdown or a repair.And they did a lot of hard off road work.

For remote area travel the D2,or for that matter a Deefer has a lot less things that can go wrong,than say a D3/4.Air suspension comes to mind here.

The D4 i have has played up,only minor things,but still those issues should never have happened.

Hope you are happy with the Deefer.I have used my sons a lot.It is really in a completely different class and can't be compared to a Disco.


I personally can't get into the capability argument having never really put mine through anything that seemed hard but I think it has been touched on numerous times before in this forum with the sentiment being that you'd have to mod a D2 a fair way to compete with a D4 and even then, it would only have the edge in limited areas. But they (people making the statement) could be wrong.


However, I've got to ark up ... well not really :D, on the reliability comments of Deefers and D1/2 Vs a D4. It is definitely true that the earlier Ds and Deefers have a lot less to go wrong ..... but they did ... and very, very often. They are the reason Toyo drivers and the whole world take the **** out of LRs. They are the reason TATA bought LR for a fire-sale! D3 era LRs onwards and equivalent timeframe Jags are why Mr TATA has been laughing all the way to the bank since then. Even the ****ty JD Powers (for what that crap is worth - last time I looked) seems to have found other non-LR/Jag targets of late and they used to love throwing rocks at LR/Jag.

[Celtoid]

Give it a break Nicky. He gave a number of reasons. I am not having a go at the D4 offroad but if you like a lighter and modded offroader the D2 is the vehicle of choice out of the 2. Horses for courses. He also wanted something simplier. Some people just like a more organic experience. The d4 eats it for space, comfort, towing and still retains great offroad ability. I answered a question honestly. After 2.5 decades of 4wding in a number of models i dont need the practice of writing this post...

Cheers


Did he mention it's a lot easier to not cringe when you scratch or bend a D2 Vs a new D4, was that one of his reasons? ... LOL!!!


I remember my first 'pinstripes' on my brand new D4 very well .... I talked tough at the time but was ****ed off when I was trying to sell it :angry:. Would have been a lot worse for the guy on the same track with the bent sills on his new Hi-Lux


Cheers.

[justinc]

I believe i am reasonably well qualified to comment here that yes: the d3/ d4 are world leading in their capabilities on road and offroad however the d2 has its place, too. People choose vehicles for all manner of reasons and my personal experience with both these models over many many years of repairing and maintaining them on a daily basis for all sorts of people with all sorts of needs/wants/budgets etc is the reason i have an isuzu county as MY weapon of choice... ☺

Any of you can read into the above post whatever you like....😆

JC

[gghaggis]

There's a lot of "apples vs oranges" here (and sorry to the OP for continuing this off-topic bent). LR aren't stupid - they have the largest R&D off-road department of any motor brand. The D3 was designed to be better than the D2 - the D4 was designed to be better than the D3. And thd D5 is being designed to be better than the D4. And that's off-road. That they don't cater for the after-market crowd is a marketing decision - as I've said before, the after-market industry will have to catch up.

Even so, a stock D3 with a decent set of tyres and a set of rods/LLAMS will eat all but the most extremely modified D1/ D2's off-road. I know - we had a (very) modified D1 that we used to run in competitions with our stock D3. There's no "more" that goes wrong with them - it's just what does go wrong is "different" to what traditional 4WD owners are used to. This is what we teach in our seminars - how to simply and effectively diagnose faults so that they're as simple to diagnose as the mechanical issues that are rampant with D1 / D2/ Deefer models.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

Throwawayfool...sorry for the divergence. I wont add any more to it i promise. Hope you get your issues sorted mate. Its crazy what newer models motors cost to replace. By replacing it you are really committing to the vehicle (for most people) for the long term. But its a good vehicle to commit to if you had to pick one.

Cheers

[scarry]

I personally can't get into the capability argument having never really put mine through anything that seemed hard but I think it has been touched on numerous times before in this forum with the sentiment being that you'd have to mod a D2 a fair way to compete with a D4 and even then, it would only have the edge in limited areas. But they (people making the statement) could be wrong.

Sure,out of the box the D4 is way ahead,but how many people actually use these vehicles for extreme off road work?What i am saying is the D2 is probably quite adequate in its off road ability for most people


However, I've got to ark up ... well not really :D, on the reliability comments of Deefers and D1/2 Vs a D4. It is definitely true that the earlier Ds and Deefers have a lot less to go wrong ..... but they did ... and very, very often. They are the reason Toyo drivers and the whole world take the **** out of LRs. They are the reason TATA bought LR for a fire-sale! D3 era LRs onwards and equivalent timeframe Jags are why Mr TATA has been laughing all the way to the bank since then. Even the ****ty JD Powers (for what that crap is worth - last time I looked) seems to have found other non-LR/Jag targets of late and they used to love throwing rocks at LR/Jag.

Sure,the D3/4 is extremely reliable ,particularly considering how complicated the vehicle is.Maybe i just had a few D2's that were built on the right day,or maybe they were serviced correctly.The real issue is the repairs on a 10yr old D3/4 are going to be extremely expensive,compared with a D2 of the same sort of age and k's.

Anyway,just my 2cents worth:D

[jon3950]

In the first 5 years of ownership my D2 was considerably less reliable than either my D3 or 4. The D4 has been by far the most reliable Land Rover I've ever owned (and I don't expect my next one to change that :o). After 10 years it may be different, but I was really thinking about what my 13 year old D2 would be like compared to my 3 year old D4.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked my D2 and am not knocking them. I could live with a good example now if I had to, but I would find it very hard to after the D4 - it does everything I need it to so much better.

Cheers,
Jon

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
Having had both much like others here, from a complextity factor the D2 has got to be in front, I have just bought a D2 2002 TD5 SE, cost less that $5k, I bought it with a known head problem, even after fixing that I still have change out of the $5k. Full leather interior, heated seats, rear air con that doesn't work right now, sagging roof lining, great fuel economy and a minor leak out of the transfer case, its got everything. One thing for me was no timing belts, after 300 tdi's and 2.7 V6's I'm a little bit over it.
The D2 is very comfortable, the ACE does make a difference, the road holding is very good, it isn't air suspension so it isn't as smooth admittedly. I can get the engine out and change a turbo without lifting the body work off. My trailer lights don't flash.

The gearbox oil and engine oil (in the case of a D4) I can buy form any reasonable motor store and it doesn't cost $50 a litre. The hand brake is a lever, plain and simple, up and down. If the engine blows up I can buy a half decent motor for a couple of grand.

I love my RRS TDV8 to bits, awesome vehicle, however my D2 also has a very worthy place on the drive way, at least people know where I park.

Cheers Marty

[Celtoid]

Sure,the D3/4 is extremely reliable ,particularly considering how complicated the vehicle is.Maybe i just had a few D2's that were built on the right day,or maybe they were serviced correctly.The real issue is the repairs on a 10yr old D3/4 are going to be extremely expensive,compared with a D2 of the same sort of age and k's.

Anyway,just my 2cents worth:D


Sorry mate, the way you answered in the boxes has cut off some of your earlier content.....


D2 is an absolutely brilliant car off-road and on .... the reason I fell in love with LRs having been in Military Series, old Military Toyos and other offerings including later Military Defenders is the fact they did what they did so well.


However, in reality they were extremely unreliable across the board .... there was no BS in my statement about the early Ds and Deefers being the reason for the ownership path that followed (BMW - Ford - TATA). You may have had a couple of good ones but maintenance wasn't a telling factor outside the norm. The rest of the world, and the company itself couldn't argue against the fact that there were series reliability issues .... that's why TATA own LR now! There is no argument on that front, there really isn't mate.


The 'Cost of Ownership' (it's a Logistics Engineering Term) is the other thing you were alluding to .... yup on a maintenance receipt a D3/4 might sound expensive, but based on all D1/2 failures Vs D3/4 over a 10 year period ... including the less tangible cost of your own time (owner's rates are cheap [Supposedly] but other mechanical help will not be so) transport, accommodation, lost trips, lost time with your family, etc, etc .... how would they stack if you fed the numbers in? Add in the fact that a later model D is a better drive, better off-road .... blah, blah ... there is actually a value for these things that don't relate directly to $.


Just saying ....

[jon3950]

If we are looking at cost of ownership we should include depreciation. The D4 is holding its value far better than any previous model.

I've had one of each Disco - 1, 2, 3 & 4. Each one has been more complex than the previous but has also been more reliable. In 20 years I've only been stranded twice. Once when the fuel pump on the D1 packed up and once when I put a rock through the fuel cooler on my D3 (my own fault). The D2 and the D4 have been the most enjoyable to own.

How a 10+ year old D4 would compare to a D2 is an interesting question and I suspect its not as bad as you may think. 2 things are in the D4's favour. Firstly more work was put in at the design stage to make it easier to build to a higher standard and secondly a lot of work was put into improving supplier quality. This has meant that the D4 is better built out of better components than a D2. So while there are more expensive components to replace they will break less often.

Cheers,
Jon

[scarry]

If we are looking at cost of ownership we should include depreciation. The D4 is holding its value far better than any previous model.

I've had one of each Disco - 1, 2, 3 & 4. Each one has been more complex than the previous but has also been more reliable. In 20 years I've only been stranded twice. Once when the fuel pump on the D1 packed up and once when I put a rock through the fuel cooler on my D3 (my own fault). The D2 and the D4 have been the most enjoyable to own.

How a 10+ year old D4 would compare to a D2 is an interesting question and I suspect its not as bad as you may think. 2 things are in the D4's favour. Firstly more work was put in at the design stage to make it easier to build to a higher standard and secondly a lot of work was put into improving supplier quality. This has meant that the D4 is better built out of better components than a D2. So while there are more expensive components to replace they will break less often.

Cheers,
Jon

Hopefully,but as i have said,a lot more things too go wrong as it is way more complicated than the earlier models.

LR had to get the reliability reputation off their back or they wouldn't survive in the current market.People have good memories,it will take generations before it disappears altogether.

And carrying on from Celtoid,pity LR haven't put more effort into making the last of the Defenders more reliable as well.They have had many years to get them sorted.In fact looking at some posts by JC,and others,some major components are worse than they ever have been.Some may say it is a run out model but that is really no excuse.

It doesn't do the brand reputation any favours at all.

And thinking about the D2,the last one i had,a D2a was one of the best vehicles i ever had.

[jon3950]

And carrying on from Celtoid,pity LR haven't put more effort into making the last of the Defenders more reliable as well.

Isn't it. Trouble is the design is inherently difficult to build. That's why it has to be replaced.



And thinking about the D2,the last one i had,a D2a was one of the best vehicles i ever had.

So was mine - second only to the D4. :D And while I think the D4 is more capable I agree in many ways the D2a was more suitable for getting into the rough stuff. Certainly a more engaging drive, which is one of the reasons I'm getting a Defender.

Cheers,
Jon

[TerryO]

There's a lot of "apples vs oranges" here (and sorry to the OP for continuing this off-topic bent). LR aren't stupid - they have the largest R&D off-road department of any motor brand. The D3 was designed to be better than the D2 - the D4 was designed to be better than the D3. And thd D5 is being designed to be better than the D4. And that's off-road. That they don't cater for the after-market crowd is a marketing decision - as I've said before, the after-market industry will have to catch up.

Even so, a stock D3 with a decent set of tyres and a set of rods/LLAMS will eat all but the most extremely modified D1/ D2's off-road. I know - we had a (very) modified D1 that we used to run in competitions with our stock D3. There's no "more" that goes wrong with them - it's just what does go wrong is "different" to what traditional 4WD owners are used to. This is what we teach in our seminars - how to simply and effectively diagnose faults so that they're as simple to diagnose as the mechanical issues that are rampant with D1 / D2/ Deefer models.

Cheers,

Gordon


I agree with Gordon and many have never really pushed or challenged their D3/4's off road to know, fearing the damage or the likelyhood of them failing while out bush. But unless your really prepared to take risks then you will never really know how good they truly are off road especially with the mods Gordon mentions.

Its not unusual to read comments in here on how much better a D1/2 is off road by people who have never owned a D3 or D4 to truly know.

My reasonably modded D3 will go anywhere my heavily modded D1 would, though I could mod the D1 up even more and then the D3 wouldn't keep up, but the D1 would be a absolute pig to drive on road, where as the D3 would still be good enough to be a daily long distance driver.

Its easy to remember past owned vehicles and how good they were and indeed at the time they were that good, but few have owned longterm their old Disco's along with their current new ones to compare, I have.

I am down to three Disc's now, after deciding four was to many and comparing them over time the one I sold off was the D2a, owning all four Disco models at the same time and driving them puts a completely different perspective on each model and their strengths and weaknesses and the one that made the least sense to keep was the D2a. No offense meant to D2 owners but for me it was a obvious choice.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so you sold the best one,, goodonya. :p


making way for Mk V ? :angel:

[scarry]

so you sold the best one,, goodonya. :p




Not yet,it is still in his sig.:p

Pretty sought after,a good D2a,and not bad price either,but it has to be good;)

[TerryO]

Not yet,it is still in his sig.:p




Not anymore it isn't Paul, the D2 is gone.

[ianmck]

Well it has been a while. Sorry for not posting sooner but I didn't want to jinx our good fortune.


I picked the vehicle up this afternoon with a new engine thanks to Landrover Australia. They paid for everything apart from the non genuine accessories that needed shifting (winch).


We had sent them an email explaining what had happened and suggested they provide a new engine and we would cover the labour costs. To our surprise they sent one back advising us they would pay more or less the lot. They expressed their disappointment that this had happened and thanked us for our patience and hoped this gesture of goodwill would go towards restoring our faith in the brand.


Just to remind some people this vehicle was a D4, 12/2010 build. It had done approx. 160,000 kms and had its last couple of services done at our local Repco. We did not have an extended warranty.


I know some people will say Landrover only did this because they knew it had a fault but I would like to believe they were genuinely disappointed and were ready to stand by their product. I can not thank them enough.


I would also like to mention how helpful and professional Blacklocks at Lavington were.


Thanks to everyone for their comments and advice.


Ian

[slug_burner]

Very good news, things turned out well.

[Meken]

Excellent outcome - sounds like the dealer went into bat for you

[LandyAndy]

Well done to the dealer and LRA.
We need to here much more good news stories like this.
AWESOME.
Andrew

[ozscott]

Excellent mate. They have always been good at support after the 100k stated limit. Cheers

[chuck]

That's great news and must be a load of your mind.

Well done Land Rover Australia