2.4 Puma - Possible Injector Problem

[Keath]

Wondering if anyone has had a similar experience to me.

I have a 2008 2.4 110 Puma with 150,000km's on the clock.

Recently it has been experiencing a rough idle, this used to only be from cold, however it now does it even after the engine has warmed up in normal driving conditions after coming to a stop.

It's not that bad, but certainly enough to notice. It slightly surges up then drops and so on consistently. The car drives fine and I haven't noticed any change in performance or fuel economy.

The only other symptom it's showing is faint whitish smoke from the exhaust and a toxic odor.

In the last month i have replaced all glow plugs and fitted a new EGR valve so these can be ruled out of the equation. (After removing the old glow plugs and testing them, only 1 out of the 4 was working!)

Am i right in suspecting that my injectors are on the way out?

I took it to my mechanic, who is not a LR specialist. He ran a diagnostic check that came up clear, this didn't really surprise me as I have read others who had similar problems not being able to diagnose the issue.

Do LR dealers or specialists have a tool that can turn off each cylinder individually to narrow the problem injector? My mechanic informs me he knows someone who can test them after pulling them out but charges and arm and a leg, so i'd like to avoid this if possible.

And finally, injectors for the 2.4 transit seem to be available at much less cost than for a LR, are they exactly the same?

Thank you in advance!

Lachlan.

[MY LANDY]

G'day Lachlan

I'm no mechanic, however, I have experienced a range of issues with my '08 110 over the four-and-a-bit years I've owned it. I had some erratic idling with mine which turned out to be contaminated fuel (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/205525-algae-fuel-contamination.html).

I reckon this is an unlikely cause but worth checking your fuel filter just to eliminate contamination as a possibility. Pretty easy to do, even for those of us still learning our way around the Defender (like me).

[Keath]

Thanks mate.

I forgot to mention, my mechanic inspected the fuel filter, and air sensors and all were fine. And i have run a Wurth Biocide and Injector Cleaner through about 2 full tanks ago.

[n plus one]

Hunting idle is often a symptom of a Suction Control Valve heading south - they're acommon point of failure on these motors around your mileage (mine went at 125k) and the next stage is a (intermittent) loss of throttle response.

It may be worth looking into whether this is your issue - I'd suggest you try surfing some Transit forums for more info on this (as well as other possible causes).

[Keath]

Hunting idle is often a symptom of a Suction Control Valve heading south - they're acommon point of failure on these motors around your mileage (mine went at 125k) and the next stage is a (intermittent) loss of throttle response.

It may be worth looking into whether this is your issue - I'd suggest you try surfing some Transit forums for more info on this (as well as other possible causes).

Thank you for that, after reading up on the SCV, it could definitely be the potential problem.

I hope that is it rather than injectors!

Did you have any smoke or strong smell from your exhaust?

[n plus one]

Thank you for that, after reading up on the SCV, it could definitely be the potential problem.

I hope that it is rather than injectors!

Did you have any smoke or strong smell from your exhaust?

Not that I noticed - what type of smell are you noticing?

[Keath]

Not that I noticed - what type of smell are you noticing?

I'm not too familiar with different diesel odors, but it just smells toxic. I used to be able to leave the car running inside a garage without noticing any bad fumes, now i can smell the car running from 20m away if i'm downwind.

[Chops]

I had issue's with mine a while ago.
The RACV made LR take the injectors and pump out and have them tested by a guy in Clayton. All returned with the ok.
I'm not sure who you've got over your way, but maybe you could track a similar bussiness over there.
My problem was eventually solved with the replacement of the ECU. I'm not sure how much the testing cost, as mine was all done under insurance/warranty, and as such, the tester was presented with the single parts, not the car to deal with.
There's also a place in Sydney which rebuilds them too, which is what I looked into as I kept getting told the Ford ones wont work in my car. Having said that, no-one would actually tell me WHY they would'nt match. All sounded a bit sus to me.

On the up-side, in my garage, I have 4 injectors and a fuel pump for later use if anything does happen to mine.

[POD]

My 2009 130 is exhibiting similar symptoms. Has been very noticeable on the recent frosty mornings. The 'toxic' smell is normal and I'm told is characteristic of common-rail diesels.

[Keath]

My 2009 130 is exhibiting similar symptoms. Has been very noticeable on the recent frosty mornings. The 'toxic' smell is normal and I'm told is characteristic of common-rail diesels.

Yes mine only really became prevalent with the colder weather.

How many clicks are you up to?

[n plus one]

My 2009 130 is exhibiting similar symptoms. Has been very noticeable on the recent frosty mornings. The 'toxic' smell is normal and I'm told is characteristic of common-rail diesels.

Cold mornings was where my hunting issue first presented itself - I think the SCV wears, affecting the tolerances and the cold adds to this.

Obviously yours could be a different issue, but the SCV fault is a common as muck on the UK Transit forums...

[Lorryman100]

It is turning into a common issue here with the VCV (Volume Control Valve) failing giving the symptoms that you describe. The main issue is that it does not generate a DTC to allow you to focus in on the fault and after replacing fuel filters, accelerator pedals etc with no change in the issue replacing the VCV cured the issue. If you replace the VCV you will need to carry out a pump learn with a diagnostic tool after fitting the new part.

HTH Brian.

[Lorryman100]

@ Keath, The Nanocom Evo mark 1 allows you to disable each injector in turn for fault finding

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/07/79.jpg

[Keath]

It is turning into a common issue here with the VCV (Volume Control Valve) failing giving the symptoms that you describe. The main issue is that it does not generate a DTC to allow you to focus in on the fault and after replacing fuel filters, accelerator pedals etc with no change in the issue replacing the VCV cured the issue. If you replace the VCV you will need to carry out a pump learn with a diagnostic tool after fitting the new part.

HTH Brian.

Thank you for that Brian.

It sounds as if it could well be the SCV (is this the same as VCV?), I will have to take it back to the mechanic to investigate. I have read that a method to test the SCV is to measure the actual rail pressure and compare it to the target rail pressure (does anyone know the target pressure?) and if there is approx a 1000psi difference, something is up.

Just from reading more about the issue, it seems as if the following could be wrong:

- Suction Control Valve
- Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor (is this obvious by removing and inspecting?)
- Fuel Rail Pressure Relief Valve (apparently obvious if failed)

And I would like a nanocom down the track, but issues like this seem to be eating up any potential chance of affording one!

[n plus one]

Thank you for that Brian.

It sounds as if it could well be the SCV (is this the same as VCV?), I will have to take it back to the mechanic to investigate. I have read that a method to test the SCV is to measure the actual rail pressure and compare it to the target rail pressure (does anyone know the target pressure?) and if there is approx a 1000psi difference, something is up.

Just from reading more about the issue, it seems as if the following could be wrong:

- Suction Control Valve
- Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor (is this obvious by removing and inspecting?)
- Fuel Rail Pressure Relief Valve (apparently obvious if failed)

And I would like a nanocom down the track, but issues like this seem to be eating up any potential chance of affording one!

SCV, VCV and PCV are all the same thing.

PRV often goes in combo with the SCV in the Transits but in the Pumas not so much? My theory is that the dodgy SCV leads to a pressure spike in the rail in Transits but leads to a pressure drop in the Pumas - maybe due to different fuel programs?

PRV will come out in bits if it's blown. A good and a failed SCV look identical to my eye. I don't believe the sensors are a frequent cause of any issues, based on my research.

I'd consider replacing the SCV if I were you.

PS Lorryamn is right about the lack of DTCs.

[POD]

Yes mine only really became prevalent with the colder weather.

How many clicks are you up to?

Mine has done 206,000km.
My Nanocom has failed and is in a box about to head back to Cyprus for repair so I'm not able to investigate fault codes at present. Will have to do some research on this PCV, my knowledge of the electronics on the common-rail system is poor.

[POD]

Did a little reading and the SCV could well be the cause of the symptoms that my 2.4 displays. Has anyone replaced this and can tell me the approximate cost? Also was looking for info on where it is located on the Puma engine, if anyone has a photo that would be great.
I have zero confidence in the dealer mechanics to correctly diagnose these systems. If anyone can recommend a knowledgeable diesel specialist in Gippsland or eastern Melbourne, please do so. I would like to get someone to give my whole system a good going over, but there is no-one that I know of to whom I would entrust this.

[Keath]

Did a little reading and the SCV could well be the cause of the symptoms that my 2.4 displays. Has anyone replaced this and can tell me the approximate cost? Also was looking for info on where it is located on the Puma engine, if anyone has a photo that would be great.
I have zero confidence in the dealer mechanics to correctly diagnose these systems. If anyone can recommend a knowledgeable diesel specialist in Gippsland or eastern Melbourne, please do so. I would like to get someone to give my whole system a good going over, but there is no-one that I know of to whom I would entrust this.

Sounds like we are in a similar position.

Mine is going into the mechanic on Monday to get the rail pressure read, and if it's wrong, i'll get the SCV replaced.

I have a workshop manual, and despite the SCV being mentioned extensively in the diagnostic charts, there is no removal procedures i can find. However i can find one for the 'fuel metering valve' I assume this is the same thing.

I have extracted this section and attached it to this post.

I will need to confirm if my mechanic has the tool to do a fuel pump re-learn after the installation.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Listening with much interest!
My 08 Puma has just started displaying the exact symptoms at 100,000k's.
Intermittent throttle response loss and idle hunting.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Here's a link showing the same problem cured by replacing the VCV

Defender VCV - Volume Control Valve - 4x4 Community Forum (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php't=219226)

[n plus one]

Listening with much interest!
My 08 Puma has just started displaying the exact symptoms at 100,000k's.
Intermittent throttle response loss and idle hunting.

It's a quick fix, but you need to be able to do a pump learn. I bought a valve off Fleabay (from a diese mob in WA) was about $300, but then dropped $1,000 to buy the gear to do the pump learn myself. An independent workshop could have done the learn for me for a couple of hundred bucks, but I wanted to have access to diagnostic equipment for longer trips so I bought my own instead.

[Keath]

It's a quick fix, but you need to be able to do a pump learn. I bought a valve off Fleabay (from a diese mob in WA) was about $300, but then dropped $1,000 to buy the gear to do the pump learn myself. An independent workshop could have done the learn for me for a couple of hundred bucks, but I wanted to have access to diagnostic equipment for longer trips so I bought my own instead.

I just called land rover in Geelong and they quoted me $90 to do the pump learn. If my mechanic's tool can't do it then i will just take it there.

I wish i had the spare cash to buy a tool to do it myself, but not at the moment.

Just curious, which tool did you go for?

[POD]

Looks like this is the thing to check, I finished a night shift this morning and the 130 didn't want to go home, intermittent throttle response and near-stalling as I came out of the driveway.
The file with the workshop manual extract states pressures can be up to 29,008 PSI!!!
I have just sent my nanocom back to Cyprus for repair, don't know if it is capable of the 'pump learn' function but I'm not expecting to see it again for a couple of months. Looks like I'll have to shell out to someone to do this bit, I hate surrendering the vehicle to others to have work done as I usually end up doing it again myself anyway. Took it to the nearest LR dealer when I bought it and the mechanic didn't even know where the fuel filter was.

[Keath]

Looks like this is the thing to check, I finished a night shift this morning and the 130 didn't want to go home, intermittent throttle response and near-stalling as I came out of the driveway.
The file with the workshop manual extract states pressures can be up to 29,008 PSI!!!
I have just sent my nanocom back to Cyprus for repair, don't know if it is capable of the 'pump learn' function but I'm not expecting to see it again for a couple of months. Looks like I'll have to shell out to someone to do this bit, I hate surrendering the vehicle to others to have work done as I usually end up doing it again myself anyway. Took it to the nearest LR dealer when I bought it and the mechanic didn't even know where the fuel filter was.

I got a message from Colin from Nanocom regarding this issue, and unfortunately it's not possible on the 2.4 engine, however i think it may be on the 2.2.

[n plus one]

I just called land rover in Geelong and they quoted me $90 to do the pump learn. If my mechanic's tool can't do it then i will just take it there.

I wish i had the spare cash to buy a tool to do it myself, but not at the moment.

Just curious, which tool did you go for?

I bought a Faultmate II from BBS, would have got a Nanocom but they can't do the pump learn.

[Keath]

Alright so took her in to get the fuel rail pressure tested, it was reading 23,500 K Pa at idle which is apparently fine?

I just bit the bullet and purchased a new Denso valve from a fleabay seller for $175 which I think is very reasonable, especially since the same valve from Land Rover is upwards of $400!!

Will fit it and relearn the pump next week and hopefully my issue will be resolved!

[Keath]

For anyone that is interested.

I finally got the new SCV fitted and a relearn completed yesterday, and the issue seems to have been resolved!

Car idles fine when cold or warm and there is a lot less white smoke. There is still some however on very first start on the cold morning, but it disappears when the engine warms up.

I will post on here again if anything changes in the future, but as of now, I do recommend that anyone who is experiencing similar issues to myself look into fitting a new valve.

All up it cost me about $350 for the part, installation and pump relearn.

[Chops]

Thanks for the info Keath, who'd you get to fit/learn for you, LR or a private mechanic?

[Keath]

I supplied the part and got Highbury Automotive in Burwood to install/ learn the pump as I have been there before and they are LR specialists.

[POD]

So I take it that the vehicle will run tolerably in between changing the valve and having the 'pump learn' performed? This has been putting me off doing anything as I thought the vehicle would be disabled. Mine is getting worse on these freezing mornings, cut out at idle 4 times this morning. I need to find someone who can do the learn thingamajig, still wondering if anyone can recommend a diesel expert anywhere from Dandenong to Gippsland?

[strange_rover1]

Heya guys,


I am having a similar issue as described in this thread, with an erratic idle and a random loss of throttle response when driving. The only extra symptom I am having is that during the loss of throttle response my temperature gauge goes all the way to the top and then comes straight back to normal and then I get throttle response back??? I ran the live data on the Hawkeye Pro while driving today and when the throttle loss and temp up came on the actual temp on the ECU did not rise, it stayed on a steady 113 C. does anyone have any ideas?? Could it be the same fault as you have had and this fault is somehow causing the temp to read high??


Cheers


Shano

[n plus one]

Heya guys,


I am having a similar issue as described in this thread, with an erratic idle and a random loss of throttle response when driving. The only extra symptom I am having is that during the loss of throttle response my temperature gauge goes all the way to the top and then comes straight back to normal and then I get throttle response back??? I ran the live data on the Hawkeye Pro while driving today and when the throttle loss and temp up came on the actual temp on the ECU did not rise, it stayed on a steady 113 C. does anyone have any ideas?? Could it be the same fault as you have had and this fault is somehow causing the temp to read high??


Cheers


Shano

113 degrees is actually a very high coolant temp (that you should probably only see flogging up big hills on a hot day) - while I've never got a definitive answer, my recollection is that overheat limp mode kicks in at either 114 or 116 degrees (coolant temp not cylinder head temp). The temp guage is also normalised between around 75 degrees and 115 degrees (give or take) and will then head north rapidly.

My first blush reading is that you have a genuine over heating issue - have you checked your coolant levels lately?

Edit: Also, I think there's a main relay issue that might affect the temp guage too but can't remember the details off hand.