Child Restraints in 110 Puma

[jc109]

G'day all,

Sorry, as I know this general topic has almost been done to death, but I can't seem to find anything specifically addressing this.

I want to put my child's seat in my (five seater) 110 Puma, and I'm obviously interested in doing so safely so am investigating the usual options such as CRABs, etc., but I can't help thinking that this is all over the top.

What I'd love to do is fabricate something (steel strap?) to fit to the rear of the Milford cargo barrier at approximately the same height as the seats, and to then fit the supplied anchor point to that. Given the loads that the cargo barrier is meant to take, is there any reason why that would not be a perfectly sound solution?

Cheers,

James

[loneranger]

I'd think you'll find if you manufacture something yourself it will need to be engineered certified for compliance purposes.

[jc109]

Yeah, so I guess what I'm asking is whether or not this could be considered a solid enough solution to satisfy an engineer. Assuming of course that I can find an independent engineer rather than someone who just wants to sell me parts and labour for the 'professional' version.

And certification is only required for insurance purposes, right?

[alien]

The question I'd ask is do you think the Milford barrier is mounted securely enough to hold your child's seat securely if it's involved in an accident?
Barriers only stop items moving forward generally, I don't think they are designed for sideways twisting such as rollovers.


We had a CRAB bar and seperate cargo barrier made up to suit our draw set up.
With the aim of stealing our grandson for weekends it wasn't some thing I was prepared to do wrong.
Certification to me=registration, insurance, piece of mind.

[Simon]

If it helps with your choices mine is a fabricated bar that follows the shape, and mounts above, the rear door. It bolts into existing points, only need minor cuts to the trim. The restraint belt does run through the load space but high up so out of the way unless you are loading to the ceiling. Fully engineered, Daniel (Mulgo) made it for us, very happy with it

Simon

[mojo]

I have a vague recollection of someone using their cargo barrier for a child restraint. Let me see if I can find the thread ...

[mojo]

Here's the thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/83124-finally-got-defender-3.html#post1075403

Cheers
Sean

[DiscoMick]

Could a restraint anchor be bolted to the floor using an existing bolt for the seat? Just a thought...

[alien]

Could a restraint anchor be bolted to the floor using an existing bolt for the seat? Just a thought...
I asked this and got told the internal seat frame is not strong enough,
It would be a far cheaper option.


There was a thread of an internal plate being wield into the seat frame.
The trim was modified so the child anchor bolt could bolt into the plate.
A Sydney based firm from memory.


Ranga's(Mojo's link) looks like a CRAB bar with a barrier added, quite a neat idea.

[jc109]

Thanks for the help so far guys. Sean, I appreciate the link. I was thinking of something a lot more rudimentary, so that's some good food for thought.

I've done some investigating with various places around the Perth area, and the advice so far has been that a CRAB is the only option. I take that with a grain of salt given that each Type 2 Fitter also happens to be a vendor and has a vested interest in getting you to go for the (up to, so far) $1300 option.

Alien, I get what you're saying about peace of mind, but I was really just looking at hypotheticals. I'm not one to swallow the first thing I hear on a topic, and ultimately I would probably get something 'engineered' anyway, but I was after some advice on what would work, regs aside. I could then chase certification on my solution later (and before putting it to use).

[shanegtr]

Just a couple of extracts from WA DOT:
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/LBU_VS_IB_118.pdf


Obviously some of these fitting stations could approve your own work, maybe if you chat to them about your requirements they may approve what you do providing it meets their standards

[cal415]

As mentioned earlier there is a place in Sydney that modifies the standard seats, adds a plate and child restraint mount, all engineered and legal. One of the guys i work with had it down to is 110 Puma, it looked factory.

Unfortunately, i cant remember the name of the place, all i know is it is right near a LR dealership down there.

That being said i made my own in the 130 with advice from a local engineer, quite simple and way stronger then most cars would have.

[EastFreo]

Was it this place?

Additional Anchor Points | As Snug As A Bug (http://www.assnugasabug.com.au/additional-anchor-points)

Scroll down and there is a Defender.

[blackapache]

G'day all,

Sorry, as I know this general topic has almost been done to death, but I can't seem to find anything specifically addressing this.

I want to put my child's seat in my (five seater) 110 Puma, and I'm obviously interested in doing so safely so am investigating the usual options such as CRABs, etc., but I can't help thinking that this is all over the top.

What I'd love to do is fabricate something (steel strap?) to fit to the rear of the Milford cargo barrier at approximately the same height as the seats, and to then fit the supplied anchor point to that. Given the loads that the cargo barrier is meant to take, is there any reason why that would not be a perfectly sound solution?

Cheers,

James

Ive done this in my 110. It wasn't engineered but I am an engineering student if that helps ha ha

So i got some 8mm flat bar (mild steel) and had it cut to length and welded across the length of the cage i had holes tapped in it for the mounts. If you look at those bars they offer two mounting points only the cage offers 4-6 points of contact depending on your cage so its a no brainer really.

legally it should be engineer certified, mine wasnt. I had a mobile child seat installer come and help me install them, he never said a word about it.

The hardest part of the whole operation is getting the seats in its a 2 man job and its very very tight!

Be sure and adjust the seat straps and mock the whole thing up for height i just eyeballed mine using my patent pending eye-crometers and ended up with 2 pieces of flat bar welded to my frame... its super strong now ;)

( truth be told i put the seats in the wrong order - who listens when the wife speaks anyways? - so had to shuffle and hence redo the job )

[DiscoMick]

I asked this and got told the internal seat frame is not strong enough,
It would be a far cheaper option.


There was a thread of an internal plate being wield into the seat frame.
The trim was modified so the child anchor bolt could bolt into the plate.
A Sydney based firm from memory.


Ranga's(Mojo's link) looks like a CRAB bar with a barrier added, quite a neat idea.

Obviously, I'm not understanding. If the anchor is bolted to the floor on the same bolt as the seat base, what difference does the strength of the seat frame make, as it's not carrying the weight, which is going to the bolt in the floor?


Another idea I have seen is to bolt a belt clip to the inside of the body above the rear door of the wagon and then run a long strap to it, but this has the disadvantage of meaning the strap has to run across the full load area.

[noyakfat]

there is a place in Sydney that modifies the standard seats, adds a plate and child restraint mount, all engineered and legal.

I think you guys are referring to Comptune Engineering, in Narellan. I intend visiting these guys in the next few months to have them fit-up my 110. My little boy is almost 4 months old now, so we're going to start him into the off-road life soon :)

[cal415]

Thats the one, Comptune!

[DiscoMick]

Can't you use child seats which are held by seatbelts?

[EastFreo]

Where I struggle with this is the child seats are largely held by seat belts and to my mind the anchor is just a supplementary tether point.

I know it isn't legal but I have just hooked mine back on the mount of the third row seats. However my second child is now in a booster seat so I can more easily get away with it.

[shanegtr]

Can't you use child seats which are held by seatbelts?There's only a select few booster seats that have no tether requirements, but the child will need to be using the seat belt to restrain themselves and the seat. All rear facing seats and forward facing seats with harness and the majority of booster seats all require the use of a tether strap

[frantic]

I think you guys are referring to Comptune Engineering, in Narellan. I intend visiting these guys in the next few months to have them fit-up my 110. My little boy is almost 4 months old now, so we're going to start him into the off-road life soon :)

I saw the fitted bolts in a defender by them a few years ago, they where picking up stuff at mulgo same time as me:D. They look like a factory fit, similar to the pic in snug as a bug. Unfortunately I have a 02 td5 110 so have the crab bar which is a pita whenever you need to load a long item with seats folded forward. The seats with bolts are 10 secs, a crab bar to remove is 10-15 min of stuffing around, then same to put back.

[landy]

could you make up some flat bar say 8-10mm that runs across the rear floor and is effectively sandwiched between the seat belt anchor points and the seat belt eyes. Then attach the child restraint points to the flat bar at the desired locations to suit the seat positions.
Surely if the seat belt anchor point will restrain a full size adult they will hold a 30kg child?

[jc109]

So i got some 8mm flat bar (mild steel) and had it cut to length and welded across the length of the cage i had holes tapped in it for the mounts. If you look at those bars they offer two mounting points only the cage offers 4-6 points of contact depending on your cage so its a no brainer really.

legally it should be engineer certified, mine wasnt. I had a mobile child seat installer come and help me install them, he never said a word about it.


I was thinking of something along similar lines, but figured I'd bolt it to the barrier rather than welding. And by bolting I mean fixing it with a plate on the other side, as opposed to drilling into the frame as I suspect that would weaken the barrier.

[shanegtr]

And certification is only required for insurance purposes, right?
If your involved in a crash and someone is killed or seriously injured do to an uncertified anchor point I think insurance will be the last thing on your mind.

[jc109]

If your involved in a crash and someone is killed or seriously injured do to an uncertified anchor point I think insurance will be the last thing on your mind.

Exactly! Which is why I said this in my original post:


...I'm obviously interested in doing so safely...

It's fair enough to pick up on that query, but it doesn't really reflect my intentions. That was asked while trying to gain a full understanding of the process. At no point have I stated that I will not bother having the final product certified.

I'm simply not convinced that the off-the-shelf solutions are all that can be done, and many of the responses here support that view.

With the exception of one reasonable and considered remark regarding roll-overs (although I'm skeptical given the actual arrangement in my vehicle), the naysayers so far seem to be focused on certification and the merits of a ready-made item. I'm after some more critical advice on other home-made solutions that I suspect might be just as good, if done properly and with the advice of intelligent and experienced people such as found in this forum.

I'm just not all that convinced that a >$1000 obstruction in the rear of my vehicle is the only solution.

And IF a home-made solution seems to be the go, then I'd pursue certification.

[jc109]

And may I suggest the following alternative to your comment above?


If your involved in a crash and someone is killed or seriously injured due to a faulty or inadequate anchor point, that happens to be uncertified, I think insurance will be the last thing on your mind.

[shanegtr]

Fair call, I reckon if your keen to do your own, then skip all the guys who sell/install anchor points and talk directly to an automotive engineer. Theres a list of them in this doco:
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/mediaFiles/licensing/LBU_VS_IB_102.pdf
They of course will charge for the privilege of approving your installation, but at least they can sign it off and all should be legal and to your design/ideas
The aus standard for anchor points:
https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2012L00703

[jc109]

Cheers Shane.

[shanegtr]

No worries at all. Apologies if I was coming across the wrong way previously, I take the safety of my kids fairly seriously in the car, which unfortunately was put to the test last year.
For the record I had wesbar install 2 anchor points in the 3rd row of my disco and they where cheaper to get installed than a single extra point in my old 80 series that TL engineering did.

[loneranger]

Out of interest has anyone ever fitted child restraints to a 90 or only in a 110?