The philosophical 2018 Land Rover Series VI / Defender / 'Icon'...

[MrLandy]

Dear Pat and all other true believers...

The mythical 2018 Land Rover Series VI / Defender / 'Icon' might yet shift paradigms...

"The root of the verb 'rove' is said to be obscure . As obscure, in fact, as that of the French verb rever (to dream), which originally meant the same : to rove. Now, if darkness is that which may contain anything, including knowledge , it also enables humans to dream ; and since Plato says in the Timaios that the place (chora) of relative being (genesis) is like a dream, I shall suppose that the knowledge of it, also, is like a dream, and I shall let the Land Rover drive me there." Augustin Berque.

..to 'Rove' is to find, not to seek. This is the antithesis of the dominant modern-world approach. ...Perhaps we are learning patience and this is the truly enlightened wisdom from LR in not rushing to conclusion about the next series/defender/icon vehicle? Is it too much to ask? ...A revolutionary slowing of modernity, in the face of instant gratification! Could it be? That an awesome new icon takes time!! Now that would be definitive!

Cheers...

[tact]

Sorry. But this has to be said:


:ttiwwp:

[PAT303]

Dear Pat and all other true believers...

The mythical 2018 Land Rover Series VI / Defender / 'Icon' might yet shift paradigms...

"The root of the verb 'rove' is said to be obscure . As obscure, in fact, as that of the French verb rever (to dream), which originally meant the same : to rove. Now, if darkness is that which may contain anything, including knowledge , it also enables humans to dream ; and since Plato says in the Timaios that the place (chora) of relative being (genesis) is like a dream, I shall suppose that the knowledge of it, also, is like a dream, and I shall let the Land Rover drive me there." Augustin Berque.

..to 'Rove' is to find, not to seek. This is the antithesis of the dominant modern-world approach. ...Perhaps we are learning patience and this is the truly enlightened wisdom from LR in not rushing to conclusion about the next series/defender/icon vehicle? Is it too much to ask? ...A revolutionary slowing of modernity, in the face of instant gratification! Could it be? That an awesome new icon takes time!! Now that would be definitive!

Cheers...

Buy a Toyota. Pat

[Disco Muppet]

Isn't that kind of what we've been saying ever since this debate started?

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[pop058]

Isn't that kind of what we've been saying ever since this debate started?

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What MrLandy said or what Pat said :angel:

[Disco Muppet]

Mr Landy's last paragraph :D
Although Pat's works too :angel:

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[Summiitt]

I'm that close to buying a cruiser it makes me sick.. Bid on a 2002 4.2td patrol ute last week.. The lads at work are worried I've lost my marbles, as non Landy blokes, they have come to love them as company Utes..I hope the new defenders win me over Mr Landy!!

[PAT303]

A bloke I work with just sold his 79 series and bought a Ranger,he told me this morning he'd catch a bus before owning another one,most costly POS he's ever owned. Pat

[Cammo]

The 79 or the ranger?

[MrLandy]

I'm that close to buying a cruiser it makes me sick.. Bid on a 2002 4.2td patrol ute last week.. The lads at work are worried I've lost my marbles, as non Landy blokes, they have come to love them as company Utes..I hope the new defenders win me over Mr Landy!!

Yeah me too Summitt, I hate driving Toyotas, have done for years for work. Bad for your back, bad for your wallet, bad for intended purpose both on and off road. Would never buy one myself.

[PAT303]

The 79 or the ranger?

The 79,seems they aren't made for Australian conditions,he lives in Bunbury :angel:. Pat

[MrLandy]

...if to Rove is to wander and find, what is it to 'cruise'?...

To quote Berque once more... "the Four-Wheel Drive Toyota Land Cruiser parked in front of the Cottage proclaims in bold letters on the cover of its prominent spare wheel (the emblem of wilderness), INTO THE NATURE!"

"The fastest growing category of vehicles in rich countries [such as Australia] is the SUV (Sport and Utility Vehicle), that is the big 4WD which one uses for shopping at the mall. For any self-respecting 'Cyborg', the SUV is today an indispensable attribute of the [urban] Cottage... Indeed, the SUV enables Cyborg to assuage [his/her] structural need of desert...[it's] Cyborg's eucharistic rite, celebrating its consubstantiality with the Machine, the Market and the Desert)".

Responsibility rests with us all, whether we 'rove' or 'cruise' depends on our personal approach, and perhaps the brand and the type of vehicle we own says more about our approach in the world than we care to admit... 'each to their own' comes with it certain responsibilities regardless of how reliable or otherwise a vehicle of knowledge or conveyance might be, and also regardless of whether one identifies with - the perhaps not so mythical - Cyborg of which Berque writes.

The current trend for less capable, less robust, but more luxurious SUV's would seem to underline the idea of 'disurbanity', whereby the driver is seeking the 'look of nature' and the 'image of adventure' as more important than the actual capability to rove as an integral part of nature itself beyond urbanity.

We occupy an intriguing time, whereby the 'look of nature' seems to be becoming more important than nature itself...

[tact]

Has there ever been a time in history, or any human endeavor, in which at least some participants have not valued "the appearance" more than the actuality?

Heroic swashbuckling adventurers in powdered wigs, sitting on thrones as patrons of seagoing explorers.

"Peel me another grape", Caesars bravely ordering empire extending sieges from their grand resorts.

MacArthur in his knife edge creases gallantly romping in after the sun fell from the flag saying "I'll be Bach..." Oh wait - that was Arnie.

Of course there is no attempt at historic accuracy in the above. Your imagination will be better than mine so you will have gotten the point.

I.e. It's hardly an intriguing time now, nor a new concept regards any human endeavor - but let me cite a witness for the "nature" case specifically: well before the SUV phenomenon existed, may I call the "Marlboro Man" to the stand.

The wilderness, mountains, on horseback full of machismo. You don't need the horse, nor the mustache, nor the campfire, nor an SUV dare I say. You just need to smoke Marlboro.

Signing off to the words of Mick Jagger in the song Satisfaction (I can't get no), "...he can't be a man because he doesn't smoke, the same cigarettes as me." (About advertising and image and "...how white my shirts can be")

[cuppabillytea]

I was enjoying that rove until the devils advocate showed up.

[tact]

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste

[Disco Muppet]

Pleased to meet you.
Hope you guess my name ;)

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[cuppabillytea]

Do Doooooo Do Doooooo. You love it don't you Neil?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

This whole thread is waffle.

It won't be a successor to the utilitarian Land Rover unless it feels right to drill holes into it and fit brackets. ;)

I love the series and coiler (Perentie and Defender) Land Rovers I have in my fleet, but lets make no bones about it, my D4 is more sure footed than any standard 110 and much more pleasant to drive before you get "off road" or as most of us do "off highway".

It won't surprise me if the (L660) next generation utilitarian Land Rover is on a similar platform to the D4 or RRS, but if it is it shouldn't be called Defender.

As for Toyo-issa-eep-bishi-ord, you don't see as many of their old and ancient models still on the road as you do with Land Rover which says everything doesn't it!

[tact]

Do Doooooo Do Doooooo. You love it don't you Neil?

Love it? Nah. But I like it, like it, yes I do.

[cuppabillytea]

He he Yes well, now that I'm comprehensively Stoned, I think that MrLandie and Lotz-A-Landies are on a parallel path to the money in a roundabout sort of way.

[tact]

This whole thread is waffle.

Well that's at the OP's discretion. Nothing wrong with indulging some waffle.



It won't surprise me if the (L660) next generation utilitarian Land Rover is on a similar platform to the D4 or RRS, but if it is it shouldn't be called Defender.


Wouldn't be the first time in the series/defender lineage that more modern RR underpinnings were incorporated.

Back to the waffle. It's fun enough.

[tact]

He he Yes well, now that I'm comprehensively Stoned, I think that MrLandie and Lotz-A-Landies are on a parallel path to the money in a roundabout sort of way.

Roll one for me mate, so I can see it that way too.

[cuppabillytea]

Roll one for me mate, so I can see it that way too.
OK. But, don't get the giggles, the munchies, or the waffles.:twisted:

[MrLandy]

Yup, if a D4 is "...more pleasant to drive before you get "off road" or as most of us do "off highway", doesn't that make it a car? Or at best a soft roader?

Some nice banter there tact, not waffle. You nearly had me with the Marlboro Man. Image before function and all. But ultimately you are simply confirming the genesis of the trend. And then LotzaLandies answered the question definitively (above) ...the era of pragmatic hose out bolt together Defenders is over. Agreed, the Marlboro Man image priority has absolutely taken over.

...I'm not sure who decided that market share was the defining characteristic of anything? Usually it means mainstream averageness. ie: Toyota. A hand-made Defender will outclass any mass produced vehicle, that's partly where the elusive Defender character comes from. It's like the difference between real art and a poster. And it's also better for the environment regardless of emissions, simply because it is rebuildable and not disposable.

We are indeed perhaps more defined than we realise by the vehicles we choose to guide us into the wilderness.

[Disco Muppet]

Yes, everyone who has a defender, much like yourself, is a bearded Lord of true adventure and pioneering spirit and shall inherit the earth, while all range rover and discovery drivers are merely soft roading, luxo barge steering toffs who will fall apart with our plastic vehicles.
We get the picture, in fact I'm fairly sure I've seen this show before. Can we change the channel?

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[MrLandy]

The philosophies behind the end of an icon are not so easily dismissed by many, but by all means grab the remote any time you like. 📱😊

[tact]

Surely it doesn't matter what's going on under the floor. D4/RRS undercarriage, whatever... Surely a version can be made that can be still hosed out inside.

And the mass market appeal of the version with plastic bumpers and carpets...sold for a fist full of dollars more - well it can subsidies those like me who want that flat metal floor with rubber mats instead

Sheesh my 2013 TDCi doesn't even have those plastic end caps on the front bumper. Some folks have them - but live and let live I say.

[tact]

OK. But, don't get the giggles, the munchies, or the waffles.:twisted:

Mmmmmm, waffles. I'm toked... I mean stoked.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

Yup, if a D4 is "...more pleasant to drive before you get "off road" or as most of us do "off highway", doesn't that make it a car? Or at best a soft roader?

....Firstly and importantly, The D4 is no soft roader. I have gone away with Defender 110 wagons that are slipping and sliding in the rear end as they cross bumps and ruts, on the same hill the D4 makes it almost look like you're still on bitumen. To the extent that several members on the trip started to not take pictures of my Disco because it made the obstacle look easy when compared to their Defenders*.

Now tell me that a D4 is a soft roader!

* I wouldn't be so arrogant to suggest it may have been an element of the liveware behind the wheel picking the correct line.
Surely it doesn't matter what's going on under the floor. D4/RRS undercarriage, whatever... Surely a version can be made that can be still hosed out inside.

And the mass market appeal of the version with plastic bumpers and carpets...sold for a fist full of dollars more - well it can subsidies those like me who want that flat metal floor with rubber mats instead ...
They already make commercial "Poverty pack" variants of the D4, just they don't sell them in Australia. Maybe it will reduce the premium brand Land Rover have in Australia. Isn't that why the Evoque is badged a Range Rover and not Land Rover?

[tact]

They already make commercial "Poverty pack" variants of the D4, just they don't sell them in Australia.

As in no footwell, flat floor? No carpets? No door sills & trim? D4?

Have never been inside a D4. I test drove a then brand new TD5 Disco many years ago, on road and off-road on a course Land Rover organised in a construction site. I only have a vague recollection of the TD5 Disco. Thought it very good off-road despite being showroom stock standard. Threw it deliberately into the worst choice lines and it handled all very well. Luxurious. Great on the road with active cornering technology etc. bought a Hilux instead as I couldn't stand the idea of getting mud on the Disco, or in it on the carpets

These are the things I like about my defender. After a muddy trip there is mud and muddy scuff marks on door cards, floor, inside firewall, lower parts of the dash, back of the front seats, all round the front seat boxes. I can hose out and scrub with a coarse brush. Cleaning done fast. No footwells so water just runs out the doors.

[rar110]

It won't surprise me if the (L660) next generation utilitarian Land Rover is on a similar platform to the D4 or RRS, but if it is it shouldn't be called Defender.

That's probably something like people said when the 110/130 followed the RRC and got coil suspension with disc brakes.

I agree, the new Defender has to be as capable off road as a D4. That means EAS & TR. It won't be as capable if it ends up being an oversized beefed up version of a discovery sport with dual transfer on coils with TR.

LR demonstrated their propensity to release new models based on pre-existing platforms when the Evoque and DIsco Sport followed the Freelander 2. I think I t's likely they will adapt the D4 into a squarer bodied more spartan Defender, with possibly a new motor and box. Just after the all new D5.

It's like waiting for an Apple WWDC.

[MrLandy]

...a very salient point Tact, I wonder if the 'new' Defender designers have even considered the advantage of flat floors/no footwells! Well said. ...also I doubt the fantastic upright, feet flat on the floor, seating position will be retained.

[ezyrama]

A bloke I work with just sold his 79 series and bought a Ranger,he told me this morning he'd catch a bus before owning another one,most costly POS he's ever owned. Pat

A mate of mine just traded his Ranger and bought a toymota cruiser dual cab, hates it with a passion, says it could pull a scab of a burst pimple. Noisy, and slow when towing his trailer. Paid close to 7th for it and wants to go back to the Ranger after a week. I think I saw a new 130 at local dealer today we I picked up the Tardis, I thought production ended in march , April?

[Lotz-A-Landies]

That's probably something like people said when the 110/130 followed the RRC and got coil suspension with disc brakes.

I agree, the new Defender has to be as capable off road as a D4. That means EAS & TR. It won't be as capable if it ends up being an oversized beefed up version of a discovery sport with dual transfer on coils with TR.

LR demonstrated their propensity to release new models based on pre-existing platforms when the Evoque and DIsco Sport followed the Freelander 2. I think I t's likely they will adapt the D4 into a squarer bodied more spartan Defender, with possibly a new motor and box. Just after the all new D5.

It's like waiting for an Apple WWDC.Firstly the 110/130 didn't follow the RRc, they followed the SIII Stage 1 and Stage 2 or at least the 90/110 did (and to be more pedantic the 130 followed the coil sprung 120). Range Rover (classic shape) predated the SIII and I know no one who said that about the coil sprung iconic Land Rover shape, and I was there at the time in the LROCS owning both a Series IIa 109 and Range Rover.

IMHO the 90/110 should have followed the Series IIa Land Rover and bypassed the Series III altogether. Rover Co. Ltd/BLMC had all the technology to build the 90/110 in 1971, but they wasted time and their market dominance by building the pathetic by comparison SIII.

[PAT303]

So in a nutshell this thread has worked out the following.
#1. D4's are soft roaders driven by try hards with small members
#2. The new defender will be a soft roader driven by try hards with small members (see post #1)
#3. Land Rover is run by idiots who couldn't design a toaster,and have small members
#4. If current model defender owners were any tougher they'd rust,and all have 10'' members.
#5. Too many people on here have too much time on their hands,or they spend too much time playing with their members.
Pat

[tact]

So in a nutshell this thread has worked out the following.
#1. D4's are soft roaders driven by try hards with small members
#2. The new defender will be a soft roader driven by try hards with small members (see post #1)
#3. Land Rover is run by idiots who couldn't design a toaster,and have small members
#4. If current model defender owners were any tougher they'd rust,and all have 10'' members.
#5. Too many people on here have too much time on their hands,or they spend too much time playing with their members.
Pat

:Rolling:

#6. If you drive a Landy you'd be better off in a l'cruiser
#7. If you go to a l'cruiser you'll wish you had a Ranger instead

[MrLandy]

:wallbash::wallbash::lol2:

[MrLandy]

...or that there's no perceivable difference, character trait, capability or special feeling to be derived from driving different types of Land Rovers? They're all pretty much the same. :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

So in a nutshell this thread has worked out the following.
#1. D4's are soft roaders driven by try hards with small members
#2. The new defender will be a soft roader driven by try hards with small members (see post #1)
#3. Land Rover is run by idiots who couldn't design a toaster,and have small members
#4. If current model defender owners were any tougher they'd rust,and all have 10'' members.
#5. Too many people on here have too much time on their hands,or they spend too much time playing with their members.
PatSomeone thinks too much about genitals and not Land Rovers me thinks.

[tact]

...or that there's no perceivable difference, character trait, capability or special feeling to be derived from driving different types of Land Rovers? They're all pretty much the same. :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

"Upgrade" to a Ranger, do not pass GO and do not get a cruiser first.

[MrLandy]

"Upgrade" to a Ranger, do not pass GO and do not get a cruiser first.

An A-Squad Pink Power Ranger from the Troobian Empire.

[cuppabillytea]

So in a nutshell this thread has worked out the following.
#1. D4's are soft roaders driven by try hards with small members
#2. The new defender will be a soft roader driven by try hards with small members (see post #1)
#3. Land Rover is run by idiots who couldn't design a toaster,and have small members
#4. If current model defender owners were any tougher they'd rust,and all have 10'' members.
#5. Too many people on here have too much time on their hands,or they spend too much time playing with their members.
Pat
The good Burgers of Lillyfield are revolting! You left them out.:eek::wasntme:

[MrLandy]

It's amazing what you find when you're roving around, isn't it?

[cuppabillytea]

Necessity is the Mother of Invention.( No lines from Frank Zappa please Neil.) If all of the cushier urban friendly options are already covered by the RR, Disco, Freelander, Evoke etc, There is no point making another one. If the Defender replacement isn't intended to be more Defender than the Defender it's self, then in 2018, nothing will happen.

[MrLandy]

You'd think so wouldnt you Billy. ...It's quite a paradox though because it was when Toyota introduced the 60 series Land Cruiser, that Land Rover lost out to a more comfortable wagon! Now LR look like making nothing but comfy wagons and losing out in the Heavy Duty work vehicle sector!

[tact]

Necessity is the Mother of Invention.( No lines from Frank Zappa please Neil.)

Ok. Grant you some backing there. But can I suggest that "Lust is the Father of Innovation".

Some innovations would be nice to see regards the new defender.

[cuppabillytea]

You'd think so wouldnt you Billy. ...It's quite a paradox though because it was when Toyota introduced the 60 series Land Cruiser, that Land Rover lost out to a more comfortable wagon! Now LR look like making nothing but comfy wagons and losing out in the Heavy Duty work vehicle sector!
Hmmmm....Do they though?

[cuppabillytea]

Ok. Grant you some backing there. But can I suggest that "Lust is the Father of Innovation".

Some innovations would be nice to see regards the new defender.
You can. It would and you probably will.......I hope.

[PAT303]

You'd think so wouldnt you Billy. ...It's quite a paradox though because it was when Toyota introduced the 60 series Land Cruiser, that Land Rover lost out to a more comfortable wagon! Now LR look like making nothing but comfy wagons and losing out in the Heavy Duty work vehicle sector!

Buy a Toyota. Pat

[MrLandy]

Hmmmm....Do they though?

What do you think Cuppa? Do you think the core philosophy of the Defender will live on? The feel of driving one, that is like nothing else. Will it have flat hose out floors, rock solid chassis, vertical seating position, be agricultural? Or will it try to be all things to all people like all other new 4WD's?

[cuppabillytea]

What do you think Cuppa? Do you think the core philosophy of the Defender will live on? The feel of driving one, that is like nothing else. Will it have flat hose out floors, rock solid chassis, vertical seating position, be agricultural? Or will it try to be all things to all people like all other new 4WD's?
It has to be what LR need it to be and that is the conduit that brings the heritage and most importantly the highly capable, versatile and durable vehicle credibility, to the rest of their fleet.
One would think that that would be a no nonsense vehicle with minimal bells and whistles, in which you could travel all day over any terrain without becoming crippled.
I don't think it will be borrowing another vehicles platform because they're giving themselves until 2018 to get to production. I do think that the platform that it is built on will be designed to lend it's self to development and innovation.
I don't think you can design in the charm factors such as Defender possesses nor should it be attempted. That will come with the end result...or not.
In my humble opinion if it does not approximate what I have described it will be an exercise in futility. They'll toss a great swag of cash down the drain and it will be back to the drawing board.

[PAT303]

I've heard the next defender will be front wheel drive only,no four wheel drive at all,apparently because it's being built on the D4 chassis,everyone knows the D4 is a soft roader,we know it's a fact because a sun bleached weathered large penised current model defender owner on here said so,so Land Rover don't see the need for four wheel drive when they will only be driven in cities by latte sipping metro sexuals with little penis's. Pat

[MrLandy]

It has to be what LR need it to be and that is the conduit that brings the heritage and most importantly the highly capable, versatile and durable vehicle credibility, to the rest of their fleet.
One would think that that would be a no nonsense vehicle with minimal bells and whistles, in which you could travel all day over any terrain without becoming crippled.
I don't think it will be borrowing another vehicles platform because they're giving themselves until 2018 to get to production. I do think that the platform that it is built on will be designed to lend it's self to development and innovation.
I don't think you can design in the charm factors such as Defender possesses nor should it be attempted.

I hope your right! 😊 ...apparently some think it will be two wheel drive... :Rolling:

[cuppabillytea]

I hope your right! 😊 ...apparently some think it will be two wheel drive... :Rolling:
Yeh bring back the MOKE.:arms:

[MrLandy]

Yeh bring back the MOKE.:arms:

That's it! ...I can hear it now...
"Did you buy the new Defender?"
..."Nah, I bought a Moke".

[PAT303]

Fishings been quiet,not a single bite :p. Pat

[tact]

Fishings been quiet,not a single bite :p. Pat

Your soft roader and small penises meme has gone flaccid. Probably a good thing though.

We should get more hard core philosophically speaking (in a philosophical thread): setting aside waffle and speculation around whether there will be latte holders in the new Defender, setting aside the likely penis size of owners...

Do you think, Pat, the new Defender will follow the technology philosophy to off-road capability? Ie will it give hardly any focus or thought to old school solid axles and articulation? Instead focus on superb traction control or torque vectoring "to get you there"?

[cuppabillytea]

What's this tasty looking fly doing in the water.
To return to the OP for a moment. The Rover Company had been around for 70 years and Rover Cars, for 44 years before the Land Rover was borne so it's probably drawing a long bow to suggest that roving ever had anything to do with the Philosophy, if any, behind the original or subsequent Land Rover concepts.
It's probably also fair to say that Genital Dimensional parameters were not considered either, given the design of the cockpit. (Pardon the pun.)
So. Now we need to determine which Philosophy the Land Rover sprang from and what what Philosophy will give rise to the next generation.:confused:

[AndyG]

A desire to make a buck
A supply of war surplus scrap
The inability to draw a curve

A star is born

[JDNSW]

....... Now we need to determine which Philosophy the Land Rover sprang from and what what Philosophy will give rise to the next generation.:confused:

Any reading of the considerable literature written about Landrover introduction will make clear that the original Landrover was intended to provide a go-anywhere vehicle that was more suited to civilian use than the disposals Jeep, which was the only vehicle filling this role in the Empire in 1947 (currency restrictions meant the Willys civilianised Jeep was not an option).

This new niche market was spotted by the Wilkes brothers as an opportunity to save the company, which was facing ruin after its business model of making cars for the middle class home market was no longer viable*, faced with a new government that needed exports to recover from the costs of the war, and which, determined to make Britain into a socialist paradise, had no place for a car owning middle class.

I see no comparable driver for the company today, with their old (pre-war) business model of making cars for the middle class doing very well, thank you! Given this, it is very hard to predict just what philosophy they will adopt for the new Defender. It could be either "more of the same" (luxury cars for the middle class), or a more adventurous move into another market - they are one of the most successful and profitable car companies in the world, and although not one of the largest, they are owned by one of the largest companies in the world.

* The Wilkes brothers saved the company from ruin at the end of the 1920s by stopping trying to compete with Austin, Morris, Ford and Rootes, or with Daimler, Rolls-Royce etc, and selling to the middle class. The Rangerover in 1970 was part of this (remember that Rover cars were still well regarded then), but in the later Leyland years the Rover name was tarnished by an attempt to move into the field they left in the 1920s.

John

[MrLandy]

Thank you John. And therein lays our philosophical conundrum...what is Land Rovers motivation for a 'new Defender', other than middle class profiteering? And also our debate, as it is us who have a right to ask these questions and also to not necessarily just accept what might roll off the robotic production line with no soul. Surely if any fraternity has a right to voice their concerns or otherwise about messing with an icon, Land Rover devotees are among them.

...we are entitled to discuss the philosophy of our icon and in so doing to somewhat set its agenda. Perhaps collectively this had some bearing on a delayed 2018 release, perhaps not. Regardless, it remains the core question, as John and CuppBT have so eruditely identified; What is the PURPOSE of a new Defender? What actually, is its reason for being today? What is the philosophy that will continue to set Defender apart from all the others in an era of rampant homogenisation?

Dare I suggest, perhaps profit taking is not the role in the world, of an icon.

[tact]

Who makes an iconic vehicle? Not the manufacturer, it is the users over decades.

I.e. The Wilkes boys didn't doodle in the sand a design answering the question "what would make an iconic vehicle"?

The makers build something they thought had a market, filled a present need, I.e. Sellable. The then present need was for a farm tractor that could be multitasked a bit.

Purchasers/users then exploited/adapted the vehicle for use in ways never conceived by the designers. Over decades it became iconic.

Whatever Land Rover build as a replacement for the Defender - they won't be building an icon. It may become iconic, in time. It may not.

Whatever they build will be as per the original - a vehicle to fill a specific market need, and turn a dollar.

Talk of rights to influence how a manufacturer messes with an icon is irrelevant. The icon has been put to bed. Hopefully what replaces the existing icon, will itself one day become an icon.

[PAT303]

Your soft roader and small penises meme has gone flaccid. Probably a good thing though.

We should get more hard core philosophically speaking (in a philosophical thread): setting aside waffle and speculation around whether there will be latte holders in the new Defender, setting aside the likely penis size of owners...

Do you think, Pat, the new Defender will follow the technology philosophy to off-road capability? Ie will it give hardly any focus or thought to old school solid axles and articulation? Instead focus on superb traction control or torque vectoring "to get you there"?

What do I think?,I think you blokes should get a hobby and stop talking about something you know nothing about ;).As already posted over and over and over again Land Rover was going to make the defender on the T5 platform,the D3-4,that was dropped and the vehicle redesigned with live axles,the reason it's delayed till 2018.Maybe you should stop with the soft roader,not a real defender the sky is going to fall down bull**** and let Land Rover build the thing.Land Rover have been a success story for over a decade,first with Ford ownership and have continued to flourish under TATA and the fact that they have stopped and redesigned the defender means they are under no pressure,no carry over parts like the series to 110 days.Too often people on this and other forums think they know better than Land Rover,the fact they are in a position to design a clean sheet defender,like the latest L series RR's and next years alloy D5 shows otherwise,if I was you I would take the time to think about what they are making now,every model they make is the best in class,there's every reason to believe the defender will follow suit. Pat

[tact]

What do I think?,I think you blokes should get a hobby and stop talking about something you know nothing about ;).





As already posted over and over and over again Land Rover was going to make the defender on the T5 platform,the D3-4,that was dropped and the vehicle redesigned with live axles,the reason it's delayed till 2018.

Now there you go... The purpose of any discussion has been fulfilled. We who know nothing, now know what the new defender will be. Thanks for sharing. ;)

[cuppabillytea]

Neil and Pat. Take a bow. Right on the money. I was about to waffle on some more about Art and other fanciful stuff but it seems pointless now.:cool:

[MrLandy]

:eek::eek:
Neil and Pat. Take a bow. Right on the money. I was about to waffle on some more about Art and other fanciful stuff but it seems pointless now.:cool:

If design philosophy were all about pragmatism and markets, then yes take a bow (if your sources are correct that is). However I encourage you CuppaBT to take the art route because great design requires that in equal part. ...fear not the alpha male mechanical pragmatism that dominates this forum :eek: and go down the path of shadow, subtlety, nuance and what might best be described by the Japanese concept of wabi sabi.

As far as Icons being made and not born, that is a discussion that can't be so easily shut down... And one thing is for certain, shutting down discussion does not an Icon make.

[tact]

You guys keep on with the wabi sabi. I will keep reading and commenting wherever I find it interesting.

Pat's told us the platform is D3/4 with live axles. Great! It doesn't shut down discussion. There are still a lot of questions to consider. Design or wabi sabi stuff to wax lyrical.

Must admit that I care more for whether it will come with flat floors and hose able interior. That on a live axle D3/4 chassis/running gear already sounds good.

Another thing I care about is illustrated in this (real) story: My 110DC has way less rear overhang than the typical toynisabitsu. One camping trip, hauling dead tree out of a gully and sawing it up for firewood, saw a buddy in a 'lux comment that my tray is too short to be useful compared to his 'lux.

My retort was that I am happy with my "factory bob job" (a reference to his earlier moaning about the overhang on his lux and his thoughts of bobbing the tail). Also commented that he will breach his (lesser) carrying capacity before his longer tray is full of logs.
(That last point was for Pat - what good is the extra length if you can't use it all!). :firedevil:

[Rick Fischer]

Have mentioned it before. Whatever the "new" eventually becomes it must include all of the modern "safety" bits ie:


side intrusion bars,
pre determined front and rear crumple rates,
survivable space and roll cage.
more and more airbags
pedestrian friendly front end, etc etc;
stability control, and the latest,
automatic braking control, and
any "driver aid/protector that a regulator or the "road safety industry" can think of in the meantime.

Of course as one adds the things mentioned above that means bigger springs, bigger brakes, more steel/strength, bigger (heavier) engine gear box etc. More "mass".



All of that is "mass" and compensating "more mass"; and in many ways that is why the FJ toyo thing and the Mini are the way they are, and not their 'retro' selves.


Cheers



RF

[PAT303]

Now there you go... The purpose of any discussion has been fulfilled. We who know nothing, now know what the new defender will be. Thanks for sharing. ;)

The reason why the release has been pushed back to 2018 is because LR started over,they were going to build Icon on the T5 chassis but stopped,it wasn't what the market wanted.LR have put their specs forward for what they want the Defender replacement to be,to take on Toyota,return to North America,have live axles,different body styles and unmatched off road ability,all the things the current model has plus more.This has been done to death. Pat

[PAT303]

Have mentioned it before. Whatever the "new" eventually becomes it must include all of the modern "safety" bits ie:


side intrusion bars,
pre determined front and rear crumple rates,
survivable space and roll cage.
more and more airbags
pedestrian friendly front end, etc etc;
stability control, and the latest,
automatic braking control, and
any "driver aid/protector that a regulator or the "road safety industry" can think of in the meantime.

Of course as one adds the things mentioned above that means bigger springs, bigger brakes, more steel/strength, bigger (heavier) engine gear box etc. More "mass".



All of that is "mass" and compensating "more mass"; and in many ways that is why the FJ toyo thing and the Mini are the way they are, and not their 'retro' selves.


Cheers



RF

First decent reply so far,the extra mass is why Land Rover are changing to alloy chassis and body shells,I would not be supprised if Icon is released with a monocoque safety cell and seperate sub section for the 110/130 tray. Pat

[MrLandy]

First decent reply so far,the extra mass is why Land Rover are changing to alloy chassis and body shells,I would not be supprised if Icon is released with a monocoque safety cell and seperate sub section for the 110/130 tray. Pat

I thought it wasn't an icon until it became one judged by the people? and hasn't Defender always had an Aluminium body shell?

Monocoque safety shell sounds great. So does all the physical construction conjecture, which is infact no more or less interesting or important than philosophical conjecture.

Enjoying the banter boys. On the edge of my seat with such revelations. Wow! more airbags and side intrusion beams! Rad!

Riveting even! :zzz:

[rar110]

The objective is to make money and to place yourself in the right market with the right product to make that happen. However the new defender must make sense with the the other two market segments.

They can't keep making a car that sells only 1000 units a year in a market like Australia. It's gotta do a lot better.

Alloy unibody with EAS, front IFS, auto option, and TR with optional locking rear diff has to be the future Defender to do better and differentiate itself from a crowded utility market.

[cuppabillytea]

:eek::eek:

If design philosophy were all about pragmatism and markets, then yes take a bow (if your sources are correct that is). However I encourage you CuppaBT to take the art route because great design requires that in equal part. ...fear not the alpha male mechanical pragmatism that dominates this forum :eek: and go down the path of shadow, subtlety, nuance and what might best be described by the Japanese concept of wabi sabi.

As far as Icons being made and not born, that is a discussion that can't be so easily shut down... And one thing is for certain, shutting down discussion does not an Icon make.
What I said stands MrLandie. I don't want or need to go down the art rout. You wouldn't have liked it anyway. Pat has finally told us what we needed to know, and what I've said all along is that the Defender replacement will be what LR need it to be. Pragmatism is not a crime but a virtue. The new Land Rover has to be designed within the parameters that are handed to it by law and the practicalities with which it must contend. There is no room for artistic consideration beyond superficial design. You should be content now that the end result will meet with your approval.

[MrLandy]

Very happy to agree to disagree with you cuppa. As I said I rate pragmatism and artistic input as equally important to great design. As far as whether I "should be content" with whatever LR come up with, I'll be my own judge of that thanks. Cheers

[cuppabillytea]

Too true and fair enough.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

I thought it wasn't an icon until it became one judged by the people? and hasn't Defender always had an Aluminium body shell?

Monocoque safety shell sounds great. So does all the physical construction conjecture, which is infact no more or less interesting or important than philosophical conjecture.

Enjoying the banter boys. On the edge of my seat with such revelations. Wow! more airbags and side intrusion beams! Rad!

Riveting even! :zzz:No Iconic shape Land Rover has ever had what one could consider a shell. What they have is a number of relatively flat panels, some of them aluminium, bolted together at the corners.

It is this lack of a safety shell that prevents sale of Defender in many markets (In spite of evidence from crash statistics)

The firewalls have never been aluminium* and the steel door frames have only had aluminium door skins, except for the Puma which now has steel door skins.

Diana

* In the 80" model there were a number of "aluminium firewalls" however these were steel frames with aluminium skins and conjecture exists about whether these were original manufacture or spare parts after the press dies for the firewall were no longer available.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/08/365.jpg

[MrLandy]

"The new model [Defender] will transform the 4x4 from rugged workhorses to a 'family' of trendy beach-buggy style leisure vehicles." New generation of the Land Rover Defender 4x4 to be built in Slovakia | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3193382/New-generation-Land-Rover-Defender-4x4-favoured-Queen-built-Slovakia.html)

dont believe everything you read and all that :cool: ...but it doesn't look good. Oh well, so much for the Defender, R.I.P rugged workhorse...at least it will probably have an airbag!:angel: Not the design philosophy I was hoping for.

[PAT303]

Yep,so much for the defender,looks like you bronzed weather beaten real defender men with large members will have to drive off into the sunset for the last time and leave the world to us latte drinking small membered city metro sexuals in our tonka toy dune buggies,I hope the colors of the new pretender don't clash with my short shorts. Pat

[SG1 Bones]

I'm probably putting a spanner in the works here but I don't mind the look of the DC100. Do I think it's a good replacement for the defender? No. Is it where Land Rover will travel with the Defender? Probably. Will I buy one? No way. Would I up date my Series 3 109. Probably what would it be? Probably a Defender. My point is that unfortunately you can't stop things changing do we need to like it? No. Do we need to accept it? Unfortunately yes.

I would like to see the Defender still get made (maybe like the 40 Series 'Cruisers and VW Beetles were in Brazil), yes it's an icon. But so was a lot of other cars. Unfortunately we live in a materialistic society where we 'need' to upgrade our car every couple of years, because of the gadgets 'we' demand.

I'll end with this,
Land Rover better come up with a real cracker. I don't think I could imagine Queen Elizabeth II driving anything else.

Nathan.

[Pickles2]

AFAIAC, I don't think anyone has any idea what the new Defender will be.
JLR have done an incredible job of not letting ANYTHING out.
However, the market is totally different now, to when the basis of our vehicles were conceived, and I'm not sure what market JLR will want to enter into, & compete, with any "New" Defender.
How much emphasis will they place upon it? They may be happy to more concentrate on the "leisure" type vehicles, Evoque, Disco, & of course Range Rover etc, that have given them so much sales success.
I can't see that it will be as "Utalitarian" as the current Defender, and it'll have to be substantially cheaper to achieve volume sales against the multitude of other stuff out there, particularly as there are many price conscious, "just a work tool" buyers in this segment.
Just my thoughts, Pickles.

[cafe latte]

No Iconic shape Land Rover has ever had what one could consider a shell. What they have is a number of relatively flat panels, some of them aluminium, bolted together at the corners.

It is this lack of a safety shell that prevents sale of Defender in many markets (In spite of evidence from crash statistics)

The firewalls have never been aluminium* and the steel door frames have only had aluminium door skins, except for the Puma which now has steel door skins.

Diana

* In the 80" model there were a number of "aluminium firewalls" however these were steel frames with aluminium skins and conjecture exists about whether these were original manufacture or spare parts after the press dies for the firewall were no longer available.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/08/365.jpg

I did not know that about the Puma having steel door skins, I went to check with a magnet and it is true, also it seems the bonnet is steel too which was a surprise.
Chris

[PAT303]

AFAIAC, I don't think anyone has any idea what the new Defender will be.
JLR have done an incredible job of not letting ANYTHING out.
However, the market is totally different now, to when the basis of our vehicles were conceived, and I'm not sure what market JLR will want to enter into, & compete, with any "New" Defender.
How much emphasis will they place upon it? They may be happy to more concentrate on the "leisure" type vehicles, Evoque, Disco, & of course Range Rover etc, that have given them so much sales success.
I can't see that it will be as "Utalitarian" as the current Defender, and it'll have to be substantially cheaper to achieve volume sales against the multitude of other stuff out there, particularly as there are many price conscious, "just a work tool" buyers in this segment.
Just my thoughts, Pickles.

The market hasn't changed,the people have,gone are the days when people slapped down $70,000 for a vehicle with no floor mats,vinyl seats,no Air Con or Air Con that only blows from the dash etc etc.Ask on here what people want in the new Defender,bigger motor,diff locks,more cabin space,you can buy one,it's called a 78 series,cab chassis,troopy or dual cab but no one buys them,not even the die hards,wonder why?.Look at the market,why is Jeep outselling Prado?,better drive,better motor/gearbox for less money,why are light duty utes outselling the mighty LC,better ride,better motors/gearboxs,A/C that works,comfy seats for less money.Declan and I went to the air museum all Bull Creek today in the TDCi,drove up the freeway at a comfortable 100k's an hour,A/C on low,comfy seats,no noise all good,would I want to do it in a series throw back like everyone wants the new defender to be,100k's an hour listening to the engine and gearbox scream their nuts off while sliding around on sweating vinyl seats,screw that. Pat

[Pickles2]

The market hasn't changed,the people have,gone are the days when people slapped down $70,000 for a vehicle with no floor mats,vinyl seats,no Air Con or Air Con that only blows from the dash etc etc.Ask on here what people want in the new Defender,bigger motor,diff locks,more cabin space,you can buy one,it's called a 78 series,cab chassis,troopy or dual cab but no one buys them,not even the die hards,wonder why?.Look at the market,why is Jeep outselling Prado?,better drive,better motor/gearbox for less money,why are light duty utes outselling the mighty LC,better ride,better motors/gearboxs,A/C that works,comfy seats for less money.Declan and I went to the air museum all Bull Creek today in the TDCi,drove up the freeway at a comfortable 100k's an hour,A/C on low,comfy seats,no noise all good,would I want to do it in a series throw back like everyone wants the new defender to be,100k's an hour listening to the engine and gearbox scream their nuts off while sliding around on sweating vinyl seats,screw that. Pat
The market HAS changed, and it's not only about people.
Actually, I think we do agree, but we've put it differently.
What I mean when I say the market's changed is that there are now many many bigger, cheaper, more powerful variants about, that will "do the job" (which is all that many people in this segment, tradies, construction workers etcs are looking for)..there are many many more choices than there ever has been, at relatively, and in some cases VERY cheap prices, and this is the market that the new Defender will be up against.
What I'm saying is, I don't know how much emphasis/effort JLR will want to place on this market, which has changed, with respect to the increasing number of very price competitive makes/models/variants over the years.
To be honest, and I could be totally wrong here, I don't see any new Defender getting into its "old" market at all.
Pickles.

[PAT303]

I think it will,every ute you buy now except for the defender is not fit for purpose,none can carry their rated load,none can tow their rated capacity and none can go off road.A modern defender with Discovery interior space and comfort,150kw/500nm motor with manual or auto option with the all round ability of the present model without the need of GVM upgrades,suspension upgrades,WDH etc with three different body styles,tray,dual and wagon for sub $60k will eat this market alive. Pat

[MrLandy]

I think it will,every ute you buy now except for the defender is not fit for purpose,none can carry their rated load,none can tow their rated capacity and none can go off road.A modern defender with Discovery interior space and comfort,150kw/500nm motor with manual or auto option with the all round ability of the present model without the need of GVM upgrades,suspension upgrades,WDH etc with three different body styles,tray,dual and wagon for sub $60k will eat this market alive. Pat

That's your best description yet Pat, send it off to Gerry!

...as I keep saying, I hope you're right! ...but it all comes down to Land Rover's current design philosophy, which is decidedly not Heavy Duty work vehicle oriented. If they "transform the [Defender] from a rugged workhorse to a 'family' of trendy beach-buggy style leisure vehicles", it's all over.

[gusthedog]

Who cares what the new defender will be like? I won't and the reason is they won't be under $15k for a long time yet :D

By that time we'll have used all of the fossil fuels up and my D2 will be converted to run on hydrogen by the government because they care.

No, by the time I can afford one we'll actually have had a mass extinction event on the planet caused by the middle class have to haves. I'll just keep pootling along in my D2 and wait for the inevitable ; )

Pricey

[Tote]

Having a 130 on order it might be relevent to explain my requirements and what led me to choose a 130 and what I would like a replacement to offer.
Coming from a D3 I'm going to miss the comfort and power it offers but we need a vehicle that will allow us all ( 2 adults, 2 kids) to travel to our farm in one vehicle with a reasonable load capacity without necessarily towing a trailer. The vehicle also needs to be a competent and reliable tourer for the several trips away a year that we do to places as diverse as the Simpson and Mt Pinnibar.
Contenders were:
Dodge Ram 2500 Dual cab: Unfortunately too expensive but it does offer the availability of leather trim and a comfort level that comes close to the D3.

Ford Ranger Wildtrack: Has the leather, the cost is OK but once I buy it I have to spend $2500.00 on a lift kit and I still cannot option a tray instead of a ute back and cannot option leather on the XLT which would be closer to the spec I need.

Defender 130: Optioned with a few comforts it delivers most of what I need although the comfort factor does not compare with the Ram. It is capable out of the box and improving that capability is at a reasonable price.

What would kill the Dual cab ute market in Aus: A defender replacement that is capable out of the box, has some level of comfort and the ability to option it up to the level that a US pickup provides. Some niceties like air suspension would be good but my experience with the D3 was that the suspension advances had more impact on on road performance than off road while still providing the capability, maybe something that is less relevant for the dual cab market.
It would also be good if they could achieve the Wrangler trick and deliver something that looks like a Defender but has all the mod cons underneath with an option to appeal to the hard core market like the Rubicon does for the Wrangler.

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

The Japanese philosophy of Wabi Sabi might go some way to describing the intangible nature of Land Rover Series and Defender vehicles...

'Characteristics of the wabi-sabi aesthetic include asymmetry, asperity (roughness or irregularity), simplicity, economy, austerity, modesty, intimacy, and appreciation of the ingenuous integrity of natural objects and processes.'

And not only in terms of the vehicles design and manufacturing processes including being virtually the last hand built production vehicle we'll ever see, but also in terms of the experiential nature of driving one...Roving to be exact.

All of the above Wabi Sabi characteristics are what make Roving/Wandering/Experiencing the World in a Defender or Series Land Rover vehicle unique. This is what is being lost to the Land Rover brand with the end of Defender. Something far more valuable than money.

The rush to 'modernise' everything in the name of fiscal profit and luxury, destroys the very essence of Land Rovers origins.

The good news is that the more use a Defender or Series Land Rover gets, the more dents, the more patina...the more beautiful is its Wabi Sabi nature.

[Disco Muppet]

Starting to notice some alarming similarities between defender ownership and Stockholm syndrome :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

Starting to notice some alarming similarities between defender ownership and Stockholm syndrome :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app
Your Frog has identified with his captor in a most alarming way. :eek:

[blackapache]

A bloke I work with just sold his 79 series and bought a Ranger,he told me this morning he'd catch a bus before owning another one,most costly POS he's ever owned. Pat

I had one for about 6 months - cost me a fortune as well. Its the last ford I'll ever sit my arse in other than the old F series.

The ranger gives new meaning to the term "built to a price"

[MrLandy]

Starting to notice some alarming similarities between defender ownership and Stockholm syndrome :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

Not funny, irrelevant and highly distasteful coming from a moderator.

[gusthedog]

Not funny, irrelevant and highly distasteful coming from a moderator.

I thought it was funny. But then I own a Discovery so I have to have a sense of humour :D

Pricey

[steane]

I thought it was funny. But then I own a Discovery so I have to have a sense of humour :D

Pricey

It was quite humorous in my opinion.

[MR LR]

Not funny, irrelevant and highly distasteful coming from a moderator.
What has got you in a mood MrLandy?

Sore back?
Bruised shoulder?
Corked left leg?
Trench foot?
Industrial deafness?
Beard going grey?

[MrLandy]

What has this got to do with Land Rover Defender ownership?

"Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."

"Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

[gusthedog]

What has this got to do with Land Rover Defender ownership?

"Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."

"Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

Once you buy it, it becomes the captor and you the captured. I see the link and still think it's way funny.

You initially hate the dust, water and oil leaks. But then you start to empathise with it. Then you fall in love.

Pricey

[MR LR]

What has this got to do with Land Rover Defender ownership?

"Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."

"Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
It's got absolutely everything to do with Defender ownership.

Catch 22, if you've got it, you don't know about it, but if you know about it, you don't have it.

What kind of sane person buys a leaky, noisy, slow, unreliable, poorly built, British Leyland throwback in the 21st century?

Fortunately I was sane enough to walk away from a 52k fully optioned 110 DC deal...

I hope the 2018 vehicle is something special.

[PAT303]

Actually after a combined 22 years of ownership and having spent less money in that time in repairs than what it would cost to replace the suspension on a brand new Asian produced vehicle I really like my reliable,well built,fast enough and not that noisy pair of defenders. Pat

[steane]

What has this got to do with Land Rover Defender ownership?

"Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors. These feelings are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims, who essentially mistake a lack of abuse from their captors for an act of kindness."

"Stockholm syndrome can be seen as a form of traumatic bonding, which does not necessarily require a hostage scenario, but which describes strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

More than Wagu Wasabi ;)

[steane]

Actually after a combined 22 years of ownership and having spent less money in that time in repairs than what it would cost to replace the suspension on a brand new Asian produced vehicle I really like my reliable,well built,fast enough and not that noisy pair of defenders. Pat

Every now and then you take my breath away Pat :D

[MR LR]

Actually after a combined 22 years of ownership and having spent less money in that time in repairs than what it would cost to replace the suspension on a brand new Asian produced vehicle I really like my reliable,well built,fast enough and not that noisy pair of defenders. Pat
Which was made in the 20th century ;)

Try running a PUMA for 22 years on minimal maintenance costs.

[MrLandy]

Actually after a combined 22 years of ownership and having spent less money in that time in repairs than what it would cost to replace the suspension on a brand new Asian produced vehicle I really like my reliable,well built,fast enough and not that noisy pair of defenders. Pat

Same here. No question. And for me it's not just about the mechanicals. I also really like the character and unique cultural aspects of Defender ownership. There is another dimension that few on this site touch on. It is an indescribable source of happiness, a difficult to pin down sense of being at one with a vehicle, it's the the source of the Defender wave and the intangible feeling we all know. But only if you drive a Defender.

[MrLandy]

Which was made in the 20th century ;)

Try running a PUMA for 22 years on minimal maintenance costs.

Pumas will last more than 22 years. There more reason now than ever before to maintain the last of the breed.

[MR LR]

Pumas will last more than 22 years. There more reason now than ever before to maintain the last of the breed.
That's not what I said.

[MrLandy]

That's not what I said.

Correct. It's what I said.

[gusthedog]

Same here. No question. And for me it's not just about the mechanicals. I also really like the character and unique cultural aspects of Defender ownership. There is another dimension that few on this site touch on. It is an indescribable source of happiness, a difficult to pin down sense of being at one with a vehicle, it's the the source of the Defender wave and the intangible feeling we all know. But only if you drive a Defender.

And we're back to Stockholm syndrome :wasntme:

Sorry couldn't resist:D

[PAT303]

Which was made in the 20th century ;)

Try running a PUMA for 22 years on minimal maintenance costs.

I cannot see any reason why it wouldn't,the only difference is instead of replacing lift pumps and fan tensioners it'll be volume control valves and pressure regulators,same same really. Pat

[PAT303]

Every now and then you take my breath away Pat :D

A cent spent on preventative maintenance is worth a dollar in repairs,grease is cheap,whats five minutes of your time worth,why do something half arsed twice instead of once properly,drive to the conditions,use common sense etc etc.Land Rover ownership is not hard or expensive,people just make it that way :D. Pat

[Didge]

Same here. No question. And for me it's not just about the mechanicals. I also really like the character and unique cultural aspects of Defender ownership. There is another dimension that few on this site touch on. It is an indescribable source of happiness, a difficult to pin down sense of being at one with a vehicle, it's the the source of the Defender wave and the intangible feeling we all know. But only if you drive a Defender.
Spot on! Absolutely spot on MrLAndy!!!

Forgive my ignorance Guts but whats the "Stockholm syndrome"?

[steane]

A cent spent on preventative maintenance is worth a dollar in repairs,grease is cheap,whats five minutes of your time worth,why do something half arsed twice instead of once properly,drive to the conditions,use common sense etc etc.Land Rover ownership is not hard or expensive,people just make it that way :D. Pat

I agree completely. This is why it's difficult to find good older Defenders now. People don't look after them and once they are 'let go' their decline becomes very expensive to rectify.

Look after them and there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

[MrLandy]

Spot on! Absolutely spot on MrLAndy!!!

Cheers Didge.

[JDNSW]

I agree completely. This is why it's difficult to find good older Defenders now. People don't look after them and once they are 'let go' their decline becomes very expensive to rectify.

Look after them and there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

Perhaps more accurately, it is difficult to find good older Defenders because the people who look after them are not parting with them, and the only people relinquishing them are the ones who treat them as disposable.

John

[RVR110]

McGovern intends to "broaden the appeal" of the Defender and is "looking at 100,000 vehicles a year", up from the current 20,000.

For me, this decreases the appeal because I like driving a niche vehicle - so I don't want 5 times more Defenders on the roads as I don't like following the herd. Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

[MrLandy]

McGovern intends to "broaden the appeal" of the Defender and is "looking at 100,000 vehicles a year", up from the current 20,000.

For me, this decreases the appeal because I like driving a niche vehicle - so I don't want 5 times more Defenders on the roads as I don't like following the herd. Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!

Absolutely. Well said RVR110. Now we're getting somewhere in this discussion. Quality over quantity...and I mean quality of experience. Something only a hand built Defender can offer. (This is afterall the source of the Defender wave).

Why is selling 'more units' and 'broad appeal' the holy grail? All other Land Rover models already target this market. I would argue that a new Defender that is still in part hand built, is seriously heavy duty and that sold in low volumes (what company doesn't have a loss leader?), would keep the credibility of the Land Rover brand alive. Not everyone wants to go on a fully guided package deal cruise. It's the same with vehicles, but the options for not following the crowd are almost non existent unless you're very wealthy.

[JDNSW]

........
Why is selling 'more units' and 'broad appeal' the holy grail? ......

Because the vehicle meeds to be completely redesigned and tooled to meet legislation round the world, and the only way of paying for this is to sell enough vehicles. The Defender as it is at present has had a lot of these design and tooling costs paid for many years ago, when labour costs were a lot less.

A replacement vehicle has to face these costs at present rates, and improved accounting practices, MBAs everywhere, and company legislation mean that this will be enforced, where it wasn't sixty years ago. If they do not sell enough, the these costs per unit will be too high.

Hence the need to have broader appeal. This does not necessarily mean that they have to aim for the same market they are already serving with other models - they may come up with something that meets a market nobody has thought of or at least seriously addressed. Rover did this with the original Landrover, and again with the Rangerover, and even arguably with the Discovery, and the Freelander (although not the last in Australia).

John

[RVR110]

Why is selling 'more units' and 'broad appeal' the holy grail?Because they're a business. I find it ironic that the high production volumes required for (commercial) survival of the Defender is the very thing that will kill it for many of the people who used to buy them.

[AndyG]

McGovern intends to "broaden the appeal" of the Defender and is "looking at 100,000 vehicles a year", up from the current 20,000.

For me, this decreases the appeal because I like driving a niche vehicle - so I don't want 5 times more Defenders on the roads as I don't like following the herd. Baaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!
You will be in a classic Defender, not the retro one, so you will be entitled to have an air of disdain.


Will we be expected to wave at the new Defender, ;), my arm will get tired if they are too popular :)

[AndyG]

What was the reaction of the Series crowd when the first coil Defender arrived, it's going to be similar to that methinks

[PAT303]

I agree completely. This is why it's difficult to find good older Defenders now. People don't look after them and once they are 'let go' their decline becomes very expensive to rectify.

Look after them and there isn't a whole lot to worry about.

Absolutely,if you stay on top of maintenance and servicing vehicles of all makes are easy to keep going,it's once they become the second car that they go down hill quickly. Pat

[cuppabillytea]

Spot on! Absolutely spot on MrLAndy!!!

Forgive my ignorance Guts but whats the "Stockholm syndrome"?

I second that motion.

[cuppabillytea]

And we're back to Stockholm syndrome :wasntme:

Sorry couldn't resist:D

Did we become captivated by our Defenders before or after we bought them?

[gusthedog]

Did we become captivated by our Defenders before or after we bought them?

Case by case there may be differences. Some may have realised early on but others would be unaware. But after you spent that much on a leaky, dusty car with bad air-conditioning, you soon become captured :D. It's that first morning after a heavy rain and you find the passenger footwell full of water that it starts to sink in. But then you've spent so much money getting the car and apart from "insert problem here" it's a really great 4wd. Then before you know it, your subconscious forces you to love the car. Because if you sat back and actually thought objectively for a moment and realised that you'd spent all that hard earned on a loud, uncomfortable car that some psychotic designer into S&M designed the handbrake location for, you'd probably have an episode....:D



Pricey

[RVR110]

Absolutely,if you stay on top of maintenance and servicing vehicles of all makes are easy to keep going,it's once they become the second car that they go down hill quickly. PatYou've said that you've got "a pair of defenders" which begs the question: which one of them is "the second car"?
:wasntme:

[MR LR]

You've said that you've got "a pair of defenders" which begs the question: which one of them is "the second car"?
:wasntme:
The alternative to the first :p :wasntme: :angel:

[MrLandy]

Case by case there may be differences. Some may have realised early on but others would be unaware. But after you spent that much on a leaky, dusty car with bad air-conditioning, you soon become captured :D. It's that first morning after a heavy rain and you find the passenger footwell full of water that it starts to sink in. But then you've spent so much money getting the car and apart from "insert problem here" it's a really great 4wd. Then before you know it, your subconscious forces you to love the car. Because if you sat back and actually thought objectively for a moment and realised that you'd spent all that hard earned on a loud, uncomfortable car that some psychotic designer into S&M designed the handbrake location for, you'd probably have an episode....:D

Pricey

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with Stockholm Syndrome, which is a horrific state of being experienced by people who are kidnapped.

The S&M reference to the location of a hand brake lever is equally inappropriate.

There is no place for any of the above in a thread about the philosophy of Land Rover ownership IMO.

[LandyAndy]

Same here. No question. And for me it's not just about the mechanicals. I also really like the character and unique cultural aspects of Defender ownership. There is another dimension that few on this site touch on. It is an indescribable source of happiness, a difficult to pin down sense of being at one with a vehicle, it's the the source of the Defender wave and the intangible feeling we all know. But only if you drive a Defender.

DEFENDER WAVE???????
Obviously you havent been a Land Rover owner for very long.
Andrew

[MrLandy]

DEFENDER WAVE???????
Obviously you havent been a Land Rover owner for very long.
Andrew

It's never been a general Land Rover wave Andy. Although I do wave to Disco drivers if they wave first (which is virtually never).

You may have noticed this thread with a lazy 81K posts: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/142750-wheres-defender-wave-gone.html

[MR LR]

It's never been a Land Rover wave Andy. Although I do wave to Disco drivers if they wave first (which is virtually never).

You may have noticed this thread with a lazy 81K posts: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/142750-wheres-defender-wave-gone.html
It was a Land Rover wave long before bloody Pumas (or Defenders) existed.

And Range Rovers in the early days exchanged headlight flashes (some still do), as they were one of the first things to get the dip switch on the stalk, not the floor.

[MrLandy]

It was a Land Rover wave long before bloody Pumas (or Defenders) existed. .

Correct, but that was when Series Land Rovers were the only Land Rovers. When real Land Rovers were re-badged Defender, it became the Defender wave. Series Land Rover drivers know their waves are secure in their origins. Unlike Disco RR drivers. :p

[LandyAndy]

Ive heard it all now.
Andrew

[jackdef90]

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with Stockholm Syndrome, which is a horrific state of being experienced by people who are kidnapped.

The S&M reference to the location of a hand brake lever is equally inappropriate.

There is no place for any of the above in a thread about the philosophy of Land Rover ownership IMO.


:censored:

[LandyAndy]

It was a Land Rover wave long before bloody Pumas (or Defenders) existed.

And Range Rovers in the early days exchanged headlight flashes (some still do), as they were one of the first things to get the dip switch on the stalk, not the floor.

Will
I think I will revert to the olde days.A blast of bixenon high beams mixed with 150W of FYRLYTS when I see these humpmobile deefers.The poor fools driving them will be looking for Police for the next 50km:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
These modern bumpy bonnet owners only know about the wave because they saw it on the internet:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
Andrew

[pop058]

Correct, but that was when Series Land Rovers were the only Land Rovers. When real Land Rovers were re-badged Defender, it became the Defender wave. Series Land Rover drivers know their waves are secure in their origins. Unlike Disco RR drivers. :p

That personal insight is probably news to a lot of Landy owners (including Disco and Rangie drivers). It is not necessarily true, but thank you for the wonderful story anyway. :)

[numpty]

It was a Land Rover wave long before bloody Pumas (or Defenders) existed.

And Range Rovers in the early days exchanged headlight flashes (some still do), as they were one of the first things to get the dip switch on the stalk, not the floor.

And it was a VW Kombi wave before that, complete with a flash of high beam from the steering wheel mounted stalk. And mine was a '68 model. ;)

[AndyG]

Could some post the link to the Disco wave thread, can't find it, :angel:
Did find the Defender wave thread of 81k, and Discos do get the odd mention there, odd is the operative word :wasntme:

[JDNSW]

And it was a VW Kombi wave before that, complete with a flash of high beam from the steering wheel mounted stalk. And mine was a '68 model. ;)

The stalk headlight flasher was not uncommon on European cars well before the Rangerover. Citroen had it in 1967, and a slightly clumsier version in 1956. I am not sure, but I think my father's 1959 Simca had it too. But my 1955 Kombi did not.

John

[MrLandy]

The stalk headlight flasher was not uncommon on European cars well before the Rangerover. Citroen had it in 1967, and a slightly clumsier version in 1956. I am not sure, but I think my father's 1959 Simca had it too. But my 1955 Kombi did not.

John

All of which are vehicles of unique character and camaraderie similar to the Series/Defender and as such the reason for waving/light flashing, which I believe will dissipate fast if it morphs into simply a Land Rover brand allegiance thing. Which brings me back to the context of this thread, the philosophical (as distinct from the mechanical or historical) nature of Series/Defender vehicles and whether with the next generation of Defenders this philosophy will change, along with the contemporary Land Rover ethos which has clearly shifted to a 90 percent bias toward to urban SUV mass production market. Is anyone interested in such a philosophical discussion? Or are we all content with Land Rover becoming as homogenous as all other SUV brands?

[jon3950]

Well I for one would be content to see JLR remain as a successful business. The world needs innovative manufacturers like them.

The waving thing really comes down to relative scarcity. That can't be sustained in a modern vehicle because people who buy Land Rovers aren't prepared to pay the true cost of a vehicle made in such small numbers, that complies with current standards.

So just what do you propose JLR do?

Cheers,
Jon

[AndyG]

Well I for one would be content to see JLR remain as a successful business. The world needs innovative manufacturers like them.

The waving thing really comes down to relative scarcity. That can't be sustained in a modern vehicle because people who buy Land Rovers aren't prepared to pay the true cost of a vehicle made in such small numbers, that complies with current standards.

So just what do you propose JLR do?

Cheers,
Jon

Almost sounds like your saying that only Defenders wave being scarce LAnd Rovers, whilst main stream Discovery's are not Land Rovers, and hence dont wave. :o

[MrLandy]

Well I for one would be content to see JLR remain as a successful business. The world needs innovative manufacturers like them.

The waving thing really comes down to relative scarcity. That can't be sustained in a modern vehicle because people who buy Land Rovers aren't prepared to pay the true cost of a vehicle made in such small numbers, that complies with current standards.

So just what do you propose JLR do?

Cheers,
Jon

Thanks Jon, yes well that question is what this thread is intended to be about. I dont pretend to have all the answers, but I'd really enjoy a philosophical discussion about it with those who think it's important or interesting.

Some will say don't worry, the next Defender will be awesome. Others will say they are very happy with their old Series/Defender vehicles. Others will say they're very happy with their high tech slick Disco/Rangie's. But for me the question remains: at the end of an era, which clearly the end of Defender in 2016 heralds, does anyone value the characteristics which Ive described in an earlier post as an analogy to the Japanese Wabi Sabi design principals of seeking the perfect balance between perfection and imperfection, handmade and mass produced? Is there room for one vehicle in the world that bucks the trend of mass consumption? Is the originary Land Rover ethos which is so eloquently contained in the words Land and Rover, that values wandering without known destination, and is ready for adventure off the beaten track, in a pragmatic, humble, relaxed, ambling kind of way and a no nonsense hose out no carpet work vehicle kind of way still of value in our supremely urban-bling centric era?

[rick130]

Case by case there may be differences. Some may have realised early on but others would be unaware. But after you spent that much on a leaky, dusty car with bad air-conditioning, you soon become captured :D. It's that first morning after a heavy rain and you find the passenger footwell full of water that it starts to sink in. But then you've spent so much money getting the car and apart from "insert problem here" it's a really great 4wd. Then before you know it, your subconscious forces you to love the car. Because if you sat back and actually thought objectively for a moment and realised that you'd spent all that hard earned on a loud, uncomfortable car that some psychotic designer into S&M designed the handbrake location for, you'd probably have an episode....:D



Pricey

Or you can go in with your eyes wide open knowing full well all the pitfalls and compromises of ownership before purchase, but you do it because it fulfils your needs like no other vehicle. ;)

[jon3950]

Almost sounds like your saying that only Defenders wave being scarce LAnd Rovers, whilst main stream Discovery's are not Land Rovers, and hence dont wave. :o

I'll ignore the gratuitous Disco-bashing and try to answer your question. When Disco's were relatively scarce most driver's waved because they were Land Rovers. They were mostly driven by enthusiasts who were either fans of the marque or into 4wding, so there was that shared bond.

Now the world has moved on and the market has changed. 4wds have developed mass appeal and because the Disco is such a good vehicle it appeals to a larger part of the market. So now the majority are bought by people who see it as just another car. There's nothing wrong with that. We need these those people for the brand's survival. However some are still bought by enthusiasts, such as myself and most of the people on this forum. Some owners become enthusiasts after buying them because there is still something about all Land Rovers that set them apart and get under your skin.

What makes them Land Rovers is their engineering excellence and class leading capability - not a bunch of beardies waving at each other.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Thanks Jon, yes well that question is what this thread is intended to be about. I dont pretend to have all the answers, but I'd really enjoy a philosophical discussion about it with those who think it's important or interesting....

Land Rover identifies the Marque's core values as:
Individualism
Authenticity
Freedom
Adventure
Guts
Supremacy

So you may be closer than you realise, but I think you're assigning some values to the brand that aren't really there. The values you perceive have come about because the Defender has not been updated for so long and is now an anachronism in the modern world. I get it though - its a big part of the reason I've just bought one.


Is there room for one vehicle in the world that bucks the trend of mass consumption?

Not at a price you'd be willing to pay.

The most significant vehicles in Land Rover's history have all been somewhat revolutionary, think the original Land Rover, original Range Rover and the Discovery 3/4 which has brought a whole raft of new technologies to mainstream 4wds. Now with the Range Rover they have moved to aluminium monocoques - something of a revolution for this type of vehicle.

This is the way the new Defender should head. It needs to be revolutionary, which probably means a lot of people won't like it.

Cheers,
Jon

[rick130]

The most significant vehicles in Land Rover's history have all been somewhat revolutionary, think the original Land Rover, original Range Rover and the Discovery 3/4 which has brought a whole raft of new technologies to mainstream 4wds. Now with the Range Rover they have moved to aluminium monocoques - something of a revolution for this type of vehicle.

This is the way the new Defender should head. It needs to be revolutionary, which probably means a lot of people won't like it.

Cheers,
Jon

Even the 90/110/127/130 were revolutionary as they brought car like handling and ride comfort (remember they used very soft rate springs and the Boge Hydromat load leveller for the first few years) to the commercial/farm market.

Most all commercial/farm 4WD's used semi-eliptic leaf suspension all round (and most still use them on the back)
Land Rover went to full time 4WD around 1980 and coils plus full time 4WD in '83.
That was more than evolution at the time, even though it was basically a Series body plonked on Rangie running gear.

[jon3950]

Even the 90/110/127/130 were revolutionary as they brought car like handling and ride comfort (remember they used very soft rate springs and the Boge Hydromat load leveller for the first few years) to the commercial/farm market.

Most all commercial/farm 4WD's used semi-eliptic leaf suspension all round (and most still use them on the back)
Land Rover went to full time 4WD around 1980 and coils plus full time 4WD in '83.
That was more than evolution at the time, even though it was basically a Series body plonked on Rangie running gear.

And that was at what was probably the worst time in Land Rovers history in terms of funding for new vehicle development.

[cuppabillytea]

Thanks jon3950. You bring a level of pragmatism that has been needed in this thread. However I don't think that JLR will let the market lead it by the nose. Rather they will make a NEW product that the market can't resist.

[MR LR]

Thanks jon3950. You bring a level of pragmatism that has been needed in this thread. However I don't think that JLR will let the market lead it by the nose. Rather they will make a NEW product that the market can't resist.
Exactly, but there will be a market shift...

The beardy types won't like it, (LOL, I have a beard...), but very few of them are new car buyers now anyway, so why should Land Rover cater to them?

Either way they'll kill it...

[MrLandy]

Talk about kill it. You guys love killing a discussion don't you. Yeah yeah, new Defender will be awesome fanboys. Yeah kill what could be a fascinating philosophical discussion with mechanical / financial pragmatism, just like every other thread on this site. Wo behold that the discussion might go in another direction! ...Nah JLR won't be led by the market pffftttt. Seriously?

Where are the Beardy philosophers around here anyway?

[cuppabillytea]

Oh dear. I thought I'd given my philosophical prediction long ago. Now it seems I'll have to reread, reassess and come up with a more plausible example.

[frantic]

Land Rover identifies the Marque's core values as:
Individualism
Authenticity
Freedom
Adventure
Guts
Supremacy

So you may be closer than you realise, but I think you're assigning some values to the brand that aren't really there. The values you perceive have come about because the Defender has not been updated for so long and is now an anachronism in the modern world. I get it though - its a big part of the reason I've just bought one.



Not at a price you'd be willing to pay.

The most significant vehicles in Land Rover's history have all been somewhat revolutionary, think the original Land Rover, original Range Rover and the Discovery 3/4 which has brought a whole raft of new technologies to mainstream 4wds. Now with the Range Rover they have moved to aluminium monocoques - something of a revolution for this type of vehicle.

This is the way the new Defender should head. It needs to be revolutionary, which probably means a lot of people won't like it.

Cheers,
Jon
I don't care if it's revolutionary, but it needs to keep its individualism .
That means , unlike the rest of its range it needs to be adaptable to what the customer wants to do with it. ;)
Not just make a pretty city pack, but make it easily modified . So if you want a long distance tourer , easily (preferably factory option) fit a long range tank and water tank, like the current model. If you want a rock climber, easily lift and fit larger tyres, preferably 35in plus, like the pre puma defenders.
Landrover have gone the euro route of having a performance version of their RR and RRS, which should also be continued through the entire range like bm/merc, but they ignored the other end of a more off-road focused version like several U.S companies have.

[DiscoMick]

I think the word Land Rover is using to describe the Defender is to say it must have 'durability', meaning it must last a long time.
The Defender and its earlier versions have certainly lasted a long time. Will the Discovery and Rangie last as long? Too early to tell. Disco. 1s are now dirt cheap, but a lot are being scrapped.
I'm encouraged by statements by LR company people about the new Defender being designed to use commonly-available parts to make it easier for them to be kept on the road in the future. That seems smart.
Obviously it has to be a workhorse, available in multiple configurations and adaptable for many purposes. It also needs a range of engines and transmissions.
Personally, I wouldn't like to see LR try to make it look like a Discovery, with the body styling becoming more oriented towards sleekness than practicality. The Defender's boxy body is a big plus, as is the square rear of the D3-4, I reckon.
Really, if you combine a light but strong aluminium chassis with a roomy and flexible body, a simple coil suspension, the current JLR engine and transmission range and a practical interior, JLR should be able to nail the Defender pretty well, if they don't try to go too trendy.
Durable and practical is what is needed.

[Bobby D]

When you ask a 20 to 40 year old lay-man(or woman) on the street what a Land Rover is, I can guarantee they image conjured up in the heads of the majority will be that of the Discovery. So successful is the Disco and so dominant it is on the road that it is definitely what comes to peoples minds when Land Rover is mentioned... for the older generation then I reakon it's the series models, ones on movies and in books of decades ago that comes to mind.

But that leads me to think, how many Discos has the legend and legacy of the Series and Defender sold? In the 90s, probably the majority. People wanting the intrepid, go anywhere prestige of the Land Rover badge (tied to the Series and Deefer) but having all the modern comforts and whatnot. Now in 2016 the Disco stands on its own and sells itself.

So, I think there are two paths JLR can go down, and they may actually end up going two defender versions that fit both.

One would be in the sleek city SUV style and only release in 90 and 110 style configurations. Basically a slightly smaller, tougher looking Disco 5. Great off road and on the highway but by no means a workhorse, high payload capability is traded in for a comfortable ride. It will fit into the look of the current LR and RR range and compete with the Prado and Padjero.

The other would be tied much more closely with it's roots in the Series 1, a workhorse. Come in wagon versions but aggressively chase down the Agricultural and Commercial market with a range of tray back, dual/single cab options. Basically try and compete once again with Toyota and the 70 Series and get a slice of that massive market.

Timing is perfect as Toyota has suffered with QC and the Hilux and 70s Series cruisers aren't held as in high esteem as they once were for reliability and toughness and have lost ground in that market.

I'm very biased as i drive a 130, but I think the 130 is closer to the original philosophy of the Series 1 than the 90 or 110. It's a workhorse through and through and built for that purpose almost solely, you wouldn't buy one just to be a showpony, that's just impractical. If JLR don't offer an equivalent of the 130 and only have short wheel base versions for the new Deefer, then that will be the biggest departure from the original philosophy than any other design aspect as they'll be resigning the new Defender to being a passenger vehicle only, not a workhorse.

[Andrew86]

One would be in the sleek city SUV style and only release in 90 and 110 style configurations. Basically a slightly smaller, tougher looking Disco 5. Great off road and on the highway but by no means a workhorse

Toughness doesn't need to come at the expense of comfort these days and I certainly don't believe that a Defender has to cripple its owner to be true to its origins.

Common platforms can be configured in endless different ways to suit a specific buyer. It isn't a case of the next Defender being either a rugged workhorse or a comfortable adventurer - there's every chance they'll offer both in a family of Defender products.

[PAT303]

If they make the new defender like the original it will bomb,if they make the new defender like the original but fit it with better insulation,better ventilation,roomier seating,auto option and with 130kw/450Nm under the bonnet it will steal the market. Pat

[TimNZ]

So, a Discovery then Pat? :wasntme:

[ramblingboy42]

Puma is only an engine.

Not a vehicle.

I have a Puma.

[ramblingboy42]

to add to all the hyperbolising about the new defender and Pats last post , British Offroad will give you 140kw and 450nm now from your 2.2 Puma engine.

Jaguar give you 170kw from it.

so theorising Pat , the new defender could easily have still use the 2.2 Puma.

[Babs]

Case by case there may be differences. Some may have realised early on but others would be unaware. But after you spent that much on a leaky, dusty car with bad air-conditioning, you soon become captured :D. It's that first morning after a heavy rain and you find the passenger footwell full of water that it starts to sink in. But then you've spent so much money getting the car and apart from "insert problem here" it's a really great 4wd. Then before you know it, your subconscious forces you to love the car. Because if you sat back and actually thought objectively for a moment and realised that you'd spent all that hard earned on a loud, uncomfortable car that some psychotic designer into S&M designed the handbrake location for, you'd probably have an episode....:D Pricey


Ha ha ha. lol Well said

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[MR LR]

to add to all the hyperbolising about the new defender and Pats last post , British Offroad will give you 140kw and 450nm now from your 2.2 Puma engine.

Jaguar give you 170kw from it.

so theorising Pat , the new defender could easily have still use the 2.2 Puma.
Hahaha, they couldn't be so stupid...


Could they...?

[DiscoMick]

to add to all the hyperbolising about the new defender and Pats last post , British Offroad will give you 140kw and 450nm now from your 2.2 Puma engine.

Jaguar give you 170kw from it.

so theorising Pat , the new defender could easily have still use the 2.2 Puma.

I think emissions are the issue. The new Ingenium range is designed to meet future emissions standards, which are only going to get stricter.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Bobby D]

Toughness doesn't need to come at the expense of comfort these days and I certainly don't believe that a Defender has to cripple its owner to be true to its origins.

Common platforms can be configured in endless different ways to suit a specific buyer. It isn't a case of the next Defender being either a rugged workhorse or a comfortable adventurer - there's every chance they'll offer both in a family of Defender products.

I like the use the term "different" when describing the ride quality of the Deefer :p

I actually find mind really comfy, it's more the noise... and the water leaks. But the seating position is perfect, I don't know how anyone can find the being folded over like a taco position of almost all modern utes comfy, it does my back in.

I was referring more to the suspension, rather than the quality of the cabin comforts. The Disco is amazing, but it can't take a 1 & 1/2 tonne payload with it's suspension and never could. The greater the payload capability, the harsher the ride is when unladen. I think you're right though when you say they'll make a few models to cover: the chic urban weekend warrior couple / family tourer / and commercial workhorse. They've already made statements saying they plan to do something along those lines.

I'm actually all for a re-vamp of the Defender, it's exciting to see what they come up with. The biggest marketing potential they have will be the nostalgia and legacy of the Series and Deefer, so they'll cash-in heavily on that I believe.

[jon3950]

I think emissions are the issue. The new Ingenium range is designed to meet future emissions standards, which are only going to get stricter.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

And the fact that it's a Ford motor. The current supply contract would have been negotiated under very favorable terms because It was part of the sale to Tata. It would also be limited in it's scope to either existing models or a length of time.

Any new supply contract would not be so favourable. Ford don't need to sell the extra few thousand engines and JLR would not want to be reliant on another manufacturer, which is why they have developed their own range of engines.

Cheers,
Jon

[DiscoMick]

That's true. JLR needs to build its own engines to be a credible mass manufacturer. Apparently the new engines can be scaled up to various sizes.

[MR LR]

That's true. JLR needs to build its own engines to be a credible mass manufacturer. Apparently the new engines can be scaled up to various sizes.
It was all the plan once... Then the smelly Germans got involved and made a mess of it.

[PAT303]

So, a Discovery then Pat? :wasntme:

No I'm not biting :p. Pat

[PAT303]

to add to all the hyperbolising about the new defender and Pats last post , British Offroad will give you 140kw and 450nm now from your 2.2 Puma engine.

Jaguar give you 170kw from it.

so theorising Pat , the new defender could easily have still use the 2.2 Puma.

Ingenium engine,sub 3.0ltr is my guess. Pat

[PAT303]

That's true. JLR needs to build its own engines to be a credible mass manufacturer. Apparently the new engines can be scaled up to various sizes.

They didn't design the Ingenium for themselves,they designed it for the future engine market.Land Rover is run by a lot of smart cookies,emission standards are never going to go down so many companies will need new engines to meet the requirements,they will look at how many billions they will need to make their own or look at a company that has a modern engine plant making compliant engines with excess capacity to supply them.Land Rover meets all three requirements. Pat