Any Suggestion on Off Road Modification for Disco 4

[DIS4]

Hi, I had my disco 4 few months. It has AT Tyre, but a friend of mine thought it more road use. We went to little road trip, it complete useless on mud. Any suggestion how should change it to mud Tyre since I had 20" rim? I don't do it off road very often, what is good balance to use it? Should I just switch between AT or Mud when need it? Any brand or size recommend?

I also like to know the suggestion to have Disco 4 travel to Simpson dessert, I had been told that air suspension can be easily damaged by sand. Any experience? Spare part become a problem since my replaced bumper bar need to shipped from UK, it took 3-4 working days.

Then, I wonder whether is worthwell to modify Disco 4 or just get Landcruiser 80 for 10k plus (with mud tyre, bull bar and long range tank) to do hard work. In my research, Disco is equal to LC200 off road capacity, but it might not practical as the parts become an issue if things happen.

Thanks for your opinions!

[Drizzle]

Best bet is to change to 18" compomotive wheels where you'll have many more options for tyres. Tyre choice itself is subjective, but Bridgestone D697 and BF Goodrich KO2 are currently the only LT rated tyres in the preferred 265/60R18. (The KO2 will be available in a few weeks). The only mud tyre is the Achilles XMT, unless you want to go oversize which generates its own issues of rubbing and tyres not fitting in the spare wheel compartment.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/224718-just-ordered-my-compomotives.html

http://www.greenovalexperience.com/#!18-inch-rims/cglk

[Tombie]

As for comments on Airbags and Sand.
Obviously from some Toyota/Nissan owner who has no idea....

Spare parts are only days away for common items - and this is shared between ALL brands. So not exclusive to LR.

I've had to wait 6-8 weeks for a diff for a work Prado to come from Japan!!!

[digger]

Tombie will pop in soon im sure, he has made some additions and changes to
His D4..

[Graeme]

Tombie will pop in soon im sure,Sooner than you thought!

[jonesy63]

In addition to AT or MT tyres, the best bang-for-buck addition is driver training.

[guthrie]

We went to little road trip, it complete useless on mud. Any suggestion how should change it to mud Tyre since I had 20" rim?

It's worth doing a 4WD course if you can. I just did Gordon's (GOE) course and was amazed at the ability of my D4 wearing Highway tyres in muddy conditions. MT tyres will obviously go even better offroad, but they will be noisy on road.

[Tombie]

It's worth doing a 4WD course if you can. I just did Gordon's (GOE) course and was amazed at the ability of my D4 wearing Highway tyres in muddy conditions. MT tyres will obviously go even better offroad, but they will be noisy on road.


And not a necessity for such trips as Deserts etc

[BobD]

The D4 is definitely not useless in mud or sand. Might I suggest that you get hold of Gordon's book from the GOE web site and read it carefully.


My D4 has done thousands of km of sand driving. It is what we have most of in WA! The sand has had no effect on the suspension and I have no idea who would have propagated such a ridiculous statement. It is amazing what "experts" that have never seen a D4 can say!

[~Rich~]

LLAMS or Rods!!!! A must have.

[de7158]

Have both a 80 series Landcruiser and a D3. Both are kitted out for long range remote travel. Have never chosen to take the 80 series over the D3.
Both the wife and I have just come back from 4 months touring in the D3 around central Queensland, then Cape York, with a final leg east to west across the Simpson, up to Alice Springs via the the Old South Road, East & West Macdonnell Ranges, down to Uluru via Boggy Hole & Running Waters, with a return west to east crossing on the French Line back to Birdsville.
At the end of the trip we were both commenting on the different level of increased comfort and capability that the D3 offered over the 80 series.
Would still endure a trip in the 80 series if I had to, but absolutely loved it in the D3.
Only could imagine the comparison to a D4.
Fuel usage on the Simpson east to west crossing:
200 series Landcruiser 4.5, 140 lts
Disco 3 TDV6, 110lts
2 x Mazda BT50 TD, 105 lts
Peter

[DiscoMick]

MTs just dig holes in sand. Stick with ATs.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[LandyAndy]

If he has an early D4 with the 2.7 he wont need compomotive wheels,more info needed.
Andrew

[scarry]

As for comments on Airbags and Sand.
Obviously from some Toyota/Nissan owner who has no idea....

Spare parts are only days away for common items - and this is shared between ALL brands. So not exclusive to LR.

I've had to wait 6-8 weeks for a diff for a work Prado to come from Japan!!!

Got the last Hiace diff in the country,when one of ours failed about 10months ago.
We are now waiting,four weeks,they are saying, for a complete side panel for one that has been in an accident.

Family member waited six weeks for a left hand mirror complete for a GU.

As for LR's,have never had to wait for a part ever.

Probably because they hardly ever need them:angel::D

[DoctorJ]

In regards to tyres I found moving to a 4 rib pattern AT the best addition I made to my D3. It completes the package of what the vehicle already can achieve off road. Yes it is noisier on road but my driving experience off road is magic

Sent from my GT-I9195T using AULRO mobile app

[~Rich~]

MTs just dig holes in sand. Stick with ATs.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Don't you believe that!
A MT will outperform a square edged AT such as a BFG in sand.
The square edge will work against you especially when turning in sand.
Like any tyre, tyre pressure will also make a huge difference.

[Tombie]

Don't you believe that!

A MT will outperform a square edged AT such as a BFG in sand.

The square edge will work against you especially when turning in sand.

Like any tyre, tyre pressure will also make a huge difference.


Spot on...

The secret to MTs and Sand is gentle :)

[Drizzle]

If he has an early D4 with the 2.7 he wont need compomotive wheels,more info needed.
Andrew

Yes, it's possible. Although unlikely, as the D4 2.7 was standard with 18" Wheels.

[scarry]

Spot on...

The secret to MTs and Sand is gentle :)

Exactly,don't really want to say this,but i recon my sons puma with MT's is better in sand than my D4 with A/T's.

No matter what the tyre pressures.

Hope he isn't on here ATM:o

[LandyAndy]

Yes, it's possible. Although unlikely, as the D4 2.7 was standard with 18" Wheels.
He said his has 20".They aint standard,Bling wheels.
Andrew

[Drizzle]

He said his has 20".They aint standard,Bling wheels.
Andrew

Hence why it's possible, but unlikely to be a 2.7 ;)

[LandyAndy]

Thats why I asked for more information!!!!
Lots of bling wheels on D3 and D4s;);););)
Andrew

[gghaggis]

Exactly,don't really want to say this,but i recon my sons puma with MT's is better in sand than my D4 with A/T's.

No matter what the tyre pressures.

Hope he isn't on here ATM:o

Umm - shouldn't be the case. A D4 on any type of tyre should run circles around a Puma Defender in sand.

Cheers

Gordon

[ozscott]

The Defender being light helps in sand.

Cheers

[jonesy63]

The Defender being light helps in sand.

Cheers

Ie. Elephant in gum boots vs sumo wrestler in hiking boots. :wasntme:

[ozscott]

HAHA. Its much lighter mate. Weight matters in sand. Cheers

[jonesy63]

Precisely - which is why tyre pressure (foot print) is vital in sand. You don't want to go in sand wearing stilettos (highway pressure). :D

[Redback]

Call me a sceptic, all sounds fishy to me, happy to be proven wrong:spudnikcoinflip::whistling:

[Tombie]

Precisely - which is why tyre pressure (foot print) is vital in sand. You don't want to go in sand wearing stilettos (highway pressure). :D

Baz lowers his tyre pressures, but still keeps the Stilettos on :angel:

[BobD]

Have a look at one of Gordon's videos of a D4 towing a camper trailer up a steep sandhill at Yanchep and tell us that a Puma could do that.

[ozscott]

Perhaps the Puma could not (it might...) - but towing in heavy sand is where massive torque and power is a very helpful thing. When its vehicles by themselves the difference in weights is a big thing. Its all relative. I am not having a go (god forbid) at the D4 what I am saying is that with just the vehicle the weight of the D4 works against it in soft sand versus the Puma (and that is just a fact). There are also tyres which is very important but again I wont go into that cause its touchy. Now put the same power/torque in the puma and watch it become better in sand than a D4 towing (because it is a ligther package and has great big tyres). In terms of weight being a big thing, think the old Zuk's and even further back the Model T Ford - despite skinny (yet tall..read shallow approach angle for the tyre...) it was exceptionally light and allowed the car to go through deep sand with a puny engine - now attach a 1.5 tonn camper and its not doing anywhere.

My D2 recently had a dose of 4.6 litres and in the softest powdery sand from 700rpm it just pulls out like a steam train from walking pace. Its crazy. Then again its got 31 inch tyres on 16's too and they are aired down to give a nice long footprint. So the ideal sand vehicle is gobs of torque and power combined with good tyres and low weight. The D4 is good in sand despite the weight and tyres, which proves what a great powerplant and gearing it has. Lets not write off peoples experience however with other models of the brand - ie the above post about the poster's son's Puma. He is also not the only one who has made such comments over the years. Now sure put a big load on the back of each vehicle and point them up a steep sand hill and the D4 3.0 TT should do better.

Cheers

[BobD]

Now put the same power/torque in the puma and watch it become better in sand than a D4 towing (because it is a ligther package and has great big tyres).
Cheers


Unfortunately the Puma doesn't have the same power and torque, which is exactly Gordon's point.

My comment was actually a little bit tongue in cheek and added for a bit of fun! My D4 with its larger tyres is fantastic in sand, as long as I lower tyre pressures. If I'm lazy and don't lower tyre pressures I may come to stop. If that happens and I drop pressures to around 18 it just drives straight out.

[ozscott]

No worries Bob - yes of course you and Gordon are right in that the Puma does not have the same grunt as the 3.0 TT. I think we are on the same page.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Don't you believe that!
A MT will outperform a square edged AT such as a BFG in sand.
The square edge will work against you especially when turning in sand.
Like any tyre, tyre pressure will also make a huge difference.



The MTRs I had on the D1 certainly dug big holes in the Simpson Desert's dunes, until I lowered them from 20 to 16psi. Other vehicles with ATs, also lowered, cruised over the same dunes. The chunkier the tread the more likely it is to dig holes in sand, I reckon.

[DiscoMick]

A D4 would be around 500kg or so heavier than a Defender 110, so that much extra weight has to have an effect in sand, surely?

[BobD]

Just for a bit of interest, we were playing on that same hill one day with me in my 6.5 Chev diesel powered GQ, my son in his gutless TDI 300 and my other son in a 4.2 turbo GU Patrol (nearly as gutless). The Chev with its massive torque just powers up the hill any way you like in third low. The other two got stuck half way on every run and we got them up using Maxtrax and a snatch from the GQ. My GQ has 33's but the D4 will usually run rings around it in sand and even gets further up very steep soft sand hills that will stop anything. It has 600Nm and the Chev is a bit over 400Nm. My D4 is heavy as you can see from the options list in my signature.

[ozscott]

Just for a bit of interest, we were playing on that same hill one day with me in my 6.5 Chev diesel powered GQ, my son in his gutless TDI 300 and my other son in a 4.2 turbo GU Patrol (nearly as gutless). The Chev with its massive torque just powers up the hill any way you like in third low. The other two got stuck half way on every run and we got them up using Maxtrax and a snatch from the GQ. My GQ has 33's but the D4 will usually run rings around it in sand and even gets further up very steep soft sand hills that will stop anything. It has 600Nm and the Chev is a bit over 400Nm. My D4 is heavy as you can see from the options list in my signature.

Thats interesting about the Chev - thats less torque than my 4.6 high compression motor. What is the power on that?

Cheers

[Tombie]

Some quick back of the envelope calcs...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=98495&stc=1&d=1441256925

[ozscott]

Nice work Tombie!

Cheers

[gghaggis]

Tombie,

I think your power to weight ratios are a tad optimistic - by a few orders of magnitude!

I've not seen the Defender Autobiography, which engine is that?

The Def 90 should be around 50 Kw/tonne, the SDV6 is closer to 74 Kw/T

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

The autobiography was a celebration special.

Interestingly the autobiography has far higher torque per tonn than the D4 3.0TT. The stock 2.2 has about the same torque per tonn as the D4 (very slightly less for the deefer) - Deefer has significantly lower gearing so idling around in first or second low expect more actual torque through the wheels from the gearing advantage.

Cheers

[gghaggis]

The autobiography was a celebration special.

Interestingly the autobiography has far higher torque per tonn than the D4 3.0TT. The stock 2.2 has about the same torque per tonn as the D4 (very slightly less for the deefer) - Deefer has significantly lower gearing so idling around in first or second low expect more actual torque through the wheels from the gearing advantage.

Cheers

A D90 has 198 Nm / T - an SDV6 has 234.

Found the Autobiography - the Limited Release Series (coincidentally I sat in a Def Adventure Limited Edition today - very nice!). No, it is not "far higher torque per tonn than the D4 3.0TT". It's 202 Nm /T for a 110.

Cheers,

Gordon

[ozscott]

Mate - I got the number crunching wrong - yes there isnt much in it. The autobiography per tonn is as high as that in the 90 I think.


I was vascilating between throwing in a nice 4.6 into the D2 and getting one of the last defenders...ended up doing the former given all the other gear I have added, but the special deefers are a nice set up.

Cheers

[LRD414]

Tombie, I think your power to weight ratios are a tad optimistic - by a few orders of magnitude!

I think Tombie just transposed the units in his calc so it was kg/kW and therefore a smaller number is better.

Anyway, it shows that the D4 and Defender are similar (depending on which models are compared) for power/weight and torque/weight ratios.

But I've been wondering about factoring in tyre contact patch for sand driving? For example, how much bigger is the area of a contact patch for 16" wheel versus 18" wheel when both are aired down to typical sand driving pressure?

A bigger contact area means less pressure on the ground, reducing the tendency to sink into the sand. Does a smaller wheel with more tyre have a bigger contact patch? Perhaps not easily comparable because you would air down to different pressures to compensate anyway.:confused:

Scott

[ozscott]

Yes mate - high profile equals longer footprint - when both tyres are aired down the higher profile one will always go further fore and aft - say when compaing a 19 inch 31 inch overall with a 16 inch 31 inch overall. Its not all about torque when not towing either - weights is important. Picture a Moris Minor strapped on top of the Defender and you are getting close to the weight of a D4 :D

LT's take a fair bit more to air down properly than a passenger rated tyre. 18 PSI in my LT's (16 inch rims) hardly look different to 40 psi such is the carcass rigity from strength). I have to get to 14 before it starts to look ok.

Cheers

[Drizzle]

Theoretically, it's the same size footprint...

Why Wide Tyres Don't Help In Sand | outbackjoe (http://outbackjoe.com/macho-divertissement/macho-articles/why-wide-tyres-dont-help-in-sand/)

[gghaggis]

The radius of curvature is greater for a larger rim, so for the same profile, a larger rim will give a greater footprint. As most larger rims are fitted with lower profiles, you start to trade that off, but the difference is nowhere near what most people think. The real issue is how much more vulnerable the larger rim + tyre is when you air down a low profile tyre.

With respect to power and torque to weight, the D4 SDV6 has a 50% (power to weight) and 20% (torque to weight) advantage over a standard D90, which is considerable.

Cheers,

Gordon

[LRD414]

Interesting. The conclusion of that article is ........

"So for tyres and sand driving, tyre pressure dominates all other factors to the extent that other factors mostly don't matter. There may be some other factors at play but they are dwarfed by the effect of pressure. Reduce pressure until you float on top. Any tyre will work."

<EDIT: supports Gordon's point above, except ignores consideration of vulnerability.>

Thus you can counteract the extra weight of the D4 with lower tyre pressure and then take full advantage of the extra torque and traction control.

Scott

[Jimlr]

On tyre footprints, have a play with this calculator.

BND TechSource - Tire Data Calculator (http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/tire_data_calculator/0-20)

Milimetre for Milimetre there is not actually very much in it, say between 19s/20s and 18s.....although the LT 18 tyre has other advantages and characteristics, as noted above.

[jon3950]

All well and good, but other than on smooth bitumen there is not one situation that I would choose 19" rims in preference to 16"s.

As brilliant as the D4 is (and it really is brilliant) running 19"s has been a frustrating experience. Even on-road I would take the 18"s. I cannot understand the modern obsession with low profile tyres.

The only modification these vehicles need is 18" rims and decent rubber.

Cheers,
Jon

[ozscott]

Theoretically, it's the same size footprint...



Why Wide Tyres Don't Help In Sand | outbackjoe (http://outbackjoe.com/macho-divertissement/macho-articles/why-wide-tyres-dont-help-in-sand/)


There was a very good article in a 4wd mag about 10 years ago that measured contact patches in real terms, not theoretical terms. The high profile skinnier tyres had longer and larger areas than lower profile fatter tyres when aired down - there was quite a bit in it,

Cheers

[ozscott]

Interesting. The conclusion of that article is ........

"So for tyres and sand driving, tyre pressure dominates all other factors to the extent that other factors mostly don't matter. There may be some other factors at play but they are dwarfed by the effect of pressure. Reduce pressure until you float on top. Any tyre will work."

<EDIT: supports Gordon's point above, except ignores consideration of vulnerability.>

Thus you can counteract the extra weight of the D4 with lower tyre pressure and then take full advantage of the extra torque and traction control.

Scott


Mate where he says tyre pressure dominates over any other factor he is referring to the factors of width versus height not vehicle weight. And in the real world using contact recording a 31 in high profile achieves a considerably longer and greater volume contact area than a fat 31 low profile.

Cheers

[DiscoDB]

.....probably off topic, but backing up the truck a few posts to where Tombie left off, when comparing torque to weight ratio's, don't forget to factor in the torque multiplication from the overall gearing ratio's as Tombie was reflecting in his table. The Defender has much lower gearing and hence much higher torque at the wheels. Combined with lighter weight gives it the advantage on a torque (at wheels) to weight ratio. Comparing engine torque to weight without factoring in gearing has little meaning (unless comparing two vehicles with the same gearing set up like different engines in the same vehicle).

But as I said getting off topic.

[DIS4]

The D4 is definitely not useless in mud or sand. Might I suggest that you get hold of Gordon's book from the GOE web site and read it carefully.


My D4 has done thousands of km of sand driving. It is what we have most of in WA! The sand has had no effect on the suspension and I have no idea who would have propagated such a ridiculous statement. It is amazing what "experts" that have never seen a D4 can say!

Sorry, mate. I never mean to D4 is useless in mud, but mud /LT tyre is better than pirelli scorpion atr tyre 255/50R20 that I have now. I had done off training and knew D4 got the capacity to off-road condition. Some how, my AT let me down that I could not stop on downhill mud road, crash into another Nissan patrol.Most of vehicles with Lt tyre escaped without problem, but driving in the dark on 1st trip wan't helping.

Then, change a good mud tyre is priority if I want more off road. The noise likely be an issue if I do lot more on road. Also costly to get all gears equipped, some mates rather get a fully equipped LC80 from 10-15k than upgrade D4 will cost more. Thanks all opinions shared.

[gghaggis]

The Defender has much lower gearing and hence much higher torque at the wheels. Combined with lighter weight gives it the advantage on a torque (at wheels) to weight ratio.

True to an extent - but the torque to weight figure already accounts for the difference in weights, and one doesn't generally do sand driving in low 1st!

Cheers,

Gordon

[Celtoid]

Theoretically, it's the same size footprint...

Why Wide Tyres Don't Help In Sand | outbackjoe (http://outbackjoe.com/macho-divertissement/macho-articles/why-wide-tyres-dont-help-in-sand/)


"Why Wide Tyres Don't Help In Sand"

It's funny that he doesn't actually say that at all, 'cause that comment is out of context.

He starts off by tying to eliminate variables to get things down to the basics of pressure and contact area. But then his article actually acknowledges that there are a shed load of variable that make it hard to compare apples to apples outside the world of theory.

However, there is a big paragraph that reads to me like it contradicts his article title....."A wider tyre will need to flex less to achieve the same footprint of a narrower tyre. This means a wider tyre may be able to run at a lower pressure when compared to a narrower tyre, as the narrow tyre will deform more and so increase the risk of pinching the tyre tread between the rim and the ground. In this case a wider tyre may offer a slight advantage since it can be run at lower pressure, however for a typically weighted car, extreme minimum tyre pressure is determined by the minimum pressure required to keep the tyre bead seated rather than the rim impacting the tyre. So a wide tyre may not offer any benefit." The only negative he points to there is the chance of losing the tyre off the rim at extremely low pressure.

Sounds to me he's saying a wider tyre can achieve a larger contact area easier (safer in the real world) than taller ones, as long as you don't drop too far. Does that mean that the skinny tall tyres are well out of the race by then?

He does say width definitely isn't a negative ..... so what happens if you have wide tyres that are tall?

Anybody confused? .... LOL!!! :-/

[ozscott]

Haha. Yes clear as mud isn't it. You can go too wide in sand. I have seen vehicles with very wide tyres that simply are poor in sand....the silly but clearly understood example is picturing a log being rolled in sand versus a tall thin tyre...log has a considerable build up of a sand wedge along its length that needs to be fought against and overcome all the time.

A taller tyre will be able to deform a lot and still have more meat than a wide very low profile at road pressure so I don't agree with his comments.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Haha. Yes clear as mud isn't it. You can go too wide in sand. I have seen vehicles with very wide tyres that simply are poor in sand....the silly but clearly understood example is picturing a log being rolled in sand versus a tall thin tyre...log has a considerable build up of a sand wedge along its length that needs to be fought against and overcome all the time.

A taller tyre will be able to deform a lot and still have more meat than a wide very low profile at road pressure so I don't agree with his comments.

Cheers

Yeah, I've heard the log analogy too but he's refuting that theory. I think he's saying if you have excessive build-up (regardless of width), some of the variables are wrong, like the tyre pressure for the weight of your vehicle for example.

I guess it's all about getting the balance right in all the factors to match the conditions to get the right amount of contact patch......without risking tyre damage.

I think he's clear in what he means .... he's just muddied the water a bit trying to talk about all the contributing factors.

My 285/60/18s seem to work pretty well in soft sand ..... about to be re-tested in a few weeks time on Moreton Is. :-)

I guess in practical terms, the physical limitations of your vehicle will play a major part. For example ..... the old LC the Police use on Moreton Is is basic, not too heavy and has the ability to run small wheels with skinny tyres at pretty low pressures. However, a 3 ton, 3.0l D4 can only get 18" wheels, so getting the extra contact patch from much taller, 'skinny' tyres is limited without modifying the car illegally. So I guess you have to go wider to spread the pressure.

[ozscott]

Mate those big tyres on the 18's would be fine I reckon...60 percent of 285 nominal is a good margin. I have just come back from Moreton...great fun.

Cheers

[Celtoid]

Mate those big tyres on the 18's would be fine I reckon...60 percent of 285 nominal is a good margin. I have just come back from Moreton...great fun.

Cheers

Thanks mate.

I've been on Bribie, Moreton and Fraser Is a few times with them with no issues. In fact, last time on Fraser I switched everything off (drove in High-Range & Highway Mode) to conserve fuel and only turned anything on at Indian Head where it was a bit hairier.

However, each time it hadn't been super, super dry .... but I still recon they will go great.

What's Moreton like, there hasn't been a lot of rain lately?

Cheers.

[ozscott]

It was dryish a couple of weeks ago. The inland track was cut up but good. The softest track was the resort bypass road to The Desert but still easy. I have been through Indian when it was very dry and it was boggy but no drama, was fun sailing past the bogged 100 series x 2 and a GQ Ute. You won't have any dramas at Moteton. Just be careful if coming from the lookout and crossing over the East West track to the West East track (ie near the beach). It looks harmless but I can slightly airborn in the rear end at 15 kph....was a hump that didn't look like a hump in the dappled sun and shade!

Cheers

Ps. Now talking sand, this is the to do Big Red

http://youtu.be/Uc-4ZLoLosY

[Bytemrk]

Lots of talk about tyres, but my number one mod if I was kitting out a new one would be Llams (http://www.llams.com.au/). :thumbsup: Bloody great piece of kit.

Who ever told you that rubbish about sand and the air suspension should be totally ignored from here on. :angel:

[ozscott]

Yes without clearance at speed it can all be a bit academic.

Cheers

[Greatsouthernland]

100 * :BigThumb: Llams

Tyres
Batteries
Water tanks
UHF, HF Codan, Sat phone, EPIRB, Fuel capacity, Snorkel, Tint, LR assist :D

[ozscott]

I came across this today which is bang on point for this thread.

Cheers

Land Rover Discovery 4 (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/buyers-guide-wagons-large/land-rover-discovery-4)

[gghaggis]

That article is 5 years old. A lot has changed in the tyre and rim market since.

Cheers

Gordon

[ozscott]

Yes, agreed tougher tyres but comments re weight and 19 in rims are pertinent to the thread?

Cheers

[Tombie]

Bytemark will probably agree with this...

The D4 has the ability to make rough seem smooth and entice a faster pace than suitable for conditions...

This is one of the key factors in tyre damage on these vehicles.

After Mark and I had a nice chat about it, photography and the universe :D we agreed vigilance of track in front, keeping pace respectable and correct pressures are the best way to preserve tyres..

Mark then went on to do over 2500km on Gibber etc without issue...

[gghaggis]

Yes, agreed tougher tyres but comments re weight and 19 in rims are pertinent to the thread?

Cheers

The whole article is probably pertinent, as long as one puts the comments regarding issues in the context of being 5 years old.

The number 1 mod for off-roading a D4 is a decent set of tyres (of which there are now more choices).

The number 2 would be more control of the height (of which there are now at least 2 choices).

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

I came across this today which is bang on point for this thread.

Cheers

Land Rover Discovery 4 (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/buyers-guide-wagons-large/land-rover-discovery-4)


Anyway Scott when are you going to get a D3/4?

[ozscott]

Dont tempt me Terry. My 4.6 is not playing ball at the moment. Bloody cars.

Cheers

[LandyAndy]

The whole article is probably pertinent, as long as one puts the comments regarding issues in the context of being 5 years old.

The number 1 mod for off-roading a D4 is a decent set of tyres (of which there are now more choices).

The number 2 would be more control of the height (of which there are now at least 2 choices).

Cheers,

Gordon

Gordon.
Most of us have the height under control,tyres in 19 inch are limited,in your vast experience where should we be looking until we can afford your rims???
Andrew

[de7158]

Just come home from a four month trip around Central Queensland, Cape York and a double crossing of the Simpson Desert including East & West Macdonnell Ranges.
What issues did I have to manage.

Replaced a engine battery in Alice Springs.

EAS compressor failed two weeks from the end. Would have caused a major inconvenience if a didn't have one of Gorden's Air Up Kits installed. Was a matter of pulling fuse and re-inflating individual air shocks by tyre air compressor. Was fully loaded so helped air compressor by using a high lift jack to take some weight of the corners while inflating to what I thought was off road height by using a tape measure at each wheel arch to wheel centre. As the wife and I were travelling most of the last section by ourselves I didn't want to compound the situation by burning out my tyre air compressor. Adjusted height depending whether i needed off road or normal height. Finished the trip including a west to east crossing on the French Line across the Simpson Desert.

Picked up a 4 inch nail as we drove into Charleville, pulled it out then inserted a plug...easy repair.

So in my case the essential items I needed were:
1. GOE Air Up Kit (large) i.e. don't leave home with out it installed and tested, would not want to be plumbing either kit in on the side of a track!
2. Decent air compressor ( at least to 150psi) for both tyres and EAS.
3. High lift jack. Had a exhaust jack as well but can't beat a high lift for speed. Could do both fronts and backs air shocks re-inflate with a single lift at the front then back.
4. Tyre repair kit.

Didn't use a code reader, but it'll be my next purchase. Might be able to retire my 13mm spanner from hard reset duties.

Oh, just another thought, if your travel companions are in a overloaded BT50 extra cab ute, take a dozen or so 2.5mm welding rods, steel plate and heavy jumper leads so you can do a chassis repair whilst in the desert. Saved him a expensive call out from Birdsville and only took 3 hours to plate and weld both sides. Made him cut up his own beatifully made drop down frig slides for the plate and use his own batteries x2 for the weld. Was told to bring some off cut steel plates with him before he left, but he was in a bit of denial about the the high possibility of damaging his chassis. He ended up having to head home via the Plenty Highway instead of returning by the French Line.

Cheers
Peter

[gghaggis]

Gordon.
Most of us have the height under control,tyres in 19 inch are limited,in your vast experience where should we be looking until we can afford your rims???
Andrew

Certainly in WA, the Hankook ATM RF-10's are the best value with a reasonably strong construction. I have them on both the Sport and the D4, although they're just starting to drone a little on the Sport (could be my poor alignment though, which I've just rectified).

Cheers,

Gordon

[TerryO]

The Nitto Terra Graplers that I have on D4's 20" rims after 30,000 k's are now starting to drone Gordon, how many k's do you have on the Hankooks?

[gghaggis]

The Nitto Terra Graplers that I have on D4's 20" rims after 30,000 k's are now starting to drone Gordon, how many k's do you have on the Hankooks?

Only around 15000, but as I mentioned, my alignment has been out for a while, so I suspect it's taken its toll on the (front) tyres. I'll monitor the D4 for a while and see how they wear on that - so far only 3200 km!

Cheers,

Gordon

[LandyAndy]

When you swap them Gordon try them on the opposite sides.Should help with evening the wear on the tread blocks by running them backwards,this should quieten them down;););)
Andrew

[DIS4]

The radius of curvature is greater for a larger rim, so for the same profile, a larger rim will give a greater footprint. As most larger rims are fitted with lower profiles, you start to trade that off, but the difference is nowhere near what most people think. The real issue is how much more vulnerable the larger rim + tyre is when you air down a low profile tyre.

With respect to power and torque to weight, the D4 SDV6 has a 50% (power to weight) and 20% (torque to weight) advantage over a standard D90, which is considerable.

Cheers,

Gordon


Thanks for sharing the experience. I will try to get hold 18" compomotive rim with 50% AT tyres. One question, will Land Rover void the warranty if I fit the height sensor rods and Liam's?

Cheers,

Gary

[LRD414]

Gary,

Your warranty can only be voided by an aftermarket accessory if it can be proven that the accessory caused or contributed to the fault. Also, you would not typically fit aftermarket height sensor rods and Llams. It's more of an either/or proposition, with each having pros and cons.

Cheers,
Scott

[DIS4]

Gary,

Your warranty can only be voided by an aftermarket accessory if it can be proven that the accessory caused or contributed to the fault. Also, you would not typically fit aftermarket height sensor rods and Llams. It's more of an either/or proposition, with each having pros and cons.

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks, Mate. How do you compare both options? It will be nice to raise the height without major modification. I will practice Gordon's tips to trick the DIS4 raise to emergency height when needed, it is annoying those mates on LC200 keep saying they are more capable to do off-road.

Cheers,

Gary

[LandyAndy]

The rods are indetectable at the dealer,only mins to replace.
I intend getting the llams unit into the future.I have a set of rods which Im yet to try.
I think you will destroy your mates 200 series off road.The rods help you keep your speed up off road,the height isnt a worry,just the dropping to on-road height over 50kmh:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
The other show stopper is our poxy choice of tyre size:mad::mad::mad::mad:
Andrew

[Celtoid]

Thanks, Mate. How do you compare both options? It will be nice to raise the height without major modification. I will practice Gordon's tips to trick the DIS4 raise to emergency height when needed, it is annoying those mates on LC200 keep saying they are more capable to do off-road.

Cheers,

Gary


I'm pretty certain a D4 standard has as much, if not more clearance than an LC200. Both cars have hang points in different places.


Go for a drive ..... that's usually all it takes unless they are Toyo addicts ...

[LRD414]

Thanks, Mate. How do you compare both options? It will be nice to raise the height without major modification. I will practice Gordon's tips to trick the DIS4 raise to emergency height when needed, it is annoying those mates on LC200 keep saying they are more capable to do off-road.

Llams vs Rods - I considered cost, ease-of-use, functionality and ability to return to stock when I made this decision. Everybody will weigh up these factors a bit differently to suit their personal circumstances and intended use, so this is just one opinion.

I appreciate the ability that Llams provides to select the additional heights while driving, at will & almost immediately (~5 sec delay). Particularly offroad height for driving at 50-60kph and extended height without the drop-on-to-something trick, plus extra low for some city carparks with a roofrack onboard. You can achieve almost all this with rods but it's more fiddly.

I also appreciate having the recovery mode available with Llams that can get the suspension back to normal height if ABS related faults were to trigger lowering to minimum height. I haven't had to use this function but like knowing it's there (and I possibly haven't described the relevant faults properly).

So for me, the extra cost is worth it for the extra ease-of-use and functionality gained. That leaves the returning-to-stock consideration. This is easier with rods but not too difficult with Llams as it is a relatively quick task to unplug the module and return to original connections. Obviously the Llams dial will still be in place and could be a point of disagreement in a suspension related warranty discussion. But a number of people have been through such a scenario without too many dramas (no issues for me so far, touch wood).

Here's an old thread with lots of other opinions on the subject:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/157287-llams-rods-one-why.html


LC200 is better - I aim to ignore this sort of uninformed, ill considered and ignorant "expert opinion" with a Jedi like calm. I know what I've got and how good it is and that's all that really matters in the end. It's a waste of breath with most people that don't want to hear it or think about it, although it still occasionally surprises me how little real knowledge is out there among the unwashed masses :(.

However, if it's your mates and it's good natured and a bit of fun, just give it back as good as you get and don't let facts get in the way :)

Cheers,
Scott

[jon3950]

I know what I've got and how good it is and that's all that really matters in the end.

Amen.

[Geedublya]

My thoughts on LLAMS, GOE rods and the IIDTool for suspension height changes.

Most convenient - LLAMS. You can't beat the ease of use. If you have elderly /disabled passengers or need to access a low carpark LLAMS comes to the fore. If you are going from off-road to bitumen and back numerous times LLAMS will also be the easiest.

Best value - GOE rods. They are cheap they are robust, they give you the lift you want and get rid of the chime. Changing them over is easy on the front and a bit more difficult on the rear especially the first time.

Now the IIDTool not as convenient as LLAMS and about the same if not a little better than the rods. About the same price as LLAMS, however it does have the benefit of being a diagnostic tool and being able to modify some of the CCF.

If you are going to buy a diagnostic tool and you choose the IIDTool you wouldn't bother with the GOE rods. I already had the rods when I bought my IIDTool and I no longer bother changing them over. If you need to change heights beyond the standard settings often choose LLAMS.

With my IIDTool I have three calibrations saved and the factory default. Normal day to day is set 10mm below standard, this gives me more clearance in my garage and gives me a little more plushness in the suspension. When going off-road I set the height to my second setting +50mm which gives me plenty of clearance for normal obstacles and if more is needed I can go to off-road height. I have the third setting at +65mm though I haven't used it yet. If I'm just doing a short drive on bitumen (<50km) I stay at +50mm.

[DIS4]

Any work shop supply and fit Liam's kit in Melbourne? Any good alternative to 18" compomotive rims since GOE is out of stock until Jan 2016? I only have a bot more free time over Christmas. Sadly to see two mates gave up their Dis4 to LC, I don't know if they ever learn to drive Dis4. Therefore, I will show them how DIS4 is capable to off-road later. Beach port is the place we will go.

Cheers,

Gary

[Dagilmo]

Any work shop supply and fit Liam's kit in Melbourne?

I did my own install and I'm not very bright so I suggest any mechanic could do it. Instructions from Graeme are good and easy to follow.

[DIS4]

Llams vs Rods - I considered cost, ease-of-use, functionality and ability to return to stock when I made this decision. Everybody will weigh up these factors a bit differently to suit their personal circumstances and intended use, so this is just one opinion.

I appreciate the ability that Llams provides to select the additional heights while driving, at will & almost immediately (~5 sec delay). Particularly offroad height for driving at 50-60kph and extended height without the drop-on-to-something trick, plus extra low for some city carparks with a roofrack onboard. You can achieve almost all this with rods but it's more fiddly.

I also appreciate having the recovery mode available with Llams that can get the suspension back to normal height if ABS related faults were to trigger lowering to minimum height. I haven't had to use this function but like knowing it's there (and I possibly haven't described the relevant faults properly).

So for me, the extra cost is worth it for the extra ease-of-use and functionality gained. That leaves the returning-to-stock consideration. This is easier with rods but not too difficult with Llams as it is a relatively quick task to unplug the module and return to original connections. Obviously the Llams dial will still be in place and could be a point of disagreement in a suspension related warranty discussion. But a number of people have been through such a scenario without too many dramas (no issues for me so far, touch wood).

Here's an old thread with lots of other opinions on the subject:
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/157287-llams-rods-one-why.html


LC200 is better - I aim to ignore this sort of uninformed, ill considered and ignorant "expert opinion" with a Jedi like calm. I know what I've got and how good it is and that's all that really matters in the end. It's a waste of breath with most people that don't want to hear it or think about it, although it still occasionally surprises me how little real knowledge is out there among the unwashed masses :(.

However, if it's your mates and it's good natured and a bit of fun, just give it back as good as you get and don't let facts get in the way :)

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks, Soctt. You are right that I would ignore those negative sentiments, pick up more skills along way and show how capable DISC4 can be. It is sad that two of them actually own DISC4 and leave it to the miss shopping and picking up kids, perhaps they like the simplicity and low cost maintenance of LC range. We talked about going to Simpsons, one of them actually think air suspension is not great for sand driving. they perhaps only want LC, FJ or Patrol, Wrangler in their convey in case of faulty, and easy to repair.

Cheers,

Gary

[jon3950]

We talked about going to Simpsons, one of them actually think air suspension is not great for sand driving. they perhaps only want LC, FJ or Patrol, Wrangler in their convey in case of faulty, and easy to repair.


Another Toyota driving expert. Did they elaborate on why they aren't great?

[DIS4]

Another Toyota driving expert. Did they elaborate on why they aren't great?

He thought air suspension is not reliable as other methods, might be good on road and can caused the problem by sand. Coil doesn't have such problem, this is why many farmers using LC Series as for its simplicity. However, I should prove they are wrong on the issues once I get DISC 4 well equipped.

[The Fizz]

All equipment modifications aside, STILL, the most cost effective and useful off road modification comes with good driver training, and/or experience. I've seen it time and time again where a fully knitted out off road beast is bogged to the axles and I drive around them in my soft roader on S/T tyres.

As a military member wiith over 20 years driving in pretty much every condition you can imagine, I can say unequivocally that a poor driver in a great vehicle will go nowhere, whereas, a good driver, who assesses the obstacle, selects the right gear (when appropriate), and attacks (sorry for the aggressive words here - it's in my nature) the obstacle at the correct speed, picking a pre-selected line as appropriate for the vehicle, can go pretty much anywhere in a standard vehicle, with average tyres.

Go get yourself some training mate. Then decide what mods you need. All good advice on here about suspension and tyre mods from very knowledgeable people, but I guarantee they are all moderate to very experienced drivers first.

[SBD4]

THE FIZZ is spot on. As a novice driver of the Disco you would do well to make sure you are fully aware of how to use the cars capabilities properly. If you don't, you will be guaranteed to fulfill the "prophecy" of your mates - especially in sand.

Get a copy of this companion manual from GOE and make an effort to understand it fully:

Green Oval Experience Land Rover training, Range Rover modifcation (http://www.greenovalexperience.com/#!product/prd2/1041448864/goe-offroad-companion-booklet)

If GOE are holding a training session in your city make a point of attending:

Green Oval Experience Land Rover training, Range Rover modifcation (http://www.greenovalexperience.com/#!product/prd2/3715365771/terrain-response-seminar)

Make sure you keep asking questions here - we'll all try to help.

[Melbourne Park]

The LR clubs have training too, and its low cost. Compared to the Vic Land Cruiser setup, which is quite expensive. I bought a 150 Prado, and thought I'd join the land cruiser club. The cost for the club required an additional driver training. I told them I'd already done it in the older Prado - but they said because my membership had lapsed, I had to pay for it all again. Over $400 for it, on top of the membership. Way more expensive than Land Rover's setup. Do the training, its fun and informative. And yes GOE would be good too.

You also get some nice magazines and lots of tours to go to.

[Bytemrk]

I can say unequivocally that a poor driver in a great vehicle will go nowhere, whereas, a good driver, who assesses the obstacle, selects the right gear (when appropriate), and attacks (sorry for the aggressive words here - it's in my nature) the obstacle at the correct speed, picking a pre-selected line as appropriate for the vehicle, can go pretty much anywhere in a standard vehicle, with average tyres.

Go get yourself some training mate.

Great advice Fizz.

[DIS4]

The LR clubs have training too, and its low cost. Compared to the Vic Land Cruiser setup, which is quite expensive. I bought a 150 Prado, and thought I'd join the land cruiser club. The cost for the club required an additional driver training. I told them I'd already done it in the older Prado - but they said because my membership had lapsed, I had to pay for it all again. Over $400 for it, on top of the membership. Way more expensive than Land Rover's setup. Do the training, its fun and informative. And yes GOE would be good too.

You also get some nice magazines and lots of tours to go to.

I already joined the VIC LR Club, had completed proficiency training and booked an advanced course which had been delayed by brushfire near training ground. That is why I am willing to invest more to go further. LLAMS and off-road rims are on my shopping list. Of course, Gordon little booklet had been bonus on top what I learned.

[Oztourer]

Great advice Fizz.

I second that. I did a 4WD training course near Lithgow at the beginning of the year. Unfortunately I didn't have my D3 at the time as it was getting the transmission rebuilt under warranty by the dealer I'd just purchased it from (effectively making the car $7k cheaper :D:D) so I had to do it in a hired Land Cruiser :(:(. I was amazed at the capability of 4WD's when given guided instruction.

[LRD414]

I already joined the VIC LR Club, had completed proficiency training and booked an advanced course which had been delayed by brushfire near training ground. That is why I am willing to invest more to go further. LLAMS and off-road rims are on my shopping list. Of course, Gordon little booklet had been bonus on top what I learned.


Sounds like you're well and truly on the right track. Your mates should be listening to you instead of wherever they're getting their uninformed ideas now.

Scott

[DIS4]

Great advice Fizz.

Did you modified your D4? 18" steel rim? LLAMS? Do you know any work shop doing that?

Cheers,

Gary

[DIS4]

Does anyone knows if Cooper Zeon LTZ 275/45R20 can fit in my D4 with large disc brake? My local Tyre dealer mentioned that I could use it to replace my 255/50R20, but this information is not listed on my D4 plate.

[DIS4]

Certainly in WA, the Hankook ATM RF-10's are the best value with a reasonably strong construction. I have them on both the Sport and the D4, although they're just starting to drone a little on the Sport (could be my poor alignment though, which I've just rectified).

Cheers,

Gordon

Hi, Gordon. Can you please let me know if cooper Zeon LTZ 275/45/R20 can fit in my D4 with large disc brake? I am using Pirelli Scorpion AT 250/50/R20 now. Your online calculation is good with D3. At this time, I could not get pass the financial controller to order your rims, will be necessary if I intend to do more offload later on. When you plan to come to Melbourne for training since we have discovery intend to pick up more offroad skills.

Cheers,

Gary

[RobA]

I already joined the VIC LR Club, had completed proficiency training and booked an advanced course which had been delayed by brushfire near training ground. That is why I am willing to invest more to go further. LLAMS and off-road rims are on my shopping list. Of course, Gordon little booklet had been bonus on top what I learned.

Gordon is running a two day sand course at Beachport in SA in February. Take a look at his website for information. It is the kind of experience that is virtually impossible to get anywhere else

Rob

[gghaggis]

Hi, Gordon. Can you please let me know if cooper Zeon LTZ 275/45/R20 can fit in my D4 with large disc brake? I am using Pirelli Scorpion AT 250/50/R20 now. Your online calculation is good with D3. At this time, I could not get pass the financial controller to order your rims, will be necessary if I intend to do more offload later on. When you plan to come to Melbourne for training since we have discovery intend to pick up more offroad skills.

Cheers,

Gary

Yes, they'll fit and still be legal.

Cheers,

Gordon

[LandyAndy]

Gordon.
How much of a sidewall increase is there with that size compared to the standard D4 19" tyre???
Andrew

[gghaggis]

Gordon.
How much of a sidewall increase is there with that size compared to the standard D4 19" tyre???
Andrew

It's a reduction of around 15mm.

Cheers,

Gordon

[Stuart02]

I may as well throw my hat in and clarify whether the fact that 275/55/20 on an L320 will apparently only rub in reverse for the first few thousand kms, means that access height is out of the question and EAS failure could be an issue?

I have 275/45/20 at the moment and they're fine. 27mm increase in OD equates to a quite true speedo.