Where do motoring journo's get off?

[MrLandy]

Andrew MacLean in yesterday's The Age reckons, "the Range Rover Sport Hybrid, the company's first petrol electric model Available only in the higher spec SDV6 turbo diesel" :Rolling: Apparently it's also "certainly the most capable off-roader amongst it's sporty rivals" (despite not even being tested off-road!) and that "I can't help think [sic] this car has been created specifically for cities such as London and Los Angeles..." !!

In the same paper, an article billed on the cover of Drive as, [I]'Get me out of here. Escape from the middle of nowhere', Sam Charlwood writes that Jeep's new Cherokee SUV "gets unlost in the Australian outback'! But that "there was no need to call apon it's five mode, four-wheel-drive system", because after a whole 700kms (wow!) "the Jeep answered the call seamlessly...proving as adept in highway driving as it was bashing along loose gravel back roads". That the Jeep "took everything the driver threw at it, and never even needed to venture into four-wheel-drive." Seriously?! What an overblown load of rubbish! Escape from the Middle of nowhere? Please! The only escape was that they nearly, stupidly ran out of fuel! Charlwood even admits to asking, at Mungo National Park office no less!, "excuse me, where are we?" Duh!

Both articles, say nothing real about the 4WD ability of the vehicles, or why you would buy and use them as 4WD SUV's at all! ...Might as well just test them around Albert Park Lake, or just read the specs off the Internet and pretend to have tested them (oops too close to the bone?).

Pathetic.

[Bytemrk]

Sad isn't it ...

I was looking at a hybrid Sport while standing around MLR's yard earlier this week..... nice looking bit of kit... but my wallet shrivelled up and dropped off when I looked at the price :angel:

[MrLandy]

Sad isn't it ...

I was looking at a hybrid Sport while standing around MLR's yard earlier this week..... nice looking bit of kit... but my wallet shrivelled up and dropped off when I looked at the price :angel:

Yeah agreed, pricing is off the show, more than a Porsche!

..what has happened to Land Rover? From being the everyman's pragmatic, capable, affordable vehicle of simple, spare, design perfection, that became an icon : to the urban folly, seeking only the superficial 'look of nature', the fake nature bling fashion accoutrement, for fantastical elitist urbancentric escapeism.

All spin, no substance. Hybrid good for the environment? Pffffttttt... Even the motoring journo's have succumbed to the illusion. It's pure advertorial fluff. Who will ever believe a vehicle review again?

[TerryO]

This is just about across the board in journalism now I reckon. I deal with so called journo's who write for various 2-wheel magazines on a regular basis and have done for nearly twenty years.

Most, not all, wouldn't know which end of a motorbike has handlebars let alone have any real product or important industry knowledge. Scary really, they usually come into the job based on some form of passion but with few other skills.

There are exceptions but very few and I guess for what they nearly all get paid we shouldn't grumble to much. This I reckon is the same with 4 wheel journo's, apart from massive (look at me) ego's I reckon most I have met over the years are even worse then their 2-wheel cousins in lack of product knowledge.

[rmp]

There's a reason for this. Less and less money can be made from content leading to less money to pay for it leading to lower quality. Which means fewer eyeballs and less money....a vicious circle.

[VladTepes]

Where do they get off?

Most of them were never "on" in the first place......

[p38arover]

I wonder if I should post up a letter I wrote some years back to a 4WD magazine where I complained about one of their issues and how the contents did not match the cover nor were the photos inside of much value.

[MrLandy]

More rubbish from motoring journo...

Car Sales review comparo between Ford Everest & Toyota Prado:

"Proper 4WDs were seemingly a dying breed until the arrival this year of a bevy of new, ute-based models including Ford Everest, Toyota Fortuna and Mitsubishi Pajero Sport (nee Challenger). Of these, the new Everest with its upmarket positioning stands out as a real alternative to the Toyota LandCruiser Prado, the undisputed king of large off-road wagons in this country."

Yes proper 4WD's are certainly a dying breed, however none of these listed above are large off-road wagons. They are medium sized SUV's.

No mention of Land Rover Discovery either, which is clearly the leading competitor for Prado! But they do reference 'Land-Rover style off-road modes'... hmm

"Both have Land Rover-style electronically-controlled off-road modes for tackling different surfaces including 'sand?, ?rock?, 'mud? and 'snow?. However, unlike the Prado only rock mode is available in low range in the Everest. Both have hill-descent control for tricky descents."

...And to top it all off, the wrap up says:
"If it's on the bitumen, towing a caravan or carting the family around, the Everest is a good choice." Which means it's not an off-roader at all!

Ridiculous.

[simmo1]

Another quality bit of motoring journalism can be found in I think Caravan World (?) They rate the top 10 tow vehicles. The Land Rover brand s does well but they pick the supercharged petrol RRS and Discovery. No mention of the TDV6 or SDV6 where you get superior grunt and remarkable fuel economy. They also seem to only look at the rated towing capacities and simply forget the real world towing abilities and matters such as principles like trying to keep the towed weight less the the towing vehicle. They would be laughed at in Chermany with this. And I really doubt that a 90 series defender would be that good towing a caravan at 3500kg, really!!

Simmo

[p38arover]

More rubbish from motoring journo...
"Toyota LandCruiser Prado, the undisputed king of large off-road wagons in this country."


That's odd. I thought the Prado was a mid-sized 4WD and the 200 series Cruiser was Toymota's large off-roader

[BMKal]

I posted the following in another thread recently -

"Just out of coincidence, I pulled up at the local Ford dealer and had a look at the new Everest they have on display out the front yesterday. It was the mid-spec "Trend" model, with a drive-away price of just under $70K.

The Disco certainly has nothing to fear from this as a competitor - I was not impressed, especially by the interior which looked very "cheap" and "plastic" compared to the D4 (and mine is a base model).

While I was there, a bloke pulled up behind me in a Nissan Patrol ute and saw me looking at the Ford (the local Ford dealer is also the Nissan dealer). His first comment to me was - "you're not thinking of trading the Landie in on THAT, are you ?" I told him that I was only looking at it out of curiosity.

Parked next to the Everest on the lot was a Territory Ghia TdV6 diesel - a much better looking and better finished vehicle than the Everest any day of the week in my opinion."

They still have that same Everest on display at the local Ford dealer - it has not sold. To the best of my knowledge, they have not sold any of these in Kalgoorlie - I certainly haven't seen a single one around other than the one on display at the dealers - and Kalgoorlie is usually pretty quick on the uptake of new models if people like them (there's already quite a few of the new Rollux's and Fortuna wagons getting around https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/362.jpg ).

From what I've seen, I reckon that the new Everest will be about as popular as the Ford Exploder was - at least up around these parts.

[vbrab]

Was looking to (possibly) change my D3 for something easier to service in remote area and was checking the Ford, Mazda, Izuzu, Toyota 4WD double cab ute offerings.
Dismissed the idea when I found out that although they have 3+tonne towing capacity they ALL HAVE DRUM BRAKES ON REAR. (so 1960's)
Cannot imagine what driving through mud/water etc would do to drum brakes, but I don't want to find out the hard way.

[MrLandy]

Was looking to (possibly) change my D3 for something easier to service in remote area and was checking the Ford, Mazda, Izuzu, Toyota 4WD double cab ute offerings.
Dismissed the idea when I found out that although they have 3+tonne towing capacity they ALL HAVE DRUM BRAKES ON REAR. (so 1960's)
Cannot imagine what driving through mud/water etc would do to drum brakes, but I don't want to find out the hard way.

Not only that, they also have horse and cart rear springs, woeful road dynamics, all need suspension upgrades, are woeful to park and unless you're a tradie or farmer the load area is unusable without a canopy (extra $$).

Remote area servicing can be an issue, depending on where you are. It's Land Rovers biggest downfall IMO, it's something you do need to factor into running costs. If they are serious about new Defender they'll need to address poor service outside the cities.

Motoring journos never really cover these type of things, or much else in terms of day to day practicalities of owning one vehicle over another. Most of them pretty much regurgitate the gumf that vehicle manufacturers spin doctors publish.

[BMKal]

Drum brakes have been around for way longer than discs and, in most respects, work just as well (in some ways even better). There is no real problem with driving them through water and /or mud, provided that you understand what the potential issues are, and act accordingly. The only issue with water in drum brakes for example, is that you will experience a lack of braking immediately after immersion - but if you drive slowly with your foot pressed lightly on the brake pedal for a few seconds after getting them wet, they will dry out straight away and return to normal performance. Most modern drum brakes do a pretty good job of keeping mud out - but I have filled brake drums with mud more often than I'd care to remember. A simple hose-out after driving through mud has always worked for me.

Leaf springs - well yes, they are a bit harsher to ride on than coils, and definitely don't compare with modern air suspension. But they are designed as a load carrier and, in this respect, nothing beats them. If the ride is a bit harsh, simply throw a bit of weight in the back and the ride is not that bad. Some of the newer utes (eg VW Amarok) offer different rated rear suspension packs (for load carrying or for comfort). The "comfort" option on the VW gives you a softer spring pack and better ride, but at the expense of load carrying capacity. My young bloke's new Amarok has the heavier (standard) load carrying suspension option, and even with this and the back of the ute empty, the ride is no worse than many conventional sedans and wagons that I have owned / travelled in.

As for remote area servicing - this one is a complete furphy. Regardless of which brand of ute you are looking at (except possibly for some of the more recently introduced Chinese & Indian brands which you do not see a lot of anyway) - it is no more difficult to find servicing agents outside of the metropolitan areas than for any Toyota / Holden / Ford - and definitely MUCH more servicing options available than for a modern Land Rover. But even regarding the Land Rovers, the lack of servicing options is nowhere near the "problem" that some people claim. I live in Kalgoorlie where there is no Land Rover distributor / agent / dealership and have owned Land Rovers for at least the past 10 years - never had a problem getting my vehicles serviced or having any necessary repairs completed on them. Parts availability is often no worse than and in many cases better than Toyota. Kalgoorlie has one of the largest Toyota dealerships there is outside of metropolitan areas, and I've lost count of the number of times I've had to wait for even simple basic parts (like a fan belt for a Prado) to be overnighted up from Perth. I can get any parts I need for a Land Rover in at least the same timeframe, and then either fit it myself, or use a local mechanical service I trust to do the work for me.

But I certainly agree with the comments made on here about motoring journo's. Most of them wouldn't know their arse from their elbow.

[letherm]

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to wait for even simple basic parts (like a fan belt for a Prado) to be overnighted up from Perth. I can get any parts I need for a Land Rover in at least the same timeframe, and then either fit it myself, or use a local mechanical service I trust to do the work for me.

Usual business practice these days IMHO. Just in time delivery only. No-one (broad statement I know :p ) these days keeps anything in stock, even metro businesses don't have everything. My MY13 D4 was built without the trailer harness - no wonder the trailer lights wouldn't work :) and the dealer had to get one in. Not a common part I know but it is symptomatic of today's economy in that it costs money to hold stock in case someone wants it.

Martin

[MrLandy]

It's not the wait time on parts that's the issue, with servicing outside cities IME, but the difficulty finding a mechanic who firstly wants to work on a Land Rover and secondly is good at it. Obviously everyone's individual experience will vary on this, but it is certainly a very common experience not to find good service for Land Rovers outside cities, both from my own experience living in northern and remote areas for many years and from the feedback I've had from other Landy owners over many years.

....Even in cities this is why, rightly, so much is made of taking your Landy to an indy who specialises in servicing Landy's. It's just that outside of major centres specialist Landy Indy's are few and far between. It's not like you can take your Land Rover to one of the hundreds of Toyota service centres across the country if you can't find a good indy! It's a massive difference in customer care.

Having said this I'd never trade my Landy for a Toyota, but then I am someone who, while not a mechanic, is confident and capable of fixing many things. Many people simply aren't confident in this area and IMO shouldn't have to be. They should be better supported by the manufacturer of the product they buy when they use it in the places it is intended to be used. To me this all points to the city centric priorities of LRA and explains very simply why you see so few Land Rovers (other than those owned by travellers) living and working across the majority of this huge continent - one of the worlds continents where a 4WD vehicle is actually necessary.

Obviously if you can fix your vehicle yourself none of this matters, but that is beside the point.

PS: IMO Coil Springs are clearly better than drum brakes and leaf springs. Defenders have been carrying massive loads for eons now with coil springs on the rear. And I've lost count how many 70 series Toyotas and Hilux I've pulled out of bogs with my Defender because their leaf springs have grounded the vehicle and/or not allowed enough wheel travel. Disc Brakes are also clearly better than drums, there wouldn't be a performance vehicle on the market with drum brakes! and having to hose them out for them to work properly is just silly, if there is the option of disc brakes.

[PhilipA]

amongst it's sporty rivals" (despite not even being tested off-road!) and that "I can't help think [sic] this car has been created specifically for cities such as London and Los Angeles..." !!


I am afraid I have to agree with them on that one and of course rich deluded greenies who think that they are saving the earth.

I reckon by far the majority will be sold to London Finance minions who want to not pay the pollution surcharge.
regards Philip A

[jon3950]

To me this all points to the city centric priorities of LRA and explains very simply why you see so few Land Rovers (other than those owned by travellers) living and working across the majority of this huge continent - one of the worlds continents where a 4WD vehicle is actually necessary.

I agree with the thrust of your argument here but this statement is a bit of an over simplification.

It is easy to say they need a bigger service network, but the reality is they need to make money.

To become a manufacturer approved service centre requires a significant investment, both on the part of the manufacturer and of the service centre itself. For this to happen there needs to be a large enough market within that service centre's area to make a worthwhile return on that investment, for no-one will want to make that investment if they can't make a return on it.

The commercial reality is that for LR that market does not exist. Therefore they need to concentrate their resources on where they will get the best return - ie populated areas.

LR are a niche manufacturer and simply do not have the resources available to them that Toyota have. Even if LRA were able to increase their sales tenfold and make a huge dealer network viable, LR simply could not supply them with product.

So the best they can do is concentrate their resources where they will have the most effect and build market share slowly over time. As this builds the demand for service will grow and so more service centres will become viable.

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

Some great pragmatic thinking there Jon.

Chicken and egg though too.

Yes it's a shame they gave that market up in the 80's. The road to recovery is long indeed, but the opulence of the brand belies their struggle.

Are you saying JLR are one of the most hard up vehicle manufacturers in the world? not sure I'm convinced of that.

How many years in a row has Disco won best 4x4? And motoring journos are still sucked in by the 'unbreakable' spin. I suggest LR needs to shift its image too, from promoting itself as primarily a purveyor of luxury glorified shopping carts, in order to win the bushability market back that should already be the LR heartland.

[jon3950]

Very much chicken and egg, but you can only do so much with limited resources. I'm not saying JLR are hard up, they are quite profitable now, but they are still a very small player compared to the likes of Toyota.

It is a shame their market was squandered in the Leyland years, they are still recovering from it. What it has made them though is a very succesful low volume manufacturer. To be successful as a low volume manufacturer you have to concentrate on the high end vehicles with good margins. It was the Range Rover that got them through that disastrous period and it is now vehicles like Evoque and RRS which are helping them re-build.

Unfortunately to build the type of vehicle with the service network we want they really need to become a high volume manufacturer. The Defender was never going to be that vehicle in the 21st century - simply too expensive to make. Increasing volume will mean more production going offshore, which we all seem to dislike. Clearly they are heading in this direction with the factory in China and now looking to Eastern Europe. This is a good thing for the brand.

I understand all your concern about how their image appears to be changing but I don't think its as bad as you think. Sure they have been concentrating on the high end stuff but off-road ability has been front and centre in every new model. With the limited resources they have for product development they have had to concentrate on developing one model at a time and have a strategy in place for the order in which market segments are addressed to maximise the return.

The new Defender is next and is a crucial model for LR - it is their halo model and they know it. From what I have read and learnt about how they are developing their manufacturing processes I think the new Defender is being taken very seriously. Off-road ability will be a given, but I think it will be a game changer in other areas, particularly in environmental friendliness (this is a good thing) which will set LR up well for the future.

Cheers,
Jon

[MrLandy]

Very much chicken and egg, but you can only do so much with limited resources. I'm not saying JLR are hard up, they are quite profitable now, but they are still a very small player compared to the likes of Toyota.

It is a shame their market was squandered in the Leyland years, they are still recovering from it. What it has made them though is a very succesful low volume manufacturer. To be successful as a low volume manufacturer you have to concentrate on the high end vehicles with good margins. It was the Range Rover that got them through that disastrous period and it is now vehicles like Evoque and RRS which are helping them re-build.

Unfortunately to build the type of vehicle with the service network we want they really need to become a high volume manufacturer. The Defender was never going to be that vehicle in the 21st century - simply too expensive to make. Increasing volume will mean more production going offshore, which we all seem to dislike. Clearly they are heading in this direction with the factory in China and now looking to Eastern Europe. This is a good thing for the brand.

I understand all your concern about how their image appears to be changing but I don't think its as bad as you think. Sure they have been concentrating on the high end stuff but off-road ability has been front and centre in every new model. With the limited resources they have for product development they have had to concentrate on developing one model at a time and have a strategy in place for the order in which market segments are addressed to maximise the return.

The new Defender is next and is a crucial model for LR - it is their halo model and they know it. From what I have read and learnt about how they are developing their manufacturing processes I think the new Defender is being taken very seriously. Off-road ability will be a given, but I think it will be a game changer in other areas, particularly in environmental friendliness (this is a good thing) which will set LR up well for the future.

Cheers,
Jon

Good stuff Jon, I hope you're right. I really hope the new Defender isn't trying to be everything to all people. Two new work trucks are what's needed IMO. A slightly scaled up in size Defender with exactly the same proportions and a mid sized new model.

We need a motoring writer with some clout to investigate further and also to delineate the real world needs vs spin. Won't hold my breath.
Cheers

[jon3950]

I hope I'm right too. A couple of other observations I might add:

Range Rover was initially driven upmarket by the attempt to cater to the US market. However the push to concentrate solely on upmarket vehicles was instigated by Ford, who had a definate view of how Land Rover should sit in their Premier Automotive Group. They would have been very happy for Defender to just go away so they could focus on being a premium brand.

Tata's purchase has changed this. To a large degree Tata have given both Jaguar and Land Rover free reign to develop the vehicles they want to and I think this has saved both marques from ruin.

The other thing is you may be surprised how much enthusiasm there is within Land Rover for Defender, even in Australia, despite it being a poor seller.

If you are interested in reading about Land Rover's recent history and what has influenced them in developing the vehicles they have, I can recommend a couple of books:

Jewels In The Crown: How Tata of India Transformed Britain's Jaguar and Land Rover by Ray Hutton

The Rover Group: Company and Cars 1986-2000 by Mike Gould

Both are very interesting reading.

Cheers,
Jon