What are the minimum requirements for legal extra seats in the boot?

[Plutei]

Hi all

I am wondering about the legalities regarding extra seating in the rear of my defender (1992, 110, 5 door, currently 5 seats)

I am wondering whether I can have seatbelts installed (permanently) and then build my own secure but basic benches which I put in when required, then get the whole lot certified. This is because I only require the extra seats very occasionally but would like the ability to legally transport more people over short distances.

Or, since I'm only doing very short distances and passenger comfort is optional, do I even need to build seats or could it be certified with just the "wheel arch" as the seat.

Or, does the seat need to be legit to get the engineers certificate?

Or, do I have a complete misunderstanding of the process?

Also, I am well aware of the dangers of inwards facing seats (head knocking, organ damage, spinal damage, and all the rest of it), I am only using it occasionally to ferry people in remote areas, and is just so that I can legally do what I am already doing (sticking four people in the boot) :angel:

[Lotz-A-Landies]

1. It is illegal to carry more passengers in a vehicle than that specified on the compliance plate. (Unless the vehicle has engineering certification for additional seats.)
2. All seating positions must have approved seat belts with approved seat anchorages.
3. Any more than 8 passengers leaves you potentially liable for registration as a bus with the additional expense that entails and possibly 6 monthly roadworthy inspections.
4. Additional seating fitted today needs to be forward facing or rearward facing.

[Mick_Marsh]

4. Additional seating fitted today needs to be forward facing or rearward facing.
When did that come in?
Attached is a photo of a 2012 Landcruiser, registered and legal.

[gromit]

Each State may have different rules.

You will need an engineers report, I got the dealer to install inward facing seats in the rear of my Defender, it's now registered as a 9 seater.

I think the 'omnibus' rules kick in at 12 seats but again may vary State by State.

Check out the situation with an engineer, if inward facing seats are OK then put a wanted ad in Markets. They do occasionally come up for sale, make sure you get the laps belts with the seats.....

In Victoria you need to read VSI 19

Colin

[PAT303]

When did that come in?
Attached is a photo of a 2012 Landcruiser, registered and legal.

Can't see how that can be legal,the forward facing seats rule has been in for years,also there is a ruling about seats needing their own entry/exit,the mining industry converts troopys into buses with the side door for this very reason. Pat

[Lotz-A-Landies]

When did that come in?
Attached is a photo of a 2012 Landcruiser, registered and legal.Serves me right for believing Juddy!

VSB-5A (2003) https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/VSB5A_Commercial_Manufacture_and_installation_of_a dditional_seats.pdf makes the statement "
SIDE-FACING SEATS
Although side-facing seats may be fitted, front-facing and rear-facing seats are preferred because they provide a higher level of safety.Although as a trauma specialist, no one would ride in any of my vehicles in a side facing seat1

[Mick_Marsh]

Serves me right for believing Juddy!

VSB-5A (2003) https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/files/VSB5A_Commercial_Manufacture_and_installation_of_a dditional_seats.pdf makes the statement "Although as a trauma specialist, no one would ride in any of my vehicles in a side facing seat1
And because the ADRs are not retrospective, for a 1992, the previous version of this document applies.

[Mick_Marsh]

Can't see how that can be legal,the forward facing seats rule has been in for years,also there is a ruling about seats needing their own entry/exit,the mining industry converts troopys into buses with the side door for this very reason. Pat
Show me the rule.

There have been so many "A fellow who does roadworthys told me" and "I read it on a website" stories out there, I have become a healthy skeptic when it comes to rules and regulations. To be convinced, I need to see the root document. I do not completely accept hearsay.

Oh, by the way, I see many modern Landcruiser Troopys with side mounted seats out there on the road. Usually operated by a government funded organisation.

[frantic]

To the op,plutei save $500-1000 on an eng report if in Nsw.
You fit original lr rear seats as it was an option in ALL defenders to 2007 puma which went 7 fwd facing.
Go talk to land vehicle spares at silverdale. I did the same thing about 3-4 years ago to my 2002. It's now an omnibus ( anything over 8 seats)on the rego retro fitted with original defender rear seats plus belts out of another members defender. I paid them to fit the seats, and belts, which they did well with backing plates to strengthen above factory spec. They also got my rego adjusted and no need for engineer report.
This is treated the same as taking the rar seats out of a Prado98-2012 to make the boot bigger.
If your in another state? :D no idea as each is different, sorry.

P.s yes you can still order a series troopie landcruiser with 8 inward facing seats, total of 10. They have only been banned from hire to tourists on frazer Island , as backpackers would jam in 10 bodies and pack all their gear/ supplies on the roof giving it the stability of a drunken giraffe resulting in rolls and deaths.
http://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70-series/range

[Plutei]

Ah, thought I had my location in my info. I'm in NSW. Changed now.

I knew that the year model meant that mine would be fine regardless of current regulations, but was under the impression that it had become illegal in the mean time, good that that has been cleared up.

Cheers for the extra info Frantic, I'll give them a call, sounds like a nice easy option.

Since I won't usually have them in there then the next hurdle will be whether temporary removal is legal, this (http://www.outbacktravelaustralia.com.au/4wd-mods-general-mods/4wd-modification-legalities-updated-jan-2014) website suggests that should be fine in NSW provided it is refitted for inspection. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish and I'll get to that when I dig further.

[frantic]

No problem:D
The main hurdle is finding a set of seats, but if you advertise on here you might get lucky and a member has an old set in their garage like I did, I just paid the freight and he was happy to have the extra space.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

And because the ADRs are not retrospective, for a 1992, the previous version of this document applies.Third Edition ADRs 3/01 seats and seat anchorages (https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02676); 4/01 seatbelts (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2006L02678) and 5/02 seatbelt anchorages (https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02683), apply to a 1992 Defender (MC category vehicle)

[Plutei]

No problem:D
The main hurdle is finding a set of seats, but if you advertise on here you might get lucky and a member has an old set in their garage like I did, I just paid the freight and he was happy to have the extra space.

That's a good deal!

[Plutei]

Third Edition ADRs 3/01 seats and seat anchorages (https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02676); 4/01 seatbelts (http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2006L02678) and 5/02 seatbelt anchorages (https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02683), apply to a 1992 Defender (MC category vehicle)

Lotza

Interestingly, in your first link:
"3.2.0.1. Side-facing ?Seats? need not comply with the requirements of this Rule."

Which seems to apply to the whole document.

[Simon]

If you can get it done without engineering, arguing they were standard available on that model it may save you some grief.

I've had 2x2 side benches put in my 2013 110. All signed off BUT to have it rated for adults converts the 110 to a passenger vehicle so you have to install child seat restraint points servicing existing row 2, the only place for these were via a fabricated bar above the door (the engineer would not sign off restraints built into the seats themselves).

Alternatively you can stay as a commercial vehicle but be rated either for 2 adults or 4 children.

The seats and lap belts were from Exmoor Trim (I was in the UK with spare luggage capacity). Having the Euro stamp on them helped with sign off

NB I was told no cargo barrier allowed, no wheel carrier with externally operated mechanism as passengers must have ability to escape.....

[Mick_Marsh]

You will require engineering for the seat belt anchorages if not already there.

[dan007]

had to get our old commodore wagon done when last kid came along.
went to a seat place in Carins.
cost 1300 drive in drive out blue plate etc

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[frantic]

I have a crab bar that is about 5-6 inches behind and about 1 in below the back seat that has 3 bolt points. It's bolted into the frame of the ute just below the window, concealed by the plastic in most wagons.
Mick, I didn't require eng report, as used original belts, and better fitting points. It may have changed in the last 4 years or just different in vic?
Simon in relation to Pumas there was a place out near Camden lr dealer that fits approved bolts inside the seat frame back just like most factory wagons, comptune I think. I've seen a couple and if I had a puma they would get my business as they look like the factory bolt points in a Prado or my wife's multivan. The thing that stops most conversions rating the seats for adults is gvm, with a defender this is not an issue. From memory it's 68kg per seat so you still have over 400kg (1050- 612)capacity after install whereas other wagons could exceed their gvm with bums on seats alone.:D

[Mick_Marsh]

Mick, I didn't require eng report, as used original belts, and better fitting points. It may have changed in the last 4 years or just different in vic?
Re read my post. I didn't mention the seat belts would require engineering. Seat belts you purchase in the stores conform to the Australian Standard and are therefore ADR compliant. No engineering necessary. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to get new seat belts in Australia that do not conform to the Australian Standard.

Seat belt anchorages.
https://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/F2006L02683
This is an ADR that applies to all states and territories within Australia. You have supplied very little information on the ones you have installed.

[simmo]

Our forward facing rear seat was done at V-quip in Melbourne, Moordialloc I think it was, good service, full engineers certificate, seat belts. etc it folded up against the backseat if you wanted to put stuff in the back of car. Our car was registered/ insured as a 7 seater wagon. I took a day to fit they had to remove the fuel tank for the seat mounts and the seat belt fittings . I think there will be similar service in sydney.

It was good for the kids even when they were teenagers, (smallish ones) it gave good service for 8 years. cheers simmo

[PAT303]

Show me the rule.

There have been so many "A fellow who does roadworthys told me" and "I read it on a website" stories out there, I have become a healthy skeptic when it comes to rules and regulations. To be convinced, I need to see the root document. I do not completely accept hearsay.

Oh, by the way, I see many modern Landcruiser Troopys with side mounted seats out there on the road. Usually operated by a government funded organisation.

Thanks for that,I'm off to do some research,me thinks it could be a workplace rule only. Pat

[simmo]

If were me I wouldn't debate about the need for engineering of the seats or seatbelt mounts, or if inward facing seats were legal or not.

I'd want the passengers riding in my car to be as safe as practical. A 110 is no a particularly safe car by modern standards.

The LR dealer offered the the inward facing seats when we got our car, I told him "no thanks you can have em". Too dangerous in a collision in my view.

We went to Vquipe, they did a professional engineered, approved and comfortable forward facing folding seat. My children sat in those seats for years and travelled all over, in relative safety.

IMV to, have everything engineered & approved is the way to go, you can sleep at night.:)
cheers simmo

[Plutei]

If were me I wouldn't debate about the need for engineering of the seats or seatbelt mounts, or if inward facing seats were legal or not.

I'd want the passengers riding in my car to be as safe as practical. A 110 is no a particularly safe car by modern standards.

The LR dealer offered the the inward facing seats when we got our car, I told him "no thanks you can have em". Too dangerous in a collision in my view.

We went to Vquipe, they did a professional engineered, approved and comfortable forward facing folding seat. My children sat in those seats for years and travelled all over, in relative safety.

IMV to, have everything engineered & approved is the way to go, you can sleep at night.:)
cheers simmo


I agree if I were regularly using it as a people mover, but I'm only using the car to shuttle people around on deserted roads when kayaking or camping in the mountains, perhaps a couple of times a year, and I currently already chuck people in the boot on occasion without the belts. It's purely a legality matter for me, because if there's passengers in the back I'll be driving like a nun (more than I already do) regardless.
Honestly, the ideal solution for me would be to have it certified that the wheel arches are satisfactory and count as seats. Saves the hassle of either losing space to seats, putting the seats in every time I need them, or spending money on seats.

Really just looking for the cheapest way to legally put four people in the boot.

[frantic]

If we are going to talk safety, it's been done.;)
Defender in the uk is still 2nd safest behind a range rover from past reports, it may have been level,with the ovlov xc90! This is from real world accidents data, not theory malaka.:D
Now in the uk most 110's could option up 3 per side in the boot along with any 90 with more than 2 bodies had 4 inward facing seats until 2007 puma. Why is this relevant? It means more potential passengers and more potential injury, but less in reality.
In saying that, we use my wife's car for Sydney trips, multi van 7 seats full, but mine for others. By the same token to move around a large family a 110 with 9-11 seats is a cheap option.

P.s what plutei wants, WAS legal until about 7-10 years ago. A P-plater had 7 in a golf/ corrolla , 2 in the boot/ hatch area, lost control and slammed into a pole backwards killing the 2 in the back. We actually got away with a similar scenario, 8 in a old Mazda wagon as a p plater a long time ago. The cops pulled me over for a rbt, I was designated driver���� the officer said as long as all seats are full others can sit in load area of a wagon.

[Plutei]

P.s what plutei wants, WAS legal until about 7-10 years ago. A P-plater had 7 in a golf/ corrolla , 2 in the boot/ hatch area, lost control and slammed into a pole backwards killing the 2 in the back. We actually got away with a similar scenario, 8 in a old Mazda wagon as a p plater a long time ago. The cops pulled me over for a rbt, I was designated driver���� the officer said as long as all seats are full others can sit in load area of a wagon.

That's what I do, not what I want, subtle but significant difference :p

What I want is the cheapest legal way to stick 4 in the boot. Although you are right that legalising unbelted passengers would be the ideal, ignoring the enormous safety issues. I am surprised that it was legal that recently...

[frantic]

2004, it was a big case as two top private schools in sydney. Big money big lawyers and a bigger headline.

One wet night in April - National - www.smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/14/1084289895119.html)


In the aftermath, the Road Transport Act was amended in an effort to prevent a similar tragedy. It became an offence for any driver to carry passengers in a car boot, and an offence for drivers with L and P plates to carry more passengers than the available seatbelts.

[Plutei]

That's heavy.

It states that "an offence for drivers with L and P plates to carry more passengers than the available seatbelts"

Does this mean that with a full licence you can have more people than seat belts? That would surprise me...

[SG1 Bones]

That's heavy.



It states that "an offence for drivers with L and P plates to carry more passengers than the available seatbelts"



Does this mean that with a full licence you can have more people than seat belts? That would surprise me...


I think it would be referring to older cars built pre seat belts and still not fitted with them.

Nathan.