Poly Bushings in Control Arms

[Redback]

Well had my lower control arm bushes changed in the D4 last week, this time I had SuperPro Poly bushes put in, both top and lower arms.

The verdict;

Not impressed at all, no compliance or give at all, harsh, you can really feel it through the steering wheel, gives you the feeling that the shocks have the wrong valving, with too much rebound

You feel every single little bump in the road, like being in a Mini Minor and contrary to the blurb, they don't enhance ride and handling, infact quite the opposite.

I think I may have to lower my tyre pressures to compensate.

So those that may be contemplating Poly bushes when you need to change your bushes, DON'T.

My opinion only of coarse, if you don't mind a harsher ride that doesn't improve the handling or ride of the car, then these are for you, time will tell if they last longer, for me they would have to last double that of the standard bushes for me to get them again.

Baz.

[jonesy63]

Hey Baz - what colour are the bushes you had installed?

I seem to recall there are different colours for different hardness of the poly material... something like blue is harder than orange.

[Redback]

Hey Baz - what colour are the bushes you had installed?

I seem to recall there are different colours for different hardness of the poly material... something like blue is harder than orange.

They recommend the Blue bushes for the D3/D4/RRS, so I'm assuming Blue:angel: haven't looked though:cool:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/09/681.jpg

Baz.

[Tombie]

Hey Baz - what colour are the bushes you had installed?

I seem to recall there are different colours for different hardness of the poly material... something like blue is harder than orange.

Myth! And only applies to a specific manufacturer who use the colours for their own coding...

[LRD414]

Well had my lower control arm bushes changed in the D4 last week, this time I had SuperPro Poly bushes put in, both top and lower arms.

The verdict;

Not impressed at all, no compliance or give at all, harsh, you can really feel it through the steering wheel, gives you the feeling that the shocks have the wrong valving, with too much rebound ....


Baz, your comments reminded me of the discussion regarding the OEM hydrolastic bush versus poly in this thread (first page).
Particularly Tombie's point regarding comparative movement of the different bushes (less lateral movement in poly bush).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/219785-lower-control-arms.html

Cheers,
Scott

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/09/674.jpg

[jonesy63]

Myth! And only applies to a specific manufacturer who use the colours for their own coding...

So not a myth - if it actually exists! :p

[jonesy63]

I have poly bushes installed on my Alfa and one other thing about them... they squeak - unless you routinely apply the silicone lube on them. The ones I fitted were SuperPro brand and came with the lube - like a gel - to be applied during installation.

[crawal]

My cousin , runs a tyrepower store and I checked with him to fit poly bushes bushes ,no way too harsh too noisey alright in a race car not in a disco
Fitted standard ones :D

[Celtoid]

Well had my lower control arm bushes changed in the D4 last week, this time I had SuperPro Poly bushes put in, both top and lower arms.

The verdict;

Not impressed at all, no compliance or give at all, harsh, you can really feel it through the steering wheel, gives you the feeling that the shocks have the wrong valving, with too much rebound

You feel every single little bump in the road, like being in a Mini Minor and contrary to the blurb, they don't enhance ride and handling, infact quite the opposite.

I think I may have to lower my tyre pressures to compensate.

So those that may be contemplating Poly bushes when you need to change your bushes, DON'T.

My opinion only of coarse, if you don't mind a harsher ride that doesn't improve the handling or ride of the car, then these are for you, time will tell if they last longer, for me they would have to last double that of the standard bushes for me to get them again.

Baz.


So Baz, if their claim is better .... blah, blah, blah .... and they clearly aren't. Can you get them to use a different product at their expense?


Cheers.

[LandyAndy]

You feel every single little bump in the road, like being in a Mini Minor and contrary to the blurb, they don't enhance ride and handling, infact quite the opposite.

Perhaps they do Baz,in a land bruiser or pootrol!!!!
Andrew

[ADMIRAL]

So not a myth - if it actually exists! :p
There are different 'duro' ( hardness ) ratings for the urethane bushes as distinct from poly bushes. The urethane bushes are cheaper to produce in small batches than rubber ( and it is safe to assume the same applies to poly bushes ) This makes it cheaper to manufacturer a product in smaller runs, where rubber would be uneconomical to produce a copy. If the volume used is up, someone probably has a rubber copy. ( but the OE rubber bush is still probably a better bet )
So Poly & Urethane are cheaper to manufacture than rubber. Answer this question. Which automotive manufacturer uses Poly or Urethane bushes as std fitment ? If it is cheaper to make and has such great properties, why aren't they using it ? .......and remember auto manufacturers are chasing cent savings per vehicle, and this stuff is $'s cheaper !!

[Tombie]

So not a myth - if it actually exists! :p


Colour has no bearing on hardness - I can mould any colour and durometer you like.

[Tombie]

There are different 'duro' ( hardness ) ratings for the urethane bushes as distinct from poly bushes. The urethane bushes are cheaper to produce in small batches than rubber ( and it is safe to assume the same applies to poly bushes ) This makes it cheaper to manufacturer a product in smaller runs, where rubber would be uneconomical to produce a copy. If the volume used is up, someone probably has a rubber copy. ( but the OE rubber bush is still probably a better bet )
So Poly & Urethane are cheaper to manufacture than rubber. Answer this question. Which automotive manufacturer uses Poly or Urethane bushes as std fitment ? If it is cheaper to make and has such great properties, why aren't they using it ? .......and remember auto manufacturers are chasing cent savings per vehicle, and this stuff is $'s cheaper !!


Poly bushes are urethane.

The full name is Polyurethane :)

It is more costly to produce in volume and harder to assemble on a production line...

Your post is totally incorrect.

[Redback]

So Baz, if their claim is better .... blah, blah, blah .... and they clearly aren't. Can you get them to use a different product at their expense?


Cheers.

Some how I don't think so, I think trying to prove that would be quite hard.

I don't think the average person who doesn't drive the D3/D4 or any luxury European 4WD would understand how compliant these vehicles are compared to most other 4WDs, what I would call a harsh ride, someone else would call, a good firm ride.

One thing I will say, the feeling back through the steering is excellent and would be good if it was a race car, but I don't think it has improved the handling of the car.

Time will tell if these are any good, in most cases a firm ride will ease over time, but as I said, they will need to last double that of the rubber bushes for me to get them again, and I somehow doubt they will last that long.

It is what it is and I thought I'd try them, I have a spare set of arms now, so will set about changing the bushes on them over, so I can just refit the arms next time, it is actually cheaper to replace the bushes, than to buy new arms, even changing to Poly bushes was around the $200 mark cheaper, even cheaper if you go OEM rubber.

Baz.

[LRD414]

So did you buy a set of arms and get the poly bushes fitted and then fit those arms to the car? Or did you already have spare arms?

Scott

[Greatsouthernland]

FWIW I did the same on my RRS, I only intended to do the LCAs but there was confusion as I gave the whole car kit to the installer and they ended up doing the lot. Agreed, too harsh.

Next time, and I still think it's worth it, I would only do the LCAs and leave the uppers as they tend to cop less damage due to the energy distribution flow through the suspension, as I'm told. This will allow some 'cushion' effect to remain in the system. There is the theory that they'd then become the weak link in the system as the polybushes transfer the wear along the system, but I doubt it would rapidly weaken the standard uppers enough to notice.

[Tombie]

Extremely compliant Hydrobushes in a chassis / frame moving through a large range of motion in multiple planes...

Or less compliant Polyurethane bushes in same application...

Even LR decided a solid type (rubber vulcanised) bush was unsuited to the application - hence the more complex hydrobush...


As much of a supporter of Superpro bushes in the correct applications; this is definitely not one of them.

I have concerns for the stresses these impose into the frame when used for purpose..

[Redback]

So did you buy a set of arms and get the poly bushes fitted and then fit those arms to the car? Or did you already have spare arms?

Scott

I bought new arms the first time I did the control arms, and this time bought new top arms with the poly bushes fitted, so now have a complete set of top and bottom arms for next time.

Baz.

[Canaussie]

We'll know I have a set of LCA's with Superpro's in waiting to be installed. I might have to just get the hydrostatic bushes fitted instead....more money wasted [emoji29]

[Redback]

We'll know I have a set of LCA's with Superpro's in waiting to be installed. I might have to just get the hydrostatic bushes fitted instead....more money wasted [emoji29]

Don't waste your money, they might be a bit better if you have rubber bushes in the top arms, could be a good test to see if that helps with the harshness.

Baz.

[Canaussie]

So what do you reckon leave the bushes in Baz?? It's just that if I have the arms sitting in the garage I should just take the Superpro's out.

[Tombie]

I'd suggest looking at a D3/4/RRS under full offroad flex and see the movement it has.

Then ask yourself how can a solid bush perform like that?

It can't. Rubber, urethane or other...

So besides loading the mounting points it has to be reducing offroad flex / capability to a degree.

[Nomad9]

Hi Baz,
I did warn you..............I had them in for six months and then got rid of them, I had the red Polybush ones from the UK.

[Reads90]

Myth! And only applies to a specific manufacturer who use the colours for their own coding...

Polybush are different

Red are hard and blue are softer

[Redback]

So what do you reckon leave the bushes in Baz?? It's just that if I have the arms sitting in the garage I should just take the Superpro's out.

I would, no point in wasting good money and if your top arms have rubber bushes, they may help with the harshness.

Are the ones in the garage a spare set for next time? or are they going in because your currant ones are stuffed?

[Tombie]

Polybush are different

Red are hard and blue are softer

So like I posted "Only applies to a specific manufacturer who uses the colours for their own coding"

[Tombie]

I would, no point in wasting good money and if your top arms have rubber bushes, they may help with the harshness.

Are the ones in the garage a spare set for next time? or are they going in because your currant ones are stuffed?

Depends... Cost Benefit Analysis:- Is a smooth ride for the next 80,000km worth more or less than the price of hydrobushes :cool:

[Redback]

Depends... Cost Benefit Analysis:- Is a smooth ride for the next 80,000km worth more or less than the price of hydrobushes :cool:

It is if the cost of the Poly bushes + the cost of the rubber bushes + fitting is over $1000, which it would be if fitting is involved and he's not doing it himself.

Baz.

[Tombie]

It is if the cost of the Poly bushes + the cost of the rubber bushes + fitting is over $1000, which it would be if fitting is involved and he's not doing it himself.

Baz.

Believe me I'm not disagreeing with the cost...

I'm just suggesting cost vs willingness to put up with the ride / performance will be the deciding factor...

[Tombie]

As an indication... Should people want to change to OEM

Complete arm assemblies are $200.00 a side with the factory bushes and ball joint...

[Redback]

As an indication... Should people want to change to OEM

Complete arm assemblies are $200.00 a side with the factory bushes and ball joint...

For the bushes and ball joint only I assume?

[Canaussie]

Going in because current ones are stuffed, been waiting awhile to get them installed, not sure which independent to use. There's one in Mackay and one in Rocky just trying to decide

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
Irrespective of colour the ride on solid bushes isn't as good as the ride on original hydra bushes. My opinion and experience.........to date

[Stuart02]

I may as well ask here if anyone knows how the RRS suspension is tuned firmer than the D4? Is it the springs or shockers or both?

[Redback]

I may as well ask here if anyone knows how the RRS suspension is tuned firmer than the D4? Is it the springs or shockers or both?

I would imagine the rebound in the shock/strut would be a tad firmer, I don't think the airbags would have more pressure and I would imagine the ECU/BSU is tuned for a more sporty ride also.

Baz.

[Tombie]

For the bushes and ball joint only I assume?


Entire Arms fitted with bushes and joints.

[Redback]

Entire Arms fitted with bushes and joints.

Where do you get them at that price?

[Tombie]

Where do you get them at that price?

RimmerBros... (OEM version)

[Redback]

RimmerBros... (OEM version)

Just looked at their catologue, if they don't have the lower arm, it's available as a kit of top and bottom arms, or aftermarket.

$214 now with the dollar down the toilet.

[Tombie]

Here's something that popped up in my feed today that may interest everyone...

99459

[Plane Fixer]

Certainly will be interested as I have just received some new arms which I will replace in the next week or so.
The old arms I will replace the bushes and these look like a viable option as I do not wish to sacrifice the handling or comfort.

[Redback]

Here's something that popped up in my feed today that may interest everyone...

99459

Something for next time, you're always on the ball Mike:D

Baz.

[ADMIRAL]

Poly bushes are urethane.

The full name is Polyurethane :)

It is more costly to produce in volume and harder to assemble on a production line...

Your post is totally incorrect.

I beg to differ. The reason urethane bushes are available for numerous low volume replacements, is cost. You simply won't see the same bushes in rubber unless you buy OE. As the volume rises ( due to vehicle numbers sold or the replacement frequency ) the odds the of a bush becoming available in rubber, increases.

[Tombie]

I beg to differ. The reason urethane bushes are available for numerous low volume replacements, is cost. You simply won't see the same bushes in rubber unless you buy OE. As the volume rises ( due to vehicle numbers sold or the replacement frequency ) the odds the of a bush becoming available in rubber, increases.


In a past life I manufactured tooling and rubber moulding and extrusion, as well as PU components.

Tooling for both is relatively cheap and the material cost for
NBR, EPDM etc is very similar to PU.

Injection Moulded PU has the uneconomic challenge of requiring far more manual labour to install correctly.

Requiring greasing and hand assembly into components, as opposed to a steel cased, bonded rubber bush which is a simple "place and press" fitment on a production line.

In most applications a well designed and correctly specified durometer PU bush will be far superior for flexibility (don't bind), longevity and oil resistance.

Like many things in the market.. PU can be roughly Moulded "at home" and lead to poor quality products earning the material a bad reputation.

There are however, horses for courses - and a Hydrobush really is another step again in flexibility and range of movement.

I'm keen to hear how the LRA rubber version goes.

[guthrie]

Hi There,
Irrespective of colour the ride on solid bushes isn't as good as the ride on original hydra bushes. My opinion and experience.........to date


I have just had some Whiteline synthetic elastomer bushes put in my D4.
I had these Whiteline w53479 Control arm - lower inner front bushing (http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=w53479) and these Whiteline W53480 Control arm - lower inner rear bushing (http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_detail4.php?part_number=W53480) installed by Pedders

Not sure if they are a little softer than the Superpro's.. but the ride is pretty close to OEM.

[Canaussie]

Well I finally got them installed a few weeks ago, the ride is definitely different to the normal bushes, but I wouldn't say abnormally rough. I am glad the clunk is gone in the front end. Going to Fraser in a week so I'll see what they're like in extended off road height. New Zeons also installed!

[Disco-tastic]

Hey CA,

How did the bushes go on Fraser?

I have knocking rear bushes (in the front LCA) at 160k km. at least one side appears to have been previously replaced, i dont know when.

I was thinking of buying whole new arms (D4 version) and replace them myself. Then i had a chat to the local LR indie and he is recommending installing SuperPro bushes.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/331853448078

He said they are always changing the rear bushes - fronts very rarely - without any reported issues.

So now im thinking about just getting the rear bushes replaced with superpro bushes.

Reading on here few people have had positive experiences with polybushes all round, top and bottom arms, but what about superpro bushes? And what about just the lower rear bush only?

I dont want to be replacing bushes again in 80k km. But i equally want to have a good ride and keep my articulation.

Does anyone have a tip for removing the old ones? I have heard they can be done with the ball joint and driveshaft still attached with a portable press?

Alternatively i can get my mechanic to do them at $160 a side ($500 total). New arms are $735 delivered from the UK from advanced factors, or about $900 from roverparts in victoria.

What to do...

Cheers

Dan

[Tombie]

Don't! Just don't!
Arms are $200 a side at the moment + freight X-UK...

Or buy the bushes and a bush tool...

[Disco-tastic]

Haha thanks tombie

Ive talked about this in a few threads now (this ones a bit older). I think youve found every one and said the same thing :p

I priced up arms (with new bolts and all) a few weeks ago from Advanced Factors and it was $750 delivered. The kit was about $600.

As the bushes that are gone are about $80 each im thinking i might just change them. How big a press would i need?

Cheers

Dan

[Catmatt]

FWIW - had them fitted to my D4 last year while still living in Canberra. Apart from a 'firmer' front end I didn't really notice any real-world difference in handling, body roll, squeaking.............

Now I live in FNQ and travel dirt roads and corrugations on a daily basis - I'm sure glad I got the Poly bush's installed as the OEM inserts just wouldn't last. I've spoken to a number of D3/4 owners up here and most say the same.

Cheers!

[Tombie]

If you can make a tool up to fit the profile of the bush you'll make life easy..

Laser Tools makes an On vehicle tool for that bush about $300 for the tool, plus $85 worth of bushes (does both sides)...

Since you'll do them every few years the tool is worth it...

I'm waiting on a Pickvant Jig/Tool - a bit more pricey at $1800 complete but it can do the entire vehicle...

Won't be long and my fronts will need changing.. And I have a trip I'm planning next year so will change them before then.

[Disco-tastic]

I'm leaning towards that, but want to know what size press ill need. If i can get away with 2T I'll build a little portable one so i can do them on the car.

Otherwise ill look at a 20T and then i can do bearings etc too.

Cheers

Dan

[eddy]

When I was recently at Advanced Factors,they were using a 20T press to push the Lemforder bushes into the lower control arms.

[Tombie]

If you get this: you won't need a press..
http://lasertools.co.uk/product/6180

You won't even need to take the wheel off or remove the arm from the vehicle...