TC plus centre diff lock - when?

[DiscoMick]

Hey guys, got a question because I'm not experienced with the Defender's Traction Control.
My question is, when do you gain much benefit from locking the centre diff when the TC is so effective?
Gotta say I was so impressed with the effectiveness of my Defender's TC on a recent outing that I didn't bother locking the centre diff. It just didn't seem necessary.
So, with the TC doing it's thing so well, when would it be an advantage to lock the centre diff?
Does locking the centre diff increase the chances of breaking an axle?

[Aaron IIA]

The traction control works by applying the brakes to the wheel that has lost traction. This consumes power and heats the brakes. Try driving up a sand dune with your foot on the brakes.
You will benefit from locking the centre differential whenever the traction control activates while off road.
Activating the centre differential may decrease the chance of breaking an axle.

Aaron

[quaddrive]

difflock should be engaged when you take the defender somewhere you would not take the family sedan.
If you were to see the size of the centre diff and one that has been over heated and spat the shims and then cross shaft you'd lock it whenever offroad.

Cheers

[n plus one]

difflock should be engaged when you take the defender somewhere you would not take the family sedan.
If you were to see the size of the centre diff and one that has been over heated and spat the shims and then cross shaft you'd lock it whenever offroad.

Cheers

This times a thousand - if you get decent wheels spin without the centre diff lock you're basically half way to a toasted transfer case in a matter of seconds, simple as that.

User error (failing to lock) is the quickest way to kill an LT230 (which is the TC in your Defender).

[Tombie]

difflock should be engaged when you take the defender somewhere you would not take the family sedan.
If you were to see the size of the centre diff and one that has been over heated and spat the shims and then cross shaft you'd lock it whenever offroad.

Cheers


^^^^This....

Once you step off the formed roads (not tracks) lock it...

Even on fast dirt its worth locking, helps stabilise them...


Working the Centre diff without it being locked is a recipe for short life-span of the unit...

[AndyG]

Have a look for the Ashcroft video about exploding transfer cases. Little cogs at higfh speed

[ozscott]

Cdl is best everywhere except bitumen when it should NOT be used. Otherwise lock it up. Its much better to have both CDL and ETC anyway. High speed dirt the vehicle feels more stable and can be balanced on the throttle nicely.

Cheers

[dawsey]

difflock should be engaged when you take the defender somewhere you would not take the family sedan.
If you were to see the size of the centre diff and one that has been over heated and spat the shims and then cross shaft you'd lock it whenever offroad.

Cheers

I agree I put it on whenever I leave the bitumen..Just remember to disengage it ..

[cuppabillytea]

I agree as well. The vehicle is more stable on dirt with centre diff locked.

[debruiser]

I agree I put it on whenever I leave the bitumen..Just remember to disengage it ..

How would you forget??? you can feel it when your turning. Even on hard dirt you can feel it's engaged.

[DiscoMick]

Thanks for the helpful advice. It will be locked.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[n plus one]

How would you forget??? you can feel it when your turning. Even on hard dirt you can feel it's engaged.

You can forget it if you come off a dirt track, wheel into a dirt servo, fill up, roll out onto the bitumen and then burn down 1000ks of straight road before coming across any meaningful corners. Trust me...

[debruiser]

You can forget it if you come off a dirt track, wheel into a dirt servo, fill up, roll out onto the bitumen and then burn down 1000ks of straight road before coming across any meaningful corners. Trust me...

hmm ok yea i'll give you that one. there is no straight road around here so haven't experienced that one.

[DiscoMick]

Lighted symbol on dash?

[n plus one]

Lighted symbol on dash?

Broken switch on TC - they're a bitch to change too, took me 4 years to do mine...:)

[DiscoMick]

Broken switch on TC - they're a bitch to change too, took me 4 years to do mine...:)
Isn't there a warning symbol for the centre diff lock?

[debruiser]

Yes there is. BUT is it just my truck or does your light go out sometimes - particularly over rough ground??? is it actually coming out of lock or just the light going out?

[n plus one]

Yes there is. BUT is it just my truck or does your light go out sometimes - particularly over rough ground??? is it actually coming out of lock or just the light going out?

Switch probably needs adjusting or replacing, enjoy...

[n plus one]

Isn't there a warning symbol for the centre diff lock?

Yep, it's the one on the dash, operated by the switch....:D

[Surrufus]

I couldn't find the video on the Ashcroft Transmission website about the exploding transfercase.

What's the best option for toughening up the LT320 in a newer Puma?

[roverrescue]

enjoy similar ramblings in this current thread and you can see the video from Dave Ashcroft

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/224889-transfer-case-defender-110-fails-twice.html

With regards to toughening up the LT230
I would vote sleeving the lay shaft and putting in an ATB to replace the centre diff.
Some would also argue to install the larger sump to increase oil capacity.

S

[quaddrive]

Used properly the LT230 is very tough and you will have many years of service without issue- oil leaks aside.

If you tow a lot in high heat conditions maybe the extended sump would be worthwhile as they do get hot.

Apart from that lock it in when leaving the black top and you will be fine. They are one of the few bits of the drivetrain that are good- assuming it was set up correctly at the factory for backlash and shimming.

If you want to upgrade you can go to the upgraded cross shaft and ATB centre diff although I doubt that you would have any need for those in a new Puma as it will go a lot further in standard trim than most drivers can take or are capable of driving.

Just my 2c

Cheers

[85 county]

I couldn't find the video on the Ashcroft Transmission website about the exploding transfercase.

What's the best option for toughening up the LT320 in a newer Puma?

why would you?? just use it as it should be used.

i mean if LR was to build a vehicle that was completely idiot proof, you would be sailing in the titanic

[85 county]

You can forget it if you come off a dirt track, wheel into a dirt servo, fill up, roll out onto the bitumen and then burn down 1000ks of straight road before coming across any meaningful corners. Trust me...

agree

a few years ago, setting up camp around the border track, my then 4 yearold coped a bit of wood on the head, Blood everywhere 4 stiches bla bla.

any way a fast drive to pinaroo. did not notice the diflock was in until leaving, reversing turn.

must have had a fair bit of wind up, 20 psi and i run big rubber. but no harm done, i have had it out since, guess that's the advantage of brass over steel,

[ozscott]

Is the transfer case in Puma different to Td5/D2?? If not it's the strongest part of the vehicle. They are the case of choice in comp truck rovers. My brother runs twin GQ transfer cases in his County but its a 400hp plus Chev arrangement.

Cheers

[85 county]

Is the transfer case in Puma different to Td5/D2?? If not it's the strongest part of the vehicle. They are the case of choice in comp truck rovers. My brother runs twin GQ transfer cases in his County but its a 400hp plus Chev arrangement.

Cheers

same

the com guys like them because they are strong. and they can flick back to awd at a tight turn, so awd from 4wd.

jap stuff is 4wd or 2 wheel drive only

[DiscoMick]

I'm very impressed with my standard Puma so far, so don't see any need to upgrade it.

[AndyG]

I'm very impressed with my standard Puma so far, so don't see any need to upgrade it.

ARB bulbar, Ironman winch, Safari snorkel, Steinbauer chip, Lightforce spots, Long Ranger tank, Off Road Systems drawer, Traxide 160 controller, Tekonsha brakes, Mulgo seat runners, Uniden UHF, Maginon reversing camera.
:D

[DiscoMick]

True, but I was referring to the drivetrain. Plus some of that was on it when I bought it. Don't tell the wife either...

[AndyG]

I am looking forward to the day when i can go nuts with Ashcroft gear, but no particular reason, apart from i can. Oh and a Allisport I/C 170 hp ;)

But need ot be good during warrenty.

[Longtimer]

Mine is in warranty, and I have the inter-cooler. They can't argue that one. Not in this country. They should be fitted as standard, before shipping to hot climates.
170HP remap. :D How will they detect that one?

Which reminds me..... I want to swap back to the original ECU shortly, as I need to to take it in for some warranty work..... Rear main is weeping. :( It started before I did the remap. It didn't even make 30K.... :(

My thoughts were;
Stuff it!!!! Why wait 2.5 to 3 years for the warranty to run out, when I could be enjoying it now???? Lets face it, you might have 50% more power, but you aren't using it very often as 90% of your driving is spent at less than the factory max power.

I suppose..... If you kept that handbrake on fairly hard you could use all 170HP continuously for a while...... :D:D


Cheers,

Phill.

[AndyG]

Interesting,
My rear main seal was leaking after 12,000 km,
Be interested if they comment on the I/C at the service, let us know please.
Even the 150 hp from BAS is so nice ;)

[cuppabillytea]

Mine is in warranty, and I have the inter-cooler. They can't argue that one. Not in this country. They should be fitted as standard, before shipping to hot climates.
170HP remap. :D How will they detect that one?

Which reminds me..... I want to swap back to the original ECU shortly, as I need to to take it in for some warranty work..... Rear main is weeping. :( It started before I did the remap. It didn't even make 30K.... :(

My thoughts were;
Stuff it!!!! Why wait 2.5 to 3 years for the warranty to run out, when I could be enjoying it now???? Lets face it, you might have 50% more power, but you aren't using it very often as 90% of your driving is spent at less than the factory max power.

I suppose..... If you kept that handbrake on fairly hard you could use all 170HP continuously for a while...... :D:D


Cheers,

Phill.
No need to put your old ECU back in. Just flash in original map.

[cuppabillytea]

why would you?? just use it as it should be used.

i mean if LR was to build a vehicle that was completely idiot proof, you would be sailing in the titanic
Was that a quote from Captain Edward Smith?
Cheers, Billy.

[Beery]

As Billy said, no need to change the ECU. Just return your new one to standard tune.

My rear main.seal was done a few weeks ago at 6000km. They said it was damaged when installed at the factory.
Its been in a few times with the intercooler in and they havent mentioned it. If anything they should give you an extended warranty to owners who put an allisport in.

[Tombie]

Mine is in warranty, and I have the inter-cooler. They can't argue that one. Not in this country. They should be fitted as standard, before shipping to hot climates.

170HP remap. :D How will they detect that one?



Which reminds me..... I want to swap back to the original ECU shortly, as I need to to take it in for some warranty work..... Rear main is weeping. :( It started before I did the remap. It didn't even make 30K.... :(



My thoughts were;

Stuff it!!!! Why wait 2.5 to 3 years for the warranty to run out, when I could be enjoying it now???? Lets face it, you might have 50% more power, but you aren't using it very often as 90% of your driving is spent at less than the factory max power.



I suppose..... If you kept that handbrake on fairly hard you could use all 170HP continuously for a while...... :D:D





Cheers,



Phill.


Umm? The intercoolers fitted as standard is more than enough for Aussie climates. 🙂

Just not as good once modified - and they have no need to meet a spec they aren't selling.

[Turtle130]

Interesting,
My rear main seal was leaking after 12,000 km,
Be interested if they comment on the I/C at the service, let us know please.
Even the 150 hp from BAS is so nice ;)

+1 for the rear main, 12000 as well

Sent from my Nexus 7 using AULRO mobile app

[Beery]

Umm? The intercoolers fitted as standard is more than enough for Aussie climates. 🙂

Just not as good once modified - and they have no need to meet a spec they aren't selling.

You ever seen the temperature of the air post standard intercooler!? One word, HOT!
Although, that may have something to do with me turbo pressure ;-)

[85 county]

You ever seen the temperature of the air post standard intercooler!? One word, HOT!
Although, that may have something to do with me turbo pressure ;-)

HA HA it has every thing to do with pressure. pressure far outweighs the affects of ambient

P
T = k


then you gave to add in the mechanical friction, IE the shear of air by the impeller

[Beery]

HA HA it has every thing to do with pressure. pressure far outweighs the affects of ambient

P
T = k


then you gave to add in the mechanical friction, IE the shear of air by the impeller

Yep, and most of the time the Allisport manages to get it right back down to ambient!

[AndyG]

Stop it , im reaching for the credit card :p

[DiscoMick]

Does sound like a good thing. Isn't it required with the 170 BAS remap, but not with the 150, or have I got that wrong?

[85 county]

Yep, and most of the time the Allisport manages to get it right back down to ambient!


COOL i just love blind statements like that.

gabs his calculator. fudge factor for soak.

yeppa you will get close, 2 deg above ambient if you are travelling at about 537klms.

[AndyG]

Does sound like a good thing. Isn't it required with the 170 BAS remap, but not with the 150, or have I got that wrong?

The I/C is strongly recommended for the 170 tune, and is probably needed to get max power. But is a good thing for any state of tune

[tact]

COOL i just love blind statements like that.

gabs his calculator. fudge factor for soak.

yeppa you will get close, 2 deg above ambient if you are travelling at about 537klms.

Buzzzzzt. Your calculator or theory needs tweaking

With 30C ambient, Measured temps, not blind statement:
- in the range 35-55C after stock IC (on stock tune, driving style ranging from gentle to "like i stole it")

- in the range 45-95C after the stock intercooler (on BAS170 Autobiography tune, driving style between gentle and "sub-minute bursts at full noise").

It was amazing how quick the air temp climbed with just short full throttle bursts with stock IC and BAS tune fitted).

(Yes I ran the 170hp tune with stock IC, for brief runs, before the new larger IC shipped).

Consistently 32-35C with the larger allisport IC as sold by BAS with the 170hp tune and any style of driving from gentle to madness.

(If I sit on 160km/h for an extended period on a highway run the post-IC air temp gets up to 40-45C but I consider that kind of driving an exception case. It also drops temp very fast when you back off the loud pedal. )

[AndyG]

Neil,
Do you see a need for a EGR gauge, or does the I/C keep it under control. I seemed recall :confused: that the BAS detuned if EGR gets too high.
Apologies if This Q confirms my mechanical ineptitude

[85 county]

Buzzzzzt. Your calculator or theory needs tweaking

With 30C ambient, Measured temps, not blind statement:
- in the range 35-55C after stock IC (on stock tune, driving style ranging from gentle to "like i stole it")

- in the range 45-95C after the stock intercooler (on BAS170 Autobiography tune, driving style between gentle and "sub-minute bursts at full noise").

It was amazing how quick the air temp climbed with just short full throttle bursts with stock IC and BAS tune fitted).

(Yes I ran the 170hp tune with stock IC, for brief runs, before the new larger IC shipped).

Consistently 32-35C with the larger allisport IC as sold by BAS with the 170hp tune and any style of driving from gentle to madness.

(If I sit on 160km/h for an extended period on a highway run the post-IC air temp gets up to 40-45C but I consider that kind of driving an exception case. It also drops temp very fast when you back off the loud pedal. )

so still above ambient then. look the hotter things are the easier it is to cool down initially. its much harder to say get the last 10 deg down. same reasons why a cup of tea with no milk will cool down faster than a cup of tea with milk

[85 county]

Neil,
Do you see a need for a EGR gauge, or does the I/C keep it under control. I seemed recall :confused: that the BAS detuned if EGR gets too high.
Apologies if This Q confirms my mechanical ineptitude

i think you mean EGT sensor

in the 2.4 the EGT sensor is in the EGR valve body. this is unlike tuners who tend to stick in in the manifold itself.

as a result with most or many tuning chips that firstly shut down the egr valve also disable the egt sensor.
the became apparent in the early-days of the 2.4 when we were making up blanking plates just like we did with the TD5, as a result we got a tonne of error messages. as result i suspect that as i said before the aftermaket chips flashes etc shut down not only the egr but the egt as well.

but as i said that was early days of the 2.4, it may have changed with the 2.2

[Beery]

so still above ambient then. look the hotter things are the easier it is to cool down initially. its much harder to say get the last 10 deg down. same reasons why a cup of tea with no milk will cool down faster than a cup of tea with milk

Im regularly seeing the exact same temp on both sensors.

[85 county]

Im regularly seeing the exact same temp on both sensors.


then your sensors are wrong, or you are lieing. you can say what you want but you can not change the laws of physics.

[Beery]

then your sensors are wrong, or you are lieing. you can say what you want but you can not change the laws of physics.

Nope, not lying. At anything under 200kpa (absolute) I'll often see the same temps on both sensors.
Full boost (255kpa+) labouring, aircon on, I can get it up to 12 degrees above the sensor 1 reading at best.

[Beery]

Sensor 1 is in the pipe coming from the airfilter. The air passing through that point is probably a bit above ambient already due to the heat of the engine bay.

But for all intents and purposes, 100% theoretical accuracy isn't important here. For practical application, the numbers are close enough.

[tact]

Neil,
Do you see a need for a EGR gauge, or does the I/C keep it under control. I seemed recall :confused: that the BAS detuned if EGR gets too high.
Apologies if This Q confirms my mechanical ineptitude

An EGT (exhaust gas temp) gauge can be very helpful. Even with intake air temps kept under control via an efficient intercooler - exhaust gas temps can still get away. (E.g. Long hard climb at full throttle in too high a gear)

With a BAS tune (and presumably others) you can request that the ECU be programmed to always ask for 0% EGR valve opening (exhaust gas recirculation valve). Effectively blanking the EGR valve using the electronics instead of a physical blanking. Totally avoiding the alarms etc that arise if you try to physically blank EGR valve in a TDCi.

A clever aspect of the way a BAS tune handles the closing of the EGR valve is in this:
- apparently the standard tune will open up the EGR valve if it thinks exhaust gas temps (EGT) are high enough to warrant protective action (opening the EGR valve being a way to reduce engine power)
- the BAS tune, while normally asking for the EGR Valve closed all the time, still respects the ECU logic to open EGR in those exceptional circumstances where it is deemed power output needs to be reduced temporarily.

Having an EGT gauge may be helpful to determine why you perhaps experienced a reduced engine power event.

All that said - I don't have, and don't intend to fit, an EGT gauge. Am aware of what might result high exhaust temps, would be avoiding that kind of situation, and wouldn't be wondering what happened if I experienced reduced engine output in such circumstances.

An EGT gauge would be much more helpful in older vehicles with none of the modern ECU electrickery, where manual action will always be needed to detect and control overly high exhaust gas temps.

[jackdef90]

I reckon it's pretty risky to run chips and remaps without an pyrometer, or at least a ultraguage or similar, there's a reason it's got more power!
A bigger IC won't do bugger all for exhaust temps as egt can run up to as high as 750 deg and a bigger IC drops the intake temp a couple of degrees, so it might drop your egt that couple of degrees so what it's nothing.
IC gives denser air so more fuel can be burnt that's all it does.

[Beery]

I reckon it's pretty risky to run chips and remaps without an pyrometer, or at least a ultraguage or similar, there's a reason it's got more power!
A bigger IC won't do bugger all for exhaust temps as egt can run up to as high as 750 deg and a bigger IC drops the intake temp a couple of degrees, so it might drop your egt that couple of degrees so what it's nothing.
IC gives denser air so more fuel can be burnt that's all it does.

More like 40-50 degrees in my experience Jack. Not an insignificant amount

[rick130]

I'm the usual lone dissenting voice, but i hate the CDL engaged on dirt, prefer an open centre diff (and much prefer an ATB )

Too much understeer for this little black duck with the CDL locked.

[rangieman]

I'm the usual lone dissenting voice, but i hate the CDL engaged on dirt, prefer an open centre diff (and much prefer an ATB )

Too much understeer for this little black duck with the CDL locked.

Black sheep of the family i think the word is mate:p;)

[Col 110]

I'm the usual lone dissenting voice, but i hate the CDL engaged on dirt, prefer an open centre diff (and much prefer an ATB )

Too much understeer for this little black duck with the CDL locked.

So - what does one do when you have road works i.e. road works where you have dry hard packed dirt roads before they seal it up.

When I pick up the 110 this week I will have a stretch of 2k of dirt road to go over - do I need to engage CDL?

[rangieman]

So - what does one do when you have road works i.e. road works where you have dry hard packed dirt roads before they seal it up.

When I pick up the 110 this week I will have a stretch of 2k of dirt road to go over - do I need to engage CDL?

You dont have to it`s your choice:cool:

[n plus one]

Jeez, what a schmoozel!

Lock the TC whenever it's likely you will get significant variation in at least one of your wheel's rotational speed (ie lifting a wheel, some wheels on slippery mud while others are on rock/the road) other than that, leave the TC alone UNLESS you are one of those people who prefer the handling on gravel roads with the TC locked (some do, some don't) others don't. This last point is a handling issue NOT a wear issue.

[Col 110]

You dont have to it`s your choice:cool:

I suppose I am getting a bit confused about the risks of engaging or not engaging CDL when on hard dirt.

Assuming you are travelling at (say) 40 - 60Kph I would not expect wheel spin on that type of surface - so do I need to worry about CDL. Or is my assumption wrong and thus you need the CDL locked as it does not handle the slip you might get on hard packed dirt roads.

[Col 110]

Jeez, what a schmoozel!

Lock the TC whenever it's likely you will get significant variation in at least one of your wheel's rotational speed (ie lifting a wheel, some wheels on slippery mud while others are on rock/the road) other than that, leave the TC alone UNLESS you are one of those people who prefer the handling on gravel roads with the TC locked (some do, some don't) others don't. This last point is a handling issue NOT a wear issue.

Got it - Thanks

[rangieman]

I suppose I am getting a bit confused about the risks of engaging or not engaging CDL when on hard dirt.

Assuming you are travelling at (say) 40 - 60Kph I would not expect wheel spin on that type of surface - so do I need to worry about CDL. Or is my assumption wrong and thus you need the CDL locked as it does not handle the slip you might get on hard packed dirt roads.

AT the end of the day it is personal choice the majority say ya and i do at any given speed for the handling factor on dirt my personal opinion.
Id say give it a go if it works for you all good if not dont its that easy ;)
For Me any dirt road tc in :cool:

[Col 110]

So - I am sure this is documented else where, but....

What speed can you you engage the CDL - and do you need to use the clutch for CDL.

[jackdef90]

So - I am sure this is documented else where, but....

What speed can you you engage the CDL - and do you need to use the clutch for CDL.


Read your owners manual

[Col 110]

Read your owners manual

Thanks - I pick the car up on Wednesday - was that really a useful reply?

[85 county]

I'm the usual lone dissenting voice, but i hate the CDL engaged on dirt, prefer an open centre diff (and much prefer an ATB )

Too much understeer for this little black duck with the CDL locked.

yes your the odd one lol


i assume you are talking about a 130, if so you are not the first 130 driver who has said the same thing. must be the wheelbase, or you drive like wooden legs are cheep

my county is like driving on rails with the cdl in. under-steers when cdl is out.

[rangieman]

Double post:cool:

[rangieman]

So - I am sure this is documented else where, but....

What speed can you you engage the CDL - and do you need to use the clutch for CDL.

No clutch and any speed on the fly off or on;)

[85 county]

No clutch and any speed on the fly off or on;)
as long as no wheel is spinning and your are driving is a strait line

[rangieman]

as long as no wheel is spinning and your are driving is a strait line

Sorry i should have covered that as well ;) I did think that was a given :cool: But i get it if people are green all base`s need to be covered:angel:

[jackdef90]

Thanks - I pick the car up on Wednesday - was that really a useful reply?

I didn't realise you don't have the car yet.
But yes owners manual will tell you all the things you really need to know
There's even a plaque above the gear sticks that tells you the basics

[85 county]

Sorry i should have covered that as well ;) I did think that was a given :cool: But i get it if people are green all base`s need to be covered:angel:

na all good. it's a given, but really if people have to ask??

[Col 110]

I didn't realise you don't have the car yet.


True - I should have mentioned that I didn't have the 110 yet - and I guess it is a basic question - just wanted to know in case I need to use it when I drive it back from the dealer (350k drive).

[cuppabillytea]

This forum is chock full of thoroughly decent people. Self excluded.

[Col 110]

na all good. it's a given, but really if people have to ask??

Good luck to the forum if this is the response you get (as a paying subscriber) to ask simple questions that are easily answered.......

[tact]

This forum is chock full of thoroughly decent people. Self excluded.

Agree with you to exclude "Self". However a cuppabillytea is always a welcome delight.

[tact]

Good luck to the forum if this is the response you get (as a paying subscriber) to ask simple questions that are easily answered.......

Think you may have misread the intention behind 85county's comment.

[jackdef90]

Good luck to the forum if this is the response you get (as a paying subscriber) to ask simple questions that are easily answered.......

Your obviously quite easily disturbed.
This is a very good site, people are very helpful.

[Col 110]

Your obviously quite easily disturbed.
This is a very good site, people are very helpful.

Point taken - I did sound a bit grumpy - thanks for the advice

[AndyG]

Col,
Tomorrows's the big day ?, enjoy, i went through exactly what you are going through just a year ago. ;)

The folk on here will give you their last litre of oil, and everyone has an opinion, just like arseholes :D

If you haven't made plans try and get over to Glenreagh on the 1st weekend in October.

regards

Andrew

[Col 110]

Col,
Tomorrows's the big day ?, enjoy, i went through exactly what you are going through just a year ago. ;)

The folk on here will give you their last litre of oil, and everyone has an opinion, just like arseholes :D

If you haven't made plans try and get over to Glenreagh on the 1st weekend in October.

regards

Andrew

I feel like a four year old waiting to open my Xmas present - I can't wait. At the same time I feel quite anxious about it being so shiney and new and I don't want to break it if I do something stupid with it. Thanks all for the helpful advice.

[JoeFriend]

I feel like a four year old waiting to open my Xmas present - I can't wait. At the same time I feel quite anxious about it being so shiney and new and I don't want to break it if I do something stupid with it. Thanks all for the helpful advice.

Well, I sincerely hope after 3 weeks you change your mind on this and start to do silly things in it, otherwise what's the point?!?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

Well, I sincerely hope after 3 weeks you change your mind on this and start to do silly things in it, otherwise what's the point?!?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app
I'm sure that if he wasn't inclined to do silly things with it, he probably would never have bought it. In any case the Defender will extract all the silliness that's in him.
Cheers, Billy.

[tact]

I feel like a four year old waiting to open my Xmas present - I can't wait. At the same time I feel quite anxious about it being so shiney and new and I don't want to break it if I do something stupid with it. Thanks all for the helpful advice.

Just work the gears to keep it between 2000-3500 RPM (don't labour the engine, don't over rev it, don't sit for hours at one speed). Use between half to 3/4 throttle ... For the first thou km.

That'll get you pretty brisk progress down the road. Do NOT baby it along really gently! You need to get it on boost to set rings properly.

After that - drive it like you stole it (after its properly warmed up) for the next few thou km and you're set. It'll be near 30k km before its loosened up enough to notice it.

As others have said: you really DONT want to see any wild wheelspin with the centre diff unlocked/open - at any time in the vehicle's entire life.

Remember it's full time (constant) 4wd when the CDL is not locked. Great on roads or high grip (clean rock) type surfaces - right up until ANY one of the 4 road wheels loses traction.

With CDL unlocked (as it MUST be on tarmac etc) Once a single wheel loses grip and spins - ALL drive goes to that wheel, no drive to the other wheels, the loose wheel will spin wildly and the centre diff gets a hiding. Very bad.

Real life example: don't be giving it full noise when U-turning on wet tarmac like a teenager wanting to hang the tail out... This isn't dads old Holden where there are no real consequences to spinning up the inside rear wheel.

Handbrake: It's a separate brake on the driveline. Not acting on the rear wheel brakes like your dads Holden. Because of the constant 4wd it has an effect on all 4 wheels and its effectiveness varies with the position of the CDL and traction available to the wheels - so No handbrakies!

Real life example: Ignore at your own peril handbook and other advice to chock wheels (and maybe locking CDL) before jacking up a wheel to change a tyre.

As you may begin to see - advice to read the manual is VERY GOOD advice. Caring, loving advice. With that - work at really understanding the in/outs of the driveline, what the real life differences are between full time and part time 4x4 drive lines and what are the implications of all that.

A lot of good advice in a recent thread called "defenders for newbies" (or similar).

[cuppabillytea]

Good work Neil.

[tact]

Good work Neil.

Not really. I forgot - late model units sold in AUS likely have traction control fitted. So most of the dire warnings about spinning up the centre diff are redundant. B

[Col 110]

Nice work Neil - a great post with some nice gems in it - much appreciated.

[cuppabillytea]

Not really. I forgot - late model units sold in AUS likely have traction control fitted. So most of the dire warnings about spinning up the centre diff are redundant. B
It's still good advice traction control not withstanding.

[Col 110]

Just work the gears to keep it between 2000-3500 RPM (don't labour the engine, don't over rev it, don't sit for hours at one speed). Use between half to 3/4 throttle ... For the first thou km.

That'll get you pretty brisk progress down the road. Do NOT baby it along really gently! You need to get it on boost to set rings properly.

After that - drive it like you stole it (after its properly warmed up) for the next few thou km and you're set. It'll be near 30k km before its loosened up enough to notice it.


Thanks a lot for this advice (along with the rest of course) - I followed this on the drive home and it was quite a nice ride - I kept moving my speed around and used 4th and 5th to accel back to speed limit just so I didn't stay in sixth at 100 all afternoon - it handled the up and down hills really easily. I am all calm now.......

I came from Dubbo down to Mudgee and on to Lithgow and down Bells Line of Road to home - fun trip.

[steane]

I'm the usual lone dissenting voice, but i hate the CDL engaged on dirt, prefer an open centre diff (and much prefer an ATB )

Too much understeer for this little black duck with the CDL locked.

I agree. I find the fast dirt road handling with centre diff locked a little vague and unpredictable at times. Better with an open centre diff and much better with an ATB.

Up in the hills around Corryong recently and at 60km/h on winding mountain roads the difference was pronounced to say the least.

[YOLO110]

When I pick up the 110 this week I will have a stretch of 2k of dirt road to go over - do I need to engage CDL?

Of course not!

Think about it, realistically!

The blokes behind you in the 2wd family saloons would not even think about this stuff! They would also get from A to B without issue!

This CDL stuff is getting all a bit over-rated IMHO! ;)

[Summiitt]

Agreed, 70% of my driving is on dirt and I will never lock the centre diff, if your loosing traction or spinning wheels on dirt change your driving style. There's just no need to lock the diff for day to day high grip dirt, even when it's wet..

[Col 110]

Of course not!

Think about it, realistically!

The blokes behind you in the 2wd family saloons would not even think about this stuff! They would also get from A to B without issue!

This CDL stuff is getting all a bit over-rated IMHO! ;)

You are right of course :cool:

I think I was concerned about the "spinning wheel effect " on the centre diff and the harm it might do.

I had no experience with driving a Defender- and it was just a concern.

As I found out today on my drive back from the dealer that a Defender will drive perfectly comfortably on high grip dirt without CDL.

I am not sure why I got so concerned about it - but I was glad to know that if I needed to engage CDL I knew what to do.

[tact]

You are right of course :cool:

I think I was concerned about the "spinning wheel effect " on the centre diff and the harm it might do.

I had no experience with driving a Defender- and it was just a concern.

As I found out today on my drive back from the dealer that a Defender will drive perfectly comfortably on high grip dirt without CDL.

I am not sure why I got so concerned about it - but I was glad to know that if I needed to engage CDL I knew what to do.

You've most likely got traction control on your barge too (check into that!) - if so that really takes away the risks of wild wheelspin

[debruiser]

I have TC on my 2013 D90. It's rare to have that activate itself on a dirt road. Normally I only see it if I've either A) lifted wheels, B) driven into a mudhole, C) chained the car to a tree, D) Towing a trailer through really soft sand.

[cuppabillytea]

You've most likely got traction control on your barge too (check into that!) - if so that really takes away the risks of wild wheelspin
Hi Neil are you saying that yours does not have TC? It's the same YM as mine. Do LR not like Malaysians or something?
Cheers, Billy.

[tact]

Hi Neil are you saying that yours does not have TC? It's the same YM as mine. Do LR not like Malaysians or something?
Cheers, Billy.

That's right. No traction control or ABS etc on my MY2013 Defender.

The local Land Rover importer doesn't accommodate any customer options. They import one spec, in a couple of colours, as flat packs and they are assembled locally.

I thought I'd be able to spec mine like you blokes do, wanted to add traction control. But no go. "Take what you get. Do you want Galway Green or the James Bondy looking silver colour?"

Wanted traction control to give me a bit more oomph off-road to compensate a little for another decision: This time around I don't want to fit any of the usual accessories (bars/winch/snorkel), to keep the clean classic look unspoiled by anything except scratches and dents.

With the traction control option not available during build, and way too hard to bother with as aftermarket add - I went a different direction to at least partially compensate for the styling decision: fitted Ashcroft ATBs front and rear.

[ozscott]

Nice choice Tact!

Cheers

[tact]

Nice choice Tact!

Cheers

Thanks! (But do you mean the ATBs or the styling choice around no externally visible mods?). ;)

[cuppabillytea]

Yes well.and here was I thinking all that stuff was standard. That's good mod to put in. I don't think the ABS is a huge loss though. You get used to it and drop a skill level.
Cheers, Billy.

[tact]

Yes well.and here was I thinking all that stuff was standard. That's good mod to put in. I don't think the ABS is a huge loss though. You get used to it and drop a skill level.
Cheers, Billy.


To be honest I am not a big fan of electronic traction control (ETC), it must hammer the brakes and is rather complicated stuff with all the sensors etc. But I reckoned that with the decision to not fit a winch I'd likely need a little bit of help now and then - and ETC could deliver that. Reviews seemed to say that the newest versions of ETC were getting pretty good.

In many ways I am very happy to have been denied ETC by the Malaysian importer - I really like how the Ashcroft ATBs work. And they do work vey well!
- no electronics needed
- no sensors to damage or fail
- no friction pads/parts to wear out (i.e. brake pads with ETC, no clutch packs as in LSDs)
- seems to be more proactive than the definitely post-active nature of ETC.

The last point is liable to misunderstanding and controversy so will elaborate a little here:
The best way that I have come across to understand how ATBs (torque biassing diffs) work is like this - they are open diffs that are very bad at being open diffs, poor at allowing half shafts to rotate at different speeds.

There is one exception to the above statement, ATBs are good at being an open diff ....when there is no torque being applied to the diff input(s).

Notes:
1. "good at being an open diff" is a bad thing sometimes, its what you invest in these things to avoid!
2. diff "inputs" (why plural?): driving forward/reverse has the pinion as input, driven by the engine. Turn that around, when under engine braking, the half shafts are the inputs. ATBs work equally well (at being poor open diffs) either way.

When is there ever a "no torque" situation, which would cause the ATB to do a pretty good imitation of an open diff?
1. When you are coasting. i.e. in neutral, or clutch pedal down, broken drive components, and be aware.... when in gear but throttle position such that you are neither applying drive to the wheels, nor the wheels driving the engine.

2. whenever a single driven wheel on one side completely loses traction (e.g. wheel in air)

Note: this is because torque needs something to push against (overcome) or it doesn't exist. (Very layman's explanation)

So with an ATB: whenever you are applying drive it binds up and resists half shafts turning at different speeds (whether they are trying to do so or not). The more drive force applied (torque), the more resistance to differentiation.

So when one of those driven wheels encounters a patch of ground slippery ground - the diff is already resisting any differentiation action. Then when shafts do start turning at different speeds the ATB, being so bad at being open, still drives the non slipping wheel. (pre-active)

Whereas with ETC, the wheel on the slippery stuff has to break traction and spin up faster than the other wheel before the brakes are applied to control it. (post-active)

[steane]

Ive got an ATB in the front diff and its great on-road and provides added traction offroad until you lift a wheel. Then it's inferior to a locked diff or traction control. One of my favourite mods to be honest. Made a big enough difference in 99 percent of driving to be forgiven for the 1 percent. Would be perfect with TC. Works really well with a locked rear diff and is nice to CVs compared to a locker.

[cuppabillytea]

Traction control has been good enough for me most of the time. There have been a few situations but not irretrievable, where more traction would have meant, no problem.
I don't like TC on rear wheel drive road cars but I like the way it works on the Defender, and although I live in fear of Murphy's Law the complexity of doesn't worry me too much.
If I keep ending up in places I didn't mean to go, which I probably will, then I will eventually fit air lockers front and back.
Given your situation Neil, I think you've done as well as you can.

[tact]

Ive got an ATB in the front diff and its great on-road and provides added traction offroad until you lift a wheel. Then it's inferior to a locked diff or traction control. One of my favourite mods to be honest. Made a big enough difference in 99 percent of driving to be forgiven for the 1 percent. Would be perfect with TC. Works really well with a locked rear diff and is nice to CVs compared to a locker.

Absolutely 100% well said and supported.

Just to add... Left foot braking does actually help when there is an ATB involved. Definitely left foot braking won't be as good as ETC or a fully lockable diff, at getting torque to the wheel that's not in the air. But left foot braking is actually of some help when an ATB is fitted.

Heres why:
Left foot braking puts the same braking effect on both wheels. Both sides of the diff. Regardless one wheel in the air and one has traction.
- If the diff is an open diff it doesn't help a lot.
- If the diff is an ATB, while the braking effect is similar, the ATB will bias a bit more torque to whichever wheel is turning slower. Even just a little braking on the free spinning wheel will result in a bit of extra oomph heading to the other wheel.

[AndyG]

Anyone experienced Tc with Ashcroft Lsd?

[tact]

Anyone experienced Tc with Ashcroft Lsd?

Not me personally, of course, but in my reading have seen comments that indicate the traction control indicator hardly ever lights up after fitting ATBs

Certainly when a wheel is in the air the ETC would kick in on just that wheel and be way better than left foot braking, with ATBs, at getting torque to the other wheel.

[DazzaTD5]

As already mentioned and well covered...

I "teach" customers to:
On gravel, do whatever takes your fancy, on anything beyond that ENGAGE the centre diff.

The traction control on any Land Rover that has a LT230 transfer case (Discovery 2, Defender TD5 onwards) wont react quick enough to stop the side gears from spining and wearing out the side shims.

I call this wear on the side shims "Discovery 2 wear" as there was that year model that had no option to lock the centre diff. The bronze shims on the side gears wears so thin they either disappear completely or if still there are so thin they can be riped like paper.

Regards
Daz

[DiscoMick]

Used both TC and a locked centre diff up a steep, rutted, slippery forest trail at Possum Brush near Taree last week and it went very well. While the son in his lifted Hilux (no lockers or TC) with fat Cooper STs was spinning wheels and sliding about, George just ambled up in low-second (first was too slow) on his original GG TRs with minimal fuss. Very happy chappy I was - made my driving look better than it actually was.
I can see the potential benefits of an ATB, but at the moment there are higher priorities for my $, so its down my wish list.

[tact]

Used both TC and a locked centre diff up a steep, rutted, slippery forest trail at Possum Brush near Taree last week and it went very well. While the son in his lifted Hilux (no lockers or TC) with fat Cooper STs was spinning wheels and sliding about, George just ambled up in low-second (first was too slow) on his original GG TRs with minimal fuss. Very happy chappy I was - made my driving look better than it actually was.
I can see the potential benefits of an ATB, but at the moment there are higher priorities for my $, so its down my wish list.

If you have traction control - ATBs in front/rear diffs should be way low on any priority list I reckon. (I went for ATBs as traction control wasn't an option for me).

Wouldn't go so far as to proactively replace the centre diff with an ATB (and indeed haven't). By if my transfer case ever has to come out to address any failure both the adapter shaft and centre diff will be replaced by Ashcroft goodies.