Autonomous Vehicles

[Greatsouthernland]

i cant wait for the

**** ing autonomous vehicles thread.


Well damn it! How about those 'crazy & pesky' Range Rover things, people walking and driving at the same time, outrageous stuff :mad::confused:

If only I could afford one... :angel:

https://youtu.be/-iWBPprD93s

[Mick_Marsh]

Driverless car legislation to be introduced in South Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-22/driverless-cars-bill-to-be-introduced-in-sa/6795518)

What I would like to know, who is responsible when the car has an accident?

[bee utey]

Driverless car legislation to be introduced in South Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-22/driverless-cars-bill-to-be-introduced-in-sa/6795518)

What I would like to know, who is responsible when the car has an accident?

Probably legislation will be adapted as for speeding camera fines, the registered vehicle owner is liable unless they can reasonably show it's someone else's fault. In the same way land owners are liable if their animals wander onto the road and cause an incident, unless you can show that someone else was at fault for letting them out.

[austastar]

Hi,
I thought I read somewhere that Google were going to pay if it was a software fault that didn't cope with a situation that ended with a collision or an infringement.
Cheers

[Naviguesser]

Driverless car legislation to be introduced in South Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-22/driverless-cars-bill-to-be-introduced-in-sa/6795518)

What I would like to know, who is responsible when the car has an accident?

Has to be the computer programmer?

[Greatsouthernland]

"An estimated 90 per cent of accidents are caused by driver error - a figure the industry hopes driverless cars could help reduce drastically thanks to more reliable and logical robotic thinking. More efficient traffic flows and economical driving would benefit the environment and bring down our stress levels as well."

Driverless cars: Are we ready? - E & T Magazine (http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2015/09/driverless-car-issues.cfm)

Some of the technology, like telematics, has been around for over a decade. Telematics itself is a catch-all term for the converging of telecommunications technology with informatics. In recent times, this has led to a whole host of new developments, including parking sensors, GPS navigation, and automatic driver-assistance technology.

"So if we want to go driverless, we first have to tackle miles of red tape and legal issues. In its recent 'Pathway to Driverless Cars' report, the UK Government set out its ambition to make Britain a key territory for the development of driverless cars."

:D Yeh yeh, Adelaide is winning...

[Mick_Marsh]

"So if we want to go driverless, we first have to tackle miles of red tape and legal issues."
Food for thought.
Sometime in the future, you're in a driverless car. This car is not yours, it has no brake pedals, it has no steering wheel & you don't have a licence.
A child runs out into the path of the vehicle and an accident occurs.
Bear in mind you (being the only passenger) have no control over the vehicle.
I have not given details of the accident but assume an accident did occur.
Who is at fault? You, who has no control over the situation? The car manufacturer? The software developer? The local council?
All good questions and these are the questions that should be answered in law before the vehicles are allowed on the roads.
Ok. We will have 90% fewer accidents but the laws should be put in place for those 10%.

[carjunkieanon]

Food for thought.
Sometime in the future, you're in a driverless car. This car is not yours, it has no brake pedals, it has no steering wheel & you don't have a licence.
A child runs out into the path of the vehicle and an accident occurs.
Bear in mind you (being the only passenger) have no control over the vehicle.
I have not given details of the accident but assume an accident did occur.
Who is at fault? You, who has no control over the situation? The car manufacturer? The software developer? The local council?
All good questions and these are the questions that should be answered in law before the vehicles are allowed on the roads.
Ok. We will have 90% fewer accidents but the laws should be put in place for those 10%.

'Somewhere' (I have no idea where it actually was) I read a report by someone who travelled in a Google autonomous vehicle. He said that all the parameters for the vehicle's driving erred on the side of caution. If it thought there was a chance of colliding with something it stopped. At one stage it even detected movement through a hedge, that the passenger couldn't see, and so slowed the car. I wouldn't be surprised in the 'autonomous vehicle' future if there were less accidents. The car might just do a better job stopping to avoid a child than a person (distracted by radio/mobile phone/breakfast/alcohol/being a tosser).

So?in the above scenario, probably the child would be at fault. Or the parents for not supervising!

[strangy]

Easy it's the kids fault and the parents/ guardians bear the financial cost and the burden of death or injury.

It may upset the tech boffins but there is no future in our lifetime where driverless cars, pedestrians and manned cars, trucks, buses will function together in harmony.
Current technology is amazing but until it cant see the idiot behind the wheel and decide that they are not paying attention and delay a manouevre ( roundabouts, turns, overtaking) they will need to be segregated until such time as manned vehicles are gone.
No matter how good the driver or the technology, random behaviors are more then the capability of the equipment ( vehicle, electronics, brakes. human physical limitations)can handle.
I could not begin to count the number of times I have remained alive on my bike from paying attention to other drivers first and not completely taken by surprise at their actions.

[Greatsouthernland]

Food for thought.
Sometime in the future, you're in a driverless car. This car is not yours, it has no brake pedals, it has no steering wheel & you don't have a licence.
A child runs out into the path of the vehicle and an accident occurs.
Bear in mind you (being the only passenger) have no control over the vehicle.
I have not given details of the accident but assume an accident did occur.
Who is at fault? You, who has no control over the situation? The car manufacturer? The software developer? The local council?
All good questions and these are the questions that should be answered in law before the vehicles are allowed on the roads.
Ok. We will have 90% fewer accidents but the laws should be put in place for those 10%.

Valid points Mick.

Nothing is 100% safe, eventually with all progress some residual risk is accepted and efforts continue to reduce that further. Safety in transport is a continuing goal for good reason, from seat belts to air bags to collision avoidance systems & vehicle stability control, this is just another 'addition' to safety on the roads rather than a new hazard...in my view :)

While it is untested in the real world with conventional traffic and you raise a real possibility of a child entering the road, there are obvious advantages compared to the reaction times of elderly/visually impaired/inexperienced/intoxicated vehicle operators that are a positive.

Not being a lawyer myself, surely the responsibilities have already been determined (as a trial is scheduled), perhaps in the realm of the third party insurance we all pay, not sure but if I come across it then I'll post it.

As for an unlicensed driver and no brake pedal, I'm not sure the first would be allowed as there would need to be a default manual option to select and deselect autonomous mode requiring at least similar licensing to that we currently have. No brake pedal - again I haven't seen the 'actual' vehicle, but if you're correct, then similar to a train I suppose a 'dead man switch' or similar 'failsafe' device could work, there would have to be an emergency override before I took control of one ;)

[Redback]

How do you overtake bloody caravanners:confused:

[Greatsouthernland]

...It may upset the tech boffins but there is no future in our lifetime where driverless cars, pedestrians and manned cars, trucks, buses will function together in harmony...
.

But we have jets in the sky on autopilot mixed with other aircraft in manual control relying on some fairly basic technology (not 100% safe) to keep them separated. Obviously there aren't pedestrians in the sky (except the odd skydiver:D ) but birds are common, and birdstrike is an accepted risk for air travel, it can bring down a jet full of passengers.

[BMKal]

Interaction between autonomous vehicles and those with drivers is already resulting in accidents. ;)

Autonomous truck and water cart collide on site UPDATE | Mining Australia (http://www.australianmining.com.au/news/autonomous-truck-and-water-cart-collide-on-site)

[Mick_Marsh]

'Somewhere' (I have no idea where it actually was) I read a report by someone who travelled in a Google autonomous vehicle. He said that all the parameters for the vehicle's driving erred on the side of caution. If it thought there was a chance of colliding with something it stopped. At one stage it even detected movement through a hedge, that the passenger couldn't see, and so slowed the car. I wouldn't be surprised in the 'autonomous vehicle' future if there were less accidents. The car might just do a better job stopping to avoid a child than a person (distracted by radio/mobile phone/breakfast/alcohol/being a tosser).

So?in the above scenario, probably the child would be at fault. Or the parents for not supervising!
And if that is what is written in the law, that is just fine.
As long as the accountability is clearly defined.

[Greatsouthernland]

How do you overtake bloody caravanners:confused:

Simple really :p


? This paper presents the implementation of two
methods for real-time trajectory planning.
The first method follows the Partial Motion
Planning approach, and the second method uses 5 th degree
(quintic) polynomials to generate a detailed spatio-temporal
description of a trajectory to be performed.


Real-time Dynamic Trajectory Planning for Highly Automated Driving in Highways (PDF Download Available) (http://www.researchgate.net/publication/224190784_Real-time_Dynamic_Trajectory_Planning_for_Highly_Automa ted_Driving_in_Highways)

[Mick_Marsh]

Interaction between autonomous vehicles and those with drivers is already resulting in accidents. ;)

Autonomous truck and water cart collide on site UPDATE | Mining Australia (http://www.australianmining.com.au/news/autonomous-truck-and-water-cart-collide-on-site)
In the warehouse at work, the autonomous forklifts have been known to collide.

[Greatsouthernland]

Interaction between autonomous vehicles and those with drivers is already resulting in accidents. ;)

Autonomous truck and water cart collide on site UPDATE | Mining Australia (http://www.australianmining.com.au/news/autonomous-truck-and-water-cart-collide-on-site)

"...

According to the WA Department of Mines and Petroleum, the control room operator had programmed the autonomous haul truck to turn right at a pre-defined intersection and carry out a loop so it could be repositioned underneath an excavator on the pit floor.

It went on to state that change management processes for planning and assigning roads in the control system were inadequate, and that while an awareness system had been installed in the water cart to allow drivers to monitor autonomous trucks? paths at the time of the collision the water cart driver was not aware of the intended actions of the autonomous truck.

BHP confirmed the incident occured on one of their operations - albeit a year ago - telling Australian Mining that ?in August 2014, a manned water cart and an autonomous truck collided at BHP Billiton Iron Ore's Autonomous Haulage Production Trial at Jimblebar.

?No one was injured as a result of the incident.

?A thorough investigation into the incident has been conducted and measures have been implemented to prevent the incident from occurring again.?

The spokesperson added that this one-off incident has not dampened the miner's push into automation, stating that ?autonomous operations at Jimblebar are ongoing?.

The DMP went on to call for the elimination, or at the very least mitigation, of manned activities within autonomous mining areas.

It called for greater training of workers in their interactions with autonomous vehicles..."

[bee utey]

If an autonomous vehicle was made fully aware of all the dangers it faced on the open road, it would stay in its garage and whimper quietly, while sucking on its power cord. :p

[Greatsouthernland]

If an autonomous vehicle was made fully aware of all the dangers it faced on the open road, it would stay in its garage and whimper quietly, while sucking on its power cord. :p

Isn't that 'fear-mongering' of awareness the basis for science fiction stuff like 'Skynet' and the movie Terminator? ;) Sarah Conner, is that you? :p

https://youtu.be/_Wlsd9mljiU


https://youtu.be/DEtrzdGSXCU

[strangy]

But we have jets in the sky on autopilot mixed with other aircraft in manual control relying on some fairly basic technology (not 100% safe) to keep them separated. Obviously there aren't pedestrians in the sky (except the odd skydiver:D ) but birds are common, and birdstrike is an accepted risk for air travel, it can bring down a jet full of passengers.
Interesting how an autonmous vehicle would deal with an animal strike,
As a Pilot I would suggest that any comparison to aviation needs to be compared in context.
The comparison, to have any meaning, would require formations of 1000's of aircraft at varying speeds, phases of flight and separations of meters from the same number in opposite and crossing directions. With the added bonus of pedestrians and wildlife and weather Interspersed for amusement.
The only fully autonomous aircraft are Miles not meters from others and of a frequency that makes a country road look quiet, with the exception being military to military
Not saying it ( auto cars) won't or can't happen. I know it will one day just not while manned machines are on the road.

[Mick_Marsh]

They haven't fixed GPS's yet.
Wrong turn: Man watches car being hit after GPS sends him onto suburban train line - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-01/car-being-hit-by-train-after-gps-sends-onto-tracks/6818564)


Mine is often telling me to go through wheat paddocks.
I am very interested to see how autonomous vehicles cope with the complexity of our roads but I also would like to see the relevant laws in place and understood before they are allowed on our roads.

[Mick_Marsh]

Canberra should be test site for driverless cars, ACT Government says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-08/canberra-should-be-test-site-for-driverless-cars-act-government/7229524)

[cuppabillytea]

Canberra should be test site for driverless cars, ACT Government says - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-03-08/canberra-should-be-test-site-for-driverless-cars-act-government/7229524)
I agree with the Australian Government on this subject. After all who cares if a Polly gets snotted? :angel:

[DiscoMick]

I see the Google driverless car crashed into a bus. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.


Google car crash 'not a surprise' - US transport secretary - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35800285)

[cuppabillytea]

I was towing a barge to Brisbane in 2001. The Tug was equiped with two very expensive GPSs. We were about 20 Miles off Smoky Cape doing about 3.5 Knots. One GPS said we were 30 K North of Armidale doing 250 Knots. The other said we were doing 15 Knots which is still impossible and in the opposite direction.
I pulled them both out in Brisbane, took them to a dealer and left them with him for over a week. They didn't find any thing wrong with them but they didn't malfunction again as far as I know. :confused:

[V8Ian]

I was using a cheap Tom Tom and top of the range Navman in Corner Country. Both were conflicting and confused, but that's normal operating mode for the Navman.

[AndyG]

Driverless car legislation to be introduced in South Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-09-22/driverless-cars-bill-to-be-introduced-in-sa/6795518)

What I would like to know, who is responsible when the car has an accident?

It will be chock full of sensors so will go to the video ref :p

[AndyG]

I wonder if they will have a mood dial,
1, drunken hoon in old commodore
To
10 driving miss daisy

Imagine outside the schools with every kid being dropped off without mum, oh wait it may get better.
isn't landrover experimenting with technology where the vehicles communicate locally and centrally, I.e lookout new pothole at 66 Smith St etc

[trog]

school zones are on the whole driverless. the majority of those behind the wheel seem more intent on finding their precious little progeny than actually driving/thinking about the situation they are in. the steering wheel is a handgrip for swivelling about in the seat to look out or a phone and tablet holder

[Homestar]

So, who will be at fault, get the blame and be sued when (not if) a driverless vehicle kills someone? I can imagine the first test case like this will be very interesting.

[cuppabillytea]

If a Plane crashes the Papers will blame the Pilot first, so I imagine they'll do the same for Driverless Cars. The linch mob will begin to gather at that point.

[strangy]

I was using a cheap Tom Tom and top of the range Navman in Corner Country. Both were conflicting and confused, but that's normal operating mode for the Navman.

Here is a pic of one of the less accurate suggestions of my GPS.
I was overhead Oodnadatta.


106913

[cuppabillytea]

Cold comfort.

[Bushie]

Google self-driving car caught on video colliding with bus | Technology | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/mar/09/google-self-driving-car-crash-video-accident-bus)

Google are apparently re writing the software.


Martyn

[Sitec]

Hi all.

Thought you might like to see some of what I see/use/sell.. Here's a little video of Constantine showing how the Fendt Varioguide system works. He has now moved on and is working with Kubota Australia, where he is involved with the new M7 series large Kubota's (130-170hp).

In the video he shows you what is available on most Fendt tractors (standard on the 700's, 800's and 900's). Though it does not show too much driving unaided, the lines in that paddock are all done via the onboard computer, sat receiver and base stations (found all over the country and on many farms).

The tractor has a 'teach in' menu where up to 8 commands can be entered (at start of row activate autonomous steering finding your A/B line, increase revs, lower linkage, start PTO, and then at the row end reverse the commands and revert to operator control). This can all be activated by a 'Go' and 'End' button. As long as the operator has driven the headland so the tractor knows its boundary, it will basically work the whole paddock in accurate lines (50mm autonomously, down to about 10mm accuracy with RTK).

Here's the video, it'll show you what can be done (in this country). Europe allows a lot more to happen.. but that's another story! :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv0f0B-h4gE

[Sitec]

And here's a simpler video on an older Fendt of it in action.... :)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLXw5jnNLJd6QG8nfDsZGm0mfKs9sKSa7u&v=GyW1CsCipQ8

[Roverlord off road spares]

Policeman "Blow into the bag driver"... wait........ "ok, the analysis has provided a reading over the legal limit, I am placing you under arrest !"

Driver "on what charge?"

Policeman " Drink Driving"

Driver " Oh I wasn't driving the car was, and I don't use E10 in the tank so there's no alcohol ":p

[schuy1]

It appears that improvements via extra training to the computer controls(ie the human) already in use have been deemed impossible to achieve . :D

[DiscoMick]

Computers don't take drugs or get drunk, shout at their passengers, gawk at pretty pedestrians, get angry if someone cuts them off, eat or drink while driving, smoke, stop to get out and bash other drivers etc.
Considering some of the driving habits I've seen from people, computers are sounding better every day.

[Mick_Marsh]

Computers don't take drugs or get drunk, shout at their passengers, gawk at pretty pedestrians, get angry if someone cuts them off, eat or drink while driving, smoke, stop to get out and bash other drivers etc.
They just drive into busses and mock kangaroos.

[cuppabillytea]

They just drive into busses and mock kangaroos.

Mocking Kangaroos is politicly incorrect, so there's one bad habit to begin with. :p

[V8Ian]

Driver dies after Tesla autopilot fails to apply brakes - 9news.com.au (http://www.9news.com.au/technology/2016/07/01/14/43/first-fatality-involving-tesla-autpilot-after-car-fails-to-apply-brakes)

I know there was a thread about autonomous vehicles but, a search takes me to weighbridges, rooftop tents and many other subjects with no relevance to self driving cars. :confused:

Mods, feel free to move this post if you can find the original thread.

[Homestar]

Tragic but bound to happen sooner or later. Next big one for the makers to deal with is when thier cars kill someone like a pedestrian or such. :(

[PhilipA]

A Tesla statement (https://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/blog/tragic-loss'redirect=no)said the crash was a "tragic loss" and the first known fatality in more than "130 million miles (209 million km)".
Read more at Driver dies after Tesla autopilot fails to apply brakes - 9news.com.au (http://www.9news.com.au/technology/2016/07/01/14/43/first-fatality-involving-tesla-autpilot-after-car-fails-to-apply-brakes#sopKxGz0x2uysSgS.99)

Yes but I recall the driver was "watching a Harry Potter movie"

How many times has a driver had a dangerous situation develop and steered or braked intuitively and not reported it. I wonder.
Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

Yes but I recall the driver was "watching a Harry Potter movie"

How many times has a driver had a dangerous situation develop and steered or braked intuitively and not reported it. I wonder.
Regards Philip A
So, an autonomous car (those cars that are advertised as so much better than humans) needs a human (those beings that we are told can't be trusted to drive a car) to override the autonomous car when things go wrong.
Please, spare me the excuses.
Autonomous cars are dangerous. The maker of that vehicle should be held to account for the death of the fellow. They need to be encouraged to make a better product, not given special dispensation to continue to supply faulty product.

[Homestar]

Yes but I recall the driver was "watching a Harry Potter movie"

How many times has a driver had a dangerous situation develop and steered or braked intuitively and not reported it. I wonder.
Regards Philip A

As Mick says, what's the point of having an autonomous vehicle if you still need to control it? It either is, or it isn't. If Tesla are selling them as this, then why wouldn't you be watching a movie? If they aren't being sold as this, then they should require the driver to still maintain control of the vehicle at all times.

It can't be both depending on how well - or not, the technology is doing at the time...

[bee utey]

Analysis of the incident without the hyperventilating and outrage:

Fatal Tesla Self-Driving Car Crash Reminds Us That Robots Aren't Perfect - IEEE Spectrum (http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/fatal-tesla-autopilot-crash-reminds-us-that-robots-arent-perfect)

[PhilipA]

That is why I think the technology has a long way to go, and we won't be seeing convoys of autonomous vehicles on our roads anytime soon.

Come to think of it, the demo shown of trucks travelling nose to tail in Europe is currently very illegal in Australia and I would hate to try and overtake 20 trucks nose to tail on any of our roads, although many of our interstate truck friends seem to try and emulate it at times , just prior to the quick dodge out into the passing lane to pass another truck over a 10Kilometer stretch .LOL
Regards Philip A

[loanrangie]

I sure as hell would not take my eyes off the road unless it was on rails , we are no where near ready for a fully autonomous vehicle as long as thete are still people are in control of vehicles.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

[ramblingboy42]

A friend of mine has a new Subaru Forrester with all the bells and whistles including proximity sensors and cameras.

He said driving along the M1 in Qld , the car has already taken control off him when another vehicle has swerved across him too close for the sensors but what we would normally take for granted.

It has also not allowed him to apply power when trying to accelerate to merge from a slip lane onto the M1 because it senses other traffic travelling faster.

He has to turn it off in denser traffic because it is continually trying to "avoid" an accident.

What's the point of having sensor controls like that?.......and he's just set off on a trip towing a caravan. Will be interesting to talk to him when gets back.

[BMKal]

I sure as hell would not take my eyes off the road unless it was on rails , we are no where near ready for a fully autonomous vehicle as long as thete are still people are in control of vehicles.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using AULRO mobile app

I can tell you from personal experience - you wouldn't be taking your eyes off the "road" even if you were on rails. ;)

A few years back, I was driving a Toyota Troopy "Hi-rail" vehicle on one of BHP's iron ore railways - was taking a mining crew out to one of the satellite pits at night for shift change when the access roads were flooded after heavy rain. Standard procedure was to get onto the tracks at a level crossing close to the camp and reverse about a kilometre up through a cutting and a set of points, then stop & call up train control in Port Hedland to change the points - then drive forward through the points and out to the satellite mining operation about 18km away.

As I was reversing up through the top of the cutting, someone in the back of the vehicle reached up and turned on the interior light above the rear barn doors. All I saw in the rear vision mirror was a bright light behind me. :eek:

I can tell you that the brakes came on pretty quickly (they don't work too well when your tyres are running on steel railway tracks though) and my arse took a firm grip on the drivers' seat. :mad:

The person who had turned on the light got yelled at - and had to front up at the bar with a carton the next day. :p

[Sitec]

I can tell you from personal experience - you wouldn't be taking your eyes off the "road" even if you were on rails. ;)

A few years back, I was driving a Toyota Troopy "Hi-rail" vehicle on one of BHP's iron ore railways - was taking a mining crew out to one of the satellite pits at night for shift change when the access roads were flooded after heavy rain. Standard procedure was to get onto the tracks at a level crossing close to the camp and reverse about a kilometre up through a cutting and a set of points, then stop & call up train control in Port Hedland to change the points - then drive forward through the points and out to the satellite mining operation about 18km away.

As I was reversing up through the top of the cutting, someone in the back of the vehicle reached up and turned on the interior light above the rear barn doors. All I saw in the rear vision mirror was a bright light behind me. :eek:

I can tell you that the brakes came on pretty quickly (they don't work too well when your tyres are running on steel railway tracks though) and my arse took a firm grip on the drivers' seat. :mad:

The person who had turned on the light got yelled at - and had to front up at the bar with a carton the next day. :p

Ha! Totally off topic here, but this reminds me of a prank we pulled a few years back... Land Cruiser inspecting a local line at about 10kmh.. We let rip with a K5LA as he passes... His right foot went hard down when he heard the horn!! Hell it was funny!! :wasntme:

[BMKal]

Ha! Totally off topic here, but this reminds me of a prank we pulled a few years back... Land Cruiser inspecting a local line at about 10kmh.. We let rip with a K5LA as he passes... His right foot went hard down when he heard the horn!! Hell it was funny!! :wasntme:

I can just imagine it .................... particularly after hearing you let one rip when I was walking across the oval just before the "photo shoot" at Melrose last year. :p

(Well at least I think it was you - if it wasn't, somebody has been blaming you for it).

[Homestar]

Ha! Totally off topic here, but this reminds me of a prank we pulled a few years back... Land Cruiser inspecting a local line at about 10kmh.. We let rip with a K5LA as he passes... His right foot went hard down when he heard the horn!! Hell it was funny!! :wasntme:

You need to write a book - '101 uses for a set of K5LA's'

1 and 2 are already sorted

1 - Scare the crap of line inspector.
2 - Really **** off grumpy old fart at Land Rover show... ;)

I'm sure 3 to 101 could just about write themselves.... :D

[BMKal]

Can't be me you're talking about Gav. I wasn't ****ed off - I thought it was hilarious. :p

And I'm only a young fella ............... http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/oldgit.gif

[Homestar]

I can just imagine it .................... particularly after hearing you let one rip when I was walking across the oval just before the "photo shoot" at Melrose last year. :p

(Well at least I think it was you - if it wasn't, somebody has been blaming you for it).

It was him. :D

[Homestar]

Can't be me you're talking about Gav. I wasn't ****ed off - I thought it was hilarious. :p

Nope, there was only one that was - it was a delight to watch...

[Sitec]

It was even more fun giving him a serve back.. as I don't think it was something he was expecting! ;)

[cuppabillytea]

Some Tesla models have a hand free option, which while demanding the driver remains vigilant, will drive the vehicle without driver input. However in May there was a fatal accident involving one of these vehicles and the hard questions are now being asked.

[cuppabillytea]

Here's the story./Users/billtoohey/Dropbox/Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash, U.S. Says - The New York Times.html

[V8Ian]

Yes but I recall the driver was "watching a Harry Potter movie"

How many times has a driver had a dangerous situation develop and steered or braked intuitively and not reported it. I wonder.
Regards Philip A
The Anglia proved more reliable. :D

[350RRC]

At least Tesla was somewhat honest and stated that driver attention is required in auto mode.

The concern is really the use of statistics re: 1 fatality in 130 million k's for auto drive cars vs. 1 every 98 for 'normal' cars to justify the tech.

AFAIK the tech is only being used on highways.

Imagine if it became widespread in Oz? Where young female drivers already freely text on their way home from work, driving into the sun on a highway, and then get on secondary roads or worse with the car on auto?

Strange days, DL

[Bushie]

Reminds me of the times they were going to fly aircrat with one pilot and a dog on the flightdeck.

Pilot was there to feed the dog, dog was to make sure the pilot didn't touch the controls.


Martyn

[350RRC]

A friend of mine has a new Subaru Forrester with all the bells and whistles including proximity sensors and cameras.

He said driving along the M1 in Qld , the car has already taken control off him when another vehicle has swerved across him too close for the sensors but what we would normally take for granted.

It has also not allowed him to apply power when trying to accelerate to merge from a slip lane onto the M1 because it senses other traffic travelling faster.

He has to turn it off in denser traffic because it is continually trying to "avoid" an accident.

What's the point of having sensor controls like that?.......and he's just set off on a trip towing a caravan. Will be interesting to talk to him when gets back.

I use a very sophisticated device that lays on the back seat of my RRC to make similar complex decisions.

He weighs 58 kgs, speaks fluent Labradorian. and always seems to go in sleep mode when mobile, so I gather he is reasonably confident that the 'primary decision maker' doesn't malfunction very often.

DL

[350RRC]

I guess the really scary thing going into the future is the 'given' reliance on technology that basically absolves young people from gaining common sense , or space / time recognition or the ability to genetically pass on the ability to learn and develop such traits.

The 'given' is happening because it is well marketed as fashionable to have the latest tech stuff, the corporate world is very good at setting aspirations and social media only reinforces it.

DL

[cuppabillytea]

The Anglia proved more reliable. :D
The electrics in my Anglia were by Lucas Prince of Darkness. Need I say more?

Reminds me of the times they were going to fly aircrat with one pilot and a dog on the flightdeck.

Pilot was there to feed the dog, dog was to make sure the pilot didn't touch the controls.


Martyn
It's interesting that for some time now newer Liners have had the ability to steam into port autonomously yet they are still required to take a Pilot onboard and be assisted by Tugs.

[PhilipA]

I think the unions have something to do with this.

Like my recollection of the man with the red flag who used to walk in front of the engines at the Gabba trainyards when I was a Kid.

Or the bloke with the flag at railway stations.

This is why all the newer rail systems have exclusion walls at the stations, so no flagman.

Regards Philip A

[cuppabillytea]

No Philip. I don't think the unions have anything to do with it. The Insurance Companies and nervous Officials would be the reason. I suspect.

There is also the International Law which states that a Vessel under way must have someone keeping watch at all times. Unless you have a Local Knowledge Certificate you are not able to keep effective watch.

A Pilot is still required also because local Authorities need to be satisfied that the Ship is stable and all of its Manoeuvring Machinery are functioning normally.

A Chase Boat is required because of the number of pleasure craft that can be found on Sydney Harbour and the incidents that have occurred in the past.

Tugs are required because Sydney's weather can turn very windy very quickly and Liners Have a very high Gross/Dead weight Tonnage ratio.

[Mick_Marsh]

And we want to take control from the driver and give it to the technology!

Drone accidents mostly caused by technical problems, not operator error, research shows - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-24/drone-accidents-mostly-caused-by-faulty-equipment-research-shows/7780066)

[Mick_Marsh]

Uber launches driverless car service in landmark US trial - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-14/uber-launches-groundbreaking-driverless-car-service-in-us/7845820)

[AndyG]

Somewhere I read that Australian maps are being recalibrated to match gps locations more accurately due to continental drift since the 70s. They plan to do it more frequently in the future.

And of course there will be times with the supporting technology will fail for a period, be it gps, internet or the latest software update or a bizarre situation like a locust swarm, smoke, hail, dust etc or a meandering Defender driver in 2030

[Simon]

If parking sensors are anything to go by, auto driven cars will just bring us further down to the lowest braindead common denominator. I'm city centre (ish), parking is tight, so often see a car parked with 6ft each end, taking up 1.5 spaces, presumably as the sensors went beep.

[cuppabillytea]

If parking sensors are anything to go by, auto driven cars will just bring us further down to the lowest braindead common denominator. I'm city centre (ish), parking is tight, so often see a car parked with 6ft each end, taking up 1.5 spaces, presumably as the sensors went beep.

Probably just a senseless driver.

[jonesfam]

Nice hazard detection sensors, nerd: Why humans should bully driverless cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-24/why-humans-should-bully-driverless-cars/7953728)

Funny?

[ramblingboy42]

well, Australia is drifting north at about the same speed as hair grows.....

so work out how long your hair would be if you hadn't cut it since 1970 and thats about how far north Australia has moved in that time

[Homestar]

Nice hazard detection sensors, nerd: Why humans should bully driverless cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-24/why-humans-should-bully-driverless-cars/7953728)

Funny?

Yes. :) Although someone is bound to take it seriously and complain bitterly that us car drivers are being provoked into becoming bullies. :D


well, Australia is drifting north at about the same speed as hair grows.....

so work out how long your hair would be if you hadn't cut it since 1970 and thats about how far north Australia has moved in that time

Huh?

[Mick_Marsh]

A thought occurred.


Why put all this development into just driverless cars.


Why not prove the technology first on driverless trains. That will solve other problems.
Then driverless busses and tams.
Then pilotless domestic aircraft.


Buy then it should be proved with driverless taxis.


If all that is successful, then test driverless cars.

[Homestar]

What could possibly go wrong??? :D

[Mick_Marsh]

What could possibly go wrong??? :D
Wouldn't mind seeing a N class towing a N set up Bourke St.

[steane]

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/elon-musk-says-every-new-tesla-can-drive/

[Homestar]

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/elon-musk-says-every-new-tesla-can-drive/

Updates sent wirelessly...

I know all about that - I do it to some of my generators from time to time - great when it works, but will bring things to a grinding halt as well from time to time....

As does the automatic updates on SWMBO computer.

Be buggered if I'd let a car company keep screwing with my car like that. What the warranty claim going to be when you go out to drive to work in the morning and the automatic update puts your car into reverse instead of drive... :D

[DiscoMick]

Nice hazard detection sensors, nerd: Why humans should bully driverless cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-24/why-humans-should-bully-driverless-cars/7953728)

Funny?

I'm just chuckling with the idea that my Defender is probably almost as far as it's possible to get from a driverless car. I wonder if I'm driving it along and we meet a driverless car if it will cower in fear as we go past.
Actually, the perfect vehicle for bullying driverless cars might be a battered, rusty, dented and smoky old 60 series Toyota, crabbing its way across the lanes, trailing oil speckles while seeking out its victims, since the driverless car might be smart enough to realise the old 60 couldn't give a flying fart about getting more dents by shoving the DC out of its way.

The Tesla might have eight cameras, but how is it going to cope with road trains? Picture the scene: A Tesla comes up behind a 53.5 metre triple road train, lumbering along an unsealed road out the back of nowhere, trailing behind it a soupy slurry of cow****, rocks, mangled roo limbs and an impenetrable sandstowm of gritty dust. No way those eight cameras can see if it is safe to pass. So, what does that super-smart ECU do? Fry its circuits in a fog of indecision?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Mick_Marsh]

The Tesla might have eight cameras, but how is it going to cope with road trains? Picture the scene: A Tesla comes up behind a 53.5 metre triple road train, lumbering along an unsealed road out the back of nowhere, trailing behind it a soupy slurry of cow****, rocks, mangled roo limbs and an impenetrable sandstowm of gritty dust. No way those eight cameras can see if it is safe to pass. So, what does that super-smart ECU do? Fry its circuits in a fog of indecision?
I doubt a Tesla would meet a road train. 400km and they're dead flat.
It takes about 24 hours to charge from dead flat on a 240V 10A socket.

[trog]

If the aim is to automate most things people do , why have people about ? I don't see the masses performing exercises of great intellectual benefit

[bee utey]

I doubt a Tesla would meet a road train. 400km and they're dead flat.
It takes about 24 hours to charge from dead flat on a 240V 10A socket.
:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:
Because nobody has ever installed a 3 phase outlet outside of the bitumen road network. Next thing, you'll state that heavier than air flight is impossible, because Isuzu diesel engines are too heavy. :wheelchair:

.....................

Anyway, I wonder how autonomous cars will cope with this sort of thing:

Toilet paper spill causes peak hour traffic chaos in Melbourne - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-25/truck-spills-toilet-paper,-causes-traffic-delays-in-melbourne/7961876)

White lines everywhere... :p

[PhilipA]

My Firefox doesn't like that site . so I couldn't read the whole article.

However I have read elsewhere that there will be a price premium of USD10K for the enhanced version.
This would lift the new model price quite a lot if Std and I wonder how many will go for it, although buyers of Teslas seems to be new adopters who buy just to be the first with the latest.
Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

I was just thinking about the LA to NY comment by Musk.

I wonder how often the GPS data would have to be updated for that to work.

You know things like contra flows, men at work, new one way streets, detours, new expressways.
I know my GPS wanted me to drive into the lake south of Emerald and the dam has been there for years and years.

Regards Philip A

[jonesfam]

I was just thinking about the LA to NY comment by Musk.

I wonder how often the GPS data would have to be updated for that to work.

You know things like contra flows, men at work, new one way streets, detours, new expressways.
I know my GPS wanted me to drive into the lake south of Emerald and the dam has been there for years and years.

Regards Philip A

Maybe your GPS doesn't like you?

[DiscoMick]

I heard about a South Korean couple who flew into Brisbane, rented a car, set the GPS for Cairns and set off.
They were eventually found bogged at the end of a dead-end forestry trail in the hills west of Bundaberg, after following the GPS. Doesn't inspire confidence in GPS accuracy.

[Mick_Marsh]

:Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:
Because nobody has ever installed a 3 phase outlet outside of the bitumen road network.
A friend has a Tesla. Sadly, the required infrastructure to operate these vehicles Australia wide is not yet in place. Drop into a petrol station and ask if you can plug your car into a 3 phase socket for eight hours and see what I mean. You'll be lucky if they have a 16A socket available. For me to go for a drive to Melbourne CBD and back in a Tesla it's fine. For me to drive to Adelaide in a Tesla is an overnighter whereas I could comfortably do it in the Commodore within daylight hours.
Next thing, you'll state that heavier than air flight is impossible, because Isuzu diesel engines are too heavy. :wheelchair:


Don't be silly. The fuelling infrastructure is in place at the airports and planes nowdays have such big fuel tanks.
I don't see many battery powered commercial aircraft flying from capital city to capital city, let alone the long haul flights.

[bee utey]

Electric cars don't need petrol stations. Available power outlets/chargers are documented online. More will become available in due course. And not everyone considers 12 hours straight in a Commode to be a good thing.

Batteries May Trip (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-18/batteries-may-trip-death-spiral-in-3-4-trillion-credit-market)

Be aware, fossil fuel lovers.

[PhilipA]

What happens if you get to charger and somebody else is using it for 8 hours?

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

What happens if you get to charger and somebody else is using it for 8 hours?

Regards Philip A
Fast charger= 20 minutes, power point = find another one.

Anyway, Mr Marsh has yet to explain how a particular type of power point will prevent (not just hinder) an electric vehicle, autonomous or otherwise, from meeting a road train. :)

[Mick_Marsh]

Fast charger= 20 minutes, power point = find another one.

Anyway, Mr Marsh has yet to explain how a particular type of power point will prevent (not just hinder) an electric vehicle, autonomous or otherwise, from meeting a road train. :)
I didn't say it would. You just did.

[Homestar]

A friend has a Tesla. Sadly, the required infrastructure to operate these vehicles Australia wide is not yet in place. Drop into a petrol station and ask if you can plug your car into a 3 phase socket for eight hours and see what I mean. You'll be lucky if they have a 16A socket available. For me to go for a drive to Melbourne CBD and back in a Tesla it's fine. For me to drive to Adelaide in a Tesla is an overnighter whereas I could comfortably do it in the Commodore within daylight hours.
Don't be silly. The fuelling infrastructure is in place at the airports and planes nowdays have such big fuel tanks.
I don't see many battery powered commercial aircraft flying from capital city to capital city, let alone the long haul flights.

The infrastructure will come, the same as LPG did. When the first LPG powered vehicles hit the road in Australia, there were almost no outlets to buy the fuel. I remember the closest one to us was in the next town - 20KM away and Dad said no one would buy an LPG powered car because it would be too impractical to run it.

Jump forward to now and the same thing is happening with charging stations. It will come in time.

[Mick_Marsh]

The infrastructure will come, the same as LPG did. When the first LPG powered vehicles hit the road in Australia, there were almost no outlets to buy the fuel. I remember the closest one to us was in the next town - 20KM away and Dad said no one would buy an LPG powered car because it would be too impractical to run it.

Jump forward to now and the same thing is happening with charging stations. It will come in time.
But it is not here and now.

Interesting you should mention Gas. Another that is not here and now, but should be.
http://cafcp.org/m/sites/default/files/A%20California%20Road%20Map%20June%202012%20%28CaF CP%20technical%20version%29.pdf

I would like to see the fuel cell vehicle adopted here. We should be putting our efforts into sustainably producing hydrogen rather than producing more of those toxic lithium ion batteries that will need to be disposed of when they die.

The beauty of hydrogen it that it takes minutes to fill the tank. Not hours to recharge the batteries.
Also, it's exhaust gas is water vapour. How green is that!

[PhilipA]

I don't know if things have changed in the last 20 years, but about 20 years ago Perth did a trial of hydrogen powered buses in conjunction with British Oxygen.

My acquaintance was the MD of British Oxygen Oceania, and he told me the story that is was the most disastrous project that he had ever been involved in.

The story as I remember it was that BO supplied industrial quality hydrogen to the council which then caused all the buses to malfunction.

It turned out that pure hydrogen with very low impurities was necessary to run the buses and that this cost a LOT of money to produce and had to be stored very carefully.

So do not just assume that any old hyrogen is sufficient to run hydrogen powered cars or fuel cells which may or may not be even more picky in their quality requirements.

Regards Philip A.

[Mick_Marsh]

I don't know if things have changed in the last 20 years, but about 20 years ago Perth did a trial of hydrogen powered buses in conjunction with British Oxygen.

My acquaintance was the MD of British Oxygen Oceania, and he told me the story that is was the most disastrous project that he had ever been involved in.

The story as I remember it was that BO supplied industrial quality hydrogen to the council which then caused all the buses to malfunction.

It turned out that pure hydrogen with very low impurities was necessary to run the buses and that this cost a LOT of money to produce and had to be stored very carefully.

So do not just assume that any old hyrogen is sufficient to run hydrogen powered cars or fuel cells which may or may not be even more picky in their quality requirements.

Regards Philip A.
I take it they were hydrogen fueled internal combustion motors in the buses.

Fuel cells are an old and proven technology. Mid 19th century I think. Over the decades it has had many refinements.
The beauty about fuel cells is you can use all sorts of fuels, not just hydrogen gas. A fuel cell can be fueled with natural gas, methanol or ethanol. It gets it's oxygen from the atmosphere which has all sorts of impurities in it. Unfortunately, a methane fuel cell produces CO2, which is something we are trying to avoid.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

oh look! an autonomous vehicle!:angel:
and beer!:cool:

Autonomous beer transport is happening in Colorado - Autoblog (http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/25/budweiser-autonomous-beer-transport-colorado/)

[PhilipA]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lack-of-cheap-clean-hydrogen-slows-fuel-cell-cars/

Hmmm.
Also look at the projected costs . I was looking for something on cost as I recall that the fuel for the fuel cells sold by Kimberley Campers was very expensive.

Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lack-of-cheap-clean-hydrogen-slows-fuel-cell-cars/

Hmmm.
Also look at the projected costs . I was looking for something on cost as I recall that the fuel for the fuel cells sold by Kimberley Campers was very expensive.

Regards Philip A
Thanks for that. An interesting read.
It confirmed much of what I already knew. Mind you, I didn't know they had sold that many cars and I didn't know they had got the cost of hydrogen down that much.

[isuzurover]

I don't know if things have changed in the last 20 years, but about 20 years ago Perth did a trial of hydrogen powered buses in conjunction with British Oxygen.

My acquaintance was the MD of British Oxygen Oceania, and he told me the story that is was the most disastrous project that he had ever been involved in.

The story as I remember it was that BO supplied industrial quality hydrogen to the council which then caused all the buses to malfunction.

It turned out that pure hydrogen with very low impurities was necessary to run the buses and that this cost a LOT of money to produce and had to be stored very carefully.

So do not just assume that any old hyrogen is sufficient to run hydrogen powered cars or fuel cells which may or may not be even more picky in their quality requirements.

Regards Philip A.

Actually it was only 2004-2008, and BOC only came on board 2 years into the project (BP supplied the hydrogen for the first 2 years).
Fuel cells do need pure hydrogen or they will foul. Hydrogen embrittlement and other storage/transfer issues will always be a problem.

[isuzurover]

This thread is a bit silly.

I was recently in europe and discussed these issues with industry experts.
The general consensus was that diesel (or diesel-like fuels) will be the dominant fuel for long distance transport/travel for at least another 30 years.

However electric or [insert liquid fuel]/electric hybrids will become the dominant propulsion for passenger vehicles in a much shorter period than that. Every car manufacturer is struggling to catch up with Tesla.
Edit: but I don't mean current hybrid designs - more the diesel-electric hybrids seen in trans and military vehicles, where the combustion engine drives a generator and the propulsion is by electric wheel motors.

The best option I can see is standardised batteries and "swap and go" battery stations. However fast charging stations seem to be the preferred route.

[PAT303]

I think people just look at the vehicles themselves forgetting all the infrastructure that goes with them.People talk about electric cars like Tesla's as the future but how do people who live in the city with street parking going to charge them?,where's the money going to come from to maintain roads when we don't pay fuel excise as examples?. Pat

[isuzurover]

I think people just look at the vehicles themselves forgetting all the infrastructure that goes with them.People talk about electric cars like Tesla's as the future but how do people who live in the city with street parking going to charge them?,where's the money going to come from to maintain roads when we don't pay fuel excise as examples?. Pat

Of course that is an issue.
However there are already 10 charging stations in the WA southwest and over 30 in Perth.
Locations of the RAC Electric Highway Chargers | RAC WA (http://electrichighway.rac.com.au/map)

I saw a tesla parked in town near the farm the other day - around 300 km from perth.

[Homestar]

I think people just look at the vehicles themselves forgetting all the infrastructure that goes with them.People talk about electric cars like Tesla's as the future but how do people who live in the city with street parking going to charge them?,where's the money going to come from to maintain roads when we don't pay fuel excise as examples?. Pat

I think you'll find a new taxation model for road use will be introduced - there is talk of this already and what you pay would be based on KM travelled, etc. the 'experts' claim the systems they are developing won't disadvange country drivers, but I'm yet to see a model that wouldn't punish them.

[PhilipA]

I think you'll find a new taxation model for road use will be introduced
Ha ha!!
It already has been introduced in Sydney.

It costs $120 a week to drive from the North West to the City and home.

New tolls are now being introduced on the M4 which is the oldest expressway but is now being widened by a private company.

It costs $10 or so each way on the M7-M2 which is in practical terms unavoidable if you want to travel from the North of the City to the South or to Canberra.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

Prediction that jerks will rule the road:

Will Overly Polite Self-Driving Cars Brake for Jerks? - IEEE Spectrum (http://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/self-driving/overly-polite-self-driving-cars-will-brake-for-jerks)

[Naviguesser]

Your can get your beer in the USA by a self driven truck .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb0Kzb3haK8

[PhilipA]

So does this mean that we can look forward to trucks that don't sit 1 metre from your rear bumper at 110kmh?
Does it mean trucks not travelling in convoy then overtaking at slow speeds on hills?
I fear that after atrial they will be seen to be too slow in Oz after one follows a caravan at 70-80kmh from Sydney to Brisbane and arrives an hour or two later than the normal aggressively driven truck.

If the above I am all for it.
Regards Philip A

[Homestar]

So does this mean that we can look forward to trucks that don't sit 1 metre from your rear bumper at 110kmh?
Does it mean trucks not travelling in convoy then overtaking at slow speeds on hills?
I fear that after atrial they will be seen to be too slow in Oz after one follows a caravan at 70-80kmh from Sydney to Brisbane and arrives an hour or two later than the normal aggressively driven truck.

If the above I am all for it.
Regards Philip A

I would think the industry would jump at the chance. No drivers means no breaks, no driver changeovers, etc. Can you imagine a trucking company that could turn a truck loose from thier depot in Melbourne or Sydney and have it travel non stop to Perth, then in the time it takes to swap its trailers over and refuel it, send it back?

The savings on wages, driver abuse of the truck, etc would be way more than the couple of hours saved by a renegade driver pedalling too hard.

[Mick_Marsh]

I think driverless trucks should be a priority before cars.
I think driverless trains should be a priority before trucks.
Can you imagine, at the train platform, as soon as one train leaves, another arrives. They would be able to put so many more services on a line. It would go some way towards solving the overcrowding issue.
Melbourne train commuters increasingly squeezed onto overcrowded carriages - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/melbourne-train-overcrowding-getting-worse-survey-shows/7868980)

[Homestar]

I think driverless trucks should be a priority before cars.
I think driverless trains should be a priority before trucks.
Can you imagine, at the train platform, as soon as one train leaves, another arrives. They would be able to put so many more services on a line. It would go some way towards solving the overcrowding issue.
Melbourne train commuters increasingly squeezed onto overcrowded carriages - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/melbourne-train-overcrowding-getting-worse-survey-shows/7868980)

Absolutely. Driverless trains are becoming common in a lot of areas around the world, but as always with public transport in Australia, we are a third world nation when it comes to these things. It will be 20 years at least before they look at this.

[Mick_Marsh]

Absolutely. Driverless trains are becoming common in a lot of areas around the world, but as always with public transport in Australia, we are a third world nation when it comes to these things. It will be 20 years at least before they look at this.
If autonomous public transport is unachievable, I have no faith they will achieve autonomous cars.
I would love to have an autonomous car. I'd love to sleep in the back seat whilst it drives me to work.

[PAT303]

So does this mean that we can look forward to trucks that don't sit 1 metre from your rear bumper at 110kmh?
Does it mean trucks not travelling in convoy then overtaking at slow speeds on hills?
I fear that after atrial they will be seen to be too slow in Oz after one follows a caravan at 70-80kmh from Sydney to Brisbane and arrives an hour or two later than the normal aggressively driven truck.

If the above I am all for it.
Regards Philip A

Yep,lets lay all the blame on truck drivers :mad:. Pat

[PAT303]

I would think the industry would jump at the chance. No drivers means no breaks, no driver changeovers, etc. Can you imagine a trucking company that could turn a truck loose from thier depot in Melbourne or Sydney and have it travel non stop to Perth, then in the time it takes to swap its trailers over and refuel it, send it back?

The savings on wages, driver abuse of the truck, etc would be way more than the couple of hours saved by a renegade driver pedalling too hard.

I can't wait to share the road with oncoming 40+ tonne driverless trucks doing 100km/hr. My navman can't even get me to Perth without getting lost :o. Pat

[jonesfam]

Driverless trucks?
That's going to take all the fun out of UHF channel 40!

Also, out here at least, seeing the truck drivers every week is a bit of a social event. Chance to have a whinge about how hot it is, how suppliers never have the stuff ready on time & so on.

I like having my truck drivers turn up, phone me if they are running late, grab me some KFC to bring up, give me the road conditions & tell each other we're nuts.

Also nice to have the drivers call you up on the long drive home & tell you it's safe to overtake.

Long live the Truck Drivers!
Most of them anyway.

Jonesfam

[DiscoMick]

Railway lines are a much more controlled environment than roads, so wouldn't driverless trains be a lot easier to achieve? There are already driverless coal trains.

[Mick_Marsh]

Railway lines are a much more controlled environment than roads,
Yes.

so wouldn't driverless trains be a lot easier to achieve?
One would think so.

There are already driverless coal trains.
Why don't we have driverless commuter trains on the suburban network? I would have thought it would be so much more achievable and so much more of an impact on our society. We need to get our priorities right.

[DiscoMick]

Brisbane has driverless trains right now, but it's a bad thing, caused by a past government's failure to train enough drivers, apparently.
Lifts used to have drivers, until they were phased out.
I understand the logic behind driverless vehicles, but I just don't trust the technology. Plus, some idiot bogan would probably use the absence of a driver as an excuse to trash the carriage.

[Fluids]

... and when autonomy rules the transport sector you can betcha bottom dollar the hackers are going to cause havoc ... for no other reason than they can ... and they will. It will be a new challenge for them.

Sent by iPhone using two tin cans and Forum Runner

[Homestar]

I can't wait to share the road with oncoming 40+ tonne driverless trucks doing 100km/hr. My navman can't even get me to Perth without getting lost :o. Pat

That reminds me of the first driverless straddle at the docks - it was switched on with 100's of onlookers to much fanfare, where it promptly drove off the dock into the water. Aparently the GPS in it had been incorrectly programmed... :D

[Homestar]

If autonomous public transport is unachievable, I have no faith they will achieve autonomous cars.
I would love to have an autonomous car. I'd love to sleep in the back seat whilst it drives me to work.

Autonomous public transport is very achievable and is here right now - but not in Melbourne. The Private sector will have more luck than the bumbling fools that look after the trains.

In China, the Maglev to the airport is fully automated - and runs at 400KPH with a service departing every 2 minutes to the second. The trip takes 6 minutes each way and there are 6 trains on the track - basically 1 at each station, and 2 in transit on each line at any one time.

We've been talking about a train line to the Airport since the 70's, but we aren't any closer to building it than we were then, so by my reasoning we should have automated trains in Melbourne in about 70 years time.

[PhilipA]

The new Sydney North West line will be driverless.

The reason that intervals are 5 minutes at present are for safety as the control systems are inadequate and will cost many millions to upgrade.

AFAIK Sydney is planning for 2 minutes but also changing from double decker to single decker as the greatest delay is time at station for people to get on and off the two decks.
Regards Philip A

[Mick_Marsh]

Autonomous public transport is very achievable and is here right now - but not in Melbourne................... we should have automated trains in Melbourne in about 70 years time.
For the purposes of my discussion in relation to autonomous cars, I interpret that as "not achievable".
So, why are they saying we will all be riding in autonomous cars in Melbourne in ten years time?
As said before, I would be happy to have an autonomous car, but, what people are brushing aside is what laws are in place for the introduction of these vehicles?
When they have an accident, and kill someone (as they have and they will), who is at fault?
The way they are sitting it up the patsy will be the bunny sitting in the car who has no control over it. Let's face it, if that bunny was capable of controlling a car, they wouldn't be in a driverless one.
I reckon they should lay the blame squarely on the constructor, the programmer and the person who approves the legislation allowing these vehicles on the road. Not the office or position, the person.

[DiscoMick]

It's going to be a lawyers picnic, I think. Imagine trying to get insurance for a driverless vehicle. What would be 'reasonable risk'?

[bee utey]

It's going to be a lawyers picnic, I think. Imagine trying to get insurance for a driverless vehicle. What would be 'reasonable risk'?
Once a hundred or more have completed a years service in a real life situation (e.g. one city adopts them), there will be ample data to calculate risk. Once a million are on the roads insurance will be easy. Just as VW the corporation as a whole took the blame for the actions of a few crooked engineers and officials, autonomous vehicle manufacturers will cover/self insure themselves for occasional guidance failures. A person dying due to guidance failure is no different to a person dying due to a manufacturers fault, e.g. an ignition lock failing. Insurance companies exist to make money and their premiums will be set according to the calculated risk.

[Fluids]

It's going to be a lawyers picnic, I think. Imagine trying to get insurance for a driverless vehicle. What would be 'reasonable risk'?

Reasonable ? Much less than currently your Honour ... they ARE safer ...

;)

Sent by iPhone using two tin cans and Forum Runner

[Davehoos]

BBC TV News EXPERT had the Autonomous Vehicle as a great novelty that eventually in the fullness of time have its place,.... giving dates like 2050-2070.


The reason given for British government position was the need to free up spectrum for the system to work without blackout spots.


The only way that the idea would float in UK/Europe was off the American market over flow.


something about the murray river that stops ideas working.

[V8Ian]

:Rolling: driverless beer trucks, I can see them arriving at their destination, already unloaded. :twisted:

[trog]

As experience tells me even those with drivers lost a few cartons to high school kids following them about. Fre beer tasted good , no matter the brand,

[Mick_Marsh]

Uber halts testing of self-driving cars on San Francisco roads after registration revoked - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-22/uber-removes-self-driving-cars-from-san-francisco-roads/8142474)

[jonesfam]

An open letter on our future with driverless cars (http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/an-open-letter-on-our-future-with-driverless-cars/ar-BBxx1SW?li=AA8ewQ&ocid=spartanntp)

Amusing but True?

[cuppabillytea]

Yes it's true, and amusing, but how sad is it? In consolation there has to be a few golden years before driven cars are banned. I:burnrubber::burnrubber::burnrubber::burnrubber:

[hodgo]

New Mercedes AA Class answer to hybrids and Tesla?

http://sundown.me.uk/technolog y/mercedes-aa-class.mp4

[Mick_Marsh]

New Mercedes AA Class answer to hybrids and Tesla?

http://sundown.me.uk/technolog y/mercedes-aa-class.mp4
Don't know why your link doesn't work but here's the youtube one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k1tbf8muMc

[Mick_Marsh]

Make mine a sleep pod, thanks.

Sleep pods, dog deliveries and sex behind the wheel: how we'll use driverless cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-06/sleep-pods-and-sex-how-we-will-use-driverless-cars/8328674)

And that article links to an American futurists musings.
25 Shocking Predictions about the Coming Driverless Car Era in the U.S. | DaVinci Institute – Futurist Speaker (http://www.futuristspeaker.com/job-opportunities/25-shocking-predictions-about-the-coming-driverless-car-era-in-the-u-s/)

[Eevo]

anyone see the vid on the driver-less car this week that didnt recognise the lane merge and crashed into concrete barrier.

[Mick_Marsh]

anyone see the vid on the driver-less car this week that didnt recognise the lane merge and crashed into concrete barrier.
Nup. Post up a link.

Won't be as funny as when it ploughed into the paper mache kangaroo, though.

[Eevo]

Nup. Post up a link.

Won't be as funny as when it ploughed into the paper mache kangaroo, though.



yea im stuggling to find where i found it originally.

[Eevo]

Tesla Autopilot Crash Caught On Dashcam | Zero Hedge (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-02/tesla-autopilot-crash-caught-dashcam)

still cant find the vid

[Eevo]

try this one

Dash cam footage of the potential autopilot crash posted recently. : teslamotors (https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/5x15je/dash_cam_footage_of_the_potential_autopilot_crash/)

[DiscoMick]

Make mine a sleep pod, thanks.

Sleep pods, dog deliveries and sex behind the wheel: how we'll use driverless cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-06/sleep-pods-and-sex-how-we-will-use-driverless-cars/8328674)

And that article links to an American futurists musings.
25 Shocking Predictions about the Coming Driverless Car Era in the U.S. | DaVinci Institute – Futurist Speaker (http://www.futuristspeaker.com/job-opportunities/25-shocking-predictions-about-the-coming-driverless-car-era-in-the-u-s/)
Excellent articles. Society will be so much better.

[V8Ian]

Imagine how easy it is going to be, to hijack an autonomous truck.

[Homestar]

I don't think this guys got some of this right - 25 Shocking Predictions about the Coming Driverless Car Era in the U.S. | DaVinci Institute – Futurist Speaker (http://www.futuristspeaker.com/job-opportunities/25-shocking-predictions-about-the-coming-driverless-car-era-in-the-u-s/#comment-60832)

He claims there will be fewer cars on the road and car ownership will drop dramatically as people share the vehicles on the road.

I don't think people will do this - they will want their own - I certainly will. I don't want to get into a vehicle other have Ben using before me for God knows what...

[DiscoMick]

It will be like having a Uber continuously available.

[Eevo]

driverless firetrucks.

not sure this is a good idea

[trog]

Or police cars ?

[V8Ian]

Or police cars ?
I can see benefits there. [bigrolf]

[trog]

Get with the plan Ian, you book yourself in with your smart phone just like an uber.

[DiscoMick]

Or police cars ?
Won't need many police cars if most crashes and road rage are eliminated.

[DiscoMick]

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Volvo's driverless cars 'confused' by kangaroos - Volvo's driverless cars 'confused' by kangaroos - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40416606)

[bee utey]

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Volvo's driverless cars 'confused' by kangaroos - Volvo's driverless cars 'confused' by kangaroos - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40416606)

Yes, but once they've learned how to recognise roos then every autonomous car can be programmed with the same information. Whereas each and every driver has to be trained anew.

[Wraithe]

Yep and when there is an electrical problem or computer malfunction 1,000 k's from the nearest city, then what... oh yeh passengers die of thirst but they didnt die as a result of an accident or is it an accident, maybe not because no collision...

[bee utey]

Yep and when there is an electrical problem or computer malfunction 1,000 k's from the nearest city, then what... oh yeh passengers die of thirst but they didnt die as a result of an accident or is it an accident, maybe not because no collision...

There won't be electronic communications in a future full of autonomous vehicles? Going bush in an AV without backup similar to an EPIRB would be as daft in the future just as it is now by any other means.

[350RRC]

Yes, but once they've learned how to recognise roos then every autonomous car can be programmed with the same information. Whereas each and every driver has to be trained anew.

Roos hopping down a road in front of you operate with an algorithm that no computer will ever conquer.

DL

[bee utey]

Roos hopping down a road in front of you operate with an algorithm that no computer will ever conquer.

DL

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/06/23.jpg

[Wraithe]

There won't be electronic communications in a future full of autonomous vehicles? Going bush in an AV without backup similar to an EPIRB would be as daft in the future just as it is now by any other means.

I got to use an EPIRB a couple of years ago... In NZ...
Good for people that need them, and as I was in NZ, not really knowledgeable of there country...

Over here, never had them when I was young, it was a case of, you break down and dont get home by tuesday, then may as well not rush because you missed the pool comp at the pub anyway...

If the future goes all gadget minded and reliant upon technology to make decisions for us, we will pay the price...

People need to remember, if something stops working and you haven't learnt to do something without that technology, then its more dangerous than before the technology...
Example would be ABS, stability control or traction control... Nice flash technology but take someone that has never driven without this technology and you have a person that is an accident waiting to happen...

When I teach someone to drive, its without those gadgets... My son and his friends are shown how to handle vehicles that dont have any of those gadgets and when you take someone into a paddock, thats wet and greasy, up a slope in a ute that has no lsd, no gadget controls and they are able get up the hill where someone else with a 4wd is sliding backwards, they soon discover that gadgets are great but skill is more fun...

We are losing all these skills, we are making the problems that we should be preventing in the first place... If you never learn to drive and something goes wrong with your autonomous vehicle, you are stuck on the road waiting for someone to save you... That is another problem being created when you could learn those skills and continue with slight inconvenience..

The other issue is, we are not teaching people the correct skills and attitude of driving as it is, so are we not going to be allowed to drive eventually?

Technology is great but it is only a tool, just like a hammer, but to let that hammer do the work without you...[bighmmm]

[bee utey]

People who show aptitude to drive can and will always have the opportunity to learn. Those with no innate ability should be happy with autonomous vehicles as they will far exceed their inadequate skills. It's much like pilot's licences, only a small percentage of the population have a pilots licence. The largest percentage pay to sit in a plane that's piloted pretty much automatically these days.

Quite a few industries are already partly or mainly autonomous, warehousing, manufacturing, mining and farming are examples. Dull and repetitive tasks are better all round when automated. I spoke recently to a farmer who spends much of his day sitting and observing while the tractor he's on pirouettes around a vast field doing its own thing. Soon these things will be remotely monitored like mining trucks and only visited when they break down. Electronics may crash occasionally and cause a shut down but even the best driver occasionally loses the plot and causes an incident.

[Sitec]

Quite a few industries are already partly or mainly autonomous, warehousing, manufacturing, mining and farming are examples. Dull and repetitive tasks are better all round when automated. I spoke recently to a farmer who spends much of his day sitting and observing while the tractor he's on pirouettes around a vast field doing its own thing.......


Here is a vid showing exactly that.... 50 seconds in you can see Autonomous Steering in action.. Mouldboard ploughing is still very common in Europe, and with smaller ploughs, the tractor used to run with 2 wheels in the previous ploughed final furrow.... Now tho the kit is so big (Fendt 1050 is a front wheel assist 500hp machine.. The biggest front wheel assist tractor currently available), the plough has to be centrally towed, meaning the tractor no longer runs in the furrow. Here's where the accuracy of Autosteer comes in. Accuracy within 25mm using a base station on or near farm. (Sub meter if using 'free to air').

Fendt 1050 vario + 8 furrow Lemken Diamant 11 On-Land Plough | KMWP Ploegen / Pflugen - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4zTiEeWjYOQ)

At 3.05min, you get an in cab shot showing the steering wheel (unmanned), and a view of the 'Varioterminal' showing the area covered/worked. The tractor is following an 'A-B Line', which is set up upon entering the paddock (setup requires implement widths, pivot points, overlap etc). This can be done by driving a lap of the headland manually first, defining the outer area of the land to be worked, and then the system will work out the best way to do the infill, or it can be set by driving the longest length of the paddock manually, setting point A at the start and B at the finish of the run. Once set, the operator sets up for the first run and presses 'Go'. The tractor locates the A-B line, (and if set up using Fendt 'Teach In', can then also do several other things like increase revs, engage PTO, set speed, lower linkage etc). As the operator nears the opposite headland, he presses 'End' on the joystick, and resumes control. If Teach In is being used, the tractor will reverse the process initiated at 'Go'. A turn is manually made by the operator, and when he/she has the tractor within a few meters of the start of the next row, 'Go' is again pressed and the whole process is repeated! Sounds difficult, but once setup, it's very easy. What's more is that the tractor will log that paddock (whole far too), and will know which paddock its in the next time around.. (Type in implement and it'll adjust to suit)!!! I won't go into Isobus, as that's got even more magic to it!! :)

[Homestar]

You're off the clock now Simon... [biggrin]

[Sitec]

You're off the clock now Simon... [biggrin]

It's impressive tho eh!! :)

[Homestar]

That it is!

[donh54]

John Deere I was driving before last grain harvest planting dry land cotton was accurate to within 1.5 cm if a ground station was available, or within (IIRC) 7 to 10 cm if on satellite only

[DiscoMick]

Happening right here in Brisbane:

Driverless cars: university competition to build the fastest vehicle to drive itself - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-05/driverless-droid-racing-car-university-competition/8678650)

[Mick_Marsh]

Happening right here in Brisbane:

Driverless cars: university competition to build the fastest vehicle to drive itself - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-05/driverless-droid-racing-car-university-competition/8678650)
They're a bit small. No luggage space.
Oh, and the best quote from the article:

"One of the most famous quotes of mechatronics engineers is, 'I swear it was working a second ago'," laughs Mr Capurso


It did happen in Adelaide.
Twitter (https://twitter.com/7NewsAdelaide/status/662502973541486593)

[Mick_Marsh]

Driverless cars 'to save thousands of lives' as trial set for NSW - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-02/trial-to-bring-driverless-cars-to-nsw/8766110)

[cuppabillytea]

Driverless cars can not be said to have saved lives until it is reflected in the Accident Statistics.

[Mick_Marsh]

Driverless cars can not be said to have saved lives until it is reflected in the Accident Statistics.
Yep. We know there have already been deaths in driverless cars.

[DiscoMick]

Carsales prepares for a brave new world of car ownership (http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/media-and-marketing/carsales-prepares-for-a-brave-new-world-of-car-ownership-20170809-gxsiqj.html)

Carsales prepares for autonomous vehicles.

[DiscoMick]

I suppose autonomous vehicles are unlikely to have an argument at the pub and then drive off in a huff and kill a mother and daughter.
Police warn against driving while emotional, after mum and daughter killed Police warn against driving while emotional, after mother and daughter killed in car crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2voOK5J) - via @abcnews

[Eevo]

i cant wait for the autonomous v8 supercars to race around the track.

[incisor]

I suppose autonomous vehicles are unlikely to have an argument at the pub and then drive off in a huff and kill a mother and daughter.
Police warn against driving while emotional, after mum and daughter killed Police warn against driving while emotional, after mother and daughter killed in car crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2voOK5J) - via @abcnews
The gene pool will adapt...

[cuppabillytea]

If the Police don't want us to drive cranky, they should stay well out of sight.

Incidentally, at least one Auto Manufacturer has stated that the software in their Autonomous vehicles will be written to put the lives of it's occupants above all else. Sounds good,,,,,,Or does it?
That means If a Heavy Vehicle blows a tyre and is heading for one of these vehicles, and the only escape rout is through a group of innocent bystanders on the grassy knoll beside the road, then that vehicle will drive through the innocent bystanders. If a human drivers do that, they are prosecuted for manslaughter.
Will the CEOs of Auto Manufacturing Companies be prosecuted for manslaughter in such cases? IMV the should be. Such arrogance beggers belief.

[cuppabillytea]

On the subject of the accident: The Victims vehicle was exiting the driveway onto a dead straight, divided two lanes /side road, with a clear view into the distance of 1.8 Kilometres and a speed limit of 100 KpH. The Commodore came to rest 80 to 90 Meters from the driveway.(from what I can tell).
Why is this accident blamed on the Commodore driver? How can anyone ( who isn't a complete arsehole ) assume, that the driver of the Commodore was in any particular frame of mind at all? Given that the victims had been to a parent teacher interview, might they not have been in a distracted state of mind?
The whole story has the taste of complete and utter CRAP​ to me.

[Mick_Marsh]

If the Police don't want us to drive cranky, they should stay well out of sight.

Incidentally, at least one Auto Manufacturer has stated that the software in their Autonomous vehicles will be written to put the lives of it's occupants above all else. Sounds good,,,,,,Or does it?
That means If a Heavy Vehicle blows a tyre and is heading for one of these vehicles, and the only escape rout is through a group of innocent bystanders on the grassy knoll beside the road, then that vehicle will drive through the innocent bystanders. If a human drivers do that, they are prosecuted for manslaughter.
Will the CEOs of Auto Manufacturing Companies be prosecuted for manslaughter in such cases? IMV the should be. Such arrogance beggers belief.
The law as currently proposed, the passenger who has no control over the car whatsoever, is liable.

[cuppabillytea]

The law as currently proposed, the passenger who has no control over the car whatsoever, is liable.
You won't get me in one if that is the case.
I see the reason for this: Tell me I'm a cynic but I reckon that each case that is prosecuted will result in an acquittal, on the grounds that the passenger had no control. The mater having been resolved will result in no further action. The passenger is off scot free. The auto manufacturer is off scot free and the pore sole who was clobbered is dead and his family is back at home teaching their grand mother to suck eggs.
It will be a sad indictment on our society if the Manufacturers are allowed to get away with this.

[Mick_Marsh]

You won't get me in one if that is the case.
I see the reason for this: Tell me I'm a cynic but I reckon that each case that is prosecuted will result in an acquittal, on the grounds that the passenger had no control. The mater having been resolved will result in no further action. The passenger is off scot free. The auto manufacturer is off scot free and the pore sole who was clobbered is dead and his family is back at home teaching their grand mother to suck eggs.
It will be a sad indictment on our society if the Manufacturers are allowed to get away with this.
Acquittal from criminal action, maybe, but civil actin will look a percentage of blame. The argument being, if the occupant hadn't been in the car, the car wouldn't have been there.
I would like to see blame put on the supplier, who can then blame the manufacturer, who can then blame the designer.
I would love to own an autonomous vehicle but not if I could potentially lose my house over something I have no control over that is built and designed by others.

[tact]

Originally Posted by AndyG https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/211485-cyclists-post2416758.html#post2416758)
i cant wait for the **** ing autonomous vehicles thread.





I fail to see the value in autonomous ****ing vehicles

[bee utey]

You won't get me in one if that is the case.
I see the reason for this: Tell me I'm a cynic but I reckon that each case that is prosecuted will result in an acquittal, on the grounds that the passenger had no control. The mater having been resolved will result in no further action. The passenger is off scot free. The auto manufacturer is off scot free and the pore sole who was clobbered is dead and his family is back at home teaching their grand mother to suck eggs.
It will be a sad indictment on our society if the Manufacturers are allowed to get away with this.

You've not heard of insurance? No matter who's to blame in an AV accident, if the vehicle is fully insured let the insurance companies fight the battle. To get an AV legally registered in any state the insurance angle will have to be worked out very thoroughly well in advance. Nothing for the consumer to fret over unless they dangerously modify their AV themselves.

[tact]

They haven't fixed GPS's yet.
[...]
Mine is often telling me to go through wheat paddocks.
I am very interested to see how autonomous vehicles cope with the complexity of our roads but I also would like to see the relevant laws in place and understood before they are allowed on our roads.

Just for fun, at the end of a camping trip in the Malaysian jungles I fired up a GPS app (Waze) and selected "Home" as destination and got the attached screenshot. Was amused at the result. (Cant find a road! heh - not surprised considering where I was!) [biggrin]
127662

[cuppabillytea]

You've not heard of insurance? No matter who's to blame in an AV accident, if the vehicle is fully insured let the insurance companies fight the battle. To get an AV legally registered in any state the insurance angle will have to be worked out very thoroughly well in advance. Nothing for the consumer to fret over unless they dangerously modify their AV themselves.

Oh I've heard if insurance all right. It's taken four years to get to somewhere near the end of that tunnel for my hapless Brother In Law. He was cleaned up on his motorcycle, as he turned left into his driveway, by an Arsehole texting on a phone.
His left leg is now not much better than something to prop him up. It gives him constant pain. He can no longer do the job he loves.
If he wasn't a tough, resourceful, stoic fighter he would have necked himself by now.
It's a clear cut case. The lawyers have had a field day. The Insurance Company has been making money on his money.
He himself is going to be constantly told time and time again that he is not fit for purpose, until he accepts that a desk job is all he'll get.
How long does anyone imagine a civil case will take if Distributor, Designe,r Manufacturer, and Occupant are all in the Defendants box pointing fingers at one another?

[Mick_Marsh]

You've not heard of insurance? No matter who's to blame in an AV accident, if the vehicle is fully insured let the insurance companies fight the battle. To get an AV legally registered in any state the insurance angle will have to be worked out very thoroughly well in advance. Nothing for the consumer to fret over unless they dangerously modify their AV themselves.
Ah! I see. So they put the insurance company in jail for causing the death of an innocent bystander.

[bee utey]

Ah! I see. So they put the insurance company in jail for causing the death of an innocent bystander.

Good grief, only poor people go to jail for running down a bystander.

Kapunda Road Royal Commission - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapunda_Road_Royal_Commission)

[DiscoMick]

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Would you get on a pilotless plane? - Would you get on a pilotless plane? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40860911)

If human error causes 80 percent of plane crashes, could autonomous planes be any worse?

[Tins]

I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Would you get on a pilotless plane? - Would you get on a pilotless plane? - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40860911)

If human error causes 80 percent of plane crashes, could autonomous planes be any worse?

It's interesting that you link to something posted by the BBC, that links to A survey by financial services firm UBS. What would a financial services know about aviation, far less their likely audience?

Pretty much every aspect of commercial aviation, and ALL Military jet fighter operation, is computer controlled. Anyone who thinks that Tom Cruise could fly an F35 without the computer is nuts.

We get in pilotless planes all the time, but we have pilots there in case. The Shinkansen trains are famous for their precision, but they never leave a station without a driver.

There is a reason for this, and it is illustrated dramatically in the recent film "Sully". It's a great film, if you haven't seen it. It is also very much a true story. I wonder if a computer could have made the assessments, and the decisions, that Captain Chelsey Sullenberger made, in the time frame he made them, and saved the lives of the 151 lives on that aircraft.

I don't need a pilot for when things are going right, but I sure as hell want one for when things have gone wrong. Computers are wonderful things, but they are completely incapable of predicting the future, as climate "science" demonstrates on a daily basis. So, if the aviation industry brings in pilotless planes, sure, get on.

You first.

[JDNSW]

And then there were the violent manoeuvres undertaken by an Airbus in WA a couple of years ago, which I think were traced to a software issue, situation apparently recovered by the pilots.

[cuppabillytea]

And then there were the violent manoeuvres undertaken by an Airbus in WA a couple of years ago, which I think were traced to a software issue, situation apparently recovered by the pilots.

And that was not the first incident.

[Tins]

And then there were the violent manoeuvres undertaken by an Airbus in WA a couple of years ago, which I think were traced to a software issue, situation apparently recovered by the pilots.

Funny word, 'software'. I understand it almost perfectly. What it's proponents DON'T understand is that when it goes wrong, the results are often NOT soft.

You often hear the term 'computer error'. I'm going to give a free kick to the computer lovers here. The error isn't the computer. Fine. We get that. The error is the person that did the programming. OK?, is that right? OK, next question: who or what replaces the programmer? A better one? Who decides?

Or, do we let a computer decide the programming of the computer? So, who programs that computer?

You get ( I hope ) the picture. It goes on and on in a loop. The only thing that would save us from this idiocy would be an AI. Anyone here confident of that happening? ( Yes, you on CA may be, but I'll bet you can't prove it. Too caught up in lauding SA's generators. Whatever works, eh?).

[cuppabillytea]

As i've said before, there is at least one Manufacturer who's intention it is, to program their cars to save their occupants, in the event that their AV has to avoid an accident. This will happen even if it means taking innocent lives in process.
Think about the implications of this. No Vehicle programmed in such a way should ever be allowed on Australian roads.
It should me mandatory that an AV be programmed to save innocent lives rather than those of its occupants.
The arrogance of such arsehole manufacturers is staggering to say the the least. It does not matter how unlikely such an event might be, no vehicle should take an innocent life.

[Mick_Marsh]

As i've said before, there is at least one Manufacturer who's intention it is, to program their cars to save their occupants, in the event that their AV has to avoid an accident. This will happen even if it means taking innocent lives in process.
Think about the implications of this. No Vehicle programmed in such a way should ever be allowed on Australian roads.
It should me mandatory that an AV be programmed to save innocent lives rather than those of its occupants.
The arrogance of such arsehole manufacturers is staggering to say the the least. It does not matter how unlikely such an event might be, no vehicle should take an innocent life.
So, you have decided the occupants are lot innocent.

I only point this out to illustrate the complexity of the situation.

I agree with you in that they should not be allowed on public roads. At least not until the legalities have been sorted out to protect the occupants of the vehicles and third parties.

[cuppabillytea]

So, you have decided the occupants are lot innocent.

I only point this out to illustrate the complexity of the situation.

I agree with you in that they should not be allowed on public roads. At least not until the legalities have been sorted out to protect the occupants of the vehicles and third parties.
Thanks Mick.

In the event that a Vehicle has no driver the Vehicle becomes the Nominal Driver. Yes or no?
The Vehicle then, must assume the moral, ethical and legal imperatives that are placed on a Human Driver. Yes or no?
The occupants of the Vehicle have either entered it voluntarily or have been put in it by a higher authority. Yes or no?
The Vehicle is then directed to undertake a journey, either by the occupants or a higher authority. Yes or no?
During the journey the vehicle is forced to avoid a runaway truck in order to save its occupants. Unfortunately the only path available is through a group of bystanders in a park 10 Meters from the road who are all killed.
The Vehicle had no choice but to do what it was programmed to do. It could have been programmed to spare the bystanders and chance it with the truck.
Knowing that the Vehicle will make the choice it did, makes the voluntary occupants or the higher authority guilty of manslaughter. Yes or no?
The Manufacturer having designed and marketed the Vehicle with this feature also bears a heavy responsibility. Yes or no?

[Mick_Marsh]

Thanks Mick.

In the event that a Vehicle has no driver the Vehicle becomes the Nominal Driver. Yes or no?
The Vehicle then, must assume the moral, ethical and legal imperatives that are placed on a Human Driver. Yes or no?
The occupants of the Vehicle have either entered it voluntarily or have been put in it by a higher authority. Yes or no?
The Vehicle is then directed to undertake a journey, either by the occupants or a higher authority. Yes or no?
During the journey the vehicle is forced to avoid a runaway truck in order to save its occupants. Unfortunately the only path available is through a group of bystanders in a park 10 Meters from the road who are all killed.
The Vehicle had no choice but to do what it was programmed to do. It could have been programmed to spare the bystanders and chance it with the truck.
Knowing that the Vehicle will make the choice it did, makes the voluntary occupants or the higher authority guilty of manslaughter. Yes or no?
The Manufacturer having designed and marketed the Vehicle with this feature also bears a heavy responsibility. Yes or no?
All good questions to be argued in court.

Of course, the driverless truck careering into the autonomous car was programmed to take out the car rather than the pedestrians.

Oh, and the accident was caused by a paper mache roo someone left in the middle of the road.

[austastar]

Hi,
Perhaps the vehicle with the software algorithm providing greater protective factor for its occupants should contribute a higher insurance premium to the common pool?
Cheers

[Wraithe]

All good questions to be argued in court.

Of course, the driverless truck careering into the autonomous car was programmed to take out the car rather than the pedestrians.

Oh, and the accident was caused by a paper mache roo someone left in the middle of the road.

Oh Mick, they are all court arguments...

But I have a solution for both arguments, autonomous vehicles on a track, like tram/train tracks... Not on roads...

The reason;
An individual can be taken to court and found responsible for there actions...
An Autonomous vehicle is the product of research and production, no individual responsible thus no responsibility for there actions...
The idea of taking a manufacturer or the developer to court is ludicrous as there is no individual to be found responsible...

If you disagree, then think about James Hardy and Asbestosis... Not hard to find an example of no responsibility or avoiding such...

[DiscoMick]

I wouldn't get on an autonomous plane unless there was a backup pilot. Just saying.

[bee utey]

Oh Mick, they are all court arguments...

But I have a solution for both arguments, autonomous vehicles on a track, like tram/train tracks... Not on roads...

The reason;
An individual can be taken to court and found responsible for there actions...
An Autonomous vehicle is the product of research and production, no individual responsible thus no responsibility for there actions...
The idea of taking a manufacturer or the developer to court is ludicrous as there is no individual to be found responsible...

If you disagree, then think about James Hardy and Asbestosis... Not hard to find an example of no responsibility or avoiding such...

1. I'd like to see you sue an unlicenced, unregistered druggie and get any money out of him.

2. Big companies get sued all the time, if one vehicle fails there's a high likelihood of others failing. Lucrative fields of work for class action lawyers. Think VW for starters. Think Takata.

3. But the poor victim in all current and future accident scenarios will of course receive 2/10ths of eff all, that is a given. That's except for some primitive satisfaction of knowing that their injury has been revenged on a supposedly "guilty" individual. I'm sure that helps the healing process a lot. :bat:

[cuppabillytea]

I suppose my last sentence in post 192, should have been: The government which allowed this vehicle to be programmed to save it's occupants to the detriment of others has failed and also bears a heavy responsibility.

[Homestar]

Very interesting conversation going on here and I'm guessing the legal eagles all over the world are debating these and many more topics when it comes to legislating autonomous vehicles. Apart from India of course because they've already sorted the issue by banning them entirely.

[DiscoMick]

Companies are more likely to have money than individuals and so are more likely to be sued.

[Wraithe]

1. I'd like to see you sue an unlicenced, unregistered druggie and get any money out of him.

2. Big companies get sued all the time, if one vehicle fails there's a high likelihood of others failing. Lucrative fields of work for class action lawyers. Think VW for starters. Think Takata.

3. But the poor victim in all current and future accident scenarios will of course receive 2/10ths of eff all, that is a given. That's except for some primitive satisfaction of knowing that their injury has been revenged on a supposedly "guilty" individual. I'm sure that helps the healing process a lot. :bat:


Most of the context I referred to Bee Utey, is towards an individual being found responsible... Druggy/drunk etc can still be found responsible, and if that druggy/drunk is also wealthy, then once they are found responsible for their actions whilst driving, then a law suit can be paid...

Under the criminal/road codes, it dont matter your wealth/registration/license details.... Under those codes its based on accusing an individual, when it comes to charging a corporation or board of directors, well the PTY LTD comes into effect and like the recent charges over a mining company here in WA, 1 person took the rap and retired(they where already in the process) and the company copped a fine... If it had been an individual, it would have been time served behind bars....

Corporations with directors have a diminishing responsibility, the higher you go up the chain... The legislation may say otherwise but experience has shown that it is not the way it works...

PS, didnt think to point it out, latest "Air Bag" problem, company dissolved, airbag still killing... umm who can you sue there...I think it affects some 30% of cars in the US...Not sure on the exact figures but its massive..

[DiscoMick]

Job losses, hacking worries and ethical questions — but get used to driverless cars Driverless cars to bring job losses, hacking worries and ethical questions — but get used to them - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2wjN50d) - via @abcnews

[350RRC]

................
The Vehicle had no choice but to do what it was programmed to do. It could have been programmed to spare the bystanders and chance it with the truck............

AFAIK all the current autonomous systems will switch off and hand control over to the 'driver' in complex situations.

This 'driver' in the future might never have had to make a critical decision in a life and death driving situation because they have just sat back texting or looking at pron getting to the destination whilst being driven autonomously.

No real world experience, no experienced based decision making in a split second.

Anyone who has experienced the uselessness of some of the current generation of teens will know what this is about.

cheers, DL

[Homestar]

Interesting article - and the only conclusion I think manufacturers can come to if they say the 'driver' can be hands off. - Access Denied (https://www.motoring.com.au/paris-motor-show-audi-accepts-autonomous-liability-too-104063/)

Will be interesting to see their level 5 vehicles - no steering wheels or pedals - have a sleep in the back seat while being whisked to work - now that I'm up for... :)

Pretty sure I'll be retired from full time work by the time that happens though...

[DiscoMick]

I'll bet future sales contracts will include the buyer signing some sort of legal waiver against suing the manufacturer. Not sure if politicians will have the guts to stand up to the companies and protect the rights of the public though.

[Mick_Marsh]

Pretty sure I'll be retired from full time work by the time that happens though...
I'll be long dead by the time it happens.

I was driving through Hamilton a couple of weeks back. It was raining. The satnav signal was way off due to the weather. It had me a hundred metres or so north of where I was. If they can't get something as simple as a sat nav working properly, I don't think something as complex as an autonomous vehicle would cope unless you could take it out only on fine, sunny days.

[Homestar]

I'll bet future sales contracts will include the buyer signing some sort of legal waiver against suing the manufacturer. Not sure if politicians will have the guts to stand up to the companies and protect the rights of the public though.

I'm sure they'll try something to that effect, but at the end of the day they will still have to sell vehicles - using a clause like that would put off a lot of buyers. The legalities of it all are the single biggest sticking point I think when it comes to Autonomous vehicles.

Much water to flow under the bridge yet.

[Mick_Marsh]

I'll bet future sales contracts will include the buyer signing some sort of legal waiver against suing the manufacturer. Not sure if politicians will have the guts to stand up to the companies and protect the rights of the public though.
From what I understand, in this country it is not lawful to sign away your rights. A waiver of rights would not be valid in court.

[DiscoMick]

I think you're right that rights can't be signed away, but signing an agreement can be taken as a statement of intention which can stand up in court.

Here's an interesting startup. It's not for a car though, it's for a new form of transport.

Zoox is coming out of the shadows as it enters '''Godzilla mode''' (https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/zoox-is-coming-out-of-the-shadows-as-it-enters-godzilla-mode-20170915-gyie6f.html)

[cuppabillytea]

here's another one for the mind mincer: What will the after market tweakers get up to?

I can see it now.... "Make your AV the boss of the road. We can tune your guidance system to be more aggressive than your average Robot. You'll be sure to get there first."

[DiscoMick]

Or claiming to offer the best bullbar and body armour to protect against rogue AVs.

[Zeros]

...Or big brother deciding where you can or cannot drive! Based on your vehicle type, training or history! 😳🤡

Autonomous Vehicle special on ABC Catalyst tomorrow (Tuesday) night.

[tact]

One presumes that in a world where AVs are are the norm, it would be a natural next step to then set up an artificial neural network (ANN) of all the connected vehicles’ sensors and destinations - such that route decisions are made by an overarching remote intelligence.

[cuppabillytea]

Take me to your leader.

[Saitch]

Golly Gosh, you blokes! Next thing there'll be talk on autonomous bicycles!
Which raises the point. What about motor cycles. Couldn't you have fun on a bike playing with the AV external sensors[biggrin]

Not that I would, mind.

Steve

[Homestar]

One presumes that in a world where AVs are are the norm, it would be a natural next step to then set up an artificial neural network (ANN) of all the connected vehicles’ sensors and destinations - such that route decisions are made by an overarching remote intelligence.

There's a documentary about that - Terminator.

[vnx205]

Tonight's episode of "Catalyst" is on this topic.
8:30 ABC.

[DiscoMick]

Groups of vehicles have been linked together in trials. You just nose up to the last one and they all connect, like lemmings heading for the nearest cliff, I suppose.

[carjunkieanon]

I don't want an autonomous car. I genuinely enjoy driving, even in rubbish traffic, even if driving all day. It's relaxing. I like the experience. Would be very disappointed if they stop making real cars or force them off the road. Glad I'll be dead before that comes to pass.

[DiscoMick]

Self-driving cars could change your life within six years Transport as a service: Self-driving cars could change your life within six years - RN - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2xCbNgd) - via @abcnews

[DiscoMick]

James Dyson to invest £2.5bn on 'radically different' electric car

James Dyson to invest PS2.5bn on 'radically different' electric car | Technology | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/sep/26/james-dyson-electric-car-2020?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Mick_Marsh]

Self-driving cars could change your life within six years Transport as a service: Self-driving cars could change your life within six years - RN - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2xCbNgd) - via @abcnews

Did you actually read the article?

Autonomous systems still struggle with irregular interactions — such as cyclists — and Professor Waller suggests they're likely to be deployed in a more limited capacity, at least at first.
The cyclists are going to be happy about that.


"They're looking more at campus environments, or airports," Professor Waller says.
Well-mapped environments, in other words, with relatively low traffic loads.
Yep. Plonk them where there are lots of cyclists. Good move.


But he thinks on thing we're likely to start seeing autonomous-only lanes soon, so that drivers are introduced to the concept.
I know, let's put them in the cycle lanes.


Probably the place where we'll see autonomous take off first is long haul freight," he says.
I've not seen much long haul freight within a university campus or airport.

"They're looking more at ........... Well-mapped environments, in other words, with relatively low traffic loads.
That excludes anywhere outside the CBD of any town or city.

Real pie in the sky stuff. They're decades, centuries off.
I want my level 5 autonomous vehicle now!

[Homestar]

Even Audi - who have level 3 autonomous vehicles ready to go and are working on level 4 and 5 vehicles now say that level 5 vehicles are 20 to 30 years away.

The introduction will be gradual and take decades. I do hope I'm around to see it though - would love to see it come to fruition. The only thing I want to ensure is that we are still allowed to drive non autonomous vehicle whenever and where ever we like but as a day to day car, I'd love one even though I do enjoy drivng, there's times when I'd love to kick back and let my car do it for me. :)

Then there's the countries that have and will ban them outright...

[DiscoMick]

Did you actually read the article?

The cyclists are going to be happy about that.


Yep. Plonk them where there are lots of cyclists. Good move.


I know, let's put them in the cycle lanes.


I've not seen much long haul freight within a university campus or airport.

That excludes anywhere outside the CBD of any town or city.

Real pie in the sky stuff. They're decades, centuries off.
I want my level 5 autonomous vehicle now!
Yep I read it, that's why I posted it.
I expect controlled environments will be where they are first used. An example could be Brisbane's busway network, but the government would first have to improve the connections with normal roads by blocking cars from bus-only lanes.
Some motorways might be suitable for autonomous or remote controlled trucks.
Trains are another obvious option.

[Mick_Marsh]

This came up in the newsfeed section:
Automakers struggle with the future in Los Angeles | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-la-preview/automakers-struggle-with-the-future-in-los-angeles-idUSKBN1DQ0HN?il=0)

From the article:

For now, self-driving cars are not ready for consumers, and sales of the battery-powered vehicles demanded by California regulators remain marginal and money-losing. Profits are generated by gasoline-fueled sport utility vehicles and trucks.

The consumers have spoken. They don't want battery vehicles.
How long can these carmakers survive selling them at a loss?

[Zeros]

I like driving my Land Rover. Above all I like the freedom to choose, wander, alter my route without notice...to Rove.

Autonomous vehicles will remove this aspect of 'driving'. Approved route plans and route monitoring will destroy the freedom of driving a car.

I like doing things myself.

Safety? If you were going to lose your licence for life for having an accident caused by phone use I reckon no one would touch their phones while driving.

Would any of us fly without pilots in the plane? Auto pilot is a tool, not a replacement for human responsibility.

Without faith in other humans to do the right thing this would be a world of anarchy based on apathy. Our litigious society here in Australia is already preventing much freedom of expression and causing people to defer all responsibility.

Autonomous vehicles will cause as many problems as they solve. I'm not in favour.

[LRT]

I don't want a battery/hybrid vehicle. What I want is a big slow revving diesel V8 with a nice sound. [biggrin] Not a little tiny lawnmower engine that has to be turbo/supercharged to the max just pull more than a balloon on a string...

QUOTE=Mick_Marsh;2745518]This came up in the newsfeed section:
Automakers struggle with the future in Los Angeles | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-la-preview/automakers-struggle-with-the-future-in-los-angeles-idUSKBN1DQ0HN?il=0)

From the article:


The consumers have spoken. They don't want battery vehicles.
How long can these carmakers survive selling them at a loss?[/QUOTE]

[Classic88]

I don't really understand the argument that not having to drive the car means people will no longer want to own it. Vehicles you don't have to drive yourself and will pick you up from a place of your choosing before dropping you off at your destination have existed before cars themselves. They're called cabs.

A combination of public transport and taxis would probably suit most people and be cheaper than owning a car once you factor in purchase, running costs, fuel, taxes and depreciation. So what if you can hail a self-driving car with an app? You can walk outside and flag down a taxi and you don't have to drive that either. You own a car because you can keep all your junk in it. I don't have kids but I imagine that level of convenience is indispensable once you have a family.

There may be a reduction in second car ownership but that's all.

[Homestar]

I don't want a battery/hybrid vehicle. What I want is a big slow revving diesel V8 with a nice sound. [biggrin] Not a little tiny lawnmower engine that has to be turbo/supercharged to the max just pull more than a balloon on a string...

QUOTE=Mick_Marsh;2745518]This came up in the newsfeed section:
Automakers struggle with the future in Los Angeles | Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autoshow-la-preview/automakers-struggle-with-the-future-in-los-angeles-idUSKBN1DQ0HN?il=0)

From the article:


The consumers have spoken. They don't want battery vehicles.
How long can these carmakers survive selling them at a loss?

When that’s all you can buy, I suppose we’ll have to. Most manufacturers have said they’ll stop making conventional vehicles at some stage - no idea how that will pan out for them to be honest. As long as someone keeps making parts for old Land Rovers I’ll be right. If work buys me an electric or autonomous vehicle for work, that’s fine -when the battery goes flat I’ll just sit there waiting for the RACV to come out and charge it up. Not sure how I’d do the long Country drives like I do now - maybe we’ll have to go back to taking days to get from point a to point b rather than hours. Work would love that if I had to make a trip to Swan Hill or similar from Melbourne an overnighter. 😂

[Zeros]

"I don't really understand the argument that not having to drive the car means people will no longer want to own it." It's not an argument, it's a preference.

This thread's not about electric vehicles. It's about autonomous vehicles.

...just wait and see what will happen with road tolls, route planning, monitoring, other charges, gold class roads $$, road not on auto map issues! etc.

[PhilipA]

My take is that European cars like Renaults etc will become completely uncompetitive to export due to all having to be hybrids, so Japanese, Korean and Chinese cars will increase in market share throughout the World other than Europe as they do not have silly half baked laws. IMHO it will be uneconomic for the Europeans to develop new non hybrid models due to the small volumes.

Undoubtedly the JKC manufacturers will make hybrids also as they will have the base volume in non hybrids to afford to develop hybrids for the Euro market.
People will still buy luxury European cars as it will add "virtue signalling " to their justification. LOL.

Meanwhile the USA will still buy trucks and so will OZ .
Be prepared for even more expensive Land Rovers.
Regards Philip A

[Classic88]

"I don't really understand the argument that not having to drive the car means people will no longer want to own it." It's not an argument, it's a preference.

This thread's not about electric vehicles. It's about autonomous vehicles.

...just wait and see what will happen with road tolls, route planning, monitoring, other charges, gold class roads $$, road not on auto map issues! etc.




Not sure I understand your reply, sorry. I didn't mention electric vehicles at all. I was addressing the common prediction that autonomous cars will lead to a reduction in car ownership as a whole.

[Zeros]

Not sure I understand your reply, sorry. I didn't mention electric vehicles at all. I was addressing the common prediction that autonomous cars will lead to a reduction in car ownership as a whole.

Hey no probs, you're probably right re reducing car ownership - I wouldn't want to own an autonomous car. ...it's not an argument, just differing points of view.

My next comment about elec vehicles was separate, re others posting about electric vehicles. Autonomous doesn't necessarily mean electric or vice versa.

Cheers

[bee utey]

Autonomous cars will appeal to those people who don't want to share their ride with an overworked and underpaid barely literate immigrant doing the piloting. Limousines with a liveried chauffeur will cater for the customers who want the human touch.

[lyonsy]

Autonomous vechile's are all ready better at driving then a large % of the population, and i wouldent mind one i could also drive as driving 6+ hours to see the rents would be much nicer if after work i could load the car up head off and have a sleep on the way their.

Car ownership is all ready on a downward trend in Europe because they have decent public transport and cost's of owning a car are so high and fuel so expensive, this is for britian
In 1994, 48 per cent of 17-to-20-year-olds and 75 per cent of 21-to-29-year-olds held driving licences. By last year, as the recently published National Travel Survey showed, these figures had fallen to 31 and 66 per cent

so place's of large open area's will still have individual's owning cars but high population center's that have decent public transport, or autonomous cars that are cost effective to use rather then owning your own one will see declining numbers of vehicle's sold.
also more people are holidaying O/S or interstate with air travel being so cheap now then driving their so that takes out anther reason to own a car.

but where this will hit hardest is autonomous transport, if you own a transport companies your wet dream is a truck that doesn't stop unless its loading or unloading, no sleeping no rest break's, no weekends off, no sick days and also 30% of the worlds workforce out of job, and they all reayd can do, its just a matter of who is responsible for an accident the owner or the manufacture of the autonomous truck that programmed it to save its self rather then avoid Timmy who walked out in front of it.

[Mick_Marsh]

Autonomous vechile's are all ready better at driving then a large % of the population, and i wouldent mind one i could also drive as driving 6+ hours to see the rents would be much nicer if after work i could load the car up head off and have a sleep on the way their.
If only that were the case.

What is coming out is autonomous vehicles won't stop deaths from motor accidents. They will merely reduce deaths from motor accidents.
The other thing is the person in charge of the vehicle (formerly driver now occupant) will be responsible for any accident the vehicle is involved in.
The person in charge of the vehicle (formerly driver now occupant) will still require a drivers licence and would be required to be in charge of (be awake) the vehicle at all times.

I'll see if I can find where I read this.

[PhilipA]

I look forward to the day that semis will drive in convoy in the left lane of expressways at 100Kmh and the second will not immediately try to pass the first on every slight incline where the first drops 0.1kmh because he has a slightly heavier load.

On second thought while I was writing this, what happens when the trucks have different gearing , different loads, different power. I can foresee this convoy being completely split on hills when the first slows , the second reacts but cannot keep up due to gear changes etc.

Or maybe they all have to be Tesla trucks with equal loads. LOL

Or maybe the second will try to pass the first and so on. "plus Change plus le meme chose"
Regards Philip A

[LRT]

The load of the vehicle will always be a factor regardless of the propulsion system.

The difficult thing with the 100kmh speed limited trucks is you can get up beside the other truck but run out of room to pass as you cannot increase your speed. Of course you can get booked for as little as 1kmh over the speed limit especially in Melbourne now so it is a moot point. I think there is more of a problem with cars that have to be 'the one in front' and then slow down to 80 once they've overtaken you whilst you were driving at 100.

Driverless cars will no doubt make it very difficult to speed except on overrun depending on how presise the control system is.

[carjunkieanon]

Hmmm. Actually, I might be seeing something 'good' (although that's a questionable word) developing here.

At present, if I'm driving and I crash, I'm at fault for killing whoever.
In the future, if I'm sleeping in my autonomous car and it crashes and kills someone, I can argue the manufacturer is to blame! They cop the fine and I walk away.

Hmmm. Is that a reason to buy an autonomous car....?

[Zeros]

Hmmm. Actually, I might be seeing something 'good' (although that's a questionable word) developing here.

At present, if I'm driving and I crash, I'm at fault for killing whoever.
In the future, if I'm sleeping in my autonomous car and it crashes and kills someone, I can argue the manufacturer is to blame! They cop the fine and I walk away.

Hmmm. Is that a reason to buy an autonomous car....?

No. That's the beginning of the end. The age of machines, true dystopia and pointless humanity.

[Mick_Marsh]

Hmmm. Actually, I might be seeing something 'good' (although that's a questionable word) developing here.

At present, if I'm driving and I crash, I'm at fault for killing whoever.
In the future, if I'm sleeping in my autonomous car and it crashes and kills someone, I can argue the manufacturer is to blame! They cop the fine and I walk away.

Hmmm. Is that a reason to buy an autonomous car....?
Great logic, sadly, the law will be written in such a way that you are still to blame.

[Zeros]

Nothing about abdicating responsibility is good. ...don't forget that one might die in the crash themselves. Who is to blame won't matter then! But if one wasn't asleep at the wheel the crash could have been avoided.

I vote for Autonomous drivers!

[lyonsy]

If only that were the case.

What is coming out is autonomous vehicles won't stop deaths from motor accidents. They will merely reduce deaths from motor accidents.
The other thing is the person in charge of the vehicle (formerly driver now occupant) will be responsible for any accident the vehicle is involved in.
The person in charge of the vehicle (formerly driver now occupant) will still require a drivers licence and would be required to be in charge of (be awake) the vehicle at all times.

I'll see if I can find where I read this.


that is the case atm as a autonomous system is not allowed with out a supervising driver making sure the autonomous system is operating correctly.

But where it gets interesting is when it becomes fully autonomous ie i dont ride in the front i am in the back and not in control of the car and also wont require a licencee as you are not operating it you just own it and an incident occur's, the at fault party is then the software designer not the owner and this is the main reason why autonomous cars are not allowed un supervised, because is it the manufacture that installed the program, is it the company that designed the program, or is it the designer or designer's of the individual part of that program that failed that is responsible, then their is hacking prevention issue's as well.

also dont forget the autonomous system does not need to be 100% perfect and fool proof it only has to be better then human and it all ready is other then elite driver's and then they only better it for an hour maybe 2 after that fatigue sets in and the computer win's little lone after 24 hours of continual operation which it will be able to do

[tact]

Great logic, sadly, the law will be written in such a way that you are still to blame.

Wouldn't there be a precedent in place? Many cities have unmanned trains/light rail. Who would be at fault should an accident occur that may have been avoided were a human driver in control?

[Mick_Marsh]

Uber-style driverless cars set for Perth as part of international trial - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-29/uber-style-driverless-cars-to-be-tested-in-perth-in-global-trial/9207120)

Tree interesting quotes from the article:

and the RAC will also have a human chaperone onboard, capable of overriding the computer systems.
If driverless cars are that good, why do they need a human to potentially take control?

RAC WA's CEO Terry Agnew said it was hoped driverless technology could one day eliminate the 90 per cent of road crashes that were caused by human error.
So, they are still going to be involved in accidents. They're backing down on their unrealistic claims now. (Read earlier parts of this thread.)

The autonomous shuttle bus trials in South Perth required over 700 changes to legislation and regulations before they could proceed.
Yep, legislation. They're going to legislate the creators of these autonomous vehicles cannot be held accountable for the accidents. If they were, they wouldn't build them.
They'll legislate the passenger in the autonomous vehicle will be held accountable, after all, the vehicle wouldn't have been there had the passenger not wanted to use the vehicle.

[bee utey]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/1048.jpg

[Zeros]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/11/1048.jpg

Autonomous JLR skywalker 2033! [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

I assume the owner of the autonomous vehicle who took the decision to put it on the road would be held responsible. The manufacturer would argue it was not being operated according to manufacturer's specifications.

[Eevo]

I assume the owner of the autonomous vehicle who took the decision to put it on the road would be held responsible. The manufacturer would argue it was not being operated according to manufacturer's specifications.


if the operator has zero input, are they still an operator?

[bee utey]

Anyone leasing or owning an autonomous vehicle would do well to read all the fine print on the insurance policy before setting out for the first time. You won't be able to "drive" one without a comprehensive insurance policy spelling out the liability cover. Who is to "blame" is quite irrelevant if it's covered in full.