Help with 130 tyre sizes, wheel offset etc

[sjl81]

Hi all,


Ive been having issues with the wheel set up on my 130 defender


I purchased it with the following setup:


aftermarket steel wheels


15" diameter
approx. 8.5 inch depth
offset of approx. -3mm
30mm wheel spacers
maxxis bighorn 33/12.5r15
aftermarket wider flares
2" suspension lift


I am getting a lot of rubbing when going over bumps, presumably on the flares.


I also had a major incident when on the tracks the wheel seemed to get caught up on the inner side of the wheel arch which resulted in the drag link bending like a banana! :censored:


Have replaced the drag and tie rod with heavy duty and now I need to sort out the wheels.


I would like to keep 33inch, and was looking at getting a 10.5 inch width, but don't want to spend all that money on a new set of tyres only to get the same issue.


If I remove the wheel spacers as I don't particularly want to keep them, can I get away with 33/10.5/r15 with the offset I have on the aftermarket wheels?


Any help much appreciated guys.

[Shingleback]

The old which tyre question hey? :D in my opinion, **** off the fat tyres and 15 rims and get a set of factory steel 16" 130 wolf rims and 255/85/16 tyres. Either BFG km2, toyo open country or maxis make that size. the tyres are slightly bigger than 33" and suit the defender. Some do find they can rub on full lock and can rub the rear spring mounts, but solution is get offset changed or buy aftermarket rims with about zero offset. the factory rims are way stronger.
Cheers

[paulak]

Gday,
Tyres as above but i prefer a 0 offset rim.
Paul.

[sjl81]

well there isn't an open money pot I can dig into, so replacing both the rims and tyres are out.


If I'm understanding what you are saying, my 15 inch rims which are approx. -3mm offset, which is as near as damn it to zero as you suggest, with a 33/10.5 (only 1/2 inch wider than your suggested 255/85r16) should be ok? Or will that 1/2 inch make a massive difference?

[frantic]

You could alway go the other way and put on wider flares?
Apt, among others on here supply them.
This way you have the better stability of a wider footprint, without having to buy the wheels. Yes ,before other lawyers come in I know spacers are illegal here, but their legal in the U.k.
With the current setup your at about -33 offsett which means you could fit 35in rubber in the future. I have factory alloys with 30mm spacers and 255/85 tyres which rub the rear spring mount at full articulation, but it's much more stable than with the standard offsett. With your -3mm wheels and removing spacers you would be similar to my 110 so the tyres should only rub spring mount with one side of the rear fully down , other pushed up.

[sjl81]

You could alway go the other way and put on wider flares?
Apt, among others on here supply them.
This way you have the better stability of a wider footprint, without having to buy the wheels. Yes ,before other lawyers come in I know spacers are illegal here, but their legal in the U.k.
With the current setup your at about -33 offsett which means you could fit 35in rubber in the future. I have factory alloys with 30mm spacers and 255/85 tyres which rub the rear spring mount at full articulation, but it's much more stable than with the standard offsett. With your -3mm wheels and removing spacers you would be similar to my 110 so the tyres should only rub spring mount with one side of the rear fully down , other pushed up.


The truck already has extra wide flares, but I think because the wheels are so wide and pushed out from the hub so far, they are still rubbing them when going over bumps. More so when the wheels are turned rather than traveling in a straight line. Maybe I'm concerned about this when I don't really need to be however it is annoying me.
Also as I said the front wheel seemed to get caught up on the inner side of the arch when it was pushed fully up causing the drag link to bend. It was exerting so much pressure that it twisted the cab somewhat so much so I couldn't open my door to get out of the vehicle. On full lock there is minor rubbing to the control arms. I cant feel it but there is slight scuffing visible. The combination of all the above is why I want to go a little narrower.
Am I going to benefit by keeping the spacers if I drop to a 10.5 width? I just worry about the legality of them :angel:

[quaddrive]

the spacers are illegal.

I'd go either 255/85r16 or for more widely available size and a little more width 285/75r16. Both of these are similar in diam. with the 255/85r16 being marginally taller.

The 255/85 will fit on a standard rim with some spring perch rubbing. the 285/75 will need wider rims to be legal and to prevent rubbing also.

I run 285/75r16 tyres on 16x8 +3mm offset rims.

Cheers

[MLD]

12.5" wide rubber is the imperial equivalent to a 315 metric. Your rim combo is +\- neg 33 offset. Most people with a 315/75 or 285/75 rubber use a neg 25 rim. Without seeing your rubber in its travel through the arc you might be catching the panel or flare simply by the extra 8mm of offset and 12.5" rubber.

10.5 is the imperial equivalent to a 255/85 so you should be fine with the neg 3 offset of the rim. The 3mm won't make a difference.

MLD

[Dozer Dan]

I use 33x12.5x15 on 10" rims with -32mm offset. Your offset would be similar with the spacers considered.
This is in my opinion the best setup on a Defender. Looks good too!

On a standard Defender there should be no rubbing. Standard wheels measure 32".

You might want to check if the springs are sagging or where exactly the tyres are rubbing. No point in buying stuff you don't need to replace.

[sjl81]

I use 33x12.5x15 on 10" rims with -32mm offset. Your offset would be similar with the spacers considered.
This is in my opinion the best setup on a Defender. Looks good too!

On a standard Defender there should be no rubbing. Standard wheels measure 32".

You might want to check if the springs are sagging or where exactly the tyres are rubbing. No point in buying stuff you don't need to replace.



Thanks Dan, I didn't think about an issue with the springs.


Does anyone know the measurements for standard spring height on the 130?


I've measured and mine are as follows:


front driver 265mm
front passenger 270mm
rear driver 370
rear passenger 370


The springs are Old man emu 751 at the front and Old man emu 754 at the rear. The front springs have a fair bit of surface rust, unsure as to the age of them but previous owner owned from new, so if he replaced at new then theoretically could be up to 13 years old.


Do the above measurements seem right?

[BadCo.]

Not sure about a 130, but for a 110...


Ride Height

The best way to measure your lift is to measure your spring heights with the vehicle parked on level ground, measure from top to bottom of the rear of the front spring, and the same for the rear spring,with quality springs you will find that the drivers side is always slightly taller.

STD 90/110 FRONT SPRING measures 260mm +/- 5 mm
The REAR SPRING should be around 300 mm +/- 10mm

STD Disco/RRc FRONT SPRING measures 250 mm +/- 5 mm
The REAR SPRING should be around 300 mm +/- 10mm

These measurements are what i have taken over the years to calculate what lift
you have got or haven't got.

From the standard measurements you can calculate what lift you have got.

Hope this will help what you need.

GWYN LEWIS

Sent from my Nexus 4 using AULRO mobile app

[sjl81]

Thanks, I too found those but its annoying I cant find data for the 130. If it is the case that the 130 is the same as the 110 then there definitely isn't the 2" lift that there should be at the front, and theres more than 2" lift at the rear.


Having said that apparently even with standard suspension other people are running 33x12.5 tyres without rubbing issues.

[BadCo.]

According to my spreadsheet your springs have the following specs:

Old Man Emu 110 Front 751 225lbs 390mm

Old Man Emu 110 Rear 754 420lbs 435mm

So you have 30mm lift in the front and 40mm lift in the rear at a guess.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using AULRO mobile app

[MLD]

factory D130 static (loaded) coil height is typically:

250mm front
350mm rear

that measurement is taken from the outside of the coil closest to the inside of the tyre.

factory D130 quoted bump stop clearance is

front +/- 15mm - 97mm
rear +/- 15mm - 152mm

By comparison the D110 bump stop clearance is

front +/- 15mm - 72mm
rear +/- 15mm - 130mm

Be careful of bump stop clearance, variations in rubber, age, wear and tear and location of measurement etc will all affect the value.

your actual lift is +/- 20mm front and rear over D130 factory. If you feel cheeky you can compare it to a D110 and say it's a 3" lift at the rear.

A 33" tyre will easily fit and move without fouling at factory D130 height so that's not, necessarily, the cause of your fouling. I ran 35" rubber on an actual 40mm lift without fouling and i know numerous defenders running 33" on standard or not far from standard height without fouling.

Badco. the specs you quoted I suspect are the free length not the static (loaded) length. The factory D130 free length for FD 395mm (15.3") and FP 382mm (14.8"), rear is 420mm (16.5"). The D130 front coil is marginally longer and higher rating than the D110 coil. The rear is the D110 outer coil plus the inner helper which increases the rate from about 330 lbs/in (D110) to 420 lbs/in (D130).

For you to achieve a front static length of 350mm you would start at about 465/470mm free length and that is for a coil at 240 lbs/in which is higher than the factory D130 rate (225 lbs/in). [i'm quoting from my coil specs, supplied by Dobinsons and verified by my own measurements before fitting and after fitting]

People forget that OME, Dobinson, King etc design their aftermarket coils on the assumption people use the factory shocks or their branded shocks which are about the same as the factory open and closed lengths so the coil does not dislocate under articulation. The lift comes from a thicker wire resulting in a higher lbs/in rate.

The manufacturers forget that a D130 has different spec coils to the D110 and what is a lift on a D110 does not necessarily equate to a lift on a D130.

Don't trust marketing material.

MLD

[BadCo.]

Badco. the specs you quoted I suspect are the free length not the static (loaded) length. The factory D130 free length for FD 395mm (15.3") and FP 382mm (14.8"), rear is 420mm (16.5"). The D130 front coil is marginally longer and higher rating than the D110 coil. The rear is the D110 outer coil plus the inner helper which increases the rate from about 330 lbs/in (D110) to 420 lbs/in (D130).

MLD

Yes, this true. Sorry should have specified.

[BadCo.]

If you want more spring options, feel free to refer to my spreadsheet (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Bztp4ZSkCfeSRRlMznuSOPyCcEPWm8Va8RA-iyHI2Z8) :)

[Dozer Dan]

The front end is physically the same no matter if it's a 90, 110 or 130 so if you have the height it shouldn't rub.

I was running 35"s for a while on a 2" lift. Was catching the rear of the front eyebrows, that was it. The springs compressed at the time measured 295mm.

You will have to inspect closer and look where exactly it's rubbing.

[sjl81]

your actual lift is +/- 20mm front and rear over D130 factory. If you feel cheeky you can compare it to a D110 and say it's a 3" lift at the rear.




Hi MLD, it certainly seems from the measurements that there is even lift across the front to rear, however the more I look at the truck, the more obvious it is that it is sitting a lot lower at the front. I will try and embed a picture in this thread if I can work out how to do it.


Let me know what you guys think.

[sjl81]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/09/284.jpg

[BadCo.]

Unladen?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using AULRO mobile app

[sjl81]

drawer system in rear with steel tubular framing to support alloy tray above. Otherwise unladen.

At front have winch bar and 12000lb winch


although theres a suggestion that bump stop measurement s are less reliable, I went ahead and measured anyway.

The results:

Front Driver 79mm
Front Passenger 82mm
Rear Driver 150mm
Rear Passenger 148mm

[MLD]

The defender rear relative to the front sits a little higher so you will always have that appearance of the nose being down relative to the rear. If your lift is same front to rear the nose down appearance will carry over. Though your pic appears a little more pronounced than the stance of a new D130.

My truck (green) sits level front to rear but the rear is about a 2" lift whereas the front is closer to 4" lift. In this shot I was carrying stuff for 3 week trip. The height of the tray is an optical distraction to appreciate the rear lift.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/09/271.jpg

Stefan's D110 is nicely balanced too. He is set up to invade a pacific island nation. Which is testament to his suspension set up.

The only thing we can do on the forum is speculate what is your problem. The best thing to do is put it on a hoist, undo your shock and move your axle through its full range and take note of where it fouls, what are the clearances to bump stops, coil response etc.

Something to think about but i doubt comes into play is the panhard rod. The lift will shift the centre point of your diff towards the driver's side (i think). It's about 1cm for each inch in lift. That might be contributing to your catching of the flare.

MLD

[MLD]

If you want more spring options, feel free to refer to my spreadsheet (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Bztp4ZSkCfeSRRlMznuSOPyCcEPWm8Va8RA-iyHI2Z8) :)

in the interests of sharing, this is my spreadsheet for a D130. Any part ref with a prefix C51 is Dobinson and for a defender. The C51-203V, C51-198V and C51-199V are special order so best to speak with Rockhampton not the outlets, the outlets won't know what you are talking about because its info on the computers in the factory.

For what it is worth, my 2 dealings with Dobinson in Rocky have been helpful and obliging to find the right solution. In fact they redesigned the 199V to my specs and came up with the 203V as a special order.

reference to "LRA" is Les Richmond Auto.

MLD

[sjl81]

I'm going to try a new spring on the front to see whether that alleviates the fouling problem.


I think I'm going to go with the dobinsons and reckon I've got 2 choices to achieve an approx 50mm lift:


C51-015 237lb 430mm which is only slightly higher rated than the OME751 that I currently have but 40mm longer.


C51-026 285lbs 385mm (for arguments sake using MLC's data as it differs from Badco's)


In regard to spring sag and age etc is it possible that a spring can lose its ability to support its normal load over time, for example it will compress more with the same load over bumps. I don't mean just a shorter static length but an increased rate of compression too IYKWIM.
I went down an unexpected pothole a couple of days ago, not particularly fast, it was moments after moving from a standstill so 10-15kph at most. It bottomed out pretty severely. The only added weight at the front of my 130 to standard is the arb bull bar driving lights and a synthetic rope (not steel cable) winch. we not exactly big people either, both myself and OH around 60kg each (I'm presuming that hd axles and steering bars dont play a part in spring load bearing values?) I'm worrying about this point because if my current springs are not sagged and decrepit and still just as good as new, then I wonder if they are heavy duty enough which would obviously affect my choice.


When I approached my local ARB and Dobinsons suppliers both pointed me towards the heavier spring rather than the longer spring options I have researched because "thats what their computer said" for the make and model of vehicle. If I have to go with a heavier spring I will, but I would prefer to not have an excessively hard ride if at all possible.


As you stated previously MLC the current shocks have pretty much the same length of travel as stock, however it seems as though they differ in terms of where they rest within that range of travel.
stock open and closed are 584mm and 362mm
ome60037 open and closed are 553mm and 329mm
Excuse my complete lack of understanding of this but why are the open and closed lengths different? And does or should this have a bearing on my spring choice?
If my current shocks have the same amount of travel as standard is OK to be increasing my spring length? Again apologies for lack of understanding as to how spring length relates to shock length.


What are the positives and negatives for the choices I have, so length vs rate?

[MLD]

I've been elevated up the alphabet, that's personal and professional advancement. hippeeee

I would go with the C51-015. I run 240lbs coils in the front (and formerly had the -026 coils) and the 240lbs are firm enough to keep the nose in check yet allow it to flex when required. They won't be as soft as flexi coils or the D110 coils but are not a bad compromise and should feel similar to your current coils. I found the -026 coils to be too firm and harsh on imperfections on the road. The -198V (240lbs) that i run are still firm if you hit a speed bump at speed but not the kidney jarring of the -026.

I cautioned earlier to ignore marketing material from the coil manufacturers. The only way to know how the coil will be is to have the specs and compare to factory and other known examples.

Dealing with your other question re shock length, the OME shock will tuck up more than the OEM because it has a shorter closed length but won't drop as low. This may be a contributing factor to your tyre catching the guard because you have moved your operating range north. The bump stop should be the limiting factor if the wheel tucks up too much. With the OME shocks your coil could also bind up before axle housing hits bump stop or tyre catches. That all said, the shocks may be your problem not the coils.

My suggestion is to remove the OME stuff and melt it down to scrap and slingshot it. Cheap option is to re-fit factory shocks. New shocks will give your truck a new lease on life too. If you want new coils replace with factory coils or the Dobinson -015 coils.

Turning to the -015 coils without knowing the wire diameter its difficult to say what the static height will likely be. If the -015 coil is 40mm longer free length with similar rate to the OME the wire diameter must be thinner. This will give you a more compliant ride over imperfections but may not give you any greater lift. Compliance will come from the thinner diameter and the extra distance in travel before binding. More noticeable on fast drainage culverts than speed bumps in the carpark. It's a suck it an see situation with coils and each person likes a different.

I'll finish on the thought that your shocks may be your problem with catching not the coils.

MLD

[sjl81]

Seeing as I was about to outlay well over $1000 on a new set of tyres that may not now be necessary, I think I'd be happy spending a bit on getting the suspension set up well, especially the front for now, the rear isn't really an issue other than its very hard which I would probably look at sorting when I have a bit more spare cash.


If i'm going to replace the shocks then I might as well put in a set that are going to give some more articulation too.


What would be some good shock options with the dobinson 015's. Is there a maximum travel increase that I should be looking at?


What kind of reputation do dobinsons or terrafirma shocks have?
I've read a bit about 80 series shocks being a suitable option, would these be standard 80 series or a longer travel option I've found +4" and +6"? I am aware of maybe having to change the shock mounts and bump stops, what about brake lines or anything else that might come into play? I want to make sure I've covered everything and budgeted before I go out and start buying components.


Reading about Bilsteins and Konis, both sound good, but I'm not sure that i'd like to be spending that big on shocks especially if I have to spend to modify other components to suit .

[MLD]

What would be some good shock options with the dobinson 015's.

If you are asking for a recommendation on a brand, its subjective and every owner can and likely will justify their choice. If you are staying with the factory open and closed lengths then, arguably, any brand that suits your budget.

Is there a maximum travel increase that I should be looking at?

The world is your oyster and only limited by money and imagination. For max articulation before getting into the extremes you may choose to ignore anything longer than 11.5" travel. After that there is a heap of modifications to make it work. Even at 11.5" you will have to change shock mounts, bump stops, brake lines, relocation cones or longer coils to avoid dislocation.

What kind of reputation do dobinsons or terrafirma shocks have?

This is a can of subjective worms.

I've read a bit about 80 series shocks being a suitable option, would these be standard 80 series or a longer travel option I've found +4" and +6"? I am aware of maybe having to change the shock mounts and bump stops, what about brake lines or anything else that might come into play? I want to make sure I've covered everything and budgeted before I go out and start buying components.

Changing to a long travel shock introduces a range of knock on modifications. I have the 80 series +4" shocks and (just on the front) i have extended brake lines, extended bump stops, +2" taller shock towers with relocation cones, longer coils. Those changes would be a minimum. To make full use of the extra articulation you can fit super flex radius arms. Not sure if a wide angle prop shaft will be necessary, you won't know until its on the hoist to see if the shaft binds when the housing is hanging at full drop. +6" 80 series shocks involve the above with more money and thought invested to make it all work.

the rear includes, wide angle A frame joint, raised shock mounts, longer coils and/or relocation cones, brake line, possibly HD trailing arms or at least taking the grinder to the axle mount to give the arm some clearance from binding, and a box of trailing arm bushes because they fog out after a few days of hard 4wding (or superpro bushes).


There is more involved and costs a pretty penny to fit long travel suspension. I would counsel against doing the front and leaving the rear stock. Better to think about the entire package, save your pennies and fit in one project.

Your initial post was warning of a limited budget. I hope you have the appetite for the expense involved when you start to add it all up.

MLD

[rick130]

What Mark said.

300Tdi's definitely need either a wide angle yoke/prop shaft or a decent DC shaft if you go to only stock length (10" travel) 80 Series dampers on the front, the stock shaft binds with longer travel dampers.

The prop shaft also hits the anti roll bar in droop, so it has to go, and on it goes....

As Mark said, change one thing and a whole can of worms opens....