Anyone fitted a catch-can to a puma?

[POD]

Was discussing the oil through the inlet system with the guy who replaced my VCV last week and he suggested I look into fitting a catch can, wondering if anyone has done this with the puma engine, what unit, cost, how effective etc.

[Beery]

I think a Mann+Hummel Provent oil separator is what many Puma owners have used. Apparently much better than the standard separator.

[Mick_Marsh]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/151401-chops-his-110-crew-cab-puma.html#post2424630

[Chops]

Hi Pete,
As you can see from Mick's post I have just fitted a very cheap version of one on mine.
When a bit more flush, I'll get this unit to put in properly.
Mann Provent 200 OIL Catch CAN Separator 3931070550 Suits Turbo Charged 4WDS | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mann-Provent-200-Oil-Catch-Can-Separator-3931070550-Suits-Turbo-Charged-4WDs-/251255696154)

Not sure what the filters are worth on their own though. I imagine not cheap.
However, Looking at my engine bay, and the aftermath of oil seeping through various hoses and joints, I feel its the only way to deal with it. One shouldn't have to be steam cleaning the engine every service,,, not that I do :angel:

Your more than welcome to check it out on your way past one day.

[ozy013]

Was discussing the oil through the inlet system with the guy who replaced my VCV last week and he suggested I look into fitting a catch can, wondering if anyone has done this with the puma engine, what unit, cost, how effective etc.

I know that plenty have fitted provent 200 catch cans in the UK. Look on DEFENDER2, i'm overseas at the moment and can't seem to get my tablet to make the links work properly.
I think K9F attached his with a clamp onto the a/c pipe at the back of the compressor, and i remember seeing one attached via a bracket to the top of the clutch pedal box. Others have used those quick fist clamps. There was even one where the Provent was mounted on the other side of the engine bay, infront of the heater box, though the pipework was a bit too long for my liking.

They did have a group buy awhile back, only 6 or so available, as they're pretty exxy. Though now and again you see a few for sale on the forum. Just beware of cheap imatations, if you do decide to go wih the Provent.

[POD]

I've seen lots of threads on the Provent on here over the years but I have to admit I have not looked at any of them until now because they have all been about td5s and I guess I thought it was a td5 specific thing. From what I can see the Pro-vent goes for around $160, not cheap but certainly not the most expensive mod either. I tend to have more oil than I would like through the whole inlet system, weeping from hose joins and also fouling the MAP sensor from time to time.

[jus09]

I went with a HPD catch can for my puma. There twice the price of the provents but with the HPD you don't need to replace any filters. So maybe it will pay off in the long run. It has a dip stick on it to keep an eye on oil levels inside it. 99887

[Chops]

Pete, whatever way you go, a little advice from me ;)

In life, I generally always crack it with people who take short-cuts. It never does any favours for anyone really, and usually ends up costing more in the long run :(

So, with mine, I have taken said short-cut and not fitted it up with the correct fitting parts. Today, whilst taking Leeanne to work, I felt the motor flinch, but didn't think too much about it. When I got to my destination where I work, (which was to do some stuff to the car), I got out to open the gate, came back to massive pool of oil under the car.
On inspection, all I can conclude is that due to the weak hose I used, with the heat of the motor/engine bay, its collapsed/kinked totally and thus a build up has occurred and then blown oil out of the filler cap.

Everything seems to be ok, car runs well still, but it's got me worried. I'll do some checking through the week and see what's what. My only problem with this scenario is that I would have thought that if the pressure build up was that big, it would have just blown the hose off, which on mine anyway, is only sort of loosely connected. :confused:

[POD]

Hope it's no major drama Marcus.
I will be looking at a Provent I think, have some leave over the next few weeks and need to do a few things on the vehicle including drop the transfer case to fix the layshaft oil leak, might be able to squeeze this job in too. Would be nice to have an intake system that is not continuously fed with oil vapour.

[gouldier]

Hi POD I fitted the same catch can to my 2012 130 single cab a few months back . I used some flat bar alloy and bent up 2 brackets and mounted in front of the brake master cylinder and replaced all the hoses to 1 inch the same as the catch can . Just had to replace the joiner in the air intake hose to a 3/4 to 1"" inline joiner. It's been on for over 5000 km and only the filter in the can has some oil on it. Hope this helps any. I could not find on the net any photos of a right hand defender . So I made my own. gouldier photos attached

[gouldier]

Here's another photo so you can see where the brackets are I bolted then to the inner guard.

[Chops]

Jus09 & Goulier, did you clean out your systems at all when you did this? As in your pipe work and cooler.
I was told I could out an airline attachment (tyre valve) into the main inlet hose to the Turbo and then spray a certain fluid (it's name eludes me at present) and with the motor running, basically empty the can into it and watch all the residual oil through the system get burnt and clean out.
Not sure about this, but I've been told by two people to do this, ones a Mech and ones an engineer/racer, so I'm guessing their both right. I doubt my mate would let me do something that would damage the engine.

[jus09]

I cleaned out the intercooler with Shellite, made by DIGGERS which you can get from bunnings. Took the intercooler out and flushed it out about 4 times. First flush was like black sludge, amazing how much oil gets in there. Just gave the hoses a wipe with a rag. Ive never heard of this flushing out through a turbo.

[Surrufus]

Out of curiosity, what size ID is the standard crank case ventilation to turbo intake hose? (ie where you'd install the Provent)
Does anyone have a photo of it stock? Or a tech drawing from a manual or something?

[gouldier]

The oem hose is 19mm or 3/4 " it is a pre molded hose and the pro vent is 25mm or 1 " . If you take the whole hose and fitting off the engine cover, the 25 mm hose fits straight onto the plastic barb on the the engine side ( hose clamps of coarse ) At the air intake end, I removed the original in line 19mm to 19mm barb to barb and replaced it with a 19mm to 25mm reducing barb . Brought it from a irrigation supplier. It took me a few try's to get the correct fuel/ oil hose. To get it to bend to 90 deg.

[justinc]

Marcus that was so close to a runaway or a bent rod mate!!

Jc

[Marty90]

Asgard engineering had a stand at the 4x4 show last month.They're waiting on the laser cutter for the brackets.They supply Provent in a kit form.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I was reading about the provent in the disco sub forum here. (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/161671-show-us-ya-provent.html) Then did some searching regarding the puma. Looks liek I've found the right spot to re-open this discussion.

I looked up the Asgard Engineering site and could not seem to find any defender puma specific Provent mounting kits. Wondering if there is anything out there since the radio silence in NOV '15?

The 2.2Tdci ranger has provent kits available... same with the 3.2 tdci ranger and BT50. Doesn't help us landy drivers though.

Also wondering why people choose the Provent 200... seems overkill? Surely there's be bigger issues if you were making the amount of blow-by that the 200 series filter is capable of handling!?

The provent 100 is good for engines up to 100kW with 100lpm blow by (puma is 99kW, so borderline). Hose sizing seems to be OK as per Gouldier's post above (19mm stock hose I.D.)
Provent 150 is 150kW and 150lpm, Provent 200 is 200kW/200lpm respectively...
Mann+Hummel have a spec sheet >>here<< if anyone is interested.

[Toxic_Avenger]

For science...
'Excessive blow-by' on a 5.9litre Cummins 6BT (@100% load, and 2800RPM) is 170LPM
Wouldn't want to have a puma with that much blow by, considering it's only ~40% of what the cummins is (by volume)

[Surrufus]

I recently email James at Asgard Engineering, and the reason nothing has gone forward is that he lost his test vehicle shortly after measuring up for the brackets.

He's looking for a test vehicle in Sydney, local to his workshop if possible.
I suggested he look here on AULRO for a test vehicle.
Maybe someone here lives nearby and wants to help out?

[alittlebitconcerned]

my Puma has driven over 150k.
Would there be much point putting one on at this stage?

[roverrescue]

Have people who have installed a can plumbed the oil outflow back to the sump or are you simply collecting?

Following an EGR delete I am planning on cleaning the induction side of my 2.4, replacing the IC hoses and was planning on installing a can. Just deciding what to do with the oil that is collected????

S

[Chops]

There are different sorts of cans available with some being plumbed back into the motor, and some not.
The unit I bought has a sight tube on the side so you can see how full, or how much is in the can and then empty it via a drain pipe. Doing this though, you would need to make sure your up to date and do oil checks regularly. Cant tell you how much blow by you get though. Whenever I do an oil change, I pull the sensors out and clean them too, and generally try and clean up any oil laying about within pipes.
I guess though, if you really wanted, all you need to do is find somewhere you can use as in inlet, and plumb it straight back in to the motor,,, big truck units do this.
The only thing to be aware of is motor pressure, which is what happened to mine when one of the hoses collapsed under heat, causing it to spew oil everywhere. A lucky escape on that one, hence why I'm going to get the Provent unit shortly.

[Toxic_Avenger]

There are different sorts of cans available with some being plumbed back into the motor, and some not.
The unit I bought has a sight tube on the side so you can see how full, or how much is in the can and then empty it via a drain pipe. Doing this though, you would need to make sure your up to date and do oil checks regularly. Cant tell you how much blow by you get though. Whenever I do an oil change, I pull the sensors out and clean them too, and generally try and clean up any oil laying about within pipes.
I guess though, if you really wanted, all you need to do is find somewhere you can use as in inlet, and plumb it straight back in to the motor,,, big truck units do this.
The only thing to be aware of is motor pressure, which is what happened to mine when one of the hoses collapsed under heat, causing it to spew oil everywhere. A lucky escape on that one, hence why I'm going to get the Provent unit shortly.

I read about your catch can hose failure. Looked gnarly.

As for the catch can filling up, if the engine is running right, then filling up should be no more than a normal oil change interval. I've heard figures of 30ml for 3000miles... your results may vary, but excess oil could be a sign of bigger issues.

As for the last comment, 'plumbing it straight back into the motor', It would need to go to the sump. Would defeat the purpose of the unit if it were to go back into the intake!
I'm not 100% sure where one would be able to find a drain point, but gut feel would be turbo oil drain hose. I might need to suss out the microcat / FSM to see... it's dark and cold out and I'm comfortable :p

[roverrescue]

Mitch,

Ive just pulled the trigger on a Provent 100
It is rated at 100KW or 100L/min blow by

My 2.4 is less than 100KW and although I dont have numbers for the tdci
I have found a 4BT (3.9L) when new at 2800RPM flows ~60L/min
I can only imagine that a near new 2.4 will be fine with the Provent 100.

I just think it will be easier to fit for two reasons size and being able to rotate the inlet 180 degrees to the outlet.

My old donger 300tdi had a Provent200 that was simply supported by the pipework for 100,000km so Im hoping the smaller Provent100 might happily sit in the PCV line with little to no support.

Once vent arrives Ill clean out intercooler, change the IC hoses to the silicone I got from BAS and likely block off the EGR mechanically (to compliment ECU blocking)
Will report back.

Steve

[davisshannon]

Has anyone heard any more from Asgard in relation to their development work? I'm interested in installing a Provent 200 (BAS Intercooler and ECU planned in the future), and I want a properly designed solution.

[rutmutt]

also following for the same reasons, just ordered BAS and intercooler

[strangy]

Just some extra info for anyone interested.
I have just spoken direct to Mann+Hummel rep trying to find a distributer fro a Provent 200 in Alice.
Interesting, first he reckons the Provent 100 would be fine for my TD5 and the 2.2 or 2.4.
Second, Don Kyatt (parts retailer for the primary Japanes fourby ) have a Provent 100 rebadged as their own brand. It is a genuin Mann+Hummell Provent 100 in everyway and apparently the only unit supplied for a much bigger LC donk.

[Tombie]

If you can't find them locally Strangy go to Western Filters web site.

[Tombie]

I would question fitting a filter rated at 100kw when any tuned LR diesel is 30%+ above that rating.

[Toxic_Avenger]

But the filter doesn't need to handle HP... it needs to handle flow of blow-by gases. It's not like a gearbox or an axle that shears when it sees too much power* (HP, kW etc). It will restrict flow, and force oil out past seals, out the dipstick or past a gasket.

How does blow-by correlate with HP?
I imagine it would rise with RPM.
I also imagine that a small 2.2 or 2.4L diesel with anything more than 100LPM blow-by flow would be in a bad state of affairs.


*yeah, if we are splitting hairs it's probably torque that breaks gearboxes and axles, but hey, we are talking in laymans terms here

[Chops]

Does anyone worry about this with the D4's at all?

[Tombie]

Does anyone worry about this with the D4's at all?



I haven't. But I did sort EGR

I don't think I could find some real estate for the unit without some serious fabrication work..

[Tombie]

Toxic. I pondered this also...
However there must be a good reason for it.

I was pondering if it's the cyclic displacement and blow by or just an expected blow by based on displacement..

Either way - the 200 fits in the bay easily enough that I will just be going down that track eventually.

[Toxic_Avenger]

The piston rings press against the ring lands and are pushed into the bores as the combustion gases attempt to squeeze their way past the piston to the sump. There is a lot going on in those 3 little bits of spring steel (and the oil control ring)... but like you, it would be interesting to know how they give each unit its rating.

I suppose like anything, if you've got the space for one, go for it. Having the extra headroom of a 200 series provent can't be a bad thing.

[alittlebitconcerned]

Would there be a number of Km's driven where there would be little point in installing a catch can? ie after a certain age is the engine is too worn to bother?

[strangy]

Would there be a number of Km's driven where there would be little point in installing a catch can? ie after a certain age is the engine is too worn to bother?
Im going to call the M+H rep again tomorrow to find out why/how the kw vs displacement determines the sizing.

Regarding kms, the rep advised that the intercooler, inlet manifold and egr should be thoroughly cleaned prior to fitting on older (or any) engines. There is a benefit on older engines because they typically suffer more blow by and reduce the performance of the intercooler and clog the EGR further.
If the motor is suffering enough that a rebuild is needed the Provent wont be of any benefit.

[Marty90]

Just spoke with James at Asgard and same reply as before regarding test vehicle,but he has another vehicle lined up for August sometime.Offered my vehicle if it falls through.He supplies the 200 pro-vent in the kit.

[strangy]

Spoke again to M+H rep today for some clarity. Originally the Provent was designed for stationary motors eg generators and compressors. There are some calculations and equations based on typical RPM and displacement which results in a typical Kw and calculated blow by.
Kw was/is the easiest way to determine the selection, however it is ultimately the blow by which matters.
Im assured a 100 will cope with the TD5 and ultimately Puma motors just fine despite potential Kw output.
However I shall be purchasing the 200 as the Rep mentioned at higher kms 400 ish , the 100 wont be adequate.
My motor has only 49kms on it but don't want to be upgrading Provent later in life when the 200 will cope til the motor ultimately dies.
here is link for general info http://www.mann-hummel.com.au/FileUploads_Misc/Proventserviceman.pdf

[rutmutt]

I really want one so I can fit my new intercooler but seeing as I am terrible at manufacturing things like brackets, I'm waiting with bated breath for a kit form

Sent from my ZTE Blade Q Lux using AULRO mobile app

[Landy86]

Good news guys.

Spoke to the guys from asgard engineering
There is a kit now available for the puma

He hasnt had time to update his web site yet

Order away

[1nando]

I bought a provent 200 kit for the ranger 2.2. It came with a bracket which i used to mount it. The only thing i need to do was get the hoses to suit.
Excellent mod, very happy. Looks factory also

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app

[CS78]

1nando, can you take a photo of where you mounted the provent?

[dazzler]

Anyone used these for the provent upgrade?

HKBPVH HOSE KIT TO FIT PROVENT MANN HUMMEL OIL CATCH CAN VENT SYSTEM | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HKBPVH-HOSE-KIT-TO-FIT-PROVENT-MANN-HUMMEL-OIL-CATCH-CAN-VENT-SYSTEM-/252254170757?hash=item3abb852e85:g:SAsAAOSw65FXwsN b)

[Tombie]

Well I'd avoid that kit.. for now..

They quote an EPDM drain line for starters - EPDM and oil are infinitely NOT compatible...

I've sent them a message regarding EPDM and will see what they say (the primary lines look ok)

[Toxic_Avenger]

I was considering somethign like this if/when I get one of the provents.
Provent 200 Reducer Adaptor 19mm, Mann Hummel Catch Can (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/191856804642)

Anyone got any pointers on what size hoses come out of the valve cover / intake manifold?

[dazzler]

Thanks Tombie! you are a bit late, I have already pulled the trigger ;).

Toxic the ID would be 16mm

cheers,
pd

[Tombie]

Thanks Tombie! you are a bit late, I have already pulled the trigger ;).



Toxic the ID would be 16mm



cheers,

pd



No worries - just don't use the return (drain) line hose

[Baytown]

GDay fellas.
Enjoying this thread. Is this the kit I need for my 2.2, or would I be better off waiting for the new kit with the brackets as discussed, if they modify the drain tube to an oil freindly type?
I'm not in a rush as such.
Ta.
Ken
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a452/47Indian/IMG_4415.png (http://s1037.photobucket.com/user/47Indian/media/IMG_4415.png.html)

[Tombie]

Well I contacted the mob... and they answered. [emoji41]

They have changed the hose for the drain now and are changing the advert to reflect it soon..

[Toxic_Avenger]

Thanks Tombie! you are a bit late, I have already pulled the trigger ;).

Toxic the ID would be 16mm

cheers,
pd


NEWS FLASH!

Just got off my lazy arse and took 5 minutes to measure the PCVhose piece myself.
Turns out my vehicle (2012, 2.2tdci) had a 19mm ID hose between the valve cover and the post-filter intake hose. Specifically, measured where it joins the intake piping. Surely the hose doesn't taper to different sizing on each end? Pic below shows closer to 20mm, but I was balancing ruler, hose and camera all with 2 hands. Hose barb on intake is confirmed 19mm too.

I didn't disassemble further, but there is some crazy looking spring/hose clamp on the engine side, and possibly a male-male barb joiner on the intake side. So maybe the joiner on the intake hose is Male/male 19mm>16mm?

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/01/935.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/01/936.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/01/937.jpg

I also have bugger-all room to fit a catch can in the position between the brake master and the intake pipe. I have foolishly mounted my winch solenoid and remote control module there :/
Could mount closer to the exhaust near the coolant expansion tank, but the provent is only good for up to 120celsius... might be pushing it right above the Cat converter.

[1nando]

1nando, can you take a photo of where you mounted the provent?

Sorry for delay mate, please see as requested


Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile app

[roverrescue]

I went with the 100 installed August.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/239140-provent100-install-2-4tdci.html

Plumbing easy as can just plug straight into intake plumbing
Has been going well drain tube is plugged which I've drained twice since August -about 10mL each time

Tombie don't kill me but I used garden hose for my drain ;)

S

[Baytown]

Thanks Tombie.
I'll purchase off Phoenix then. I'll just await their reply to my enquiry.
And as per Mitchs' comments re ID of the plumbing, I'll measure mine as it's a 2012 bitza as well.
Good on you again.
Ken