A different shudder

[Stuart02]

Shuddering coming through the steering wheel, increasing with speed from 80 to visible wheel shake and most unpleasant at 100 kmh, but wheel balance and rotation didn't fix it. What else could it be??

We're supposed to be throwing the trailer on and heading off camping on Friday for Dan Andrews' long weekend, but really don't want to drive it in its current state.

Thank you

[DiscoMick]

Are your tyres standard? Even if balanced larger tyres can be hard to get right. How's your steering damper?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[justinc]

Has anyone checked tie rod ends? And a wheel balance may not pick up a bubble or irregularity in a tyre. Go outside and run your hands around the tread of both front tyres.

Jc

[Stuart02]

Are your tyres standard? Even if balanced larger tyres can be hard to get right. How's your steering damper?

Yeah standard size but they are 275/40/20. Nothing much left to the imagination!
I'll check out the damper, thanks.

[Stuart02]

Has anyone checked tie rod ends? And a wheel balance may not pick up a bubble or irregularity in a tyre. Go outside and run your hands around the tread of both front tyres.

Jc

Thanks, I couldn't spot anything on the tyres, sounds like I need the front end properly gone over.

[justinc]

No steering damper on d3/4

Jc

[LandyAndy]

There have been posts in the past about loose steering racks on D3s.Worth looking at.Get somebody to steer it whilst looking underneath,it should be obvious if the rack is loose.
GOODLUCK
Andrew

[Redback]

Also check to make sure your front diff support is not loose, I had mine come loose, actually one of the bolts was completely gone, also check the steering arm.

[Stuart02]

Mechanic swears everything in the front end is tight, and is positive it's not anything gearbox or back as the steering wheel wobbles rather than just shakes. I was under the impression in the past that problems in the rear of all wheel drives could cause steering wheel wobble but I don't know much.

There's no rumble like you might expect with a wheel bearing, though if I use my paranoid imagination enough there is a bit of low speed harshness transmitting through the steering wheel.

I think he's now looking at front drive shafts, CVs etc...

[Redback]

I'd be looking at the tyres again, get them checked for out of round, a wheel bearing normally give a vibration, not a wobble, loose suspension parts, out of round or incorrectly balanced tyres give a wobble.

What about the steering knuckle/box and the end of the steering shaft, has that been checked.

This is a long shot, but are all the rims flat/flush against the hub and centered?

I remember that someone posted that their axle shaft had been loose, the centre nut was loose apparently, might wanna look at that also.

[Stuart02]

Yeah he balanced the wheels three times on two machines, checked valves etc and swapped them all off one by one to test on road, he was so convinced it was a balancing thing!

I'll keep reporting...

[Stuart02]

Update: new lower control arms subdued but didn't eliminate the shudder; rear discs replaced no difference (didn't really expect that to help); wheels were swapped off and it seemed fine on borrowed rims and tyres the but when original wheels/tyres went back on it also seemed fine - What tha? Went ahead with new Cooper LTZs but shudder is still there - double what tha?! That only leaves bearings and steering, both of which are fine according to four different mechanics...

I'd really rather be spending money on mods than maintenance!!

[LandyAndy]

Update: new lower control arms subdued but didn't eliminate the shudder; rear discs replaced no difference (didn't really expect that to help); wheels were swapped off and it seemed fine on borrowed rims and tyres the but when original wheels/tyres went back on it also seemed fine - What tha? Went ahead with new Cooper LTZs but shudder is still there - double what tha?! That only leaves bearings and steering, both of which are fine according to four different mechanics...

I'd really rather be spending money on mods than maintenance!!

Nice of you to offer,send your money to this moderator before the others put their hands up:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

[Stuart02]

Nice of you to offer,send your money to this moderator before the others put their hands up:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Andrew

Haha you have my word that the minute I have a spare dollar...

[LandyAndy]

Stuart.
Ive been sniffing around on gumtree today seeing whats for sale as one does.
Was reading this RRS add,it said its just had the hydro bushes done.Never heard of them before,possibly your issue????
2009 Land Rover Range Rover MY09 Sport 3.6 TDV8 Black 6 Speed Sequential Auto Wagon | Cars, Vans & Utes | Gumtree Australia Canning Area - Bentley | 1092195559 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bentley/cars-vans-utes/2009-land-rover-range-rover-my09-sport-3-6-tdv8-black-6-speed-sequential-auto-wagon/1092195559)
Andrew

[Stuart02]

Stuart.
Ive been sniffing around on gumtree today seeing whats for sale as one does.
Was reading this RRS add,it said its just had the hydro bushes done.Never heard of them before,possibly your issue????
2009 Land Rover Range Rover MY09 Sport 3.6 TDV8 Black 6 Speed Sequential Auto Wagon | Cars, Vans & Utes | Gumtree Australia Canning Area - Bentley | 1092195559 (http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/bentley/cars-vans-utes/2009-land-rover-range-rover-my09-sport-3-6-tdv8-black-6-speed-sequential-auto-wagon/1092195559)
Andrew

Thanks - do ppl sometimes refer to the control arm bushes as hydro bushes? But I've not seen them done before 43000 kms!
Ours were knackered and were obviously amplifying the shudder but they weren't the root of the problem.

[LRD414]

Thanks - do ppl sometimes refer to the control arm bushes as hydro bushes? But I've not seen them done before 43000 kms!
I'd guess yes, hydro short for hydrolastic, as per explanation in this thread (post#7):
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/219785-lower-control-arms.html
That does sound like low kms for the control arm bushes.

Scott

[pwillo]

Might I suggest an 'on car' wheel balance. This was the only way of reliably balancing my Nissan wheels and Cooper tyres.

Regards

[Stuart02]

Might I suggest an 'on car' wheel balance. This was the only way of reliably balancing my Nissan wheels and Cooper tyres.

Regards

Thanks - how who and where does that?

[pwillo]

My tyre shop had the machine. It's a bit scary, the operator sits on the machine and uses his weight to hold a drive wheel against the side of the wheel to balance whilst it is jacked up. Spins your wheel up to a pretty high speed and gets a reading.

Balances the whole wheel and hub as a unit. Always worked, my model Nissan was apparently notorious for being hard to balance with Cooper tyres.

If the wheel was correctly balanced it means that the problem must be in the hub assembly, go figure. I never found out why, but it just worked.

You may need to ask around a couple of places, it was not a tool they used eyery day.

Regards

[Stuart02]

My tyre shop had the machine. It's a bit scary, the operator sits on the machine and uses his weight to hold a drive wheel against the side of the wheel to balance whilst it is jacked up. Spins your wheel up to a pretty high speed and gets a reading.

Balances the whole wheel and hub as a unit. Always worked, my model Nissan was apparently notorious for being hard to balance with Cooper tyres.

If the wheel was correctly balanced it means that the problem must be in the hub assembly, go figure. I never found out why, but it just worked.

You may need to ask around a couple of places, it was not a tool they used eyery day.

Regards

Yeah wow. I want to see that done!

[Graeme]

How many kms have the shocks done and how hard a life have they had? What's the wheel alignment like?

Was the balance done using a finger balance or just the normal clamped against the face? Were the wheels removed from the balance m/c then remounted to check that they were still showing as in balance? Had that problem with my D4 when the tyre shop's machine was too worn.

[Stuart02]

How many kms have the shocks done and how hard a life have they had? What's the wheel alignment like?

Was the balance done using a finger balance or just the normal clamped against the face? Were the wheels removed from the balance m/c then remounted to check that they were still showing as in balance? Had that problem with my D4 when the tyre shop's machine was too worn.

Good questions re the balancing procedure. I'll ask them.
Hard to say re the work the shocks have done other than towing something heavy enough to need an electric trailer brake (second owner) but they'd be original with 188000 kms on them.

[pwillo]

I don't know how to post a YouTube link for sure.

http://youtu.be/7UP97bO-MpU


http://youtu.be/7UP97bO-MpU

If that link doesn't work.

Search "on car wheel balancing" although it's Yankee it is the same machine my shop used.

Regards

[pwillo]

So I tried two different links and they both worked, can't believe my luck. :p

Should your problem be in the suspension, this will not be a solution but it will be a cheap way of eliminating your rotating mass as the source of the problem.

Regards

[ytt105]

Used to get 'on car balancing' back in the 70's. It's nothing new.

Basically it says there's something wrong somewhere!

[Graeme]

the shocks ... they'd be original with 188000 kms on them.
My guess is that the shocks are way past needing replacing so I would replace them then see if there's still a problem.

[Stuart02]

So I tried two different links and they both worked, can't believe my luck. :p

Should your problem be in the suspension, this will not be a solution but it will be a cheap way of eliminating your rotating mass as the source of the problem.

Regards

Thanks and absolutely - as you and Ytt105 say, something's wrong and it'd be helpful in sorting it out. Obviously it'd have to be done every time there was a wheel rotation or the spare was put on (though I can't even track it to one corner at the moment!).

Thanks too Graeme, the shocks are moving up the list :)

Gotta love a maintenance catch up schedule that's starting to resemble a light restoration job!

[Stuart02]

I haven't found anyone willing to do the on car balancing thing, most are very dismissive.

I have had the rear struts and one of the front replaced with no change in the shuddering.

[Graeme]

Have the rims been swapped front to rear to check the effect? If a rim is out of round it may balance OK but hopefully the operator would have commented. However as the rims/tyres are quite wide, being only slightly out of round might be enough to cause the vibration on your vehicle.

[Stuart02]

Have the rims been swapped front to rear to check the effect? If a rim is out of round it may balance OK but hopefully the operator would have commented. However as the rims/tyres are quite wide, being only slightly out of round might be enough to cause the vibration on your vehicle.

yeah, new Coopers didn't get rid of it and recently I tried a set of borrowed 19s as well and it was still there.

Should have mentioned new discs as well.

Has anyone heard of driveshafts getting out of balance on these cars?

[LRD414]

Has anyone heard of driveshafts getting out of balance on these cars?

Yes pretty sure someone had one replaced under warranty due to being out of balance. I think it was Nicky but can't be 100% sure.

Cheers,
Scott

Edit: it was a drive shaft uni joint issue that he had.
Drive shaft centre bearing mount has also been suggested as a possible cause of drive line vibration in past threads.

[BigJon]

I haven't found anyone willing to do the on car balancing thing, most are very dismissive.

I have had the rear struts and one of the front replaced with no change in the shuddering.

Why only one of the front ones? Shock absorbers should be replaced as pairs.

[Stuart02]

Why only one of the front ones? Shock absorbers should be replaced as pairs.

Would have certainly been best, but at $1320 for one strut... having spent about $15k on car mechanical stuff in the last financial year, that pretty much broke the piggy bank :)

It's just as well the air suspension is good, cos I got an entire decent quality 2" lift for my work Pajero for that kind of money!

[BigJon]

From where did you source the strut? I am pretty sure they can be had for a much better price than that...

[Stuart02]

From where did you source the strut? I am pretty sure they can be had for a much better price than that...

Independent in Melbourne... it was of the same magnitude as the two rears I had done not long before, so I admit I didn't shop around. Are the TDV8 dynamic response ones more expensive?

[BigJon]

PM me your VIN and I will find a price.