FFRR - Alternator or battery failure?

[rar110]

Looks like the alternator or battery may have died in the RRV tdv8.

Here are the symptoms:
* battery went flat while waiting for tranny repair (sitting for 3 mths);
* a week later battery had insufficient charge to start when on camping trip, was able to jump start it ok;
* a week later (today) after lots of driving, I start it and suspension fault comes up, but goes ok so drive a short distance;
* I get in and start it again no problem, suspension fault comes up again but drives ok;
* I get to my destination, sit in the car with it idling while talking on phone. After about 10 min of engine running the ABS warning, DSC warning and park brake warning all start flashing and centre screen goes blank.
* turn car off, turn key again, nothing from starter, same warnings on dash;
* come back in 10 min, turns over just but no start.

NRMA on way to test battery and alternator voltage.

[rar110]

Also, battery was replaced in January 2014, so not yet 2 years old.

[chaybra]

chances are battery, if it was the alternator, the alternator light would have come on presumably.

[Blknight.aus]

Im going to go wirh bad connection on thw earth side somewhere and that battery is probably stuffed by now bit mofht come back on a rejuvination styles charger

[rar110]

Thanks for the replies.

Connections at the battery end are ok.

NRMA volt tested it before and after starting it. About 11v before starting it and fluctuated between 11v & under 12v after starting.

We are about 4 hrs from hm. The plan is to get a battery charger and another charger from hm as a back up. Local LR dealer wanted $1300 for alternator plus 6 hrs fitting. So will attempt to drive it hm.

[drivesafe]

I would shop around for an alternator.

I got mine rebuilt for $380 but fitting was a killer.

Contact Justic and see if he can be of some assistance.

BTW, even with a known fully charged battery, I wouldn’t leave an RR for more than a week without maintaining a charge in the cranking battery.

[rar110]

New one from my mechanics supplier is $780 incl. It sat at repairer for 3 mths. I look forward to getting your DBS with Anderson plug.

Tim how do you think I will go driving 4 1/2 hrs after recharging the battery with a smart charger?

[drivesafe]

Mate. I would not try much more than 2 hours with a fully charge GOOD battery, and with your battery, an hour would be it's limit.

Be aware, if your battery gets too low, your motor will shutdown.

This will leave you with no brakes and no steering.

Been there, done that!!!!!!

So take care.

[Blknight.aus]

for extra insurance see if you can get a loan of a decent 12v battery tank.

you can then either run it in parallel through one of the aux sockets and monitor your voltage (this will buy you some time) or keep in fully charged so that if it all goes wrong you can have a couple of goes at a start and maybe 10 minutes worth of driving to get yourself out of trouble.

[austeve01]

New one from my mechanics supplier is $780 incl. It sat at repairer for 3 mths. I look forward to getting your DBS with Anderson plug.

Tim how do you think I will go driving 4 1/2 hrs after recharging the battery with a smart charger?

Hi Pete

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Had a similar thing happen to my D3 just after I bought it and it was found to be not only the starting battery that had had it's day but also the aux battery. They were replaced & everything back to normal. About 6 mths later similar happenings again & this time the alternator was the culprit. Replaced and everything fine. It was then I got a DBS from Traxide and a Ctek smart charger and every week would connect it through the Anderson plug. I've also just had fitted the DT90-L322 DBS kit & am following the same protocol with the RRTDV8. Seems to be working a treat. When I check voltage in starting battery after a smart charging cycle it is never less than 12.9v. I do this more frequently when the vehicle has only done short trips. Don't know much about auto electrics but this seems to be working for me. Have a safe return.

Cheers
Steve

[rar110]

for extra insurance see if you can get a loan of a decent 12v battery tank. you can then either run it in parallel through one of the aux sockets and monitor your voltage (this will buy you some time) or keep in fully charged so that if it all goes wrong you can have a couple of goes at a start and maybe 10 minutes worth of driving to get yourself out of trouble.

I like this idea. I have a big battery and jumper leads on way.

[rar110]

Hi Pete Sorry to hear of your troubles. Had a similar thing happen to my D3 just after I bought it and it was found to be not only the starting battery that had had it's day but also the aux battery. They were replaced & everything back to normal. About 6 mths later similar happenings again & this time the alternator was the culprit. Replaced and everything fine. It was then I got a DBS from Traxide and a Ctek smart charger and every week would connect it through the Anderson plug. I've also just had fitted the DT90-L322 DBS kit & am following the same protocol with the RRTDV8. Seems to be working a treat. When I check voltage in starting battery after a smart charging cycle it is never less than 12.9v. I do this more frequently when the vehicle has only done short trips. Don't know much about auto electrics but this seems to be working for me. Have a safe return. Cheers Steve

Ta. It's booked in for repair next week.

Mine was sitting around the same voltage last week when I tested it. I think I will have to look at getting a ctek, although I have a smart charger.

[rar110]

Mate. I would not try much more than 2 hours with a fully charge GOOD battery, and with your battery, an hour would be it's limit. Be aware, if your battery gets too low, your motor will shutdown. This will leave you with no brakes and no steering. Been there, done that!!!!!! So take care.

Thanks Tim. I'm very mindful of this. It must have been a terrible experience for your wife.

Mine gave a little bit of notice but no alternator warning light. Mine showed EAS failure first, then ABS and ( ! ) warning lights, and then transmission failure, with engine still running.

I have another battery that I hope will fit. First I will charge the current battery and test to see if it holds charge. I will stop and check the battery voltage every hour on the way back to Brisbane.

I also will have a charger to top up the battery if required.

Thanks for the replies.

[Blknight.aus]

keep the old battery, run a rejuvinator style charger on it after checking the fluid levels (or bulging) as appropriate. when the charger is happy its done what it can test the battery, properly full load testing and not just an electronic test if it passes and electronic test (if it fails the electronic test its rooted)

this is an important diagnostic step for your vehicle. if the battery comes back OK then you have a wiring or alternator fault... I've seen an instance where the alternator main fuse was ok when it was cold but as the temp went up and the humidity down the alternators main fuse was not connecting properly.

I can conceive of a few steps between the spinny bit of your alternator and the battery that could give you a similar symptom and confirming that the battery is actually dead and not just flat will help disperse suspicion.

[rar110]

keep the old battery, run a rejuvinator style charger on it after checking the fluid levels (or bulging) as appropriate. when the charger is happy its done what it can test the battery, properly full load testing and not just an electronic test if it passes and electronic test (if it fails the electronic test its rooted) this is an important diagnostic step for your vehicle. if the battery comes back OK then you have a wiring or alternator fault... I've seen an instance where the alternator main fuse was ok when it was cold but as the temp went up and the humidity down the alternators main fuse was not connecting properly. I can conceive of a few steps between the spinny bit of your alternator and the battery that could give you a similar symptom and confirming that the battery is actually dead and not just flat will help disperse suspicion.

Ta Dave.

It's on a smart charger now. It was sitting at 11.5v before charging.

Where's the alternator fuse?

[Graeme]

Where's the alternator fuse?They don't exist on a modern LR.

[rar110]

The charger finished its recondition process. It's now sitting at 13.3v.

I'm now doing the other battery.

[drivesafe]

Hi again rar110, roughly, where are you and when are you going to head back home?

[rar110]

Hi again rar110, roughly, where are you and when are you going to head back home?

We are at Wooli SE Grafton, about 4 1/2 hrs from Wynnum. I'm heading back tomorrow on my own.

The RRV starts and runs ok. All warnings and messages gone.

[drivesafe]

I know where Wooli is and unfortunately, the is no electronics store nearby.

I was going to suggest you try to get one of those cigarette socket type volt meters so you could keep a constant eye on your voltage.

OK then, just make sure you battery voltage does not get below 11.8v

You will probably get fault messages once it's below 12.2v just ignore them.

Your system should not fail even if the voltage gets down to 11.0v but it can take just a few minutes to discharge the battery from 11.8v to below 11.0v, so keep an eye on the voltage.

If you can get your hands on some speaker wire, you could set up a jumper lead, connecting from your battery into the cab and have your multi meter on all the time.

MAKE SURE IT IS NOT NEAR ANY SHARP EDGES!

Or if you have something with a cigarette plug on a lead, you could cut this up and use it to connect to your multi meter. You can always reconnect the lead once you are home.

No matter what you do, it is imperative that you watch the voltage.

[rar110]

I know where Wooli is and unfortunately, the is no electronics store nearby. I was going to suggest you try to get one of those cigarette socket type volt meters so you could keep a constant eye on your voltage. OK then, just make sure you battery voltage does not get below 11.8v You will probably get fault messages once it's below 12.2v just ignore them. Your system should not fail even if the voltage gets down to 11.0v but it can take just a few minutes to discharge the battery from 11.8v to below 11.0v, so keep an eye on the voltage. If you can get your hands on some speaker wire, you could set up a jumper lead, connecting from your battery into the cab and have your multi meter on all the time. MAKE SURE IT IS NOT NEAR ANY SHARP EDGES! Or if you have something with a cigarette plug on a lead, you could cut this up and use it to connect to your multi meter. You can always reconnect the lead once you are home. No matter what you do, it is imperative that you watch the voltage.

Great idea. I'll try to lever out a cig lighter and fix the multimeter probes to the terminals. I have some electrical tape.

[Blknight.aus]

The charger finished its recondition process. It's now sitting at 13.3v.

I'm now doing the other battery.


stick a 25A load on the battery and time how long it takes to get to 10.5V. that many minutes should equal your RC rating.

then charge it again.

this is the most important factor for the situation you're in.

if you can do that 3 times in short order and the time stays within about 10% of the batteries nominated RC then the battery is OK.
20% is workable
50% is as good as cactus but will provide some use as a backup battery/light duty battery

temp will effect your results you want to do the test at 25 degrees

[drivesafe]

Now for some basics.

If you can, leave the battery charger connected to your cranking battery till you are about to start the motor.

While you have the charger connected, turn everything off in your RR, like interior lights, A/C, entertainment system.

From memory, turning off the entertainment system will also turn Bluetooth off. If Bluetooth remains on, check your manual and turn it off, it is power hungry.

Have your RR packed and ready to go while the charger is still connected.

Just before you start your motor, remove the charger, start your motor and go.

BEST OF LUCK!

[rar110]

Thanks again. I'm not sure how I would put a 25 amp load on the battery. I will read up about shutting off the Bluetooth.

How do I get the cig lighter out, does it just lever out from the top. My preference is to use the cig lighter in the centre console or ash tray.

The battery is currently sitting steady at 12.3v with the motor running.

My plan is to put the other battery in the cargo area and connect it to the end point of the heavy +ve lead behind the panel and an earth point to support the main battery. I will use some very heavy jumper leads I had made up with insulated alligator clamps.

[Graeme]

I suggest that you disable the air suspension to prevent it lowering when the voltage gets too low and will also save some battery draw. Remove the 20A suspension fuse and there should also be 2 x 5A suspension system fuses so remove those to stop annoying 50 kph warning messages. Only the 5A ignition feed fuse for the suspension ecu needs to be removed but no harm removing both as the 2nd one only protects the compressor relay sense wire in the event of it shorting to earth somewhere.

[BigJon]

I replaced my alternator a few months ago at about 90 000km as a preventive measure. They are known to fail at about that mileage. It is not a 15 minute excercise to replace, lots of stuff to remove from the engine bay including draining engine coolant, etc.

[rar110]

I found an easy access point to under the two cig lighter sockets at the rear of the centre console. The panel below the sockets pulls away to reveal the + & - wires. The plugs and spade for the + & - are also different to help ensure the correct wire is fitted to the correct terminal.

I'll fit the multimeter to these wires to monitor the voltage.

[Blknight.aus]

the 25A load thing is for when you get back and test the battery not something to do before you go....

if the battery comes up ok then you know you're looking for a vehicle related fault.

[Graeme]

I expect Drivesafe's suggestion was to get a voltmeter that plugs into the lighter socket, not to replace the socket. They're readily available.

EG http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-In-1-Car-Auto-12V-Red-Blue-Dual-Display-LED-Digital-Thermometer-Voltmeter-OK-/261588265435?hash=item3ce7e029db

[drivesafe]

Hi Graeme, thats what I was going to suggest rar110 get.

Wooli is a nice little village but its in the middle of nowhere, so he couldn't get one before he sets off today.

His Cig socket voltage source will give him the info he needs, and removes having to stop to get a voltage reading.

I hoped you would reply and give him some more power saving ideas, good one.

We can no only wait and see if he gets home OK!

[rar110]

Well it started off badly. The live reading on the multimeter said 11.3v with the motor running. Within a few minutes it dropped to under 11v so I pulled over not wanting to repeat Mrs Drivesafe's experience, and then the dash warnings started. I parked and turned it off.

I later went to turn it on again to check the voltage and everything electrical is dead. Even the ignition key wouldn't turn. I hooked up the other battery just to open the tail gate. I won't attempt to hook up another battery. I'll risk killing that battery too.

Waiting now for a tow. Thankfully it happened on this road rather than the M1.

Thanks everyone for the great information and suggestions. The live reading with a multimeter worked a treat. Owning one of these cars without some basic electrical knowledge and access to info would be a nightmare. Anticipating and recognising an alternator failure is also some comfort. The alternator has never been replaced as far as I know so it lasted pretty well.

[drivesafe]

So what is happening now?

I was going to suggest you disconnect the alternator but I have no idea if this would cause other unrelated problems.

If you still want to try to drive home, see if there is any problems with disconnecting the positive cable from the alternator but be aware, the cable will be live and will need to be insulated and secured out of the way.

I do not know how to do this, but if it is viable, maybe Graeme can give you some instructions!

[Graeme]

I don't know if this vehicle's alternator cable is wired directly from the battery or from the starter motor so can't suggest anything.

[rar110]

It's on a tilt tray heading hm.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I couldn't get a hand to the alternator to confirm the plug was secured.

[rar110]

Another big (330km) tow paid by RACQ. Two big tows in the last 4 mths. Last one was 250 km. Thank you Ultimate care.

Home again. The RRV's reputation with the family has taken a beating.

[rar110]

I put the battery on the smart charger over night. Initially the battery seemed unresponsive and the charger indicated it wasn't charging. I disconnected it this morning after I found it on float mode. This arvo the battery is still holding 13v. I might be lucky and avoided killing the battery.

[CBH25]

Glad to see you got home OK. RACQ Ultimate is a prerequisite!

These beasts eat batteries and alternators, we've all been through at least one of each. If you haven't - its inevitable, and the alternators are expensive. I have an alternator sitting here for a spare (sourced from England web at a good price) so I don't have to pay a fortune in an emergency.

I have TWO of those little cigarette lighter V thingo's in my car full time, its great peace of mind. One is in the front where it reads the whole system Voltage (plus the alternator when running), and the one in the back cargo area shows me the voltage of my rear battery connected up with Drivesafes cool piece of hardware connected.

Whenever i go past my car (which sits for a week at a time often) and the rear cargo area LCD is off, I know its low on battery and needs a run.

[rar110]

Glad to see you got home OK. RACQ Ultimate is a prerequisite! These beasts eat batteries and alternators, we've all been through at least one of each. If you haven't - its inevitable, and the alternators are expensive. I have an alternator sitting here for a spare (sourced from England web at a good price) so I don't have to pay a fortune in an emergency. I have TWO of those little cigarette lighter V thingo's in my car full time, its great peace of mind. One is in the front where it reads the whole system Voltage (plus the alternator when running), and the one in the back cargo area shows me the voltage of my rear battery connected up with Drivesafes cool piece of hardware connected. Whenever i go past my car (which sits for a week at a time often) and the rear cargo area LCD is off, I know its low on battery and needs a run.

I've got a Traxide kit on order.

And yes I need to get a voltage monitoring system.

[Blknight.aus]

if you know a good electronics wiz...

get one of the tricolour led ones that provides red yellow green get a sparky smarty to mod it so the lights come on at the voltages you want and cut out completely below 11.1 that way when your camping at night you can just look for the right coloured glow.

alternatively I've started recomending the combo usb/voltage indicator units such as
Surface Mount USB Twin AND Volt Meter Caravan 4WD Camper Trailer | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/121186433501?limghlpsr=true&hlpht=true&ul_noapp=true&hlpv=2&chn=ps&lpid=107&ops=true&viphx=1) for permanant install and

http://www.earlybirdsavings.com/picture/ACA015/view-ACA015-Green-Car-Battery-Cigarette-Lighter-Electric-Voltage-Meter-Tester-with-USB-Port-3.jpg

or

http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v2/32330195572_4/Universal-auto-volt-gauge-interior-temperature-display-USB-charging-function-free-shipping.jpg

for temp jobs.

I like the ones with the temp gauge if youre going to put it inside the same box as the battery or inverters so you have a rough idea of the operating temp of the cabinet/battery the extra USB is something to watch as it does draw a fraction of an amp when idle but you can get the permanent mount ones with a switch for the usb.

[harlie]

It's on a tilt tray heading hm.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I couldn't get a hand to the alternator to confirm the plug was secured.

I started reading this from the start, and this is the first good suggestion I've seen here.

I appreciate all the help and good ideas from Tim and Dave but these trucks are down right dangerous to attempt to drive without electricity - as documented here on AULRO.

The back of a truck is the only safe solution.

Pete, I have a charger with rejuvenation functionality if needed.

[rar110]

Thanks mate. I have a charger with a rejuvenation function. I put it on overnight and it seemed to revive the battery. I get it back this arvo and will keep an eye on battery voltage.

I was concerned about it shutting down like happened to Mrs Drivesafe. So I hooked up a multi meter to a cig lighter power source to monitor voltage while driving, which showed constant voltage drain. I also sent the family home with the in laws in case it didn't get home, and it didn't by about 300km.

[Blknight.aus]

now that its home....

do the load test on the battery, by cobbling together something that puts a constantish draw on the battery like a pair of headlight bulbs. and monitor the battery voltage down to 10.5 as I suggested earlier.

dont worry if you cant get it exactly right in terms of the draw.

If you post up your starting voltage (let the battery sit overnight or for the day off the charger) the volts and amps (or watts) of what your load was and how long it lasted till it hit 10.5v along with the RC number on the battery someone on here should be able to nut out the math for it to give you a rough condition on your battery.

once thats done and you have the battery hooked back up again

get a clamp meter and check the amps draw on all of the +ve leads off of the battery start the car turn on all the stuff you normally turn on and then post that number up for us.. then we can tell you how long you should have been able to drive the car for

If it was an old school vehicle I would have suspected youve fried the regulator, dropped at least one diode in the alternator or at least one complete winding. It might even be the slip ring brushes lifted off.