Accidentally ended up in a State Conservation Area

[DCOA]

So went away for the long weekend doing some 4X4ing and camping at Watagans.

Yesterday we wanted to go for a swim so we were driving around Lake Macquarie trying to find a nice spot and eventually found a trail that lead to the beach Fairly Standard dirt trail that looked well used. So after a few hours swimming a Ranger turns up and tells us we are illegally in a state conservation area and there are no vehicles permitted. We explain that we aren't local and there were NO signs what so ever that said anything of the sort nor any gate across the road.

He explained the road is meant to be blocked by rocks but people move them and that people take the signs down. He took all our details and said we would all likely cop a $300 fine each for being there.

Attached are pictures of where we entered and where we were parked when swimming. I also recorded the whole lot on Dashcam so have that to my advantage also.
Entrance:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84719/IMAG0144.jpg
Where we were
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84719/IMAG0139.jpg

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/84719/vlcsnap-2015-10-05-14h23m09s648.png

I know it can potentially come down to making sure you are in the right area but surely with no signs a fine would be a bit much.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Is that the marmong point / Bolton point area? I seem to recall kicking around there when I lived down that way.

They are big rocks to move. The pictures look like it is fairly well used, and suited for vehicle access. If there are no signs, then what are you to know any better?

I'd await the fine (if it even comes), then go from there.

[crackers]

Yeah, I wouldn't get worked up until you have to. Go in aggressive now and you'll cop a fine for sure. Take it quietly (including just waiting to see if you get a notice) and there's a good chance it'll go away.

[EastFreo]

Beautiful spot. Shame to block off access. Seems to be happening all too often thanks to a combination of over zealous greenies and careless off-roading losers.

[mikehzz]

Beautiful spot. Shame to block off access. Seems to be happening all too often thanks to a combination of over zealous greenies and careless off-roading losers.

More likely it was a combination of careless off-roading losers and irate government employees sick to death of dealing with the consequences and no budget to do so. I'd like someone somewhere to actually name or identify these so called over zealous greenies because they seem to be able to influence government policy far beyond their actual numbers. They also have magical powers to close whatever tracks they want. Or.......it could be we live in a capitalist democracy where money is the biggest mover and shaker of what remains open and what gets closed.

Let's name and shame, over zealous greenie (individual or group) and track they closed. If a track gets closed, ask who did it, and why they ordered the closure. You have to know your enemy. A faceless bunch of mythical over zealous greenies isn't going to cut it.

[Redback]

No signs anywhere, no gate, can't fine you, should also be signs at the end also and the fact you're not a local, he's full of hot air.

If this is where you were, there's nothing to say no vehicles

Lake Macquarie State Conservation Area | Visitor info | NSW National Parks (http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/Lake-Macquarie-State-Conservation-Area/Visitor-Info)

[cafe latte]

I would have told him that he was welcome to take my licence plate down, but I would have told him to get the police if he wanted any other info ie name and address as there was no signs to indicate you were in the wrong area. No way would I give my detail to anyone, specially not an idiot working for Parks (yes I know a few).
Chris

[Rolly]

Even if fined , there would be a Administrative appeals process? Would seem unreasonable to expect you to comply with a sign that wasn't there...

[Eevo]

ignorance is no excuse... or so they say.

it sounds unreasonable

[Xtreme]

No signs anywhere, no gate, can't fine you, should also be signs at the end also and the fact you're not a local, he's full of hot air.

If this is where you were, there's nothing to say no vehicles

Lake Macquarie State Conservation Area | Visitor info | NSW National Parks (http://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/Lake-Macquarie-State-Conservation-Area/Visitor-Info)

Applies from Thu 25 Sep 2014, 3.46pm. Last reviewed: Thu 1 Oct 2015, 1.58pm.

Closed areas: Crangan Bay

The Crangan Bay section of Lake Macquarie State Conservation Area is closed pending rehabilitation of the former coal chitter fire site. For safety reasons there is no public access to this area until further notice. For more information, please contact the NPWS Lakes area office on (02) 4972 9000 or visit the NSW National Parks safety page for park safety guidelines.

The above was taken from the link you gave Baz.
I'm not sure if this is the area visited by the OP but also agree with you re lack of onsite signage.

[Redback]

Applies from Thu 25 Sep 2014, 3.46pm. Last reviewed: Thu 1 Oct 2015, 1.58pm.

Closed areas: Crangan Bay

The Crangan Bay section of Lake Macquarie State Conservation Area is closed pending rehabilitation of the former coal chitter fire site. For safety reasons there is no public access to this area until further notice. For more information, please contact the NPWS Lakes area office on (02) 4972 9000 or visit the NSW National Parks safety page for park safety guidelines.

The above was taken from the link you gave Baz.
I'm not sure if this is the area visited by the OP but also agree with you re lack of onsite signage.

Still they need to have signs AND need to keep an eye on them and replace them when they are removed, it's not like they set out to delibrately go where they weren't allowed.

Looking at that entry, I reckon those rocks have been that way for a while, like they have been dumped there ready to be put in place, not moved by someone.

[Lotz-A-Landies]

If NP&WS or NSW Forests want to make a point about an area/road being closed, why do they put a pile of native sandstone boulders?

They should be placing something significant and man made. A chain of concrete road barriers locked together, painted with the NP&WS logo or name and "Area/Road Closed" in big letters on each one. In that case, even if they are moved out of the way the signage still remains.

[Hall]

I had simular episode some years ago at Eldion. I followed Wombat spur track out to the lake. There is a track that is the old road to big river. The end of Wombat spur track conects with this track. There where no signs and no gates to indicate that the old road was of limits. I had traveled down this tack. A whole other story, the Delica I was driving blew the front diff. The parks rangers turned up and informed me that I was not meant to be there. I pointed out the lack of sinage, gates and maps that indicated the old road being open. They let the matter of the closed track go and gave my son and I lift back to Eildon. I think mainly because I played nice. Great that you have visual evidence, wait and see if they follow up with a fine, then dispute it.
Cheers Hall

[vnx205]

I had a similar experience about 30 years ago in the hills east of Tumut.

We had driven most of the day at a quite leisurely pace along a track starting at the western end. As we reached the eastern end of the track about to join the main road, there was a log across the track and a sign visible from the road indicating that the track was closed.

There had been no signs at the western end. Backtracking wasn't an option, but driving around the log to get back onto the road was easy enough.

Surely if a track is closed, it needs signs at both ends!

[Toxic_Avenger]

If NP&WS or NSW Forests want to make a point about an area/road being closed, why do they put a pile of native sandstone boulders?

They should be placing something significant and man made. A chain of concrete road barriers locked together, painted with the NP&WS logo or name and "Area/Road Closed" in big letters on each one. In that case, even if they are moved out of the way the signage still remains.

The Bolton Point end of the Lake Macquarie State Conservation Area (IIRC) is locked up tight with Steel Bollards and wire cables forming a fence along the roadside. So yes, (if this is in fact the area we are talking about) the effort of the boulders is indeed a half-arsed job of keeping people out.

[Bushie]

I would have told him that he was welcome to take my licence plate down, but I would have told him to get the police if he wanted any other info ie name and address as there was no signs to indicate you were in the wrong area. No way would I give my detail to anyone, specially not an idiot working for Parks (yes I know a few).
Chris

And that could get you a $1100 fine in NSW - failure to supply name and address under S 157 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act.

Martyn

[Pateyw]

S 157 means jack ---- they need to call the police if details are not given .
You are by law protected to only release details to police or by free will

[mikehzz]

S 157 means jack ---- they need to call the police if details are not given .
You are by law protected to only release details to police or by free will

Correct, but I think they have the power to arrest you if you don't comply.

Protection of the Environment Operations Act 1997 No 156

204 Power of authorised officers to demand name and address

(1) Name and address to be given if offence suspected
An authorised officer may require a person whom the authorised officer suspects on reasonable grounds to have offended or to be offending against this Act or the regulations to state his or her full name and residential address.

(2) Name and address to be given in connection with noise
If an authorised officer forms the opinion on reasonable grounds that a noise control notice or a noise abatement direction may be issued under Part 8.6 against a person, the authorised officer may require the person to state the person's full name and residential address.

(2A) Proof of name and address
An authorised officer may request a person who is required under this section to state his or her full name and residential address to provide proof of the name and address. It is not an offence under section 211 to fail to comply with any such request.

(3) Power of arrest
A person who, being required to do so under this section:

(a) refuses to state his or her name or residential address, or

(b) states a name or residential address that in the opinion of the authorised officer is false,

may without any other warrant than this Act be apprehended by the authorised officer and taken before a Magistrate or authorised officer within the meaning of the Criminal Procedure Act 1986 to be dealt with according to law.

(4) Bail
A Magistrate or authorised officer before whom a person is taken under subsection (3) may grant the person bail in accordance with the Bail Act 1978 as if the person were accused of an offence.

(5) Maximum penalty
The maximum penalty for an offence under section 211 in connection with a requirement under this section is 100 penalty units despite anything to the contrary in that section.

[AndyG]

Why does this remind me of Germany in the 30's :confused:

Now, how many government bodies can enter your property without permission,

Let's not start on those who can read our metadata even today

[DCOA]

Yeah we had nothing to hide we were all just having a swim so we all gave our details and had a very civil chat. Didn't even think anything of it when he turned up. Was walking back to my landy to grab my phone and saw him, didn't think anything of it til he came over and started asking questions.

He even said we were good about it and he would normally just issue fines on the spot if people started getting aggressive or swearing.

[POD]

Why does this remind me of Germany in the 30's :confused:



Perhaps because you have a limited understanding of what took place in Germany in the 1930s.

[Ausfree]

Perhaps because you have a limited understanding of what took place in Germany in the 1930s.

Yeah, I just finished reading a book called "Hitlers Banker". Mr Hitler was NOT a nice man.Even threw his own financial adviser in jail.

[POD]

Correct, but I think they have the power to arrest you if you don't comply.

Protection of the Environment Operations Act 1997 No 156

204 Power of authorised officers to demand name and address

(1) Name and address to be given if offence suspected
An authorised officer may require a person whom the authorised officer suspects on reasonable grounds to have offended or to be offending against this Act or the regulations to state his or her full name and residential address.

(2) Name and address to be given in connection with noise
If an authorised officer forms the opinion on reasonable grounds that a noise control notice or a noise abatement direction may be issued under Part 8.6 against a person, the authorised officer may require the person to state the person's full name and residential address.

(2A) Proof of name and address
An authorised officer may request a person who is required under this section to state his or her full name and residential address to provide proof of the name and address. It is not an offence under section 211 to fail to comply with any such request.

(3) Power of arrest
A person who, being required to do so under this section:

(a) refuses to state his or her name or residential address, or

(b) states a name or residential address that in the opinion of the authorised officer is false,

may without any other warrant than this Act be apprehended by the authorised officer and taken before a Magistrate or authorised officer within the meaning of the Criminal Procedure Act 1986 to be dealt with according to law.

(4) Bail
A Magistrate or authorised officer before whom a person is taken under subsection (3) may grant the person bail in accordance with the Bail Act 1978 as if the person were accused of an offence.

(5) Maximum penalty
The maximum penalty for an offence under section 211 in connection with a requirement under this section is 100 penalty units despite anything to the contrary in that section.


As someone who works in a role that also has powers of arrest or apprehension in certain circumstances, I'd be very surprised if any Parks employees would ever actually exercise this power without police presence. Whilst the police are provided with both the appropriate training and the necessary equipment to deal with aggression and violence, the Parks people will not want to put themselves in that situation.
However if you dig your heels in and force the Parks guys to get the police involved, you would quickly find that the police will not be on your side.

If this were me I'd provide all the necessary details to the parks guy then contest the matter if a fine is issued.
On any penalty notice, there is usually a section that tells you how to appeal if you want to contest the fine; this will result in someone in a penalties office having a look at the fine and deciding whether it has merit. They will then likely either confirm or withdraw the penalty notice.
If the penalty notice is upheld at this stage, you have the option of having the matter heard in court. Refuse the fine again at this stage, it will then go to the desk of someone with more seniority who will decide whether the court is likely to uphold the fine. If they think the fine will not stand up in court, they will then drop the fine.
In a case like this where you have photographic evidence of the track not being signposted or effectively blocked, and where there is precedent with other closed tracks being signposted and having barriers in place, I reckon you could effectively argue that the 'Reasonable Person' would have assume the track to be a public access track and that the 'Reasonable Person' does not routinely consult lists of track closures before going for a Sunday drive.
I would be very surprised if the matter would make it to court, as it would have too high a likelihood of being dismissed by a magistrate.

[cafe latte]

And that could get you a $1100 fine in NSW - failure to supply name and address under S 157 of the National Parks and Wildlife Act.

Martyn

I would take my chances, I doubt any parks employee would press any issue without police as they are going to need police involved to make anything stick. If a Parkie got silly I would for sure ask for the police or even call them myself especially in circumstances like this one where they clearly dont have a leg to stand on.
Chris

[Gordie]

I would take my chances, I doubt any parks employee would press any issue without police as they are going to need police involved to make anything stick. If a Parkie got silly I would for sure ask for the police or even call them myself especially in circumstances like this one where they clearly dont have a leg to stand on.
Chris
If you strike an over zealous parks employee, this could turn to crap on you. PODs above advice is the best...cooperate, be nice, explain the situation, any reasonable ranger is going to see your predicament...and will most likely just caution you. If he doesn't, and sends a fine, then it is time to contest it, as per PODs advice, courts operate on 'what the average person sees as reasonable', and any prosecutor worth his salt, isn't going to proceed when an 'offender' has been reasonably unaware that they were offending. If you start off aggressive, it can only get worse from there.

[cafe latte]

If you strike an over zealous parks employee, this could turn to crap on you. PODs above advice is the best...cooperate, be nice, explain the situation, any reasonable ranger is going to see your predicament...and will most likely just caution you. If he doesn't, and sends a fine, then it is time to contest it, as per PODs advice, courts operate on 'what the average person sees as reasonable', and any prosecutor worth his salt, isn't going to proceed when an 'offender' has been reasonably unaware that they were offending. If you start off aggressive, it can only get worse from there.

Of course you are polite and explain your situation, but if he still wants to take your name and address and tells you you are going to get a fine it is time to protect yourself and that is time for the police.
Chris

[85 county]

interesting thread
learnt a bit

not that i have ever been approached or knowingly been in a no go area. but i can easily see how this could innocently happen.

this is a land rover forum an as such a 4x4 forum. there are plenty of threads about on hoons ripping up parks and tracks etc.

i would imagine anyone working in and around such or Simla areas would have read the same storeys if not witnessed the same.

if a land-rover owner was to behave in the same manor we would condemn them.

but a parks ranger or other such person is not interested in our land rovers just that we are in a 4x4 and the wrong area.

give any one any flack in that role and you would be automatic relegated to the same hoon category as the idiots we condemn.

a nice civilised approach is all that is needed. i suspect that the ranger that approached the original poster was in the back of his mind tense, expecting to cop a bit of flack from yet another 4x4 idot. you probably made his day hence just the warning, which he has no choice in issuing.

NB he has choice in issuing a worning or a fine

[Gordie]

Of course you are polite and explain your situation, but if he still wants to take your name and address and tells you you are going to get a fine it is time to protect yourself and that is time for the police.
Chris
And the likely result, would be a defect notice on your vehicle, to the inspection station, seeing as the police were dragged away from other things to attend! The police aren't going to make him withdraw his fine, they are going to tell you that you should have challenged it through the proper channels. And in the meantime, you have made the ranger even more intent on fining you. I have friends in enforcement roles, and you wouldn't believe how many stories there are of people who were going to get a caution...talking themselves into a fine with their mouth and attitude!!

[85 county]

Of course you are polite and explain your situation, but if he still wants to take your name and address and tells you you are going to get a fine it is time to protect yourself and that is time for the police.
Chris

How stupid is that!!!! drag some cops away from there coffee and doughnuts to what to them is the middle of no where. and you think they are going to stick up for you??

[cafe latte]

And the likely result, would be a defect notice on your vehicle, to the inspection station, seeing as the police were dragged away from other things to attend! The police aren't going to make him withdraw his fine, they are going to tell you that you should have challenged it through the proper channels. And in the meantime, you have made the ranger even more intent on fining you. I have friends in enforcement roles, and you wouldn't believe how many stories there are of people who were going to get a caution...talking themselves into a fine with their mouth and attitude!!
I doubt I would get a defect notice on a brand new Defender.. As a first officer in my Brigade I have often called the Police (last time in the middle of the night) to attend remote locations of suspected arson. Last time the guy was charged as he admitted it in front of the Police. I find the police I have met with to be very tolerant and neutral. If I was being threatened by someone with a fine when I have done nothing wrong and they have not displayed the correct signage then yes i would ask for the police to be present. Parks can issue all the fines they want, but if the law is on your side I cant see them needing to be payed. The treasurer of my brigade worked for Parks for a long time and has just retired. I will ask him what the actual law is.
Chris

[Redback]

I doubt I would get a defect notice on a brand new Defender.. As a first officer in my Brigade I have often called the Police (last time in the middle of the night) to attend remote locations of suspected arson. Last time the guy was charged as he admitted it in front of the Police. I find the police I have met with to be very tolerant and neutral. If I was being threatened by someone with a fine when I have done nothing wrong and they have not displayed the correct signage then yes i would ask for the police to be present. Parks can issue all the fines they want, but if the law is on your side I cant see them needing to be payed. The treasurer of my brigade worked for Parks for a long time and has just retired. I will ask him what the actual law is.
Chris

Law would be different in QLD, this incident is in NSW and POD has pointed out the correct way to proceed, how do I know this, lets say I know someone that worked for NPWS NSW for 22yrs;)

[85 county]

I doubt I would get a defect notice on a brand new Defender..
Chris


HA HA the guy 4 doors up the road has just left, he got a defect on his puma, 9 months old and bog stock, squeaky brakes.

but he did admit that he argued with the cop and he is a bit of a plonker, i think hes a fireman as well, cut lunch sort.