Puma 2.4 coolant loss, cracked head?

[MLD]

Wise people, the questions first, the symptoms second.

Q1 - Has anyone heard of such a situation that a head can be cracked showing symptoms as described?

Q2 - is anyone aware if the Ford Transit head is compatible. I am aware that LR modified the engine to suit the 4wd but i'm not sure if that included the head or just the block.

Symptoms - in June while crossing the Blue Mountains the head temp on OBD reader climbed to 109 deg C for about 20 to 30 sec on a steep hill. I pulled up at the crest to let it cool down and continued keeping a keen eye on the head temp. A few times the head temp crept up over 100 in the Blue Mountains. For the remainder of the 5,500 km trip I drove to the maintain the head temp below 100 deg C but was losing about 200 ml of coolant a day. Driving conditions were highway, fast dirt roads and the Simpson desert.

Since then i've mainly driven locally with only a few journeys on the highway. Under local driving conditions i don't use coolant. It appears i lose coolant mainly under highway or heavy load conditions.

It's been pressured tested for 30 minutes and all coolant and heater hoses have been checked with no obvious leak. The coolant has been tested with that blue liquid that changes colour with exhaust gas present with a negative result. The mechanic suggested that i have a cracked head that is expanding only at and above a certain temp (i assuming under the type of conditions on the highway or sand driving).

I don't really want to be pulling the head off without being confident that it's a problem with the head. I also want to avoid pulling the head off, then to find its the head and then have to source a new head (i could buy a new head from Turner Engineering out of the UK for about $3,500 landed). If it's definitely the head, then i'll bite the bullet and buy a new one ready to be bolted on without delay.

A work colleague suggested i drive it down to the dealer and trade it in for a new one. It was a long explanation that sourcing a new 130 and converting the god bits over is problematic.

MLD

[n plus one]

Can you clarify the source of your temps in the first instance?

I'm assuming a scanguage? If so, are you reading CHT (head temp) or CWT (water temp)?

The over temp coolant limp mode cuts in at 116 degrees CWT - 109 CWT is hot but not dangerously so, 109 CHT is not really hot at all.

For info (but potentially not your issue as you have had the system pressure tested) two common coolant loss points in Pumas are:

A) the expansion cap (cheap to replace); and
B) the heater coolant switch - which often leaks when turned to hot on the firewall side of the valve (and is therefore hard to spot. It's also expensive).

Also, in terms of determining if you have an actual leak, it appears some TD5s always run an inch or so below the cold fill line - and expel coolant through the expansion cap when filled to the cool mark. Not sure if Pumas are the same or not?

As an aside, you can quickly check your coolant levels in a Puna while driving - just flick your heater on, if it blows hot the levels aren't too low, if they are coolant doesn't get up to the heater matrix.

It appears that I've got a similar issue to you at the moment but diagnosis is proving somewhat difficult - unfortunately I never really spent much time monitoring coolant levels previously so I (and I suspect you?) don't have an effective situation-normal baseline for coolant levels to pin any analysis I too.

I'm treading cautiously as paranoia often sets in when HGs are mentioned and rational decision making goes out the window! :)

I think Chook's Puma had these kind of symptoms but was actually also clearly over heating (limp mode, etc) - perhaps he will chime in as his issue was actually a HG (but from memory he had overheating issues for an extended period long before chnaging the HG).

Perhaps we both have the (very) early signs of HG failure - I better start saving for that 3./ Ranger motor!

FWIW, I've seen a couple of heads pulled overseas to find no problem - I bet that feels good...

I'll be watching this thread with interest!

[MLD]

Thanks n plus one,

Scan gauge measuring CwT. I didn't appreciate the ECU measured both water and head temp. I, probably mistakenly, thought that the ECU measured the head temp and the scan gauge showed that value as head water temp (the CWT value). I'll have a look at the scan gauge manual tonight.

I used to check my coolant regular and the level never budged before the temp spike i described. I was in the habit of a regular check because i had a cracked head in my previous TD5.

There is no coolant residue on the exterior of the expansion bottle. While not conclusive, i would expect residue on the exterior indicating escaping liquid.

Triumph Rover Spares in SA spares suggested a cracked port if its not showing up with an exhaust gas test. Not sure if its scare mungering but the fella said if unattended can lead to a capoot engine.

Whether a capoot engine is a risk or not, a dodgy head is not a problem i want to have to worry about touring in remote areas.

bloody defender is lining up the problems of late. And none are cheap or easy to fix.

MLD

[n plus one]

Hmmm, yep you will get residue on the expansion bottle if it's leaking out the cap (IME).

It's worth noting that these things have an EGR cooler, which appear to be notorious for leaking in Transits. I'd want to be certain coolant wasn't leaking from a crack it in while hot before I pulled the head.

I completely take your point re remote travel, however it seems these girls typically let the HGs go slowly and steadily ( still wouldn't head off down the CSR solo without knowing it was ok though!).

PS there was a complete new donk on Fleabay the other day for $6,500...

[MLD]

It's worth noting that these things have an EGR cooler, which appear to be notorious for leaking in Transits. I'd want to be certain coolant wasn't leaking from a crack it in while hot before I pulled the head.



It was pressurised for 30 minutes at idle which should have shown up a leak in the EGR or anywhere else in the system.

Thanks for thinking outside the box.

If i was forced to buy a new donk, i'd increase the capacity. The 3.2 TDCi is an obvious choice. Even the TDV6 2.7ltr would be an improvement. But i'm not wishing that decision and expense.

MLD

[Toxic_Avenger]

It's been pressured tested for 30 minutes and all coolant and heater hoses have been checked with no obvious leak. The coolant has been tested with that blue liquid that changes colour with exhaust gas present with a negative result. The mechanic suggested that i have a cracked head that is expanding only at and above a certain temp (i assuming under the type of conditions on the highway or sand driving).


Just food for thought, but is it a leak at the head gasket coolant gallery to oil gallery a possibility? Was any investigation made into this possible loss?

I've heard of head gasket failures where the engine oil becomes a brown, milkshake-like emulsion contaminated with coolant. This could be another source of coolant loss... but you'd likely notice a loss of 200ml/day into the oil pan.

[clive22]

Hi

For what is worth my 130 was loosing a bit of coolant, heater on circuit was slow to respond. The other day in 35 deg. heat blew all the coolant out together with a lot of oil.

Its just out a warranty by a few weeks so it went to the dealer. He rang me today turns out it (well per them) a failed internal oil cooler pressuring the water system.

No signs of excess temp before or after.

May be worth checking. It was a big city dealer and they have seen no other like this. My googling turned up no such thing. So probably a long shot.

Clive

[jackdef90]

Hmmm, yep you will get residue on the expansion bottle if it's leaking out the cap (IME).

It's worth noting that these things have an EGR cooler, which appear to be notorious for leaking in Transits. I'd want to be certain coolant wasn't leaking from a crack it in while hot before I pulled the head.

I completely take your point re remote travel, however it seems these girls typically let the HGs go slowly and steadily ( still wouldn't head off down the CSR solo without knowing it was ok though!).

PS there was a complete new donk on Fleabay the other day for $6,500...


I'm on my third exp tank cap this ones good it seems, I've had the exp tank changed also as it seemed to me that the seams of the tanks were breaking down (was more a precaution before a trip) I've heard the trick with the caps when they leak is to put a bit of glad wrap over the top before you place the cap on seals it tight.
As somebody said, the 2.4 tdci always sits about a cm or two below the fill to line so maybe don't fill it right up and then see if your still losing coolant.
On my 90 a lot lighter than a 130 the highest I've seen on ultaguage is 96.

[malsgoing130]

Funny thing is I've been researching this as well! I get a distinct hot coolant smell sometimes from the engine bay. LR dealer tested sniffed and said that nothing could be found.
My expansion tank runs at about half full/empty so it's a tiny leak some where, I've looked and can't see a thing, my research shows it could be one of the followings:
1. Expansion tank cap
2. Expansion tank
3. Welsh plug leak
4. Minor chaffing at bottom of radiator hidden by cowling
5. Head gasket leak when engine is hot ie running for a long time between coolant gallery and combustion chamber, so no trace of coolant found.
I think if you can smell it it must be 1 of the first 4 but then again there are 20000 hoses and hose clamps!!!! Hope to find mine before it's too late.
Good luck
Mal

[Brid]

Based on what you've said, I don't think 109C, although too hot, is hot enough to crack the head.

A low cost exercise would be to first re-tension the head. You could then feel your way with it under load to see if it still lost coolant. I've had success with this in the past when an oil SOS showed coolant trace in the oil.

Concentrate on looking for other over-heating reasons. If the head is damaged, something caused it, not likely the head itself. Should be some other trigger for it. Thermostat problems are pretty common? Cooling system scale build up? Fan hub? Radiator hose collapsing? Excessive crankcase sludge? Plenty other as well.

Also check the radiator...if the lower plastic mounting spacers become dislodged, the radiator can rub and develop a perforation which may at first only leak under severe conditions.

Good luck

[MLD]

I should have added to the OP that while on the trip in June we filled the expansion bottle to full and started her up in the morning. After a few min of idle periodic bubbles were coming to the surface. Some bubbles tiny, others a larger bloop. Our preliminary assessment at the time was a head gasket. And the system had not been opened from the day before.

I should also add that the temp spike well over 105deg hasn't happened since. Although I am more vigilant on temp increases easing off once she creeps over 95 deg so it doesn't blow through the 100 marker.

The system is not pressurising enough to blow an expansion cap and there is no oil in the coolant. While still possible those causes are not supported by the evidence.

Thanks Brid, I'll pull the RAVE manual and check the head bolts. I have a new thermostat and had planned to give the cooling system a thorough clean if the head comes off. It has to be done anyway, but hoped to avoid dropping the coolant twice. I agree finding the cause is important. At this stage I'm equally focussed on working out if there is head or head gasket damage.

MLD

[n plus one]

Pretty sure head bolts on the Puma are torque to yield? Imagine this has implications for the possibility of tightening?

Sorry if I'm starting to sound obstructionist!

In the interests of being helpful, I'll note that I can easily achieve water temps (CWT) well north of 100 degrees if I deliberately boost up my 2.4 at low revs in sixth up a big hill. CHT are typically in the order of 10 degrees higher again when I do this.

Double checked my notes and over temp limp mode comes in at 116 degrees CWT. I saw 115 degrees CWT in the scanguage just before this happened to me last time (2 or 3 years ago pushing up the mountains in sweltering heat).

Bubbles are a worry though - but I thought there was no exhaust gas detected in the coolant? If so, perhaps you have a small leak some where that is a) responsible for your coolant loss when the system is hot and b) allowing air to be sucked back into the cooling system as it cools over night?

[Brid]

Forgot to ask if coolant types used have been the same? As mixing types (eg red & green dyed ones) can cause precipitation within the cooling system, sludging & resultant overheating.

[MLD]

Thanks Brid, the coolant is OAT and no sign of mixed colouring.

n plus one - I can't explain the negative result on the exhaust gas test and the bubbles. I do know that in my old TD5 the gas exhaust test came up negative yet the gasket was cactus so I am weary of relying on that test as gospel.

Tracking down any failure in the cooling system is finding a needle in a hay stack. As Malsgoing130 said, so many hoses, clamps and pieces in the system to be a possible cause.

Thanks so far for the comments.

MLD

[Toxic_Avenger]

Just food for thought, but is it a leak at the head gasket coolant gallery to oil gallery a possibility? Was any investigation made into this possible loss?

I've heard of head gasket failures where the engine oil becomes a brown, milkshake-like emulsion contaminated with coolant. This could be another source of coolant loss... but you'd likely notice a loss of 200ml/day into the oil pan.

I think I had a brain fart... usually the oil mixes with the water (oil in radiator) as oil pressure is higher than water pressure.
So yeah... disregard this one.

[labrado]

Thanks Brid, the coolant is OAT and no sign of mixed colouring.

n plus one - I can't explain the negative result on the exhaust gas test and the bubbles. I do know that in my old TD5 the gas exhaust test came up negative yet the gasket was cactus so I am weary of relying on that test as gospel.

Tracking down any failure in the cooling system is finding a needle in a hay stack. As Malsgoing130 said, so many hoses, clamps and pieces in the system to be a possible cause.

Thanks so far for the comments.

MLD
Hi MLD,
Here's my sad story. My 2.4 puma developed similar symptoms last year, initially just coolant smell in the engine bay and intermittent power loss. Later after having a stuck to close thermostat, it started to experience
1. coolant leaking through heater control valve(dripping into the sponge sealing air-con), 2. pressurised top hose,
3. coolant pushed out of the expansion tank cap,
4. no hot air in the cabin even when I turn the dial to the max, etc.

In the first everyone said this could be a blown gasket or cracked head. But mine turned out to be the worst scenario I could ever expect. An LR indie here in Melbourne pulled the engine head off last month and found a small water mark in the 4th cylinder bore. Then the head was tested, nothing wrong with it; the gasket was visually inspected, no obvious problem either. Now the indie suggests the engine block could be the culprit, my options are
1. make a bet, just put a new gasket in, it may resolve the problem.
2. get the engine block tested, which costs a few grand.
3. put a new engine in, 12 grand for a new LR engine plus labour, 10 grand for a new Ford engine plus labour.

Pretty tough call for me. If option 1 doesn't resolve the problem, I have to turn to option 2 or 3, wasting the money for installing a new gasket.
Option 2 is not recommended by the indie and another transit specialist, both said I could end up wasting the money for labour and engine block test but still requiring a new engine.
Option 3 is a big bite, I prefer to have a ford engine, but no sure what mods LR has done to make it suitable for 4wd.
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4yyynmjhf4pg4v/IMG_20151001_130726926.jpg'dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbjl4j1kqu5nthw/IMG_20151001_130735459.jpg'dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsz4oilobzyrmij/IMG_20151012_175040609.jpg'dl=0

[n plus one]

Option 1 it is then!

Edit: did you see my earlier comment re a new complete donk on Fleabay?

[Beery]

Hi MLD,
Here's my sad story. My 2.4 puma developed similar symptoms last year, initially just coolant smell in the engine bay and intermittent power loss. Later after having a stuck to close thermostat, it started to experience
1. coolant leaking through heater control valve(dripping into the sponge sealing air-con), 2. pressurised top hose,
3. coolant pushed out of the expansion tank cap,
4. no hot air in the cabin even when I turn the dial to the max, etc.

In the first everyone said this could be a blown gasket or cracked head. But mine turned out to be the worst scenario I could ever expect. An LR indie here in Melbourne pulled the engine head off last month and found a small water mark in the 4th cylinder bore. Then the head was tested, nothing wrong with it; the gasket was visually inspected, no obvious problem either. Now the indie suggests the engine block could be the culprit, my options are
1. make a bet, just put a new gasket in, it may resolve the problem.
2. get the engine block tested, which costs a few grand.
3. put a new engine in, 12 grand for a new LR engine plus labour, 10 grand for a new Ford engine plus labour.

Pretty tough call for me. If option 1 doesn't resolve the problem, I have to turn to option 2 or 3, wasting the money for installing a new gasket.
Option 2 is not recommended by the indie and another transit specialist, both said I could end up wasting the money for labour and engine block test but still requiring a new engine.
Option 3 is a big bite, I prefer to have a ford engine, but no sure what mods LR has done to make it suitable for 4wd.
:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4yyynmjhf4pg4v/IMG_20151001_130726926.jpg'dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fbjl4j1kqu5nthw/IMG_20151001_130735459.jpg'dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsz4oilobzyrmij/IMG_20151012_175040609.jpg'dl=0

That looks like electrolysis has eaten through the liner on number 4. Or it was a defective casting from new and was very thin there.

[MLD]

Labrado, thanks for ramping up my fear level. :D FWIW i empathise with your predicament.

On Saturday i'll go over every suggestion (might hold off putting a socket to the head bolts until i talk to my mechanic). I'll replace the thermostat this weekend. The cost of coolant is less than a new head.

AFAIK LR modified the oil galleries and oil delivery to suit operating at the 35 deg side angle and some other mods to be fit for purpose. Exactly what i am not sure.

For 12K plus labour the TDV6 transplant is attractive. You can buy a wrecked long engine with accessories for about 7k from a Territory, i'm sure you could negotiate the ECU and wiring loom for a bit more or use the Bell Auto ECU. The gearbox mating would be an interesting challenge. Not sure how flexible the 15% capacity increase rule is in NSW. That would rule out the Ford Ranger engine if it's strictly applied.

MLD

[DazzaTD5]

Small amounts of coolant loss does occur on the 2.4lt, 2.2lt TDCi (puma) Defenders, as already mentioned, changing the expansion cap for another new genuine one often cures this.

I've had this on very low mileage (10,000km) 2.2lt TDCi (puma) Defenders and in each case changing out the cap resolved this issue. A not so perfect batch of caps from factory is all I can think.

Not to say this is the cause, but its the cheap, simple end to try first. The temps you have mentioned wouldnt be of any concern to me. Fuel coolers on other engines is a common thing, relatively speaking.

Regards
Daz

P.S Also to note, are the bubbles in the expansion tank not just the return line, which does flow/bubble. If the bubbles were "head related" then doing a test for hydrocarbons will detect this and is the obvious test any repairer should make before jumping off the "head gasket" plank. Also a continuing filling of the expansion tank (with the cap off) until it overflows would also go in hand with the head leaking bubble. Often the difference between a blown head gasket and something simple as a stuck thermostat is the experience of the repairer doing the diagnostics.

[chook73]

Its taken me a few days to get to this but here goes.

As many people on here are aware I had to replace the head gasket on my 2009 puma when it had 95,000km on the clock.

The symptoms were mainly overheating and some coolant loss. By overheating I mean the thing would go into limp mode going over a speed bump.

We tried absolutely everything we could replace before the head came off, we replaced the thermostat, the fan, nearly all of the hoses, pressure tested the radiator and so on.

Replacing the head big job on these things and there is a lot that needs to come out to access it all so you really want to be sure thats what needs to happen.

I am going to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons here and say that I think a lot of people panic about the puma heat a little too soon especially with the scan gauges. The thermostat is fully open at 94deg so people worry that if the thing reaches 95deg it is too hot but they dont take into account their circumstances.

If you were driving a stock rig out of the showroom then yes maybe you might have some cause for concern but think for a moment about the poor cooling system trying to work its guts out to instantly cool down while you are humping 2.8t+ of truck riding on 35's with 240mm spotlights and a winch blocking the airflow possibly with a larger intercooler amongst all the other accessories we pile onto these things. With all of that working against it it is going to take a while for the cooling system to catch up.

I regularly top out on a hill now into the high 90's, and occasionally the low 100's and yes I do carefully manage the temperature but I always try to keep it under 105 deg. I back off as soon as it starts climbing rapidly which always coincides with going up a hill. The one thing I notice is that once I back off or reach the top of the hill the heat climbs for another couple of minutes, to be expected but I always allow for this.


I can easily achieve water temps (CWT) well north of 100 degrees if I deliberately boost up my 2.4 at low revs in sixth up a big hill. CHT are typically in the order of 10 degrees higher again when I do this.

Be very careful with this, 6th gear in these things is a weak POS and it is very easy to destroy a box by driving under load in 6th. If you destroy 6th you destroy the box which is a minimum $3,500 fix.

The best advise I was ever given is that 6th gear is an overdrive and should only be used on the dead flat once you have reached cursing speed (nothing under 95km/h) and as soon as you need to accelerate up a hill change down to 5th.

[n plus one]

The one thing I notice is that once I back off or reach the top of the hill the heat climbs for another couple of minutes, to be expected but I always allow for this.

Yep, same experience with temp here.

When we are considering our operating temps, it's also worth noting that the coolant temps on a 2.4 appear to be a complex arrangement based on the cylinder head temp (CHT) sensor and not a simple actual coolant temp. The CHT sensor is a two wire affair and there does not appear to be a separate coolant temp sensor in the system - unlike the 2.2 Puma. Pull your CHT plug and your CHT reading goes awol shortly followed by the CWT which appears to default to the intake air temp (weird eh?). Plug the CHT back in and the CHT value immediately resets whike the CWT climbs back up. This is all based on scanguage readings.

Point being, the coolant temp values we are all talking about may well be a bit disengenuous?

Need to get of my arse and install my Madman coolant temp sensor to get some real data around coolant temps!

[MLD]

I've spoken to several LR independents and considered your comments. In all probability the head is cracked and only exhibits symptoms of coolant loss at full operating temp under load. They can't test the head by replicating the operating temp conditions so that exercise might result in a false negative.

I have a trip to the VHC in early Nov and if the coolant loss symptoms persist on this trip down I'll be left with the unavoidable (yet unsubstantiated) conclusion of a cracked head. If so, off with the old and on with a new head. Just need to find a lazy $6k. :(

Sad thing is, i have no way of testing if the conclusion is correct and the new head was money well spent.

The joys of LR ownership. MLD

[DazzaTD5]

That maybe the case, but once the head has bee removed it can be tested for hardness (especially between coolant passages and the cylinder chamber) and can be checked for cracks. As with any alloy head I always check them myself for hardness (compare outer edge hardness as its likely to be ok, to that of close to the cylinder chamber) if it tests ok, I then send them into Head Exchange for checking.

Just as a note, a cylinder head that has soft spots will exhibit these symptoms, all fine when cold but pushes coolant when full operating temp is obtained.

So basically once the head has been removed, it should remove any doubt as to the cause of coolant loss.

Regards
Daz

P.S just as some added info, if you talk with a engine re-conditioner you will find the Ford engine isnt prone to cracking.