Russian airliner crashes in central Sinai

[reachjatt]

Russian airliner crashes in central Sinai - Egyptian PM - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34687139) :(

Russian authorities say it was carrying 217 passengers, 17 of them children, and seven crew. Most were Russian tourists.

It seems airline crashes are getting too frequent.

[LandyAndy]

There was a lucky escape yesterday,one had fuel pouring out of an engine,the plane taxiying behind it to take off reported it.The engine/wing went up in smoke whilst everyone got off safely.Could have been a different story if it tried to take off.
Andrew

[JDNSW]

....... (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34687139)

It seems airline crashes are getting too frequent.

This is partly due to the large number of flights every day, plus better communications. (And bigger planes means more casualties per incident, making sure that they make the headlines!)

Of course, every crash will have reasons specific to that particular crash, but there is no reason to think that air travel is getting more dangerous - quite the reverse, in fact. Although the proliferation of airlines probably means that some are a bit short of the skills needed to keep an airline safe.

John

[bob10]

The local I.S. group claims responsibility, but this has been deemed not likely,


Russian passenger plane crashes in Egypt | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/10/31/egypt-plane-crash-sinai/)

[JDNSW]

The local I.S. group claims responsibility, but this has been deemed not likely,
.....

Unless it was downed by a shoulder launched missile just after takeoff, which seems there is no suggestion of, very unlikely. As was demonstrated in Ukraine, downing an airliner at cruising altitude calls for a launcher that is so large and obvious that it seems there is no possibility of the Egyptian ISIS group either getting one or keeping it for any length of time - and if ISIS had one, why would they have it in Sinai not Syria?

John

[bob10]

Unless it was downed by a shoulder launched missile just after takeoff, which seems there is no suggestion of, very unlikely. As was demonstrated in Ukraine, downing an airliner at cruising altitude calls for a launcher that is so large and obvious that it seems there is no possibility of the Egyptian ISIS group either getting one or keeping it for any length of time - and if ISIS had one, why would they have it in Sinai not Syria?

John


I agree, however, a bomb on the aircraft?

[JDNSW]

I agree, however, a bomb on the aircraft?

Quite possibly - but there are other suspects there perhaps rather more likely than ISIS. I have no idea how good the airport security is in Sinai, but I would be rather surprised if it were not fairly good - after all, Islamist groups in Egypt (not ISIS) have already targetted the tourist industry.

John

[bob10]

Quite possibly - but there are other suspects there perhaps rather more likely than ISIS. I have no idea how good the airport security is in Sinai, but I would be rather surprised if it were not fairly good - after all, Islamist groups in Egypt (not ISIS) have already targetted the tourist industry.

John


Yes, it does seem unlikely, and the Russian airline industry hasn't had the greatest safety record over the years. It has been said the Islamic State affiliate with ISIS in northern Sinai claimed responsibility, without stating how. It doesn't make sense to me for ISIS to claim they did it, with Russia on the ground [ and air] in Syria. You would think they wouldn't want to poke the Bear, and have it concentrate all its efforts on ISIS .Be interesting to see what's found at the crash site.

[bblaze]

maybe some one wants the bear poked and they are not affiliated with isis
cheers
blaze

[JDNSW]

A little reading on crash this morning suggests that the copilot was unhappy with the condition of the aircraft.

It might also be worth noting that the aircraft was repaired in Cairo (2001-2) after a tail strike while landing there. I don't know what the Cairo repair capability is like, but I seem to remember at least one accident resulting from faults with an old repair, resulting in structural failure. Last contact is supposed to be a request for an immediate landing at the nearest airport, and last radar contact reported a descent rate of 5,000fpm, which could be either the result of loss of control or possibly intended to deal with loss of pressure.

The combination of these suggests to me the possibility of structural failure, although they do not preclude other scenarios, even if these reports are correct.

John

[ramblingboy42]

Reachjatt.....it is actually the opposite of what you are saying......per capita , aeroplanes are actually crashing less frequently than ever before.

The level of reporting ie. twiiter/facebook from ordinary people is increasing.

Flying is proving to be undoubtedly the safest of all forms of transport.

[digger]

I do realise this will sound wrong, but
after MH17 Im sure lots of families believe Russia should have been refused access
to the aircraft until most bits are already collected up...

And then only severely limited access ... good for the goose?

[Eevo]

i have not had time to read about this crash but i quickly saw that the tail was 5km from the cockpit.

this indicated a breakup in flight.

in flight breakup could be due to bomb, missile, structural failure.

what it generally rules out is ran out of fuel, engine failure, pilot error.

[JDNSW]

.......
in flight breakup could be due to bomb, missile, structural failure.

what it generally rules out is ran out of fuel, engine failure, pilot error.

Unless the structural failure is due to a manoeuvre that exceeded the structural strength of the airframe - and you left out software problems. Remember this plane is a fly-by-wire one.

But at this stage I'm guessing either a bomb or a structural problem relating to repairs caused the breakup. And if it is a bomb, then ISIS is only one possibility, and not even the most likely one.

John

[digger]

Or a theory put up on radio this morning (not my theory but first time Ive heard it) was that Russia was using the plane as a way to transport 'other items" one of which has gone bang! (conspiracy theory much?? :) )

No matter what the result, we will only hear Moscows version of it. Lost a lot of respect for their methods and handling of things after MH17 and Chechnya.

[Eevo]

Unless the structural failure is due to a manoeuvre that exceeded the structural strength of the airframe - and you left out software problems. Remember this plane is a fly-by-wire one.


pretty rare for that to happen.
actually i cant think of single instance in a RPT plane.

[Eevo]

Or a theory put up on radio this morning (not my theory but first time Ive heard it) was that Russia was using the plane as a way to transport 'other items" one of which has gone bang! (conspiracy theory much?? :) )
.

its happened before.

[bob10]

An American satellite detected a " heat flash" from the airliner, when it broke up. The jury is out on what caused it. BIG BROTHER really is everywhere.


ISIS Bomb May Have Downed Russian Jet, U.S. Official Says - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/russian-plane-crashes-in-the-sinai/bomb-may-have-downed-russian-jet-u-s-official-says-n457446?cid=eml_nbn_20151104)

[bob10]

Satellite Shows Heat Flash When Russian Metrojet Plane Crashed, But No Missile: U.S. Officials - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/russian-plane-crashes-in-the-sinai/satellite-shows-heat-flash-when-russian-metrojet-plane-crashed-no-n456161)

[DiscoMick]

Was it a bomb or did the tail break off because of stress fractures resulting from a previous tail-dragging incident? Who knows - only time will tell.

[JDNSW]

Yes, the investigation should be able to determine the cause. And very likely, if it was a bomb, where it was, and what it was in.

John

[Plane Fixer]

It would not be hard for a small bomb placed in a vulnerable spot by a member of the tarmac crew.
In the middle eastern countries corruption is endemic, as are the family connections.
It is now a good time for Australia to beef up it's real airport security, not this pathetic swabbing and taking knitting needles (plastic) off ladies.
It would also be smart to match boarding pass with positive ID at the gate which is standard everywhere else in the world but Oz.
Most places overseas I have worked everybody going airside goes through the scanner and physical pat down. ID is checked at least 3 times by different security people. All bags are xrayed and opened.
My toolbox was inventoried both in and out. All catering is supervised loading both in the kitchens and onto the aircraft.
I once forgot to get a maintenance log from a pilot so I walked back into the terminal to get it. I had to go through the full security and ID/Airside pass check to go back airside.
We have taken turns to do the lunch run and that even gets xrayed and opened.
It is high time we got real serious about our security in our own country or else we will find we have such a tragedy brought on by some religious nut case here. The recent shooting of the innocent police accountant will only be the tip of the iceberg and by the amount of air travel I do it will be my dumb luck to be on that aircraft.

[Ferret]

...It is now a good time for Australia to beef up it's real airport security, not this pathetic swabbing and taking knitting needles (plastic) off ladies. It would also be smart to match boarding pass with positive ID at the gate which is standard everywhere else in the world but Oz.

Boarded a cruise liner in Singapore a few years ago. The passport and boarding papers were checked at 5 separate security checks during the boarding process. Never seen anything like this level of security for an airline.

[Plane Fixer]

We had that level of security at Hassi Mesoud in Algeria and more!

[Pickles2]

It would not be hard for a small bomb placed in a vulnerable spot by a member of the tarmac crew.
In the middle eastern countries corruption is endemic, as are the family connections.
It is now a good time for Australia to beef up it's real airport security, not this pathetic swabbing and taking knitting needles (plastic) off ladies.
It would also be smart to match boarding pass with positive ID at the gate which is standard everywhere else in the world but Oz.
Most places overseas I have worked everybody going airside goes through the scanner and physical pat down. ID is checked at least 3 times by different security people. All bags are xrayed and opened.
My toolbox was inventoried both in and out. All catering is supervised loading both in the kitchens and onto the aircraft.
I once forgot to get a maintenance log from a pilot so I walked back into the terminal to get it. I had to go through the full security and ID/Airside pass check to go back airside.
We have taken turns to do the lunch run and that even gets xrayed and opened.
It is high time we got real serious about our security in our own country or else we will find we have such a tragedy brought on by some religious nut case here. The recent shooting of the innocent police accountant will only be the tip of the iceberg and by the amount of air travel I do it will be my dumb luck to be on that aircraft.
SPOT ON MATE, SPOT ON.
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

Boarded a cruise liner in Singapore a few years ago. The passport and boarding papers were checked at 5 separate security checks during the boarding process. Never seen anything like this level of security for an airline.
I have, & so has Wifey, BUT,.......not in Aus.
Pickles.

[bob10]

It would not be hard for a small bomb placed in a vulnerable spot by a member of the tarmac crew.
In the middle eastern countries corruption is endemic, as are the family connections.
It is now a good time for Australia to beef up it's real airport security, not this pathetic swabbing and taking knitting needles (plastic) off ladies.
It would also be smart to match boarding pass with positive ID at the gate which is standard everywhere else in the world but Oz.
Most places overseas I have worked everybody going airside goes through the scanner and physical pat down. ID is checked at least 3 times by different security people. All bags are xrayed and opened.
My toolbox was inventoried both in and out. All catering is supervised loading both in the kitchens and onto the aircraft.
I once forgot to get a maintenance log from a pilot so I walked back into the terminal to get it. I had to go through the full security and ID/Airside pass check to go back airside.
We have taken turns to do the lunch run and that even gets xrayed and opened.
It is high time we got real serious about our security in our own country or else we will find we have such a tragedy brought on by some religious nut case here. The recent shooting of the innocent police accountant will only be the tip of the iceberg and by the amount of air travel I do it will be my dumb luck to be on that aircraft.


We recently flew from Mt. Isa to Brisbane. Security at the airport at the Isa was casual. As it is, I suggest, at most regional centres. Should we be concerned? perhaps.


Spies fuel Airbus bomb ‘chatter’ | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/11/07/russian-airbus-disaster-spies-intercept-bomb-chatter/)


Putin is drawing up plans to evacuate Russians from the country. There must be some concern about terrorist activity.


bomb may have downed Metrojet plane (http://morningmail.org/russias-a321m-all-flights-suspended/)

[Plane Fixer]

We recently flew from Mt. Isa to Brisbane. Security at the airport at the Isa was casual. As it is, I suggest, at most regional centres. Should we be concerned? perhaps.


Putin is drawing up plans to evacuate Russians from the country. There must be some concern about terrorist activity.


Unfortunately in Australia there is a head in the sand regards proper security as it is expensive if done properly, and this means upping the passenger service levy. This will kill the low cost market where the pax demand the lowest fare.
Do not even harbour the thought that terrorists are silly; in fact I do believe that they have done their own assessment of all regional airports and will pick an opportune moment in line with their ideology to strike.
If the Metrojet was downed by terrorists Russia's response will be brutal with no holds barred which will further inflame the situation.
We do live in interesting times.

[bob10]

If the Metrojet was downed by terrorists Russia's response will be brutal with no holds barred which will further inflame the situation.
We do live in interesting times.


Send in the pit bulls, I reckon. About time the cruel bastards got some of their own back. And it will force Putin to put up, or shut up.

[bob10]

MetroJet Flight 9286 crash: What we know about disaster and who benefits from it | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/opinion/what-we-know-about-the-metrojet-flight-9286-crash-and-who-benefits-from-it-20151105-gks5yu?eid=cpc:nnn-14omn2224-optim-nnn:outbrain-outbrain_paid-dom-displayad-nnn-afr-nnn&campaign_code=15caf010&promote_channel=sem&utm_source=outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=paid%20outbrain)

[bob10]

A confirmed terrorist act. Retribution imminent, says Russia.

Metrojet Crash: Traces of Explosives Found in Wreckage, Kremlin Says - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/metrojet-crash-traces-explosives-found-wreckage-kremlin-says-n464676?cid=eml_nbn_20151117)

[bob10]

More breaking news, two airport workers arrested over the bombing of the Russian aircraft.

[bob10]

ISIS posts photo of the bomb that bought down the Russian plane [ supposedly]

Metrojet Crash: ISIS Publishes Photo of Purported Russian Jet Bomb - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/russian-plane-crashes-in-the-sinai/metrojet-crash-isis-claims-photo-jet-bomb-dabiq-magazine-n465551?cid=eml_nbn_20151118)