The thoughts of a young woman, worried about her future

[bob10]

This was written by a 21 yr old female who gets it. It's her future
she's worried about and this is how she feels about the social welfare
system that she's being forced to live in! These solutions are just common
sense in her opinion.



Put me in charge . . ..

Put me in charge of Centrelink payments. I'd get rid of cash payments
and provide vouchers for 50kg bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese,
basic sanitary items and all the powdered milk you can use.
If you want steak, burgers, takeaway and junk food, then get a
job.


Put me in charge of Medicare. The first thing I'd do is to get women
to have birth control implants.
Then, we'll test recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine. If you
want to reproduce, use drugs, drink alcohol or smoke, then get a job.


Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in military
barracks?
You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair.
Your "home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions
will be inventoried.
If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your own
place.


Put me in charge of compulsory job search. You will either search for
employment each week no matter what the job or you will report for community
work.
This may be clearing the roadways and open spaces of rubbish, painting
and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you.
We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your dooff
dooff stereo and speakers and put that money toward the "common good.."


Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realise that
all of the above is voluntary.
If you want our hard earned cash and housing assistance, accept our
rules..
Before you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin someones "self
esteem," consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's
money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.


If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at
least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system
rewards those for continuing to make bad choices.


AND While you are on Centrelink income you no longer have the right
to VOTE!
For you to vote would be a conflict of interest..... If you want to
vote, then get a job.

[V8Ian]

That's a bit harsh Bob, TIC I hope. :D

[bob10]

That's a bit harsh Bob, TIC I hope. :D


Didn't hurt the generation of the Great Depression, commonly regarded as Australia's greatest generation.

[bob10]

Have to fess up, mostly TIC , Ian

[steane]

Seems reasonable to me. Do I need to soften the **** up or something?

[Eevo]

sounds good to me

[Hall]

Lot of that actually makes sense, in a harsh sort of way.
Cheers Hall

[loneranger]

sounds good to me

What he said.

[NavyDiver]

Sounds good
I like the Ceduna Income management trial https://www.dss.gov.au/our-responsibilities/families-and-children/programs-services/income-management-in-the-ceduna-region

I cannot understand why anyone on unemployment benefits expects tax payers to fund beer, cigarettes or gambling and would like this rolled out everywhere yesterday. I have no objection to paying tax ( unlike Chevron :censored:)
I do object to taxes being in social security used for supporting anything more than living, food or education expenses.

[Eevo]

having said that, if there are no jobs available...

[trog]

I think the manifesto must have missed a few points. Where is the dictates of what religious belief must be observed and practiced , what hair cut and clothing , or if they will be allowed to listen to anarchy inspiring alternative radio/music. Sounds a bit like Pol Pot to me

[NavyDiver]

having said that, if there are no jobs available...
Move worked for many of us. Seasonal work is easy if you want it. We import people as younger (some not all) people think picking apples or grapes is below them. There is alway work shortages. NB I am not saying thats works for families but then again staying anywhere which has no work prospects even if family might be starting your kids off in the bad way for their future work prospects.

[Tombie]

I think the manifesto must have missed a few points. Where is the dictates of what religious belief must be observed and practiced , what hair cut and clothing , or if they will be allowed to listen to anarchy inspiring alternative radio/music. Sounds a bit like Pol Pot to me

The manifesto is spot on...You want the benefits package you play by the rules...

****ing soft cock policy leads to a welfare issue...

As for religion... The ONLY thing that needs to be done with religion is remove its TAX status.... and then watch it implode...

[cafe latte]

having said that, if there are no jobs available...

A job is always available if you are prepared to do anything or go off and find a job, in Aus anyway. Ravenshoe has a LOT of unemployed many are in my rental houses. So many unemployed and the local fire brigade is desperate for part time paid members, but it is too much like hard work it seems. So many unemployed and yet I regularly get offered jobs, but I have my own business so I dont need them, but the jobs are there so why so much dependence on Centerlink??
If you get money for free and get used to it why would you go to work?
The system is wrong in my opinion.
Chris

[Eevo]

ah yes but most of the people on CL cant do the job that you do or the jobs your getting offered.

[cafe latte]

ah yes but most of the people on CL cant do the job that you do or the jobs your getting offered.

Not really, I was recently asked if I was interested in serving behind the counter at a local parts shop. If you can stand up and walk to get the stuff off the shelf and walk back and put the price into the till you are qualified enough.
Chris

[DiscoMick]

I read that there are 90,000 unfilled job vacancies in rural areas. Even allowing for the jobs that pay peanuts ($10 an hour) or require skills most people don't actually have, that's still a lot of jobs.
I know plenty of former refugees doing the jobs other people don't want in my area and getting on with their lives, sending their kids to school, getting an education themselves, finding jobs, buying houses and cars.
It can be done.

[Tombie]

Not really, I was recently asked if I was interested in serving behind the counter at a local parts shop. If you can stand up and walk to get the stuff off the shelf and walk back and put the price into the till you are qualified enough.

Chris


But that is "below" what many value themselves at...


Me, I'd shovel manure to sustain my family.

[carlschmid2002]

But that is "below" what many value themselves at...


Me, I'd shovel manure to sustain my family.

Me too, wait, I have.

[cafe latte]

But that is "below" what many value themselves at...


Me, I'd shovel manure to sustain my family.

I dont think it is even that in most cases many are simply too addicted to free money and having to do sod all.
Problem is if you do the maths with your average low paid job take the rent out and see what is left, then compare to young lazy family with a couple of kids on Centerlink. Both get benefits and some extra benefits for the kids, plus the rent is paid why would they work? It is just too good on benefits this is the problem.
Chris

[Eevo]

If you can stand up and walk to get the stuff off the shelf and walk back and put the price into the till you are qualified enough.


plenty of people who cant do that.

[cafe latte]

plenty of people who cant do that.

Ok wheel off in a wheel chair, shuffle whatever, the point is able bodied people who are very able are not taking these jobs out of choice mostly just they are too lazy as it is just too easy to get free money.
Chris

[bob10]

I was hoping to stimulate some discussion on the subject, but was apprehensive I might start a tit for tat cat fight. It is to your credit replies have been fair, and considered. Thanks, long may we debate thus.

[cafe latte]

I was hoping to stimulate some discussion on the subject, but was apprehensive I might start a tit for tat cat fight. It is to your credit replies have been fair, and considered. Thanks, long may we debate thus.

I dont know what the solution is though, this is not just a Australian problem. Many moons ago back in the UK I was unemployed. With benefits I got my rent paid all up it came to 700 pounds a month. Working five days a week in a shop would give me the same at the time this is wrong. I wanted more in my life and I am where I am now very happy and secure, but too many look at the alternative which is work for the same money they are getting for doing nothing and continue to do nothing..In a way who can blame them wrong as it is.
Chris

[mikehzz]

People pay money to shovel manure on here... but I digress. :D You have to face the fact that anyone who chooses welfare as a career choice is a complete moron. You can call them lazy if you like, I prefer defective. As a society we have to fend for them because they are either complete dills or massively unfortunate and the issues in doing that are not as simplistic as stated in the original post. Welfare is going to be abused no matter how you shape it. Compulsory birth control for the lazy girls or welfare recipients, if you want to breed get a job....really? That's a slippery slope that's already been tried before in various countries. She lost me on that one.
Unfortunately, welfare is for losers. They may only be temporary losers due to poor circumstances, but some are permanent losers and the girl's solutions aren't going to help them at all. The girl's solutions only help the girl herself and those like her, and they don't need the help.

[Orkney 90]

The only reason that so many choose the welfare option is because they can. Again, thank you civil libertarians, greenies and softies.

[cafe latte]

Problem is welfare for most recipients is a career. I have six rentals and five of them are permanent welfare recipients. My friend has over 30 houses and most of his are welfare He said he is noticing the second generation recently ie he has rented to parents for years and now he is renting to the kids all on welfare. Then you have sooo many who are claiming a disability pension, blokes 35, 45 and 50 on a pension when I cant see anything at all wrong with them what sort of system allows this to happen!!?
I have a genuine back issue, I paid for my own tests and I have two discs that are less than half the thickness they should be and degeneration of the surface of the vertebrae next to those discs. I run my farm do all my own repairs on my houses and I am also a fire fighter which I can do as I grit my teeth and get on with the job. I know of two people both are on pensions, both are young and fit and both I have seen doing heavy work like carrying huge logs at one of the local clubs. How by any measure can they be allowed to claim for a disability pension? The people are lazy, but the system is wrong.
Chris

[Chops]

Maybe get them into the Army,,, then they might learn some discipline and respect.

[isuzurover]

This was actually written by a middle aged white male from Waco, Texas. So no 21 year old females were involved and the original author would not know what centrelink is.

Funnily enough I was talking to someone who works for a local MP and he said all the people that come in to complain are middle aged men. Just like here I guess. :wasntme:

Gatesville man surprised letter to the editor is an Internet phenomenon - WacoTrib.com: Local (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/gatesville-man-surprised-letter-to-the-editor-is-an-internet/article_9d71fc0d-fc4a-58ac-a6e2-3bab28612253.html)


Gatesville man surprised letter to the editor is an Internet phenomenon

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Posted: Sunday, February 26, 2012 12:00 am

By CINDY V. CULP cculp@wacotrib.com

Feb. 26, 2012

A Central Texas man whose pointed prose about government assistance programs made him an Internet folk hero says he is surprised but delighted his words continue to reverberate in cyberspace.

Alfred W. Evans of Gatesville said he expected his ?put me in charge? letter to the editor printed in the Tribune-Herald on Nov. 18, 2010, to resonate with others fed up with welfare abuse. But he never expected it to be emailed across the country, much less become such a phenomenon people would add in their own passages, make up a new identity for the author and even satirize it.

Perhaps the most unexpected development, Evans said, was when be began receiving money in the mail from people wanting him to run for office.

?I don't want attention,? said Evans, who declined to be photographed for this article. ?I just want people to stop and think.?

It's not the first time the 56-year-old had a letter to the editor appear in the Tribune-Herald.

But this one stood out for its form and engaging language. Evans started sections with the phrase, ?Put me in charge,? then went on to list conditions he thinks people receiving government help should have to follow.

?Put me in charge of food stamps,? Evans began. ?I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.?

The letter went on to say people shouldn't be allowed to get pregnant, smoke, drink alcohol or get body piercings or tattoos while on assistance. Government housing should be akin to military barracks, complete with inspections and an inventory of possessions. And welfare recipients should be required to work somewhere, even if it's at a government-created job, he wrote.

Evans, who spent 20 years in the U.S. Army and now works as a computer specialist for the Texas Department of Transportation, said he decided to write the letter after an experience he had at a grocery store in Gatesville.

A woman accompanied by numerous children ?about emptied out the meat counter? and then proceeded to pay for those purchases and some other food items with a Lone Star card, which acts like a debit card for food stamps.

But the woman also had a second cart full of other items, including junk food that the Lone Star card can't be used for, Evans said. She paid for them by pulling out a few bills from a large wad of cash, he said.

After Evans bought his items and walked into the parking lot, he became even more angry, he said. The vehicle the woman was loading her groceries into was a nice Chevrolet Suburban with specialty wheel rims, he said.

?I got into my 10-year-old (Ford) F150 truck and thought, ?I just paid for everything she just put in her truck,? ? Evans said.

Internet sensation

Soon after the Tribune-Herald published the letter, the newspaper began getting inquiries about it from people in other states. Most wanted to know whether the letter was real.

The requests continue more than a year later. Evans? letter also continues to make the rounds via email and social networking sites such as Facebook.

Evans said he doesn't know how the letter spread. The first time he realized it had reached beyond Central Texas was a few weeks after its publication, when a cousin who works at Fort Hood was approached by a co-worker who had the letter emailed to him by family in Michigan.

That prompted Evans to do an Internet search for his letter. When he saw it had been posted on message boards by people from all across the country, and even as far away as Australia, he was flabbergasted.

Before long, letters from strangers began showing up in Evans? mailbox.

Some only had his name and Gatesville, since that was the only information that appeared with his letter. Luckily, he said, Gatesville is a small enough town the postal carrier knew where to deliver them.

In all, Evans said he got at least two dozen letters. Some sent money, including an older lady from Minnesota who enclosed a $1 bill.

?She said she wanted to be the first to contribute to my political campaign,? he said.

Internet discussions of the letter are replete with pleas for the author to run for president or other elected office.

But in some cases, the online posters are under the impression they would be voting for a 21-year-old woman. For whatever reason, some versions of the letter claim that is who wrote it.

?This was written by a 21 yr. old female who gets it,? begins an introduction often added to the letter. ?It's her future she's worried about and this is how she feels about the social welfare big government state that she's being forced to live in! These solutions are just common sense in her opinion.?

Another common change to the letter is the addition of a paragraph at the end. It reads:

?And while you are on gov't subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a gov't welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job.?

Many online postings of the letter don't list an author. But in a few cases, revamped versions have been published under other people's names in other newspapers.

Evans said it doesn't bother him when the letter appears without his name. He doesn't even really care about people attributing it to a 21-year-old woman.

But Evans is irked by versions that include the voting paragraph. He takes a strict constructionist view of the U.S. Constitution, to the point where he thinks many functions of the federal government are unconstitutional because they are not spelled out in the document. But people have the right to vote even if they're on government assistance, he said.

?We shouldn't do more than it says,? Evans said of the Constitution. ?But for sure we shouldn't do less than it says.?

Several marketing and online media experts theorize the reason someone changed the alleged identity of the author was to give the letter more punch.

People might be less dismissive if they thought the ideas came from a young woman, rather than an older man ? the stereotype of a conservative, they said.

?It maybe doesn't seem so biased,? said Jonah Berger, an assistant marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania whose research focuses on why certain ideas and online content ?go viral.?

Lee Raine, director of the Pew Research Center's Internet & American Life Project in Washington, D.C., agreed, saying details of popular content often are changed through time.

Sometimes people are having fun with the material or wanting to add their own twist. But often, changes are aimed at making content more believable, he said.

?Details add credibility, or at least the patina of credibility,? Raine said.

Kim Knight, assistant professor of emerging media and communication at the University of Texas at Dallas, said changes to the letter should be viewed through the lens of digital culture.

Online, people often are praised when they take the work of others, make changes and then release it as a new creation. Musical remixes that use others? songs are an example, she said.

That same flexibility hasn't been extended to the written word ? at least not yet, Knight said. Most people still view the taking of others? words as plagiarism. Those claiming Evans? words as their own may have just assumed no one would notice, she said.

But perhaps some were applying 'the ethos of remix culture,? she said.

?I suspect that details are changed to make it more relevant or to customize the viewpoint,? Knight said. ?Our ideas about influence and originality are called into question when we encounter trends such as these.?

Striking a chord

The experts also agree the main reason Evans? letter is so popular is because it evokes strong emotion.

?People don't pass along something they don't care about,? Raine said. ?People pass along things that strike a chord. There's a huge dimension of social networking to it.?

Evans? descriptive language also likely plays into the letter's popularity, said Mia Moody-Ramirez, an assistant professor of journalism, public relations and new media at Baylor University.

?Many people agree . . . and wish maybe they'd said it that way,? Moody-Ramirez said. ?The way he words it is almost poetic. Ding Dongs, Ho Ho's ? you can envision that in your head.?

Perhaps the best indication of the letter's popularity is that it has spawned satire. One version starts, ?Put me in charge of character. I'd get rid of . . . those who have a complete lack of empathy and anybody who discriminates against people with a (expletive) tattoo because they are so sure their choices are the only choices possible.?

Another mockingly asserts that ?humiliating and punishing poor American children because their parents can't or won't find work that pays a living wage will encourage them to choose better parents in the future.?

Evans said some of that criticism is misplaced.

For example, he doesn't have a problem with people having tattoos. His wife has several. What he has a problem with, he said, is people who take government money and then use their own cash to get tattoos.

Evans also made it clear he does not oppose all government assistance. Short-term help to people truly in a bind is appropriate, such as when a person loses a job or a family suddenly experiences the death of a wage earner, he said.

Evans? beef is with people who abuse the system. That includes those who use government money to buy necessities, then spend other cash on frivolous things. It also includes those who receive assistance for a long period of time, he said.

?I don't have much sympathy for a person who is 45 years old with three kids and is working an entry-level job,? Evans said. ?That just means they've never really applied themselves. We have made it too comfortable to be poor. We think we're helping them but we're not.?

Evans, who was interviewed wearing a T-shirt showing pictures of nearly two dozen different handguns above the phrase ?Celebrate Diversity,? doesn't regret writing the letter and he doesn't care what people think about him because of it.

His only confession, he quipped, is that he doesn't actually want to be put in charge of anything more than getting himself to work on time. He just wishes government officials would fix what he views as a broken system.

As for the idea he might one day become one of the people in charge of the government, Evans said he has no interest in running for office. He's trusting that those who mailed him donations will understand.

?I tell the truth,? Evans said. ?I tell what I think. I'd last about a day.?

[cafe latte]

It does not alter the fact that I have just come back from fixing a window in one of the rentals and the tenants in the back duplex were already half drunk at 2.30pm. The rent comes out directly from centerlink and so far (touch wood) no issues. Nobody is complaining about noise and they are not treating the property too bad (not good either but this is expected). All the same they are peeing there lives up the wall and benefits are paying for it. How do you change people and get them into the work force when they just want to sit around and get drunk, and there mum and dads did the same so did there grand parents?
Chris

[Orkney 90]

How do you change people and get them into the work force when they just want to sit around and get drunk, and there mum and dads did the same so did there grand parents?
Chris

Simple. Firstly elect a government that has big brass balls. Then change the soft, idiotic laws. Ignore the weirdos, greenies, civil libertarians, and those un-washed rent-a-crowd group. Then bring back National Service. Mandatory. And work for the dole scheme. Stop aid to countries that don't give a crap about us anyway. If that means pulling out of UN charters, so be it. Then re-direct those funds to fix up our own country, and by doing so create more jobs.

I guess no system is perfect, but when a country has a strong government and leader, things do start falling into place. Think what you will, but why do you think Vladimir Putin has such a strong popularity base in Russia?

[manic]

Think what you will, but why do you think Vladimir Putin has such a strong popularity base in Russia?
Because nutters like nutters. :)

[3toes]

Joh for PM

[DiscoMick]

I thought this story didn't sound right, so glad its been exposed as an urban myth.
Welfare fraud is actually low in Australia, according to the official stats. Everybody knows people on welfare, but that doesn't prove anything.
Unemployment is also low. Historically, five per cent is pretty much full employment - it rarely falls below that for long. When it does, wages and inflation rise.
The reason there are so many unfilled jobs is more likely to be we don't have enough people able to fill the jobs because our population isn't growing fast enough to keep up because we're not having enough children and immigration is too low. That's the problem right now. The economy has slowed to about 2% growth, well below the target f 3%. Inflation is too low and our population needs to grow faster to create more demand in the economy

And yes, I've shovelled manure too - what does that prove?
Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[cafe latte]

I thought this story didn't sound right, so glad its been exposed as an urban myth.
Welfare fraud is actually low in Australia, according to the official stats. Everybody knows people on welfare, but that doesn't prove anything.
Unemployment is also low. Historically, five per cent is pretty much full employment - it rarely falls below that for long. When it does, wages and inflation rise.
The reason there are so many unfilled jobs is more likely to be we don't have enough people able to fill the jobs because our population isn't growing fast enough to keep up because we're not having enough children and immigration is too low. That's the problem right now. The economy has slowed to about 2% growth, well below the target f 3%. Inflation is too low and our population needs to grow faster to create more demand in the economy

And yes, I've shovelled manure too - what does that prove?
Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

The post may have been an urban myth, but much of what was said after is true. Some are unemployed by no fault of there own, but far too many REALLY DO use benefits as a career, I know a lot of people who do. I also know a bloke who is strong enough to carry half a tree round on his shoulder, he is super strong and fit, yet he somehow get a disability pension, this is just wrong! I have a friend in the UK who when I last saw him had diabetic weeping ulcers all up his legs. His feet were so bad he risked to loose them and there was an infection in the bones of his feet and the only solution was attempting to get the bones to fuse. He could dress himself just, but was too weak to do his own shopping. He could walk but only shuffle a few yards. He is seriously sick, so bad he spent 6 months of the year in hospital, BUT HE WAS NOT BAD ENOUGH FOR A DISABILITY PENSION!! This is wrong IMO how sick do you need to be to need help in the UK now? But this example does make our disability pension system here in Aus far too easy to get. If I was a lazy bum which I am not my back issue would be enough to get myself on a pension which is just wrong as I am very fit and healthy, the system needs to change.
Chris

[AndyG]

And here i was thinking the OP was having a go at pensioners, :D

I dunno, i live out of the Country, to get a job , to support my family & Defender, at 5S 151E . See them 3 or 4 times a year for 40 days. My choice, pays the bills

But i understand if a job is available in Dubbo & you live in say Newcastle, you can say no, and keep the money , :mad:

Yes, we need a safety net, but it shouldn't be feather lined.
IMHO no welfare package, regardless of kids etc should be more than 75% than what you can get in the minimum wage without penalty rates.

Some happy snaps,

[Blknight.aus]

:whistling:
Just gunna leave this here. (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/816635-post27.html)

[bob10]

And here i was thinking the OP was having a go at pensioners,

Some happy snaps,

Not likely, since I have a part war pension. Only a part pension because of my time in the military accruing super. And spending a lot more time away from home than you. G'day, Dave.

[boa]

We need to lower the number, it is way to high, most live on payments. Yet some are happy to house these people. And make a living out of them via the government payment. Not all are immigrants. Why do we need all this population growth it is destroying this country and the planet. People will destroy what we have. The number of people on this planet is the problem. If people object to what is going on, then don't take advantage of the situation buy making money from the current situation. If you need to make money so be it. But not at a price of more immigrants or people on the dole. If people don't deserve the dole report it.

[roverrescue]

We "need" population growth because the current economic model is based upon exponential growth which requires a growing market. Since the economic model is far far more powerful than all government combined ... Just like many human civilizations before ours we will continue this path until we fail. You are correct that the planet cannot support exponential population growth and exponential economic growth... But the economic model is not going to fail till it does and civilization goes with it.

Unabated population growth is the elephant in the room of every discussion on climate change or ageing population or wealth inequality or economic development of the third world.... But as we are all beholden to the exponential economic model it will never be changed.

Peace

Steve

[cuppabillytea]

If you make the assumption that every one on benefits is a bludging oxygen Thief then yes its fair enough. If not, then it's Neo Naziism.
Cheers, Billy.

[landy]

I, like most tax paying Australians am horrified at the the welfare cost in this country. But I think that many of the comments above have failed to mention some important points.
I have a close friend who works for Centre Link and I often have this argument with him. As he says, yes you can live on the dole. But its not comfortable and way would any 'normal person want too'. He tells me stories of the few people that come in that genuinely need help. But the stories of the great unwashed are more common. He says that a lot of people genuinely want some work but just to look at them you know that no one would want to employ them. the dole is set to keep the recipients in a life style that will discourage them from finding money illegally. If the dole is cut, crime will rise. the cost of the dole keeps you safe to a degree.
As for the 'send them to the Army' brigade. Why would the Army want unmotivated people? They don't have the resources to keep good, hard men looking after the dregs that would be sent from recruiting. And ultimately much more expensive to keep a check on the dole recipients though institutional methods than to just put them on the dole.
Although the dole is not cheap, it costs the tax payer less than other alternatives.
I hate that someone can sit at home on our taxes. I hate that a single mother gets more if she gets pregnant, while still on benefits. I hate that a bloke cant work and support his family because he has anxiety. If my Grandad had anxiety and didnt work, he didnt eat! and that was normal. I could go on forever. But what is the alternative?
Someone please give me a solution that isnt full of holes, because i'm all out of ideas.

[cuppabillytea]

This country was founded by this who were regarded as worthless, feckless, drunks, rebels and scum. It turned out pretty well. Don't you think?

[cafe latte]

If you make the assumption that every one on benefits is a bludging oxygen Thief then yes its fair enough. If not, then it's Neo Naziism.
Cheers, Billy.

Nobody is saying that... I have claimed benefits in the past, but now I employ people.
My problem is people making a career out of benefits or playing the weak stupid system to get on a pension when you are really fit and healthy happens a lot and it is so wrong and believe me it does happen and far too often.
Chris

[MrLandy]

Some empathy for those less fortunate would not go astray here. There are other government expense portfolios with far greater budgets and far less compassion. I suggest targeting Defence, corporate tax evasion, the wasteful beauracracy, politicians entitlements, even the ridiculous cost of New Year's Eve fireworks! Before blanketly slamming those who are scraping by on a pittance living on social security. The range of personal reasons is massive.

[cuppabillytea]

Nobody is saying that... I have claimed benefits in the past, but now I employ people.
My problem is people making a career out of benefits or playing the weak stupid system to get on a pension when you are really fit and healthy happens a lot and it is so wrong and believe me it does happen and far too often.
Chris
I know you weren't saying that Chris but the OP was. Your right there are too many undeserving leeches claiming benefits. There are also too many conmen Insurance fraudsters and for that matter gouging ripoff merchant business people. We are all paying for them as well. There has always been a proportion of Society which is prepared to work harder at getting something for nothing than than it is at actually producing something useful. I don't know what the solution to the problem is.
I do know this though. I am more scared of the kind of ratbag who would deny people their fundamental human rights, than I am of a tribe of feckless bludgers.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy to meet him out the back.
(Not referring to you Chris.)
Cheers, Billy.

[MrLandy]

The solution to all of the above is empathy, not blame. Listening, not quick judgement. Equity, over exclusivity. Human rights before profit.

There are plenty in big business 'exploiting the system' which costs tax payers a whole lot more than a few dole bludgers ever will.

As Steve says, Exponential growth capitalism is going to end in tears. It finds ways of excluding rather than including the more vulnerable. The ultimate result is inherently that there is only one winner. And along the way if you're not a winner? If you're one of 6% who asks for the support of the other 94% what are you? ...A loser? Hmmm fortunately as it turns out, we're not all that far along that path.

[cafe latte]

I, like most tax paying Australians am horrified at the the welfare cost in this country. But I think that many of the comments above have failed to mention some important points.
I have a close friend who works for Centre Link and I often have this argument with him. As he says, yes you can live on the dole. But its not comfortable and way would any 'normal person want too'. He tells me stories of the few people that come in that genuinely need help. But the stories of the great unwashed are more common. He says that a lot of people genuinely want some work but just to look at them you know that no one would want to employ them. the dole is set to keep the recipients in a life style that will discourage them from finding money illegally. If the dole is cut, crime will rise. the cost of the dole keeps you safe to a degree.
As for the 'send them to the Army' brigade. Why would the Army want unmotivated people? They don't have the resources to keep good, hard men looking after the dregs that would be sent from recruiting. And ultimately much more expensive to keep a check on the dole recipients though institutional methods than to just put them on the dole.
Although the dole is not cheap, it costs the tax payer less than other alternatives.
I hate that someone can sit at home on our taxes. I hate that a single mother gets more if she gets pregnant, while still on benefits. I hate that a bloke cant work and support his family because he has anxiety. If my Grandad had anxiety and didnt work, he didnt eat! and that was normal. I could go on forever. But what is the alternative?
Someone please give me a solution that isnt full of holes, because i'm all out of ideas.

We do need a welfare system, but like you I dont understand why having another baby get the mother more benefits. I have one tenant who is on baby number 6. She is receiving benefits and she drives a really nice V8 ute from the proceeds.
In my opinion a welfare recipient should have to work in parks or whatever in work for the dole schemes 40 hours a week, this way they may as well get a real job. Work for the dole if easier than a real job ie if they dont have to work every day it wont help get people out of the cycle of benefit dependency.
Chris

[AndyG]

I would agree with work/study for the dole / benefit IF it leads to skills that can translate into real employment. Even the skill of turning up on time, can be a winner.

[cuppabillytea]

I would agree with work/study for the dole / benefit IF it leads to skills that can translate into real employment. Even the skill of turning up on time, can be a winner.

I agree. The carrot is more effective than the stick.

[roverrescue]

The comment above about people prepared to work hard at achieving something from nothing rather than being useful made me smile... You realise that sums up the entire financial system !!! Have a look at how much money travels through the financial market compared with actual useful economic activity !

If we are beating on people on social security let's throw in the day traders too. They bleed more money from the entire society than any single mum of six...

You are chasing the low hanging fruit in a good old Aussie dole bashing exercise.

S

[vnx205]

Simple.
... ... ..
.........


Finding a simple solution to complex problems is easy.

What is a bit more difficult is finding a solution that doesn't create other even bigger problems.

[THE BOOGER]

Some empathy for those less fortunate would not go astray here. There are other government expense portfolios with far greater budgets and far less compassion. I suggest targeting Defence, corporate tax evasion, the wasteful beauracracy, politicians entitlements, even the ridiculous cost of New Year's Eve fireworks! Before blanketly slamming those who are scraping by on a pittance living on social security. The range of personal reasons is massive.


To give an idea on welfare expenditure in 2012/2013 welfare was 136 Billion dollars.

Defence in the same year was 24 Billion.

Unfortunatly the way spending is going it will not be a matter of what welfare should be cut but are there any welfare payments at all. it will take us a while but we will reach the Greek levels of govt debt in 20 years if we don't get things sorted now. There are just too many people claiming a welfare payment and not enough people working to pay for it. its going to take some hard decisions now but no pollie wants to make them and there are to many groups yelling for more:(

[cafe latte]

The comment above about people prepared to work hard at achieving something from nothing rather than being useful made me smile... You realise that sums up the entire financial system !!! Have a look at how much money travels through the financial market compared with actual useful economic activity !

If we are beating on people on social security let's throw in the day traders too. They bleed more money from the entire society than any single mum of six...

You are chasing the low hanging fruit in a good old Aussie dole bashing exercise.

S

Nobody is attacking people on the dole, just those bleeding the system. Those who are genuine claimants I only have sympathy for. My friend in the UK who really needs disability pension, actually they wont even give him a disabled parking sticker even though he can only shuffle about 10 yards. This is wrong and clearly the system is too harsh and not helping those who need it. Here in Aus it is big time the other way far too many people are getting disability pensions (like the guy I mentioned) who are in perfect health. If people genuinely need help they should get it and if a person is on unemployment benefit they should have to work for it this way we wont see long term unemployed. Here the system is broken and it is costing a fortune.
Chris

[Hall]

I have due to the fact that I work casual have been out of work to the point where I investigated welfare. At any given time in Australia there approximately 700000 people looking for work and there is only approximately 100000 jobs. Not hard to do the maths and realize that getting work is not as easy as some might think. Also to consider is for example a skilled worker who has a life style and debts based on a wage of about $1200 then is asked to shovel manure for $500 a week. Easy to say there is a job for every one if we all had the same pay rate and debts. We are at the moment reducing our debts so I can take a job that pays less because there is a lot less jobs now in my trade.
As posted I believe conscription into the armed forces would be a great idea. Not necessarily to teach then how to kill some one but to teach them a trade where possible as well. Harden the youth of today up and also give them skill that they need.
Cheers Hall

[cafe latte]

I have due to the fact that I work casual have been out of work to the point where I investigated welfare. At any given time in Australia there approximately 700000 people looking for work and there is only approximately 100000 jobs. Not hard to do the maths and realize that getting work is not as easy as some might think. Also to consider is for example a skilled worker who has a life style and debts based on a wage of about $1200 then is asked to shovel manure for $500 a week. Easy to say there is a job for every one if we all had the same pay rate and debts. We are at the moment reducing our debts so I can take a job that pays less because there is a lot less jobs now in my trade.
As posted I believe conscription into the armed forces would be a great idea. Not necessarily to teach then how to kill some one but to teach them a trade where possible as well. Harden the youth of today up and also give them skill that they need.
Cheers Hall

My point was really about people who have either never had a real job or never will have one because they dont want one. Some families have done this for two or three generations this has to stop. Real claimants I have no issues at all with, I have been there myself years ago.
Chris

[ramblingboy42]

Conscription was probably a good idea years ago because we needed "cannon fodder" and dumb-bums to do underwater panel beating and folding blankets.

Nowadays, the average infantry soldier has to be fairly smart to understand and effectively use the weapon systems and communication systems common to their task.

With the skills training available now and the high rates of pay available in the armed forces recruiting can be quite selective in who they sign on now......there is actually a line up.

[cuppabillytea]

My point was really about people who have either never had a real job or never will have one because they dont want one. Some families have done this for two or three generations this has to stop. Real claimants I have no issues at all with, I have been there myself years ago.
Chris
Hi Chris. It is not your post that is the problem. It is the supposed statement by a 12 year old girl in the original post that is the problem. Your opinion is valid and reasonable I think.
Cheers, Billy.

[roverrescue]

Of the 120bill in welfare... What proportion is for "unemployment benefits" vs family tax benefit a and b... So very very many hard working Aussies who are keen to bash on the unemployed are happy to take child care rebates, zonal offsets , low pool offsets etc etc.

I think cutting the family tax benefit will save Australia quicker than turning unemployed people into hungry angry no other choice but to steal problems ?

[AndyG]

Be careful what you wish for, although no one actually is, in PNG, there is zero social welfare for anything. It is pretty tough for the masses.
Hence the expectation of Govt graft to support your own clan, 9 for me, 1 for you

[Graz]

We need to lower the number, it is way to high, most live on payments. Yet some are happy to house these people. And make a living out of them via the government payment. Not all are immigrants. Why do we need all this population growth it is destroying this country and the planet. People will destroy what we have. The number of people on this planet is the problem. If people object to what is going on, then don't take advantage of the situation buy making money from the current situation. If you need to make money so be it. But not at a price of more immigrants or people on the dole. If people don't deserve the dole report it.

Dole recipients should have to provide regular drug tests. Most of us are subject to this in the "workforce".
It really grates on me as a taxpayer having to pay for someones drug habit. I know it happens as I have three nephews abusing the safety net.

Graz

[mikehzz]

Common sense tells me that work for the dole would actually create more unemployment. Flooding the market with cheap labour surely wouldn't end well? Plus the government wants us to work into old age....

[MrLandy]

Common sense tells me that work for the dole would actually create more unemployment. Flooding the market with cheap labour surely wouldn't end well? Plus the government wants us to work into old age....

Yes Mikehzz, thank you. The market is craving cheap labour for all the wrong reasons. This is a massive issue in our growth capitalist society. It's keeping people with low incomes in the poverty trap. Fruit picking is an example, where unscrupulous hosts/farmers charge pickers more for their dorm style accom than they can earn per week in the orchards!

Work for the dole sounds fine until you realise that it actually limits opportunity. Bring back free education, training and increase refugee intake I say, to create active real incentive based economies that are built on opportunity, rather than threat. Empowering those who are less fortunate is the solution, not veiled slave labour as punishment for life's circumstance.

There will always be a small percentage of unemployed people. Looking after them well is the mark of an egalitarian society, indeed of 'civilization'. Most people don't want to live in poverty, they often simply don't have the right mix of opportunities to enact positive change.

Drug use, alcohol abuse and violence are symptoms of the failings of a growth capitalist system across all echelons of society. It is unjust to single out those who are financially less fortunate.

[bob10]

Yes Mikehzz, thank you. The market is craving cheap labour for all the wrong reasons. This is a massive issue in our growth capitalist society. It's keeping people with low incomes in the poverty trap. Fruit picking is an example, where unscrupulous hosts/farmers charge pickers more for their dorm style accom than they can earn per week in the orchards!

Work for the dole sounds fine until you realise that it actually limits opportunity. Bring back free education, training and increase refugee intake I say, to create active real incentive based economies that are built on opportunity, rather than threat. Empowering those who are less fortunate is the solution, not veiled slave labour as punishment for life's circumstance.

There will always be a small percentage of unemployed people. Looking after them well is the mark of an egalitarian society, indeed of 'civilization'. Most people don't want to live in poverty, they often simply don't have the right mix of opportunities to enact positive change.

Drug use, alcohol abuse and violence are symptoms of the failings of a growth capitalist system across all echelons of society. It is unjust to single out those who are financially less fortunate.


You win the prize. Best answer so far. I sincerely hope you are in a position to make a change happen.

[bob10]

Conscription was probably a good idea years ago because we needed "cannon fodder" and dumb-bums to do underwater panel beating and folding blankets.

Nowadays, the average infantry soldier has to be fairly smart to understand and effectively use the weapon systems and communication systems common to their task.

With the skills training available now and the high rates of pay available in the armed forces recruiting can be quite selective in who they sign on now......there is actually a line up.


I have to take you to task on the first part of your reply. Rubbish. The second paragraph, it has always been so, through the ages. The third, recruiters have always been selective. When the excrement hits the rotating device, not so selective.

[scrambler]

Be careful what you wish for, although no one actually is, in PNG, there is zero social welfare for anything. It is pretty tough for the masses.
Hence the expectation of Govt graft to support your own clan, 9 for me, 1 for you

Tenkyu tru, Andy.

After spending a few years in PNG as a kid I still can't believe that Australians will consider themselves hard up and yet still never consider growing their own food. No-one in Australia is poor by PNG standards, and I for one am happy about that. Mind you, a little of the PNG entrepreneurial spirit wouldn't go astray from time to time.

Before the 1930's Australia didn't have much social welfare, and no dole. The unemployed or chronically disabled lived by charity and minor crime. Slums were a reality, with dirt floors in poorer houses. Life expectancy was on par with third world countries (like PNG) today.

While we can afford it as a country, everyone's life is better with a social safety net. I wonder how many advocates of no welfare have seen, let alone lived in, dirt poverty?

[cafe latte]

Work for the dole need not impact the work force, there should be an option to retrain yourself ie learn a new trade or something for your 40 hours a week. Other options should be to do voluntary work for your 40 hours this again wort really hurt the work force. Here in Ravenshoe for example we have Rural fire fighters brigades who would love the extra help, even the regular town brigade who I am a part timer in are desperate for new members. There is a railway in town which is run by enthusiasts I am sure they would love free help fixing and maintaining the tracks. What I am saying is there are lots of options to give a work for the dole something constructive to do for 40 hours a week without impacting on jobs.
Chris

[MrLandy]

Work for the dole need not impact the work force, there should be an option to retrain yourself ie learn a new trade or something for your 40 hours a week. Other options should be to do voluntary work for your 40 hours this again wort really hurt the work force. Here in Ravenshoe for example we have Rural fire fighters brigades who would love the extra help, even the regular town brigade who I am a part timer in are desperate for new members. There is a railway in town which is run by enthusiasts I am sure they would love free help fixing and maintaining the tracks. What I am saying is there are lots of options to give a work for the dole something constructive to do for 40 hours a week without impacting on jobs.
Chris

Sorry Chris I have to disagree. People receiving social security benefits should not be seen as 'free labour'. They also need to spend their time in either accredited training or looking for employment, this all takes time. They don't have time to donate 40hrs week to any organisation. Quite apart from the fact that social security payments do not equate to a fair wage for a 40hr week. ...Rather, what you describe are roles for financially secure philanthropists.

If an unemployed person is able to donate some time to a fire brigade or railway enthusiasts group outside of work hours, obviously that would be great for all involved.

With respect I suggest the 'young woman worried about her future' should do just that, focus on her own journey, and along with many others, not make outrageous presumptions about other people's life circumstances.

[cuppabillytea]

I agree with Bob that MrLandies post #64 is the best so far but unlike Bob I agree with all of it, even though Bob and Chris still have ideas that are worth consideration.
Cheers Billy.

[cuppabillytea]

Work for the dole need not impact the work force, there should be an option to retrain yourself ie learn a new trade or something for your 40 hours a week. Other options should be to do voluntary work for your 40 hours this again wort really hurt the work force. Here in Ravenshoe for example we have Rural fire fighters brigades who would love the extra help, even the regular town brigade who I am a part timer in are desperate for new members. There is a railway in town which is run by enthusiasts I am sure they would love free help fixing and maintaining the tracks. What I am saying is there are lots of options to give a work for the dole something constructive to do for 40 hours a week without impacting on jobs.
Chris
I have done the type if work you would consider as Work for the Dole Descaling Boilers. shovelling **** Karting, Stock Feed. The list goes on. The pay wasn't much better than the Dole but I did it of my own volition. I'd be absolutely buggered six ways if I'd do it because some Bastard old me I had to, and even if I relented there is no way I'd put in the same effort or attention to quality.
Cheers, Billy.

[vnx205]

Given the revelation in post #29, surely the title of this thread needs to be changed.

Something along the lines of "Complaints of a middle aged male who is quite willing to criticise things he obviously doesn't fully understand".

Another possibility might be, "Grumpy old man tars all welfare recipients with the same brush".

Both of those are more accurate than the original title. :)

[boa]

It is all good and well to say, this is how people should live force our views on an idealist view. ISIS is doing this and we condemn them. Yes there views are extremely out there and wrong to most of us. But forcing people to work or volunteer will not help. When I was working for the government we had people who were redeployment people. They could not be sacked. So we're given other jobs to do. We were always correcting there work or fixing there sabotaging efforts. The thing is forcing people to do what they don't want to has never worked. Education for most will but that takes time and money. But I think in the long term more effective and a better outcome.

[isuzurover]

Dole recipients should have to provide regular drug tests. Most of us are subject to this in the "workforce".
It really grates on me as a taxpayer having to pay for someones drug habit. I know it happens as I have three nephews abusing the safety net.

Graz

What about cigarettes and alcohol?

So, we give them a drug test. They fail. "Dole" payments are then revoked.
As a result crime rates skyrocket because they need to steal to pay for their habit now. Not to mention the cost for the government to administer the tests would probably be greater than any savings.

As others have said. There are no easy answers.

[Graz]

What about cigarettes and alcohol?

So, we give them a drug test. They fail. "Dole" payments are then revoked.
As a result crime rates skyrocket because they need to steal to pay for their habit now. Not to mention the cost for the government to administer the tests would probably be greater than any savings.

As others have said. There are no easy answers.

I believe there would be savings in the long term even if the testing was random like in the aviation industry.
A bad test result could be the recipient getting a card that allowed them to purchase the essentials of life only like food and rent etc.
I am against what has become a way of life for some and there are instances where this is generational. The dole should only be a safety net.
My Wife taught in a grade 7 class and she had a lesson on vocations and the kids had to comment on aspects family members careers. There were some kids in the class that did not have any family members working, including parents, uncles etc. These kids came from large families.

There is an expectation it seams that it is a right that the taxpayer will support them, regardless of personal effort, my nephews included.

My view is it is a privilege not a right

I reiterate, dole recipients buying drugs is totally unacceptable the same as
someone buying drugs from the proceeds of crime. I cant see how any reasonable person would find this view unpalatable.

[cafe latte]

Sorry Chris I have to disagree. People receiving social security benefits should not be seen as 'free labour'. They also need to spend their time in either accredited training or looking for employment, this all takes time. They don't have time to donate 40hrs week to any organisation. Quite apart from the fact that social security payments do not equate to a fair wage for a 40hr week. ...Rather, what you describe are roles for financially secure philanthropists.

If an unemployed person is able to donate some time to a fire brigade or railway enthusiasts group outside of work hours, obviously that would be great for all involved.

With respect I suggest the 'young woman worried about her future' should do just that, focus on her own journey, and along with many others, not make outrageous presumptions about other people's life circumstances.

I did not say that people on the dole should be seen as free labour, I said they needed to work ie nobody should see being on the dole as a lazy lifestyle option which it is for many today. Those on the dole (I have been there too) should either sign up for course which will help get them employment or have to do charity work or work for the dole. If these things are not law them many sit at home doing bugger all not just week to week but entire generations, mum dad, then kids and their kids. If dole is hard then people will go and get a job.
Chris

[MrLandy]

...Are you blokes serious? You were making it sound like the good life! So I looked it up. The dole is only $261.70 per week!

...How many drugs, alcohol and smokes do you think you can get for that? That is after you've paid rent, bills, phone, food, transport, etc! ...Oh yeah and the caviar.

Sounds pretty hard to me. ....Seriously. Keep it real blokes.

[bob10]

...Are you blokes serious? You were making it sound like the good life! So I looked it up. The dole is only $261.70 per week!

...How many drugs, alcohol and smokes do you think you can get for that? That is after you've paid rent, bills, phone, food, transport, etc! ...Oh yeah and the caviar.

Sounds pretty hard to me. ....Seriously. Keep it real blokes.

People talk about those on the dole sitting at home doing nothing. I know a couple of young blokes on the dole. Not the best educated blokes, both had jobs, but were laid off. they are required to apply for a certain amount of jobs per week, or the dole is cut. I've seen these blokes go from confident young men to men with low self esteem, and self worth. You can only take so many knock backs, before you feel like giving up. And the stories they have told me about Center link? Seriously, certain parts of Center link are a hindrance, not a help. A lot of job seekers are prepared to take anything, and good on them. A lot of these are taken advantage of, not being paid super, not getting award wages, not paid overtime, is it any wonder some of them have a negative view of the World.

Interesting the thoughts of some on here. It's almost as though they don't realise the dole queue may be just an economic downturn away.

[cafe latte]

...Are you blokes serious? You were making it sound like the good life! So I looked it up. The dole is only $261.70 per week!

...How many drugs, alcohol and smokes do you think you can get for that? That is after you've paid rent, bills, phone, food, transport, etc! ...Oh yeah and the caviar.

Sounds pretty hard to me. ....Seriously. Keep it real blokes.

Average couple on the dole get the rent paid (all my rentals bar one are centerlink paid). My friend works for the community center apparently the big new problem is ice addiction as it is so cheap. It is estimated 1/3 of claimants have an ice habit if true this is shocking. Then there are people that use other drugs, but not ice... Dole is not the good life, but believe it or not many people treat dole as a career. Many of my tenants for example will claim centerlink all their life by choice. I know of a few who are very able and intelligent who could do anything if they applied themselves but they wont.
How dole claimants afford what they do I dont know, I guess it is each persons priorities. Alcohol (which is cheap) and for some drugs is more important than good food and stuff for the kids, sad but true.
I know many on the dole are genuine and for them it is hard, like I said I have been there in the past for a short time, but my point is not about genuine claimants it is about those that use the system. My time unemployed was very short as I made it a job to get a job. I know guys in their 50's who have never worked this is the problem and these are the people that the system needs to help change.
Chris

[DiscoMick]

People talk about those on the dole sitting at home doing nothing. I know a couple of young blokes on the dole. Not the best educated blokes, both had jobs, but were laid off. they are required to apply for a certain amount of jobs per week, or the dole is cut. I've seen these blokes go from confident young men to men with low self esteem, and self worth. You can only take so many knock backs, before you feel like giving up. And the stories they have told me about Center link? Seriously, certain parts of Center link are a hindrance, not a help. A lot of job seekers are prepared to take anything, and good on them. A lot of these are taken advantage of, not being paid super, not getting award wages, not paid overtime, is it any wonder some of them have a negative view of the World.

Interesting the thoughts of some on here. It's almost as though they don't realise the dole queue may be just an economic downturn away.


Being on the dole can be very depressing and depression is a serious problem with many people on it. Not many people choose that as a way of life, often they just can't find a way out of it. Some employers treat them as cheap or free labour and rip them off too.
I've never been unemployed myself, I've always found work, and I don't encourage it, but I wouldn't belittle people either.
Reality is 5% unemployment is full employment in this country, it isn't going to go any lower, that's just the way it is, and bashing people on the dole does nothing to improve their lives.
Work for the dole schemes rarely lead to full employment, their main benefit is to make other people feel good because the unemployed are being made to do something for their support.
Making people apply for jobs they have little chance of getting just results in numerous knock backs from employers who are sick of people wasting their time applying for jobs they are unqualified to get. Getting people into training is a better option, as long as it is real training and not shonky rip-offs like some RTOs.
A better answer for unemployment is greater infrastructure investment, since it usually has positive results if done properly. For example, I see the reconstruction of the Pacific Highway is employing about 12,000 people. The NBN is another valuable infrastructure investment. I would also like to see the much-discussed rail interstate projects go ahead, as they could generate a lot of benefits. The inland gas pipeline linking Darwin with the southern states also sounds like a great idea. These projects have beneficial results, unlike some of the make-work schemes favoured by ultra-conservatives, which are just a way of punishing the disadvantaged.
Instead of criticizing the unemployed, let's do positive things to improve our society.

[cafe latte]

Being on the dole can be very depressing and depression is a serious problem with many people on it. Not many people choose that as a way of life, often they just can't find a way out of it. Some employers treat them as cheap or free labour and rip them off too.
I've never been unemployed myself, I've always found work, and I don't encourage it, but I wouldn't belittle people either.
Reality is 5% unemployment is full employment in this country, it isn't going to go any lower, that's just the way it is, and bashing people on the dole does nothing to improve their lives.
Work for the dole schemes rarely lead to full employment, their main benefit is to make other people feel good because the unemployed are being made to do something for their support.
Making people apply for jobs they have little chance of getting just results in numerous knock backs from employers who are sick of people wasting their time applying for jobs they are unqualified to get. Getting people into training is a better option, as long as it is real training and not shonky rip-offs like some RTOs.
A better answer for unemployment is greater infrastructure investment, since it usually has positive results if done properly. For example, I see the reconstruction of the Pacific Highway is employing about 12,000 people. The NBN is another valuable infrastructure investment. I would also like to see the much-discussed rail interstate projects go ahead, as they could generate a lot of benefits. The inland gas pipeline linking Darwin with the southern states also sounds like a great idea. These projects have beneficial results, unlike some of the make-work schemes favoured by ultra-conservatives, which are just a way of punishing the disadvantaged.
Instead of criticizing the unemployed, let's do positive things to improve our society.
The reality is that many unemployed do choose benefits as a career, you many not believe it but it is true. As I said I have 6 houses 5 are long term (very long term) Centerlink. My friend has around 30 rentals and almost all are long term Centerlink. Not because they want a job and cant get one, but because they are happy as they are. The local Real estate agent has over 300 rentals on the books most are centerlink I know as we talked about it just the other day. Ravenshoe has around 800 residents. 300 at one of the two property agents, plus private landlords like myself, that is a LOT of centerlink. My friend has been renting for years and now he is renting to the next generation of centerlink, very sad that people do this out of choice, but many many many do.
Chris

[isuzurover]

The reality is that many unemployed do choose benefits as a career, you many not believe it but it is true. As I said I have 6 houses 5 are long term (very long term) Centerlink. My friend has around 30 rentals and almost all are long term Centerlink. Not because they want a job and cant get one, but because they are happy as they are. The local Real estate agent has over 300 rentals on the books most are centerlink I know as we talked about it just the other day. Ravenshoe has around 800 residents. 300 at one of the two property agents, plus private landlords like myself, that is a LOT of centerlink. My friend has been renting for years and now he is renting to the next generation of centerlink, very sad that people do this out of choice, but many many many do.
Chris

Small rural towns are not a representative cross section of the whole of Australia.

I notice you do well financially out of centrelink payments ;)

[cafe latte]

Small rural towns are not a representative cross section of the whole of Australia.

I notice you do well financially out of centrelink payments ;)

There are a lot of small towns across Aus I wonder how much of the total unemployed they represent? My guess is a LOT. Quite a large number raping the system IMO.
I do well out of Centerlink, ironic I pay taxes and it is payed back to me...I would be far happier with tenants with jobs, but that is how it is..

[Chenz]

Aus. Government website states:

in 2014‑15 the social security and welfare, health, defence and education functions account for nearly two thirds of total expenses, with social security and welfare accounting for slightly more than one third of total expenses;

This is unsustainable in the future. A caring society such as ours should always have a safety net for those who through no fault of their own, fall on hard times.

The area that needs looking at is the multi-generational welfare recipients who see it as their right to be housed, and looked after by Mr & Mrs Joe Q Taxpayer.

I work in western Sydney in and area with a high percentage of public housing. Children are encouraged to put their name down as soon as they are eligible to get their very own Houso place.

This does not stop them from covering themselves in tattoos, driving cars with mag wheels and loud stereos and hanging out at the pub.

I see no problem in restricting my hard earned tax dollars to ESSENTIAL living items only. There are plenty of areas suffering from environmental degredation such as our waterways choked with noxious weeds and pollution. I see no problem in getting able bodied people to assist with the rehabilitation of these areas in exchange for welfare.

Too many apologists for this sort of behaviour for too long. Enough is enough

[cuppabillytea]

What does unsustainable mean, and why are those who seem to resent their hard earned Tax Dollars being given to unworthy welfare recipients, always seeking to regulate the appearance and entertainment of these people?

[cafe latte]

Aus. Government website states:

in 2014‑15 the social security and welfare, health, defence and education functions account for nearly two thirds of total expenses, with social security and welfare accounting for slightly more than one third of total expenses;

This is unsustainable in the future. A caring society such as ours should always have a safety net for those who through no fault of their own, fall on hard times.

The area that needs looking at is the multi-generational welfare recipients who see it as their right to be housed, and looked after by Mr & Mrs Joe Q Taxpayer.

I work in western Sydney in and area with a high percentage of public housing. Children are encouraged to put their name down as soon as they are eligible to get their very own Houso place.

This does not stop them from covering themselves in tattoos, driving cars with mag wheels and loud stereos and hanging out at the pub.

I see no problem in restricting my hard earned tax dollars to ESSENTIAL living items only. There are plenty of areas suffering from environmental degredation such as our waterways choked with noxious weeds and pollution. I see no problem in getting able bodied people to assist with the rehabilitation of these areas in exchange for welfare.

Too many apologists for this sort of behaviour for too long. Enough is enough

I totally agree. We go to work, I am happy for my tax dollars to be spent on welfare but not if they sit at home watching tv.
Chris

[DiscoMick]

Aus. Government website states:

in 2014‑15 the social security and welfare, health, defence and education functions account for nearly two thirds of total expenses, with social security and welfare accounting for slightly more than one third of total expenses;

This is unsustainable in the future. A caring society such as ours should always have a safety net for those who through no fault of their own, fall on hard times.

The area that needs looking at is the multi-generational welfare recipients who see it as their right to be housed, and looked after by Mr & Mrs Joe Q Taxpayer.

I work in western Sydney in and area with a high percentage of public housing. Children are encouraged to put their name down as soon as they are eligible to get their very own Houso place.

This does not stop them from covering themselves in tattoos, driving cars with mag wheels and loud stereos and hanging out at the pub.

I see no problem in restricting my hard earned tax dollars to ESSENTIAL living items only. There are plenty of areas suffering from environmental degredation such as our waterways choked with noxious weeds and pollution. I see no problem in getting able bodied people to assist with the rehabilitation of these areas in exchange for welfare.

Too many apologists for this sort of behaviour for too long. Enough is enough

No change there. Social security, health, defence and education have always been the great majority of federal government expenses. That's why we have a federal government - to do the things private business can't do. Would you prefer people to be starving on the streets, or robbing our houses to survive?

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[trog]

I do wonder about the effectiveness of the private job networks. Seems there are always tales of rotating doors as they get kick backs for placing long term unemployed into jobs that end shortly after the minimum duration has been passed. Then back onto welfare and another cycle begins.

[MrLandy]

No change there. Social security, health, defence and education have always been the great majority of federal government expenses. That's why we have a federal government - to do the things private business can't do. Would you prefer people to be starving on the streets, or robbing our houses to survive?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Well said Mick.

If people are really worried about increasing expenditure on social security, health, defence, then get used to it because one result of the growth capitalist system is the winner take all mentality: and guess what that constantly creates - a growing underclass of disenfranchised people. Long term unemployment is a direct result of this cause. As is the growing incidence of mental health concerns including depression. And yes the privatised job networks are clearly ineffective because like the majority of businesses their charter is profit over people.

To exacerbate all of this, we no longer have free education, so any semblance of societal equality in terms of opportunity to learn and create opportunities for oneself through education is now also about the advantaged and the disadvantaged. Widening the gap between the haves and the have nots.

I suggest that if free education were reinstated, we'd see big savings in social security and health.

[cuppabillytea]

Well said MrLandy another great Post.

[AndyG]

Well said Mick.


To exacerbate all of this, we no longer have free education, so any semblance of societal equality in terms of opportunity to learn and create opportunities for oneself through education is now also about the advantaged and the disadvantaged. Widening the gap between the haves and the have nots.

I suggest that if free education were reinstated, we'd see big savings in social security and health.

No free education, ok i've been away for a while, i understood primary & secondary education was available free apart from pernicious project & trip fees. If im wrong please correct.

As for Tertiary/ Vocational/TAFE , i support the concept of a generous & widespread Scholarship system based on ability, personal need, and Community need for that skill. No point training a 1,000 aerospace engineers if we only need 50.

Carte blanche for all & sundry no.

Comment,
One of my employees (National) has just been selected by Ausaid to do an 18 month scholarship at Swinburne. Fees , airfares & a stipend is covered , the Course addresses a National skill need and he is required to return to PNG and work in a rural area. So generous and tighly focused, that's the go.

We should be identifying the best & brightest of those who are disadvantaged and giving then an opportunity, a good Boarding School from Grade 7 for example. I am deliberately not nominating race, creed or gender.

[isuzurover]

I must apologise once again for interjecting with some actual facts ;)
4102.0 - Australian Social Trends, Sep 2011 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features20Sep+2011#3)

ABS data on long term unemployment (defined as >52 weeks).

FNQ (including Raveshoe) has 2.5 times the national rate of LTU people. So any anecdotes from t' north are not representative of the rest of Australia.

AndyG - what you highlight is already done. There are a finite number of commonwealth supported places in tertiary education are allocated according to market demands. Note that they are "supported" not free. The government pays the university annually for the place, the student pays the government back via payroll tax deduction, with the amount indexed to inflation. These places are only open to AU citizens.

Countries like Germany have free education for both citizens and international students alike. Their system seems to work well.

[cafe latte]

I must apologise once again for interjecting with some actual facts ;)
4102.0 - Australian Social Trends, Sep 2011 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features20Sep+2011#3)

ABS data on long term unemployment (defined as >52 weeks).

FNQ (including Raveshoe) has 2.5 times the national rate of LTU people. So any anecdotes from t' north are not representative of the rest of Australia.

AndyG - what you highlight is already done. There are a finite number of commonwealth supported places in tertiary education are allocated according to market demands. Note that they are "supported" not free. The government pays the university annually for the place, the student pays the government back via payroll tax deduction, with the amount indexed to inflation. These places are only open to AU citizens.

Countries like Germany have free education for both citizens and international students alike. Their system seems to work well.
I realize Ravenshoe is not representative of Aus, if it was nationally unemployment rates would be a lot higher than they are. I do not think Ravenshoe is an isolated case though I am sure there are many small towns and suburbs across Aus with the same problems of very long term (permanent in many cases) unemployed.
I am not against a good safety net, but there must be away to stop benefit abuse like it happens all too often.
Chris

[cafe latte]

Also it is not just Australia. The UK has many areas right across the country with communities with similar issues. I have spent quite a bit of time in Italy too and it seems Italy has similar issues too with some areas with very long term unemployed.
Chris

[Chenz]

No change there. Social security, health, defence and education have always been the great majority of federal government expenses. That's why we have a federal government - to do the things private business can't do. Would you prefer people to be starving on the streets, or robbing our houses to survive?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

No I would prefer them to get off their arse and provide some contribution to society for the money they get in benefits.

If they can't or won't get a job, give them one that will make a positive contribution. Sitting around at home or up the pub bored gives them more of an opportunity and reason to rob and steal than having them down on the Nepean River removing noxious weeds and replanting native vegetation or similar type projects.

I do not begrudge helping people who are down on their luck, but those that make a conscious decision to live off the welfare tit get no sympathy from me

[Orkney 90]

I'm no expert, but I always believed that the "age pension" is what a person gets as support from the government after the hard years of work and paying taxes.

But is there any difference for those who have taken the dole their whole life, then changing onto the age pension? Welfare is welfare whatever title it comes under. My parents worked their entire life, paid their taxes and have never been a burden on the community. Are they entitled to the "age pension"? Absolutely.

Is a dole bludger who reaches "age pension" age entitled? I don't think so. Why should good hard working people who have really done their bit for their community get exactly the same "age pension" as those who have never bothered to do anything with their lives EXCEPT be a burden on society?

I understand there are those who genuinely need help in the form of welfare. But when it is a LIFE CHOICE to be on the dole, then there is no sympathy from me.

And just to make myself clear, I work up to 12 days a fortnight at ridiculous hours and pay an absurd amount of tax so that other people out there can make that conscious choice to live off welfare... I'm not buying the bleeding hearts stories. There should be a major crackdown on welfare cheats, get them off their arses and if nothing else put them to work cleaning the streets and removing graffiti rubbish.

[bob10]

I'm no expert, but I always believed that the "age pension" is what a person gets as support from the government after the hard years of work and paying taxes.

But is there any difference for those who have taken the dole their whole life, then changing onto the age pension? Welfare is welfare whatever title it comes under. My parents worked their entire life, paid their taxes and have never been a burden on the community. Are they entitled to the "age pension"? Absolutely.

Is a dole bludger who reaches "age pension" age entitled? I don't think so. Why should good hard working people who have really done their bit for their community get exactly the same "age pension" as those who have never bothered to do anything with their lives EXCEPT be a burden on society?

I understand there are those who genuinely need help in the form of welfare. But when it is a LIFE CHOICE to be on the dole, then there is no sympathy from me.

And just to make myself clear, I work up to 12 days a fortnight at ridiculous hours and pay an absurd amount of tax so that other people out there can make that conscious choice to live off welfare... I'm not buying the bleeding hearts stories. There should be a major crackdown on welfare cheats, get them off their arses and if nothing else put them to work cleaning the streets and removing graffiti rubbish.

You asked, I told you. At the age of 65,[ or perhaps 70] all Australians are entitled to apply for the aged pension. They are assessed on either income, or assets as to how much they are entitled to, so someone who is on the dole, can go from one welfare stream to another. As to whether that is fair & reasonable, not for me to judge. Now, I don't have a bleeding heart, and nor do I condone welfare cheats. But those who think they are martyrs in the workforce, and place all welfare recipients in the same box, have it wrong IMO. We all choose the road we travel, some are forced off the road through no fault of their own.

[cafe latte]

Also aged pension and pension are two different things, far too many 30-50 somethings are on a disability pension (who should not be) again part of the problem.
Chris

[V8Ian]

The dole is only a small percentage of the welfare bill, less than 10%.
No matter what system we have in place, there will be some who find ways to cheat.
What about the politicians pension scheme, that has to be the biggest welfare rip off in the country. The Defence personell used to have a similar benifit, DFRB. The pollies felt this was too generous and canned it. They kept thier own scheme though, I feel anyone who committed twenty years to the defence of this country is entitled to a generous pension, politicians however, feel they are entitled to more for six years employment in the complete safety of Parliment House.

[350RRC]

The Australian has had a couple of very succinct small articles about this sort of stuff over the last 12 months or so. These are as AFAIR:

1. All the money raised by personal income tax just covers welfare (dole, invalid pension, aged pension, etc)

2. The productivity of the private sector in Oz is in line with the general increase with the OECD average. The decline in public sector productivity is so bad it drags the whole nation down.

I could reel off endless examples of welfare rorting and public sector 'efficiency decline' from my own experience, but the only people who can (and should) deal with this are those who are supposedly elected to manage this.

That's why we pay them the big bucks. Not happy Jan.

DL

[MrLandy]

I've never heard such a load of self interested sour grapes from a bunch of people clearly in positions of privilege.

[cuppabillytea]

Sheesh I need a bear and somewhere to prop my elbow to cope with this lot.

[MrLandy]

Hmm indeed.

[DiscoMick]

Geez guys, can you agree to disagree and leave it at that?
There are people on welfare in every country, we're nothing unusual. In fact, our spending on welfare is relatvely low by the standards of developed countries. Criticising people for receiving what our governments have determined they are entitled to receive is just pointless.

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[cafe latte]

Geez guys, can you agree to disagree and leave it at that?
There are people on welfare in every country, we're nothing unusual. In fact, our spending on welfare is relatvely low by the standards of developed countries. Criticising people for receiving what our governments have determined they are entitled to receive is just pointless.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app


Back to the topic, we need welfare without it people starve and there would be far more crime too by desperate people, nobody wants that. I just believe that welfare claimants should do something for their money, training, volunteering or work for the dole. It is not about using the unemployed for free labour, but keeping the person engaged. Also when someone gets money for doing nothing they wont take low paid jobs. It annoyed me recently again talking to a tenant. I asked if they had tried looking for a job at the mill, they said it was low paid and by the time they pay tax they wont get much more than staying at home and getting the dole payments. What he was basically saying is why work when he can get the same money for doing nothing, this is the big problem with the current system.
On the other side my friend worked at the mill for around a year and recently ended up with a really well paid job in a related industry in Cairns due to his year at the mill and the good reference he got from the mill. If people are working or doing something for the payments they receive then it wont be an issue taking a low paid job as they are working anyway. Even taking this important point aside we are social creatures and sitting at home all day on your own does you no good at all and this is where drugs and alcohol problems start. Nobody is putting people down here for receiving benefits or being on the dole, I am not anyway. All I am saying is from what I have seem first hand (despite what Bob might think) people having to do something for the dole payments can only be a positive thing both for the chances of them taking a real job and more important for the persons self esteem.
Chris

[cafe latte]

Another point.. I have one tenant (actually a couple) who nobody would rent to due to his surname as the family is rather renowned for trouble. They had been staying at a relatives and someone drunk had hit their baby so the baby was taken off them. I was told by my friend at the community center that they were trying really really hard and they needed a home to get the baby back, I offered them a nice house with a garden which they took. I dont know why I took the chance, but I really believed they could change. They had been involved in drugs and alcohol in a big way so they had to have regular blood tests to have the baby back.
That was over a year ago, there is a vegie patch in the garden, they still have little furniture but it is coming together as a home. There is no more drugs and drink and he is doing extra work for the dole so he does not sit around all day at home. They are the exception to the rule he realized being busy was the best thing for his family and I am so glad I gave them both a chance. She has just had her second baby and he is hoping to get a job at a local company driving trucks in the quarry when he gets his licence back (drink driving from his old bad days of drink and drugs).
Anyway I thought I would tell you their story as it is not all doom and gloom, but even this story shows how important it is for people not to be stuck at home doing nothing.
Chris

[nugge t]

You asked, I told you. At the age of 65,[ or perhaps 70] all Australians are entitled to apply for the aged pension. They are assessed on either income, or assets as to how much they are entitled to, so someone who is on the dole, can go from one welfare stream to another. As to whether that is fair & reasonable, not for me to judge. Now, I don't have a bleeding heart, and nor do I condone welfare cheats. But those who think they are martyrs in the workforce, and place all welfare recipients in the same box, have it wrong IMO. We all choose the road we travel, some are forced off the road through no fault of their own.



Clearly not much changes around here..same ol same ol by the same ol same ol.


caffe latte has consistently made the point about people who choose welfare as a life style. It is others who have tried to muddy the message as usual..


"We all choose the road we travel, some are forced off the road through no fault of their own"


I don't see him challenging that. He is talking about the people who elect to veer off the road or elect to stay off the road once forced.

[Chenz]

You asked, I told you. At the age of 65,[ or perhaps 70] all Australians are entitled to apply for the aged pension. They are assessed on either income, or assets as to how much they are entitled to, so someone who is on the dole, can go from one welfare stream to another. As to whether that is fair & reasonable, not for me to judge. Now, I don't have a bleeding heart, and nor do I condone welfare cheats. But those who think they are martyrs in the workforce, and place all welfare recipients in the same box, have it wrong IMO. We all choose the road we travel, some are forced off the road through no fault of their own.

If you contribute to the upkeep of the road fine. If you genuinely need to helped down the road for a period of time until you get back up and going fine. If you want a free ride sorry, walk

[DiscoMick]

Another point.. I have one tenant (actually a couple) who nobody would rent to due to his surname as the family is rather renowned for trouble. They had been staying at a relatives and someone drunk had hit their baby so the baby was taken off them. I was told by my friend at the community center that they were trying really really hard and they needed a home to get the baby back, I offered them a nice house with a garden which they took. I dont know why I took the chance, but I really believed they could change. They had been involved in drugs and alcohol in a big way so they had to have regular blood tests to have the baby back.
That was over a year ago, there is a vegie patch in the garden, they still have little furniture but it is coming together as a home. There is no more drugs and drink and he is doing extra work for the dole so he does not sit around all day at home. They are the exception to the rule he realized being busy was the best thing for his family and I am so glad I gave them both a chance. She has just had her second baby and he is hoping to get a job at a local company driving trucks in the quarry when he gets his licence back (drink driving from his old bad days of drink and drugs).
Anyway I thought I would tell you their story as it is not all doom and gloom, but even this story shows how important it is for people not to be stuck at home doing nothing.
Chris
That's a great story and well done you for giving them a chance.
I'm forever telling my students to "Make good choices" because "Actions have results".

[cuppabillytea]

Come on you blokes. Cool down bit. Chris said the bloke was 50 years old, not that he had been on the dole for 50 years............................................. .................
So he's been on the dole for 32 years and he's too young to be on the pension.

Cheers, Billy.

[cafe latte]

Anyway when are we launching the aulro party to fix all these issues? :D
Of course there would be free rego for Land Rovers and Land Rovers would be exempt from speeding tickets (not that would help many Defender owners :wasntme:) and parking tickets. Of course double demerit point for Toyota drivers :D
Chris

[cuppabillytea]

That's great idea. What would the factions be Chris?

[V8Ian]

That's great idea. What would the factions be Chris?
Disco...............Sensible centre
RR....................Far right
Freelander....Far left
Defender........What can you say?

:D;):p

[cafe latte]

Disco...............Sensible centre
RR....................Far right
Freelander....Far left
Defender........What can you say?

:D;):p

:D
My minister ideas so far, Andy Has to be roads and he also needs fisheries too :D
Mick Marsh and Isuzurover should look after defense being military Rover buffs and Bob should be minister for propaganda, sorry Bob I could not resist it ;)
Chris

[trog]

Eavo for roads and cycle ways ?

[cuppabillytea]

Defender........What can you say?

:D;):p

Super fry brings back the crisp? :confused:

[Chops]

We had a guy at work who, when I asked him to do overtime would decline, saying he would lose money. :confused:
A little while later he resigned altogether, saying it was easier and more lucrative to be out of work and on the dole as he would save money.
He didn't actually "get more money" as such, but he didn't have the wear and tear on his car etc, gets medical for his family, rent assistance etc.

To say we were not impressed was an understatement, and on his way out, he copped quite a lot of flack. (essentially, we all hoped he rots in hell).

Why should we as hard working people, have to put up with the attitudes of these sort of people? No one "really" wants, or likes to have to work, but its part of being, a part of society.
No one begrudges people being on the dole for a time whilst they look for work, trying to do the right thing by society finding work etc. But you can see many of these people with their crappy coloured hair, steel hanging out of their faces, tattoo's everywhere, badly dressed, bad attitudes to match etc. Who would really want to employ these people? And then they have the gall to complain about "unfair this, and unfair that".
ACA (?) showed a court full of these people, found them all work through the show etc,,, and where were they all but a couple of weeks later,,, you guessed it, back at home on the couch.

As others have said, we choose our own paths, but people judge people on looks, and then assume many other things from that, attitudes etc. Yes, some people are uneducated, but that's no excuse,,, get educated. Everything is possible,, "if you want", its not about becoming a Rocket Scientist, just getting work and not being lazy, but "doing your bit".
If we all took the same attitude of the "dole bludger", where would we all be? Hard working people who pay taxes have the right to be annoyed.

[vnx205]

Sheesh I need a bear and somewhere to prop my elbow to cope with this lot.

I have to say that I find it particularly heartwarming that your childhood teddy bear still brings you comfort in times of distress such as when you are presented with evidence that some of your fellow Land Rover owners don't always keep discussion at the friendly, respectful level that usually characterises exchanges on this forum.
:p

[cuppabillytea]

I have to say that I find it particularly heartwarming that your childhood teddy bear still brings you comfort in times of distress such as when you are presented with evidence that some of your fellow Land Rover owners don't always keep discussion at the friendly, respectful level that usually characterises exchanges on this forum.
:p
:lol2:I'm a silly Billy. Must admit there isn't much left of poor old Ted. Anyone got a spare button?

[MrLandy]

:lol2:I'm a silly Billy. Must admit there isn't much left of poor old Ted. Anyone got a spare button?

Nah, not silly. Real men are defined by their willingness and confidence to show their sensitive side IMO. You can drop in for a spare button here anytime CBT.
Cheers

[cuppabillytea]

Nah, not silly. Real men are defined by their willingness and confidence to show their sensitive side IMO. You can drop in for a spare button here anytime CBT.
Cheers
Cheers Mate. :)

[cafe latte]

I have to say that I find it particularly heartwarming that your childhood teddy bear still brings you comfort in times of distress such as when you are presented with evidence that some of your fellow Land Rover owners don't always keep discussion at the friendly, respectful level that usually characterises exchanges on this forum.
:p



Back on topic.. Recently on the radio a scheme was discussed where they were going to trial a credit card that could not buy alcohol ect only food and other needed stuff. I initially though this might be a good idea, but could this actually make things worse ie a black market for stuff? Ie people selling food for drugs and alcohol??
Chris

[MrLandy]

Prohibition has been tried. So has communism. Now capitalism is in trouble.

People like choice and freedom. IMO this only truly comes via compassion and wisdom.

The few who 'choose' to exploit the dole are no more guilty than those who exploit anything. The wealthy are often just as guilty. In Australia, on world terms, the majority of us are wealthy. We often don't even know how we are all 'avoiding tax', or rorting the system. Big business and ceo's avoiding paying tax arguably costs the public purse more than social security does. Unless you are entirely self sufficient it's almost impossible to avoid. Most consumers are indirectly avoiding paying tax, which is really no less of a drain on the public purse than being unemployed.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones even if they can't see the glass.

We should all be very wary of the mindset that allows us to judge and criticise the most vulnerable without fully understanding the ramifications of our own behaviour.

Less self interest usually means more to go around for everyone.

[jon3950]

Well said, Mr Landy. I'd go so far as to suggest that in my experience the very wealthy are generally more guilty.

What this thread shows is it is a very complex problem and will not be solved by the simplistic crap espoused in the original post - and I'm not having a go at Bob when I say that.

Cheers,
Jon

[Eevo]

overall the wealthy pay more tax, even after their tax avoidance.

[bob10]

Well said, Mr Landy. I'd go so far as to suggest that in my experience the very wealthy are generally more guilty.

What this thread shows is it is a very complex problem and will not be solved by the simplistic crap espoused in the original post - and I'm not having a go at Bob when I say that.

Cheers,
Jon


No offence taken, Jon. I posted this a bit tongue in cheek, and did not expect the reaction. Yes, a very emotion loaded problem, which polarises people much more than I imagined it would. I am slightly bemused by some over the top reactions, but that is to be expected on the internet. The only solution, IMO, is to create more jobs, educate more people, and encourage the disadvantaged to join in. Get rid of businesses and bosses who take advantage of workers, create a fair work place. But, that only works in Disneyland, doesn't it?

[roverrescue]

"I do not claim any benefits... "

So on your rental properties you do not deduct the interest and rental expenses from the rent received to assess your taxable income ??? You also pay back the private health insurance rebate to the ATO ??? hmm and ravenshoe lies in a cat b remote area offset zone ??? I assume you don't claim that either ???

Not too many can validly claim to not benefit from Australia's world class welfare state.

Even a low paid, single with no dependents minimum wage earner will still benefit from a very generous tax free threshold plus a low income offset ???

Peoples should look to their communities needs a liitle more and to their own wants a little less... Perspective changes everything.

Australia does the balance of fairness across society very very well in an environment of low corruption... There is much more to love about Australian society than to whinge about.

Peace

S

[BathurstTom]

So you've worked hard all your life, but the company goes broke through no fault of your own, being aged, you can't get a job. Well now you can't vote and lose other privileges?


A government gets in power and causes huge unemployment amongst the working class, how do you vote them out?

These tin pot schemes that try to frame everyone that isn't working as a bludger are really infantile.


Tom.

[nugge t]

Prohibition has been tried. So has communism. Now capitalism is in trouble.

People like choice and freedom. IMO this only truly comes via compassion and wisdom.

The few who 'choose' to exploit the dole are no more guilty than those who exploit anything. The wealthy are often just as guilty. In Australia, on world terms, the majority of us are wealthy. We often don't even know how we are all 'avoiding tax', or rorting the system. Big business and ceo's avoiding paying tax arguably costs the public purse more than social security does. Unless you are entirely self sufficient it's almost impossible to avoid. Most consumers are indirectly avoiding paying tax, which is really no less of a drain on the public purse than being unemployed.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones even if they can't see the glass.

We should all be very wary of the mindset that allows us to judge and criticise the most vulnerable without fully understanding the ramifications of our own behaviour.

Less self interest usually means more to go around for everyone.



Avoiding tax is illegal and the ATO are charged with looking after that. Typically it is made to sound like a class war fare issue......"Big business and ceo's avoiding paying tax ". Every time a tradie does a cashie, he is avoiding tax, every time someone claims a pair of safety boots they don't wear to work or similar, they are avoiding tax.


Minimising tax is totally different, but it would appear from the commentary of some that "the wealthy", what ever that means these days, and "business", avoid tax and everyone else minimises it.




You Minimising tax is common sense and is not

[nugge t]

Give it a rest. Sounds like a guilty conscience to me. You made this personal. FYI, I am a totally self funded retiree. Bully? Dear, oh dear. Let's agree to disagree, and leave it at that.



"Not likely, since I have a part war pension. Only a part pension because of my time in the military accruing super. And spending a lot more time away from home than you. G'day, Dave. "

[MrLandy]

Ok so let's discuss 'unfair advantage' and 'generous tax free thresholds' a bit further.

For example, How many people have indirectly rorted the system by buying something at IKEA? I know I have unwittingly. I'd suggest a fair percentage of unemployed people purchase at IKEA due to price, so would the small view argument go, they are double dipping? Or are those who can afford to purchase a whole shed full of future garage sale or landfill fodder benefitting more with the cumulative effect of a 29% tax break on their purchases? Or is this some kind of strange egalitarian government scheme for all, enabling everyone to purchase low cost furniture by not enforcing tax collection?

"A memorable special report by the Economist last year put a figure as high as $20 trillion on the amount of money stashed away from the tax man. Civilisation works only if those who enjoy its benefits are also prepared to pay their share of the costs," the magazine reminded readers."

IKEA's unfair advantage | smh.com.au (http://m.smh.com.au/business/ikeas-unfair-advantage-20141106-11i4r4.html)

Forgive me if I find the economies of scale in this thread laughable. If the government enforced big business tax collection alone, it's pretty clear we could fund free education and welfare many times over. Those in our society struggling to cope with the impost of the growth capitalist system and requiring welfare, even if it is long term, pales into insignificance in the big picture of what's really going on.

Dare I say it, perhaps we can afford to give more than $267 a week for the sake of civilised harmony.

[nugge t]

Sorry, I believe all companies should pay the tax which is applicable in the country they operate, but are Ikea and others breaking the law? If so, please report them to the ATO. If they are not and you want the tax laws changed, petition you local MP. Above all, if you disagree with their corporate ethics, don't shop there.
If everyone stopped buying from IKEA, the problem would be solved but it appears self interest rules supreme even by those who supposedly "unwittingly" involved themselves despite explaining the "problem" in great detail.

[MrLandy]

Sorry, I believe all companies should pay the tax which is applicable in the country they operate, but are Ikea and others breaking the law? If so, please report them to the ATO. If they are not and you want the tax laws changed, petition you local MP. Above all, if you disagree with their corporate ethics, don't shop there.
If everyone stopped buying from IKEA, the problem would be solved but it appears self interest rules supreme even by those who supposedly "unwittingly" involved themselves despite explaining the "problem" in great detail.

Cheers Nugget, agreed. I certainly haven't shopped at IKEA since this came to light.

[cafe latte]

"I do not claim any benefits... "

So on your rental properties you do not deduct the interest and rental expenses from the rent received to assess your taxable income ??? You also pay back the private health insurance rebate to the ATO ??? hmm and ravenshoe lies in a cat b remote area offset zone ??? I assume you don't claim that either ???

Not too many can validly claim to not benefit from Australia's world class welfare state.

Even a low paid, single with no dependents minimum wage earner will still benefit from a very generous tax free threshold plus a low income offset ???

Peoples should look to their communities needs a liitle more and to their own wants a little less... Perspective changes everything.

Australia does the balance of fairness across society very very well in an environment of low corruption... There is much more to love about Australian society than to whinge about.

Peace

S

No I dont claim benefits, I pay a LOT of tax, of course I deduct costs ie fixing a gutter as this is not profit it is a cost. When I sell the properties I will pay tax on any profits I make.
I have private full cover medical insurance and any government deductions on the price I MORE than pay for from my huge tax bill which I actually dont mind as everyone needs to pay there way if they can.
Tax offsets are not benefits, the ATO gets far far far more from me than I will ever get off them, but this is how the wheels keep turning so not a problem. The only annoying thing is I pay huge tax bills and some big business pay nothing this needs to be addressed and soon.
Aus is a great place to live, but people getting disability pensions for a bad back when in there spare time they are walking around with massive logs on there shoulders (saw a bloke on a pension for a bad back doing this recently) is plain wrong and it is the fault of the system that it can happen.
Chris

[vnx205]

At some stage soon (I hope), people are going to realise that those on one side of this discussion are NOT saying that everyone on welfare is a cheat and people on the other side are NOT saying that every person receiving welfare is deserving.

When that happens, I expect this thread will fizzle out because it seems that about the only thing keeping it going at present is a failure to understand what the other side is actually saying.

:)

[cuppabillytea]

Amen

[cafe latte]

At some stage soon (I hope), people are going to realise that those on one side of this discussion are NOT saying that everyone on welfare is a cheat and people on the other side are NOT saying that every person receiving welfare is deserving.

When that happens, I expect this thread will fizzle out because it seems that about the only thing keeping it going at present is a failure to understand what the other side is actually saying.

:)

And it took 16 pages how many ways can I say it is the system is wrong not the people. Problem is the human race is super lazy. Problem is welfare is addictive..

My story is not something I want to share totally here, but I will tell you part of it... Things were good, really really good, I went to a public school etc THEN dad lost his job as happened to many at the time. Too hard to explain spin on a bit, and we found out dad had a brother we did not know about after nan died. He,(dads new found brother) had been adopted, but we found him. He maybe because of spite took mum and dad for all they had (con man) and they lost there house and they almost split up. We won through in the end as a family but they lost everything. I remember a day crying eating beans and green bread (left home and broke and too proud to ask for help), both the worst and best day of my life as that day, I vowed I would never ever be in that situation again EVER, but that day made me and I am not sorry it happened. I have lived that day many times that moment I will never forget, it is important to me and it makes me who I am. That day is why I am financially secure as I vowed I could never be in that situation again. I am not against welfare, far from it I have been there, but it cant be a way of life. I went 3 days without food ( no money at all) Bob you can call me a liar if you like I really dont care...For me hitting the bottom changed me in a good way it gave me strength, I vowed this could NEVER happen to me again and I made sure of it. We cant let the unemployed get used to handouts it is not a life to get on that tread mill. I understand why benefits are hard to kick as a habit but we must make it easier.
I have told more than I ever thought I would here or on any public forum, for me it ended good I owe nobody anything and life is good, but it is not for everyone and the system is part of the problem.
Chris
Edit.. Mum and dad are fine too dad runs a business I left when I left the UK that he has made a huge business of it. He lost everything and I gave him the business he has made such a go of which I built from nothing. Mum and Dad are super secure again. Point is people need to help themselves and be helped if they cant, but a life time on welfare cant be allowed to happen for the good of the people, but we need to help those who need help.
Rant over and a bit of my story..
Chris.

[DiscoMick]

Good on you for being independent and climbing up the greasy pole.
Human nature is certainly a problem and it's normal for people to make the most of their situation. I also agree that some people are lazy and will bludge on welfare if they can. However, I don't agree that makes the system wrong, it's the attitudes of the people that are the problem.
Welfare is supposed to be the safety net that catches people when they fall and helps them back to independence.
Good on you for encouraging independence.
I have actually never been on welfare as I came from a very independent-minded farming family and we would rather go without than take the dole.
On the other hand, I have seen plenty of people fall, be saved by welfare, get back up and re-establish themselves. I don't think we should abandon that approach just because a small number of people want to be lazy.
Overall, the benefits to society outweigh the costs. I have lived in countries without a proper welfare system and seen things I wouldn't want to see in Australia, so I don't recommend we copy their example.
Our social security spending is actually modest by the standards of developed countries, so I don't think we have a big problem. For example, the cost of superannuation tax concessions, which benefit the wealthy the most, is now matching the total cost of the pension, which mostly benefits the poor. I agree that super tax concessions need to be curbed, but I'm not sure which method would be best.

[V8Ian]

I was listening to the radio at work last night, there were people complaining that athletes representing Australia overseas, were having their disability pensions suspended, whilst offshore. They seemed to miss the point that people who are fit enough to play top level sport, are fit enough to work. Para-olympic participants excepted.

[DiscoMick]

I suppose it depends on the cause of their disabilities. Mental illness is a disability.

[MrLandy]

I don't think it's up to any of us, from the epic distance of a Land Rover owners forum, to pontificate on who should and who shouldn't receive a disability pension.

[cuppabillytea]

I heard of a bloke last night at work. He is an Epileptic. Bad enough. He had an Operation to fix it but now he has episodes when he can't remember any thing at all for a couple of hours and is mildly schizophrenic. No use to anyone but appears totally normal for several hours of the day.
He is on a Disability Pension but would you blame him if he didn't go around telling everyone about his condition?

[cafe latte]

I heard of a bloke last night at work. He is an Epileptic. Bad enough. He had an Operation to fix it but now he has episodes when he can't remember any thing at all for a couple of hours and is mildly schizophrenic. No use to anyone but appears totally normal for several hours of the day.
He is on a Disability Pension but would you blame him if he didn't go around telling everyone about his condition?

This is a very good point, but the bloke I am talking about I know he is getting disability for a bad back. If you can carry half a small tree, maybe 70kg on your shoulder your back is not bad enough to need a disability pension.
Chris

[AndyG]

This is skirting Current Affairs

Your kids are not our problem?: Senator David Leyonhjelm lets fly over Australia's ?obsession? with families etc etc

Basically everyone look after your own, if you have them, your responsibility.

But quite different to those who cannot work

[DiscoMick]

Another point is that recent governments have forced a lot of people off other support such as Newstart, but for various reasons they actually can't work full-time, so they have gone onto the disability pension. Others who know more than me make those decisions, so I won't try to second-guess them. Also, by delaying the age at which people can get the aged pension, more people have instead gone onto the disability pension.
What I do know is that the current level of unemployment (about 5%) is about as low as it ever gets historically. Any lower and employers complain they can't get workers and wage rate start rising rapidly, fuelling inflation.
By developed nation standards our unemployment and social security costs are relatively low. Good column about it here:


http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2015/feb/12/the-truth-about-bludgers-welfare-dependency-in-australia-is-falling

[MrLandy]

What I do know is that the current level of unemployment (about 5%) is about as low as it ever gets historically. Any lower and employers complain they can't get workers and wage rate start rising rapidly, fuelling inflation. By developed nation standards our unemployment and social security costs are relatively low.

Another great post DM, exactly.
Thanks for your clear thinking.
Cheers

[trog]

What would the "real" unemployment rate be if those who don't qualify for any benifits , and therefore dont register with centrelink , be ?

[MrLandy]

What would the "real" unemployment rate be if those who don't qualify for any benifits , and therefore dont register with centrelink , be ?

I don't know the numbers, but it would be substantial, along with those 'under employed' casual workers who can't get a full time job no matter how hard they try. However this has also long been the case, so would still fit with the official 5% level that DM raises.

[DiscoMick]

What would the "real" unemployment rate be if those who don't qualify for any benifits , and therefore dont register with centrelink , be ?

I don't know as it's hidden uemployment, but maybe double the official rate? That's nothing new though, always been that way.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[nugge t]

Another point is that recent governments have forced a lot of people off other support such as Newstart, but for various reasons they actually can't work full-time, so they have gone onto the disability pension. Others who know more than me make those decisions, so I won't try to second-guess them. Also, by delaying the age at which people can get the aged pension, more people have instead gone onto the disability pension.
What I do know is that the current level of unemployment (about 5%) is about as low as it ever gets historically. Any lower and employers complain they can't get workers and wage rate start rising rapidly, fuelling inflation.
By developed nation standards our unemployment and social security costs are relatively low. Good column about it here:


The truth about 'bludgers': welfare dependency in Australia is falling | Business | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/business/grogonomics/2015/feb/12/the-truth-about-bludgers-welfare-dependency-in-australia-is-falling)



Yep 5% is historically full employment for those who want to work. The issue is that many assume the 5% want to work. The truth is a % are rorting the system which is a cost real tax payers should not have to wear.


The real discussion which needs to be had in my opinion is we want to keep constantly adding to our spending without ever reducing, what is the tax rate required and are Australians willing to pay it. See all we ever do is increase spending with the assumption that pouring more money in, is the only answer. Health, Welfare and Education are the prime examples and no one ever appears to bother to work out if we get value for money. To make any change is political suicide because clearly reducing any spending is never "fair".


What I do know is that it is always easier to be "fair" when you are spending someone else's money.

[isuzurover]

...See all we ever do is increase spending ...

Yet again, sorry to ruin your argument with facts:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/136.jpg

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/5436772/data/chart-australian-government-spending-and-revenue-data.jpg

As you can see government spending has gone down at times and in general remains fairly steady. The big issue is revenues are falling in the current economic climate (commodity prices, etc...). In many ways I agree with your general argument though. However if we are to address issues with welfare we also need to address issues with housing affordability, unsustainably high wages, etc... Like many on here I benefit from negative gearing, but it adds no value to the economy and I think we should look at removing negative gearing on established homes. That and change the tax loopholes so the likes of ikea and news corp pay their fair share just like all the small businesses do...

[AndyG]

Sorry,
Your confusing % changes with absolute changes in spending. They may or may not track,
Current unemployment 5.9 - 6.2 % depending on assumptions, seasonality etc.
Which is still historically low.

Absolute bottom line i thought was around 4 % to have some liquidity in the work force.

By all accounts there is a huge non participating unemployed , like myself at one point, no point registering, no benefits, find my own job. THe ratio is something like 2:1 between non participating vs on benefit finding jobs.
Article is a bit long
https://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/january-2014/not-everyone-who-joins-the-ranks-of-the-employed-was-unemployed


Is the hoo haw about those on unemployment benefits, if there is a hoo haw, or those perceived to be getting disability etc when not entitled to it.

I see there is a bereavement allowance ! which was news to me.

Have to be careful with lies damned lies and statistics here, not that anyone is lying, but often a matter of interpretation.

[nugge t]

Yet again, sorry to ruin your argument with facts:

http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/5436772/data/chart-australian-government-spending-and-revenue-data.jpg

As you can see government spending has gone down at times and in general remains fairly steady. The big issue is revenues are falling in the current economic climate (commodity prices, etc...). In many ways I agree with your general argument though. However if we are to address issues with welfare we also need to address issues with housing affordability, unsustainably high wages, etc... Like many on here I benefit from negative gearing, but it adds no value to the economy and I think we should look at removing negative gearing on established homes. That and change the tax loopholes so the likes of ikea and news corp pay their fair share just like all the small businesses do...



You should be sorry as at no time am I aware that I was quoting increased spending as a % of GDP. In $ terms spending keeps going up


MYEFO 2011-12 - Appendix D: Historical Australian Government data (http://www.budget.gov.au/2011-12/content/myefo/html/13_appendix_d-01.htm)


2000-2001 177,123
2005-2006 240,136
2010-2011 333,600


These figure are in $m so in 10 years the expenditure has nearly doubled or increased by $159,000,000. I understand that for some of those with numerous negatively geared properties this is chump change but it looks like big bickies to me.


I would certainly agree we need to address unsustainably high wages.

[DiscoMick]

Yep 5% is historically full employment for those who want to work. The issue is that many assume the 5% want to work. The truth is a % are rorting the system which is a cost real tax payers should not have to wear.


The real discussion which needs to be had in my opinion is we want to keep constantly adding to our spending without ever reducing, what is the tax rate required and are Australians willing to pay it. See all we ever do is increase spending with the assumption that pouring more money in, is the only answer. Health, Welfare and Education are the prime examples and no one ever appears to bother to work out if we get value for money. To make any change is political suicide because clearly reducing any spending is never "fair".


What I do know is that it is always easier to be "fair" when you are spending someone else's money.


The economy keeps growing, the population keeps rising, the tax take keeps rising with growth and so spending increases - that's normal. The real comparison is spending as a % of GDP and overall its stable.
The percentage of welfare fraud is stable and low by world standards, according to various studies.
Lots of people work out if we get value for money. For example, the Gonski report (Gonski is a respected businessman) recommended ways of improving the value for money we get from education, but the Abbott Government canned his report for ideological reasons.
Same with health. Medicare is highly efficient and relatively low-cost compared with the alternatives, such as the American system, in which health costs are so high that a huge number of people can't afford to get sick.
I think the real issue is not efficiency but ideology. Its a clash of visions of what is a fair system. Some people want to return to a past system which was changed because the majority did not think it was fair and it favoured the privileged. Abbott tried to run a government for the privileged and the public revolted. It's yet to be seen if Turnbull is any different.

[isuzurover]

You should be sorry as at no time am I aware that I was quoting increased spending as a % of GDP. In $ terms spending keeps going up

...

Either you are joking or your are just trying to be an difficult. Expenditure as % GDP or % tax revenue is the only metric that makes sense given our rapidly growing population.


The Australian population growth rate:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/128.jpg
http://cdn3.chartsbin.com/chartimages/l_eoo_45b739414a40ac11afacf3f3167b2a1d

Means that it is impossible to reduce expenditure in total $$$ values unless we want to end up like aq 3rd world country with beggars on the streets.

Also, the age pension is the largest component of welfare expenditure and is the one forecast to increase the most as the population ages:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/129.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/news/linkableblob/5230270/data/the-australian-governments-projected-welfare-spend-data.png

Nevertheless, total government spending did reduce in the late 80's and early 90's so your statement is still wrong. :p
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2015/11/130.jpg
http://archive.treasury.gov.au/documents/1352/images/03_spending_growth-2.gif

[MrLandy]

Well the population graph is wrong for a start. There certainly weren't zero people here in 1788.

[nugge t]

You can take it anyway you like. Equally you can make it as complex as you want, or keep it simple.


Expenditure nearly doubled in 10 years, population didn't. We are spending it somewhere, but regardless, we are spending it.

[isuzurover]

Well the population graph is wrong for a start. There certainly weren't zero people here in 1788.

It is not 0. The value is 859. It is just close to 0 because of the y-axis scale. The indigenous population were counted as flora and fauna back then not people.



So still unable to admit you are wrong nugget????

[MrLandy]

I give up on this thread too.

[DiscoMick]

It is not 0. The value is 859. It is just close to 0 because of the x-axis scale. The indigenous population were counted as flora and fauna back then not people.



So still unable to admit you are wrong nugget????

Indigenous populaton was hard to know for sure but at least 300-500,000 thousand.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[mikehzz]

I thought it was bullstar and the no such word filter kicked in? :p

[AndyG]

Regardless of % or absolute, the graph showing how the money is split up was very informative, thanks.

[scarry]

It is not 0. The value is 859. It is just close to 0 because of the y-axis scale. The indigenous population were counted as flora and fauna back then not people.


Fact?:confused:

[mikehzz]

Fact?:confused:

I call myth. Read this....

INDIGENOUS RECOGNITION AND CONSTITUTIONAL MYTHS - Constitutional Critique (http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/cru/2015/06/indigenous_recognition_and_con.html)

[DiscoMick]

Great post. Everyone please read the link.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[isuzurover]

I call myth. Read this....

INDIGENOUS RECOGNITION AND CONSTITUTIONAL MYTHS - Constitutional Critique (http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/cru/2015/06/indigenous_recognition_and_con.html)

Thanks. Looks like I need to go back and tell my high school history teacher they were wrong.
However they still weren't counted as people back then.



In recent years, an Aboriginal politician even referred to growing up under a state Flora and Fauna Act.

Several states did, indeed, often manage Aboriginal affairs through departments that also handled flora, fauna and wildlife.

But there is nothing to show Aboriginal people were ever classed as one and the same, despite the fact they were not being counted in the official human population.



Myths persist about the 1967 referendum | SBS News (http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/03/10/myths-persist-about-1967-referendum)

[Mick_Marsh]

The Aboriginal people have always been counted, from the very first Commonwealth census in 1911
So, they weren't counted before 1911. What did they do between 1788 and 1901?

It's interesting what we were taught at school. I was taught the Aboriginals were nomadic and lived in bark humpies.

It has been known for quite some years, the local Aboriginals lived in stone huts with turf roofs and cropped the land.

[mikehzz]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Australia

[cuppabillytea]

I took no facts from School. I didn't believe most of it and didn't understand the rest. They did teach me how to be critical and how to learn though. I thank them for that.

[mikehzz]

I took no facts from School. I didn't believe most of it and didn't understand the rest. They did teach me how to be critical and how to learn though. I thank them for that.

I think it's great that you left all your facts at school so that someone else could learn them. There isn't enough consideration like that in the world today. :D

[cafe latte]

I think it's great that you left all your facts at school so that someone else could learn them. There isn't enough consideration like that in the world today. :D

I value my education, my degree and masters I dont regret at all. My degree was Applied biology and my masters was Conservation biology. I have learned a lot of life skills since, but I would never trade my education for anything. I dont use my yaears for study for my trade (farm and rentals), but I dont regret the years of study for a moment.
Chris

[bob10]

You can take it anyway you like. Equally you can make it as complex as you want, or keep it simple.


Expenditure nearly doubled in 10 years, population didn't. We are spending it somewhere, but regardless, we are spending it.

Try, by funding fighting other peoples wars.

[DiscoMick]

I took no facts from School. I didn't believe most of it and didn't understand the rest. They did teach me how to be critical and how to learn though. I thank them for that.
That's the main purpose of learning - to teach how to adapt to a changing future. Facts go out of date. Two of my children have jobs that didn't exist when I went to school.
What we need to learn is how to learn. Or, as I frequently tell students, the most important thing we learn in school is how to make good choices.

[cuppabillytea]

Exactly.:BigThumb: