Is the amps limitation a killer for Tesla batteries

[PhilipA]

I have been following a discussion in Business Spectator by green enthusiast Tristan Edis.

His recent articles discuss going "Off Grid" with solar panels and a battery bank and the entire discussion seems to be about KWh demand etc.

However my very incomplete understanding of electrics leads me to believe that the 5amp output of a 7Kw Tesla panel is a big problem for non enthusiasts to run a house.

According to a specialist electric web site I looked at a home grid connection generally has an output of 100amps so that you can run a jug, fridge , dryer, and air conditioner at once, however 5amps enables you only to run a jug or risk a circuit breaker drop out.

Am I correct in this?

I note that the AGL site does not even mention amp capacity of their battery systems.

I see this a BIG inhibitor to the currently very popular idea at inner city parties to go "off grid". I cannot imagine the lady of the house would be too impressed if she had the jug running, turned on the microwave and everything went dark.
Can someone with greater knowledge of electricity please set me right If my assumptions are incorrect.
Regards Philip A

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[bee utey]

There is no way such a profligate energy user would end up with just one Tesla battery pack. They are designed to be racked in groups until they are big enough to meet your load. To run a single pack you would have it wired so that the biggest loads are left out and you would have lights and some critical circuits only. I have a small battery backup system (about 2kWh) in my house, and the first thing I do after a significant power failure is to switch off the wall plugs of any hungry appliances so junior or the wife don't use them. The battery will happily run the fridge and freezer so long as they don't come on at exactly the same time, or the inverter browns out. Cooking and kettle boiling continues on the gas stove and the evaporative a/c can be used if the sun is shining on the backup battery's solar panels. And we don't have an electric clothes drier, I didn't think anyone could afford to run one of them these days. :o

One time we had a major failure I forgot it was near bed time and the wife had her electric blanket on. The battery was flat in an hour or so, it won't happen again! :p

[isuzurover]

As above...

In our case, for the cost of connecting to the grid on a rural property in WA (power already on block, just need western power to install a stepdown transformer), we could install a 5 kW solar system and about 50 kWh battery system.

As solar and battery prices come down the power companies are in danger of pricing themselves out of the market...!

[Vern]

The Tesla job by is only good for a hybrid system, you would need too many to go fully off grid, I can't see it being financially viable.
I am about to install a full off grid system at a customers house, 5.5kw of panels, 750ah batteries and still needing an auto start gene for days of autonomy. That's costing $35k, how many Tesla panels can you get for $35k?

[isuzurover]

The Tesla job by is only good for a hybrid system, you would need too many to go fully off grid, I can't see it being financially viable.
I am about to install a full off grid system at a customers house, 5.5kw of panels, 750ah batteries and still needing an auto start gene for days of autonomy. That's costing $35k, how many Tesla panels can you get for $35k?

Tesla are like apple. People will buy them for the styling and the name. However i expect they will be good quality.
Costs i have seen are 3500 for 10kW and 3000 for 7kW. Not sure if that is au or us pesos.

[bee utey]

The Tesla batteries are designed to earn their keep with daily deep discharge, something that lead acid doesn't do so well at. I can see how a hybrid system of some lithium capacity to cover the expected daily use and lead acid for longer term backup would be an economical way to design a stand alone system.

[PhilipA]

Costs i have seen are 3500 for 10kW and 3000 for 7kW. Not sure if that is au or us pesos.

I have seen a report that the 7Kw will cost AUD 11500, adding in the Australia tax, GST, greedy distributor etc. Remember that in the USA Musk is very heavily subsidized by the USA government to the tune of $4 billion.

BTW I have noticed recently that the cost of Automotive style Lithium batteries has increased quite a lot recently from AFAIR $1195 to $1400+ for a 100+AH..

So what makes us think that Lithium batteries are getting cheaper other than pronouncements By Musk? ( who was reported recently as losing over USD4000 on each car sold and being in a race to profitability to fend off insolvency)

Regards Philip A

[isuzurover]

I have seen a report that the 7Kw will cost AUD 11500, adding in the Australia tax, GST, greedy distributor etc. Remember that in the USA Musk is very heavily subsidized by the USA government to the tune of $4 billion.

BTW I have noticed recently that the cost of Automotive style Lithium batteries has increased quite a lot recently from AFAIR $1195 to $1400+ for a 100+AH..

So what makes us think that Lithium batteries are getting cheaper other than pronouncements By Musk? ( who was reported recently as losing over USD4000 on each car sold and being in a race to profitability to fend off insolvency)

Regards Philip A

Firstly, I think you are confusing retail price for the system and installed prices.

Press Kit | Tesla Motors Australia
www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/presskit
Tesla Powerwall is a rechargeable lithium-ion battery designed to store energy at a ... Tesla's selling price to installers is $3500 for 10kWh and $3000 for 7kWh.
Though these prices were probably set before the $AU took a nosedive.

As to the rest of your post - the $AU took a nosedive, which explains the price increases on everything we import.

[PhilipA]

Hmm,yet I seem to see that laptops have not increased in price at all or not much.

They come from the same place.
And if the batteries are getting cheaper ie there is downward pressure on the wholesale prices I would expect that the batteries would also stay near their previous prices.

Regards Philip A

[DiscoMick]

Bradfords were promoting Tesla 7kw systems with solar on Facebook for $15,000 or the battery pack alone for $10k. Think I'll wait for the cost to fall.

[JDNSW]

There is a useful thread on Powerwall in whirlpool.net.au. Seems the first retail customer in Australia has just had a system installed at a cost of $17,000, but $5000 of that was solar panels.

John

[PhilipA]

Yes there is an article in today's Australian which looks very much like a publicity handout by the Tesla resellers.
The bloke commented he would not be able to run an electric jug, but had bought a caravan small one.LOL.
I read in a USA publication a little while ago that currently the Tesla battery is made up of a zillion Panasonic small (AFAIR the reporter said just bigger than AA) batteries, most probably what they call sub C.
So currently the batteries are the same as in your trusty drill or overseas Prius ( I understand that Toyota plans that OZ models will have nicad) only lots of them.
It will be interesting to discover whether Tesla is able to achieve the great cost savings that he hopes from his ( US government subsidised) mega factory where he plans to build all components for the Powerwall.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

Yes there is an article in today's Australian which looks very much like a publicity handout by the Tesla resellers.
The bloke commented he would not be able to run an electric jug, but had bought a caravan small one.LOL.
I read in a USA publication a little while ago that currently the Tesla battery is made up of a zillion Panasonic small (AFAIR the reporter said just bigger than AA) batteries, most probably what they call sub C.
So currently the batteries are the same as in your trusty drill or overseas Prius ( I understand that Toyota plans that OZ models will have nicad) only lots of them.
It will be interesting to discover whether Tesla is able to achieve the great cost savings that he hopes from his ( US government subsidised) mega factory where he plans to build all components for the Powerwall.
Regards Philip A

People want to buy Tesla batteries because the brand name has some serious street cred amongst the tech heads. Nothing wrong with that, it's the same brand recognition that sells Range Rovers.

The point of the grid connected Tesla battery isn't to run the house on its own, it's there to reduce consumption during high demand times where smart meters up the price of electricity. It doesn't need to cover every load to provide a cost benefit, it just has to supply electricity that would have generated a feed in tariff of 5c in place of mains electricity at a much higher price. Electric utilities that whine about solar users bumping up peak evening power usage should be ecstatic, but instead they're whining about lost revenue.

The cells used in these batteries are designated as 18650 size, nothing to do with NiCad battery sizes. Mass production keeps unit costs down.

As for government subsidies for Tesla to manufacture his own cells, I should bloody well hope so. After all, fossil fuel production has seen the benefit of subsidies since nearly forever. Would you prefer a modern high tech factory in your district, or just another filth spewing coal power plant? Even now generators are selling their old coal mines for a pittance to new owners who will suddenly evaporate when asked to clean up the mess. The taxpayer ends up paying anyway.

[PhilipA]

You mean coal that supplies over 80% of our power even with subsidies and mandatory buying of wind power?

You mean coal in the terrible network that supplied a record consumption of electricity last week keeping all those air conditioners going?

You mean coal that produces CO2 which makes plants grow and is pumped into greenhouses and has greened the world?

You mean coal where CO2 levels have risen but the temperature hasn't for 18 years?

I guess you will prefer the utopia of subsidies that will never end for wind, solar and batteries , and where the real payoff period exceeds the useful life.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

You mean coal where CO2 levels have risen but the temperature hasn't for 18 years?


Snort, you've been reading too much Wattsup's trash again. Enjoy your "coal is good for humanity" fable, if it lets you sleep soundly at night. ;)

[PhilipA]

How come green zealots whoops supporters always use emotive words like

or just another filth spewing coal power plant?

Anyway who thinks that any new coal plants will be
filth spewing.

and
Snort, you've been reading too much Wattsup's trash again

You know invective does not take the place of argument and shows desperation that the religious cause is slipping away as the world goes on after the many dates that global warming whoops climate change is meant to have "ruined us all" as Hanrahan said.

PS Looks like Sydney will have a record wet summer in the middle of an El Nino . Who would have thunk it. Not any "climate scientists " I have read.
Shows how little they really know.

Regards Philip A

[NavyDiver]

Fire sparks concerns over lack of standards on battery storage : Renew Economy (http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/fire-sparks-concerns-over-lack-of-standards-on-battery-storage-52193)

Even Tesla are pulling back removing the 10kw offering
Tesla Discontinues 10-Kilowatt-Hour Powerwall Home Battery | Greentech Media (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Tesla-Discontinues-10kWh-Powerwall-Home-Battery)

[ADMIRAL]

HERE'S ONE FOR THE DEBATE !
107163

The entire rationale for wind turbines is to stop global warming by reducing the amount of CO2 being returned to the atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels.

In the attached picture, recently taken in Sweden, freezing cold weather has caused the rotor blades of a wind turbine to ice up bringing the blades to a complete stop.

To fix the ?problem? a helicopter is employed (burning aviation fuel) to spray hot water (which is heated in the frigid temperatures using a truck equipped with a 260 kW oil burner) on the blades of the turbine to de-ice them.

The aviation fuel, the diesel for the truck, and the oil burned to heat the water, could produce more electricity (at the right time to meet demand) than the unfrozen wind turbine could ever produce. (Before it freezes up again).

The attached picture is a metaphor of the complete insanity of the climate change debate.

In decades to come this one photo alone with sum up an era of stupidity, when rational thought, logic and commonsense was abandoned and immense wealth and resources needlessly sacrificed.

[AndyG]

And please don't measure the CO2 to install it in the first place.
If you really believe humanity have stuffed the planet, don't have kids.

[NavyDiver]

At least other options are about to start shipping, https://www.zcell.com/

10kWh and safe- been used in use in industry for 15 years now. Powerwall is cool in their cars but not going to cut it in our homes or business IMO. The best bit for business and homes I.M.O. is the inverter for the Zcell is a full function UPS.

[Vern]

Powerwall, great marketing, its just a battery, still needs an inverter.
Look here in aus first, Redback make a hybrid inverter with batteries, aussie made, pricing is better as well.

[697-Nodad]

Powerwall, great marketing, its just a battery, still needs an inverter.
Look here in aus first, Redback make a hybrid inverter with batteries, aussie made, pricing is better as well.

I would look at installing one of these z-cell flow batteries.....

But it looks to me these consumer grade batteries have been purposely crippled. (business reasons?)

To me the biggest advantage of flow batteries is that extra capacity can be gained by simply adding extra electrolyte storage. Cheap and easy to do!!

But it looks like this is not an option with these Aussie made 10kWh z cells?

I'll wait for the Chinese to bring out a generic hackable version, or another Australian company to do the right thing and come to market with a full potential design.

Cheers
Simon