Front and Rear lockers... Why?

[Will Wallace]

For years I have wondered, but never asked.
If the center diff is locked, and the rear diff is locked, then why would you need a front locker?
To me it doesn't make mechanical sense.

If centre and rear are locked, then isn't the front essentially in lay terms also locked.
I understand it isn't locked, but it also shouldn't slip.

[PSI250]

Without a front locker the front is still only "1" wheel drive. If that one wheel is in the air or on very low traction surface well then your relying solely on the rear.

[Will Wallace]

If the centre diff is locked then thus should not be the case.

[isuzurover]

If the centre diff is locked then thus should not be the case.

With the centre diff unlocked you have one wheel drive (lift one wheel off the ground and you will go nowhere).

Centre diff locked gives you 2wd. Add rear locker gives 3wd and so on. If you only have a rear locker you can still spin one front wheel with cdl locked.

[Will Wallace]

I don't mean to sound rude, but please read the original post.
My question is laid out there clearly.

[Will Wallace]

Does the LT 230 not fully lock?

[rangieman]

I don't mean to sound rude, but please read the original post.
My question is laid out there clearly.

Re read isuzurovers post if you dont get that give up and buy a dunnydoor:p;)

[V8Ian]

Will, lock the CD and the front and rear drive shafts turn at equal speeds. The drive is then split at the front and rear diffs, the wheel with least resistance, at each end will turn. Now lock the rear diff and each rear wheel will turn at equal speed but the front wheel with least resistance will be the only wheel on that axle being driven.

[isuzurover]

I don't mean to sound rude, but please read the original post.
My question is laid out there clearly.

I read and understood your question the first time around. There is something lacking in your understanding of how diffs work.

When you spin one wheel on an axle it turns twice as fast as when you are turning both wheels. Is that the bit you are missing? If you have 2 diffs locked the 3rd diff can still spin one wheel twice as fast as the other 2 or 3 are being driven.

[Will Wallace]

I must be missing something.
If the CD is locked, therefore forcing the front and rear drive shafts to turn at the same speed.
Then you also lock either your front or rear diff, the remaining open diff will not allow full differential action, as it is not locked but restricted by the locked CD and cross axle diff lock.

Therefore there there should minimal to no slip on the open cross axle diff.

I understand how a diff works. The reason for the original post is, why do people put in front and rear lockers?

I really must be missing something.
Hahaha

[isuzurover]

...the remaining open diff will not allow full differential action, as it is not locked but restricted by the locked CD and cross axle diff lock.

Therefore there there should minimal to no slip on the open cross axle diff.



This part is 100% wrong. The 3rd diff is still an open diff. Its behaviour is the same whether the rear diff is locked or not.

[Will Wallace]

So the CD doesn't fully lock?

[isuzurover]

So the CD doesn't fully lock?

Why do you keep saying that? The centre diff locks fully. Equal drive goes to front and back. But that doesn't mean that all the drive going to the front can't spin one wheel only.

If you lock the cdl and rear diff, then jack up both rear wheels and one front and try and drive, the front wheel in the air will turn at twice the speed of the rears but the front wheel on the ground will not turn. I can't see how it can be hard to understand that.

[Will Wallace]

I'll have to give it a go.

[isuzurover]

I'll have to give it a go.

There was a video floating around comparing fitting a single locker in the front or the rear. It should have what you need.

[V8Ian]

In the unlocked position (all diffs, front, centre [CDL] and rear), the engine is driving the transfer box via the gearbox. The CDL is the first diff driven, it sends the drive to EITHER the front OR rear diff. Which ever diff the drive goes to, sends the drive to EITHER the left OR right wheel. The vehicle is effectively being driven by one wheel.
Now engage the CDL and the drive is being sent equally to both front and rear diffs, which are still sending the drive to EITHER the left OR right wheel. The vehicle is now effectively being driven by two wheels, one front and one back.
Next engage the rear diff lock and the drive is being sent equally to both left and right wheels, only at the rear. The vehicle is now effectively being driven by three wheels, one front and two back.
The unlocked front diff is still sending drive to EITHER the left OR right wheel.
None of us were born with this knowledge, we aquired it from somebody who had the patience to explain it to us.

[Will Wallace]

I get this.
I'm not trying to be difficult.
There then should be no slip in the unlocked diff.
I'm wondering why people fit front and rear lockers.

I'll go pull some of my Lego apart tomorrow and see what I am not understanding.

[V8Ian]

Will, I can see your logic but consider a vehicle on a surface that offers no traction. With CDL and rear locked, both rear wheels will spin at x RPM, one of the front wheels will spin at 2x RPM. Quite likely the front wheels will spin alternately.

[WAWoody]

These may help explain it.................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvOgneVbVnE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwJEU7p9U2Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U1SLSV9wNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmd28-Dj_iU

[WAWoody]

And plenty more here.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIGvhvOhLHU&list=PL7RMeP5a41RoJpLltJTyXWGU-r8vuohOJ

[MrLandy]

What doesn't make sense in the one, two, three, four wheel drive explanation is why, with the CDL locked, if it is still only effectively a two wheel drive, there is transmission wind up on hard surfaces? Surely if the one two three four rule is correct, and the front and rear diffs remain open to allow for differential wheel rotation speeds around corners, there would still be no transmission wind up with CDL locked?.

I suggest that there is some validity to both arguments, because even with no diffs locked the vehicle is attempting to drive all four wheels. With CDL locked the vehicle is still attempting to drive all four wheels and there is no slip possible between front and back. With a rear locker engaged, the vehicle is still attempting to drive all four wheels, and there is no slip between the two rear wheels, and so on.

My point is that the vehicle is always ATTEMPTING to drive all four wheels (which is why it's called a 4WD), but that when a wheel loses traction, and all torque is seemingly directed to that wheel, the other wheels are still ATTEMPTING to be driven, even though the open diff locks are allowing slip and they are not turning.

[mikehzz]

There is transmission wind up with the cdl locked on hard surfaces because it is possible for the front and rear axles to be trying to turn at slightly different rates due to pressure from the good traction surface when one of the front wheels has more or less distance to travel than one of the rear wheels.

[MrLandy]

There is transmission wind up with the cdl locked on hard surfaces because it is possible for the front and rear axles to be trying to turn at slightly different rates due to pressure from the good traction surface when one of the front wheels has more or less distance to travel than one of the rear wheels.

Thanks mike, exactly. So it's not one wheel drive with no diffs locked.
Cheers

[mikehzz]

Well it is. Without the cdl locked then only the front or rear will drive if either loses traction, and only the left or right wheel on that axle will drive. I had it happen in an old Subaru, lift one wheel and it was the only wheel that would spin even though it was supposed to be all wheel drive. If it had a cdl then at least one of the wheels on the other axle would have a go.

[rick130]

Thanks mike, exactly. So it's not one wheel drive with no diffs locked.
Cheers


But it instantly is if you reduce traction or lift a wheel at either end.

If you never lift a wheel or have the vertical load reduced on a wheel such that it never exhibits wheel spin you'd never need an ATB/LSD/locker.

With the CDL and rear locked and an open front diff and you reduce traction/lift a wheel on the front axle so that a front wheel is spinning you are instantly running a 2wd vehicle, the torque split to the front axle will be spinning the wheel with the least traction.
The torque to the front axle is wasted.

[mikehzz]

Maybe it's simpler to say it this way. A differential gives power to the wheel with least resistance. A locked differential isn't a differential at all, it's a solid axle that transmits the power to whatever is connected to it.
In 4wd/awd with all diffs not locked, then the power will be given to the single wheel with the least resistance. It's what diffs do. So the centre diff will decide if the wheel is on the front or rear axle and the axle diff will decide if it's the left or right wheel.
If you lock the centre diff then the centre diff decision is removed, both the front and rear get drive. The diffs on each axle decide which wheel gets drive, it will be the wheel with least resistance on each axle.
If you lock the rear diff then the decision for that axle is removed, both its wheels will turn in unison along with one of the front wheels decided by the front diff...the wheel with least resistance.
Lock the front and you have no diffs. All wheels on the car will turn at the same rate with the same power.

[MrLandy]

Yes but in the majority of real world situations it is not one wheel drive because you don't lift one wheel off the ground. Even a small amount of grip is enough to re-direct torque/drive to other wheels and this happens constantly.

In extreme conditions diff lockers are definitely good. If you had the CDL locked and a rear diff lock engaged but no front locker, drive would still be directed to both front wheels, but if one of those was raised off the ground or was spinning in mud with no traction, the other front wheel would have no drive. That's clear. But as soon as that front wheel is back on ground or gets s little traction the other front wheel would then be back in action.

Hope this helps Will.

[MrLandy]

I'm no expert on gear/diff/final drive ratios, but there is certainly something in the gear ratio/CDL design/diff ratio/diff design of a Defender that makes it a lot less likely to become bogged than say a Toyota Land Cruiser or Hilux. The number of times I've driven around stuck toyotas through the most difficult line, to then tow them out is crazy. ...It can't just be the driver😇 ...I know because I've driven Toyotas for work for years and their open diffs seem to have less resistance (become bogged/spinning in mud) much more easily than my Defenders.

[mikehzz]

Yes, the actual real world situation of which wheel has the least resistance is a constantly changing fluid situation and it's a mechanical marvel that it all works in my view. There are many instances where all the wheels have the same effective resistance.

[vnx205]

I'm no expert on gear/diff/final drive ratios, but there is certainly something in the gear ratio/CDL design/diff ratio/diff design of a Defender that makes it a lot less likely to become bogged than say a Toyota Land Cruiser or Hilux. The number of times I've driven around stuck toyotas through the most difficult line, to then tow them out is crazy. ...It can't just be the driver😇 ...I know because I've driven Toyotas for work for years and their open diffs seem to have less resistance (become bogged/spinning in mud) much more easily than my Defenders.

I suspect that has more to do with things like weight distribution and suspension travel and compliance than ratio choice.

[mikehzz]

I saw a D4 struggling badly a few weeks ago where I was having no trouble. The driver was what I would call an expert and I know what a D4 can do, but the car needed new tyres. Tyres are the most important thing on the car in my book. Look at the tojos tyres plus they mostly have crap power and torque. Most of them are weighted down with a tonne of bolt on accessories as well. :D

[MrLandy]

I saw a D4 struggling badly a few weeks ago where I was having no trouble. The driver was what I would call an expert and I know what a D4 can do, but the car needed new tyres. Tyres are the most important thing on the car in my book. Look at the tojos tyres plus they mostly have crap power and torque. Most of them are weighted down with a tonne of bolt on accessories as well. :D

Tojos have more power and torque than Defenders, but it's the way it's put down on the track that is different. Low 1st and second are lower in Defender , but I'm convinced the full time 4WD/CDL/no freewheeling hubs Land Rover setup is also far superior. There is somehow less slip in the drive train and torque is transferred better.

Tyres are definitely important more for durability I reckon. I've never needed mud tyres, despite living In tropical monsoon environments for many years. For more than a decade now I've run standard Bridgestone D661 A/T tyres which are extremely tough and good on road. Standard HD rims and no lift. No problem.

Low centre of gravity, heavy chassis, light aluminium body, excellent clearance, 4coils, more wheel travel all help too, but I'm convinced it's also in the final drive ratios and less diff slippage. Maybe someone with this technical knowledge can explain.

[rick130]

IME mud requires momentum and a high gear to minimise wheel spin.
It's the driver (and tyres) more than anything else.

Case in point, around '91/'92 we had a wet season where the then gf was living.
I had a V8 Commodore with stock LSD, she had an MQ Patrol.
195/60 road tyres (Goodyear NCT's) vs 235/85 AT's

The track into/out of the property was 400m up a reasonable hill but all clay.
I'd come around the gate off the main driveway onto the track as fast as I could, get it into third and feather the throttle all the way up with minimal wheel spin and sliding.
She'd come around the same corner in 4wd 1st and gun it all the way up, sometimes having three goes to get to the top, sliding off the edge of the track, etc.

It was all technique.

[SBD4]

I'm no expert on gear/diff/final drive ratios, but there is certainly something in the gear ratio/CDL design/diff ratio/diff design of a Defender that makes it a lot less likely to become bogged than say a Toyota Land Cruiser or Hilux. The number of times I've driven around stuck toyotas through the most difficult line, to then tow them out is crazy. ...It can't just be the driver😇 ...I know because I've driven Toyotas for work for years and their open diffs seem to have less resistance (become bogged/spinning in mud) much more easily than my Defenders.

along with what everyone else has said and, superior traction control.

[jon3950]

The one wheel drive analogy is actually a bit of a furphy. An open differential will always transmit the same amount of torque to each wheel, but can do it at different rotational speeds, where the average speed of the axles is equal to the rotational speed of the driveshaft.

The amount of force (torque = force x radius) that a wheel can transmit equals the normal force acting on it (ie weight) x the co-efficient of friction between the tyre and the surface. If one wheel is in the air then the co-efficient of friction is effectively zero so only enough torque to overcome losses in the drivetrain can be transmitted. This is enough to make the wheel in the air spin but because the torque transmitted to each wheel is equal, it is not enough to do anything to the wheel on the ground.

A locked differential means the rotational speeds between each axle or driveshaft are equal but the torque can be split unequally. In this case the wheel with the most grip will take as much torque as it can transmit to the ground, while the wheel with no grip will take only enough torque to overcome the drivetrain losses to rotate at the same speed.

Cheers,
Jon

[Sitec]

I don't mean to sound rude, but please read the original post.
My question is laid out there clearly.

Hi Will. Your question is fine.. I'll have a go at explaining it..

Your Land Rover has 3 differentials in it. When driving normally, they are all classed as 'open'. This means that the drive will take the easiest route. Three wheels could be on bitumen and if one wheel is in a muddy hole, this will be the wheel that spins! Your 'four wheel drive' will spin one wheel if it can.
Now we lock the CDL (center differential lock). This now means that both prop shafts turn at the same speed, so both axles will always be driven.. Each axle still has an 'open' differential.. Same scenario.. Three wheels on bitumen one in a hole. The vehicle will drive out without a problem.

Now if we change the scenario.... You have driven the left of the vehicle into a wet ditch on a dark night. You lock the CDL. Both axles have drive but the front and rear diffs are 'open'. The wheels on the road do not turn. The two in the ditch spin. You don't go anywhere.

You are still in the ditch.. Now you lock the rear diff.. The CDL is locked and the rear diff is locked. (The front diff is still open). You can now drive out of the ditch as the rear right wheel has traction on the bitumen. It is doing all of the work.

Lastly, a new scenario. The rear of the vehicle is in a muddy bog hole. The front left wheel is on loose gravel, and the front right wheel is on bitumen. You lock the CDL first.. The rear wheels spin, and ONE front wheel spins (the one on the gravel). You are still stuck. No prob you think. You lock your rear diff lock. You are still stuck. Both rear wheels spin in the mud at the same speed, both props are turning as the CDL is locked, but still the drive takes the easiest path thru the 'OPEN' front diff and spins the wheel that is on the gravel...... Now, this is where you need a front differential lock. By locking the (newly fitted) front differential lock the power can be transmitted to the wheel that is sat on bitumen and all being well you drive out of the muddy hole.

Only now with ALL 3 DIFFS locked is your Fourby a true 'Four Wheel Drive'.

Hope this helps and makes sense.

[frantic]

Hi Will. Your question is fine.. I'll have a go at explaining it..

Your Land Rover has 3 differentials in it. When driving normally, they are all classed as 'open'. This means that the drive will take the easiest route. Three wheels could be on bitumen and if one wheel is in a muddy hole, this will be the wheel that spins! Your 'four wheel drive' will spin one wheel if it can.
Now we lock the CDL (center differential lock). This now means that both prop shafts turn at the same speed, so both axles will always be driven.. Each axle still has an 'open' differential.. Same scenario.. Three wheels on bitumen one in a hole. The vehicle will drive out without a problem.

Now if we change the scenario.... You have driven the left of the vehicle into a wet ditch on a dark night. You lock the CDL. Both axles have drive but the front and rear diffs are 'open'. The wheels on the road do not turn. The two in the ditch spin. You don't go anywhere.

You are still in the ditch.. Now you lock the rear diff.. The CDL is locked and the rear diff is locked. (The front diff is still open). You can now drive out of the ditch as the rear right wheel has traction on the bitumen. It is doing all of the work.

Lastly, a new scenario. The rear of the vehicle is in a muddy bog hole. The front left wheel is on loose gravel, and the front right wheel is on bitumen. You lock the CDL first.. The rear wheels spin, and ONE front wheel spins (the one on the gravel). You are still stuck. No prob you think. You lock your rear diff lock. You are still stuck. Both rear wheels spin in the mud at the same speed, both props are turning as the CDL is locked, but still the drive takes the easiest path thru the 'OPEN' front diff and spins the wheel that is on the gravel...... Now, this is where you need a front differential lock. By locking the (newly fitted) front differential lock the power can be transmitted to the wheel that is sat on bitumen and all being well you drive out of the muddy hole.

Only now with ALL 3 DIFFS locked is your Fourby a true 'Four Wheel Drive'.

Hope this helps and makes sense.

This is what I would say with one extra thing to confuse and warn you.
If you have a td5 or Pumas defender 110/90don't try it out by jacking up 1-3 wheels as most had traction control which will apply the brakes to the spinning wheel/s directing power to the one with the most grip. This will push it off your jacks.
They have done several comparisons between TC and a locker and a locker is usually better as long as you know when to disengage. TC combined with a LSD or Atb in the front is almost as good as a locker but requires less thought for rock driving where you can do damage to the internals with wind up.

[jonesfam]

This has been really interesting & I have learnt a lot.
So, a question about traction Control & Diffs.


As I understand it TC applies brake force to the wheel that is spinning fastest? How does this get drive to go to the other wheels? The way I think about it the drive should still go to that wheel so why doesn't it?


Also does TC only work across axels? Does/can it work front to back?


Yes, I'm thick.


Jonesfam
PS I know TC works 'cause my D3 uses it regularly in the mud but I don't understand it.

[Sitec]

As I understand it TC applies brake force to the wheel that is spinning fastest? How does this get drive to go to the other wheels? The way I think about it the drive should still go to that wheel so why doesn't it?.



Hi fella. You are right, traction control does indeed work by braking the spinning wheel. In doing so, it equals or makes the load greater than that of the wheel that is on good ground, which in turn helps the vehicle regain forward motion. It becomes null and void with a vehicle fitted with front and rear diff locks.

As you correctly point out, power would still be going to the spinning wheel, but as there's little resistance next to no power goes to the opposing wheel. The traction control brakes the spinning wheel so power has to go to the other wheel... As the input/driven speed does not change.. (Unless you have something that is a little underpowered using traction control).

What it also does is use power. A vehicle with traction control in soft sand will be continuously selecting wheels to apply braking force to which in turn consumes driven power. A D2 Td5 goes a lot better in soft sand with the TC switched off.

With the CDL locked, it only works across axles. With it open, it does indeed work between axles, but it does consume power..

[mikehzz]

It's stability control that gets turned off on sand. As far as I know, on any Landy with terrain response at least, you can't switch the traction control off. Stability control and traction control are most definately not the same thing but that's another topic. Traction control is quite simple, the computer picks up that one wheel on an axle is spinning faster than the other. It brakes the faster spinning wheel and the torque goes to the other wheel as a result. If a diff lock is engaged then the computer has no reason to intervene as both wheels are spinning at the same rate.

[workingonit]

Where ever you have a diff you have potential differentiation until you lock it - three diffs requires three lockers.

Locking the centre splits power evenly front and rear - however, locking the centre removes the ability to differentiate any stress built up between front and rear on hard surfaces.

In simple terms the effect of centre locking in poor traction situations goes no further than the front and rear drive shafts - the front and rear diffs will still have the capacity in low traction situations to differentiate with the inherent risk of spin and loss of forward momentum.

Locking the centre and rear still leaves potential differentiation at the front diff, but provided you have traction at the rear you will continue forward.

Locking the front aids in traction, but can affect steering. Alternative is a torque biasing unit which does not affect steering, but requires both wheels to have some continuous 'contact' with the ground. Locking also keeps wheels at the same speed - stops the wheel that has lost traction from over revving and potentially breaking an axle when the wheel hits hard ground again.

[Gary S11]

In your scenario either front wheel with the least resistance will take the drive and spin

[DiscoMick]

In your scenario either front wheel with the least resistance will take the drive and spin

And then the TC will brake the spinning wheel.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[workingonit]

Couple of years ago I had the company of a Grand Vitara. I believe the model had TC. Spinning wheels were braked, but not long enough for them to reach solid ground - consequently spinning would resume and the vehicle would roll back to its start position - where TC would take up again, a little forward, then fail, and roll back again. Some increased revving seemed to make the package eventually work - but then speed is not always desirable.

The Vitara also had the nudge bar pushed into the bonnet. The rear fibre cowling got ripped off. The vehicle was new :(

I was in my D1, unlocked, ambling through it all with hardly a thought...except when I realised the Vitara had dropped out of view...oh well, better go back and find it!

[carjunkieanon]

The OP asked 'why do people use front diff locker?'

You could be asking, 'is it worth having a front diff locker if you already have a CDL and a rear locker?'

With CDL and rear locker the only situation which you (in theory) couldn't drive out of would be both rear wheel slipping and one front wheel slipping. I suppose you could argue that this is 'fairly' unlikely (given quality tyres and careful choice of driving line) in which case it's not 'worth' having a front locker considering a) the cost of a locker that you could spend on something else, and b) the impact a locker might have on your steering.

R

[DiscoMick]

The OP asked 'why do people use front diff locker?'

You could be asking, 'is it worth having a front diff locker if you already have a CDL and a rear locker?'

With CDL and rear locker the only situation which you (in theory) couldn't drive out of would be both rear wheel slipping and one front wheel slipping. I suppose you could argue that this is 'fairly' unlikely (given quality tyres and careful choice of driving line) in which case it's not 'worth' having a front locker considering a) the cost of a locker that you could spend on something else, and b) the impact a locker might have on your steering.

R
We had a rear auto locker in the D1 and with the CDL locked and the rear locker working it made a great package.
Now we have the Defender with TC and with the CDL locked so far I can't see any advantage of fitting a locker to either front or rear, but I suppose I might change my mind with more experience. I've been out with vehicles with twin locker but no TC and we kept up with them, even the ones on bigger tyres.
So I recommend you try it all out before spending the money, just to make sure you really need it.

[MrLandy]

Good call DiscoMick. I've never needed a rear locker even in my Tdi. It's all about picking your line and being in the right gear.

With TC on Puma I certainly don't need a locker, though I haven't really done the sand test yet in the Puma...planning to remedy that over the coming month.

[weeds]

Good call DiscoMick. I've never needed a rear locker even in my Tdi. It's all about picking your line and being in the right gear.

With TC on Puma I certainly don't need a locker, though I haven't really done the sand test yet in the Puma...planning to remedy that over the coming month.


So never lost traction on a climb in a tdi with open diffs.......??

[vnx205]

The theory of how things work has been explained in some detail, so I will offer some anecdotal evidence from my own experience.

Back in the 80s, I was the proud owner of a LWB Haflinger. I was living on a farm at the time and my party trick was to drive the Haflinger up the face of various dams on the property.

The Haflinger probably had everything in its favour with just one exception. It had good weight distribution with the engine over the back axle and the weight of the driver and a terrified passenger over the front axle. It also had both front and rear diff locks.

What it didn't have was good suspension articulation when it was lightly loaded. That was probably the price that was paid for having an off-road payload about the same as its own weight and the same as a SWB Land Rover. It was much better with half a tonne on board.

Several times I experimented with different combinations to see what gave me the best chance of reaching the top of the dam wall. I tried 4WD with no diff locks, 4WD with rear diff lock, 4WD with front diff lock and various 2WD combinations.

On almost all the dams, none of which had a perfectly smooth face, the only combination that got the Haflinger to the top was 4WD with both diff locks. There is no doubt at all that in that circumstance, the front diff lock was adding a little something extra that made the difference.

I repeated the exercise often enough to be quite sure that the front diff lock was helping.

So it is possible to find a situation where a front diff lock is needed as well as a rear diff lock. That doesn't mean that everyone needs one. I didn't have one on the Series III and never felt the need for one and I don't have one on the Defender and have no plans to fit one.

[Sitec]

And going on from that, if you so a lot of serious off roading on loose surfaces, sometimes just running rear and center diffs locked can cause the rear axle to spin on larger rocks changing the direction the vehicle is traveling.. Not often a prob, unless you are running up a steep slope at 45 deg. If the fronts are both pulling evenly, the rear locker can be left out and used when needed.

That said, the last Defender I had, I ran a Detroit in the rear axle and a Tru Trac in the front. Both 'fit and forget' items, that don't need compressors, switches, or any fancy hosework. It would go anywhere I'd be stupid enough to put it, would happily lift wheels and keep going, and I wasn't flicking switches and hoping that the locker would disengage. The Detroit would occasionally make a few clunks on road, but with the Tru Trac in the front, the steering became more positive. The shorter wheelbase of the 101 was also happy with a Detroit. :)