2.2 puma 130 engine failure

[Summiitt]

Anyone know of known issues with the 2.2l puma motors, my 130 with 75k on it got a vibration, dropped a hell of a lot of oil and went into limp home, got it to the dealer and the thought was a blown crank seal, got a phone call on Friday to say the motor was stuffed. 1 month out of warranty the dealers are doing their best to get LR to come to the party with a new motor, regardless of this, I think this is the last straw with land rovers as my preferred choice of work Utes.. 75k and already a new transfer case, axles, clutch and now possibly a motor isn't good enough when I rely on this vehicle to earn a quid.

[LR V8]

It's never nice when something like that happens. Was yours included in the oil pump recall ?

Pete

[weeds]

That's a bad run........hope Land Rover show some good will...

[Summiitt]

Yep, oil pump has been done only 4k ago , serviced by LR every 12000k.. I have 2 ideas, the oil pump has failed or its over fuelled and filled the sump with diesel.
The oil light has been the same 3-5 second delay in going out since before the oil pump recall.

[cafe latte]

Most transfer faults are caused by going off road without the diff lock in. Usually covered under warranty. Problem is if diff is not locked even in mild conditions and one axle spins SNAP transfer is stuffed. You can get away with it for a while but eventually it will let go.
When you say axles what was the problem? Axle flanges are a common and known problem and an easy fix.
Re the engine problem it sounds unusual fingers crossed LR come to the party.
Chris

[Scouse]

With only 75000km & a FSH with LR, it's just a matter of LR & the dealer getting the paperwork side of the job sorted out before the motor replacement will be authorised.

[n plus one]

Bugger, I've seen a couple of 2.2s with blown crank seals (on the net) seems like it might be a qc issue so you should have a reasonably solid case with LR given the mileage and fsh.

Best of luck. I'll miss seeing your trucks around Canberra if you go to a different marque!

[Beery]

Disappointing to hear your bad run Summiitt.
I had the rear crank seal replaced under warranty recently. It was leaking slowly. They said the old one looked like it was damaged during the engine assembly. Maybe its a recurring problem at the Ford engine plant.

[manofaus]

Dont forget you could always try your insurance if LR dont come to the party.

[Wicks89]

Geez man that sucks! It's so frustrating with these sort of things because the defender design (solid axles and coils) has so much promise but just gets let down by a weak engine and driveline combo.
They talk about emissions regs but somehow Toyota can build a 4.5l v8 diesel?
I dunno for your work I'd go with some sort of Isuzu truck if I could. But I'm guessing there's a reason you haven't already.

[1nando]

What is it with people thinking the 2.2 is not big enough to be in the puma????

Ive said it a million times:

I am the GM at a building supplies company that also provides transport and logistic solutions both to site and to other building yards. All our 3 and 5 ton tippers are 4 cylinder diesel turbo. Most people on this site would claim that they are all under powered bla bla bla.......they carry max payload daily, all day everyday all year round, they have more than 250,000kms on the clock and are going strong. Our bogeys are 6 cylinder diesel turbo and our truck and dogs are 6 cylinder diesel turbo also (truck size engines).....you see the idea is to have an engine with a long bore and stroke that is happy to chug along all day (that is over simplified). Massive power and torque equals massive mechanical bills....the trick is to have an engine strong enough to pull max pay load reliabily without destroying components!

The v8 in the crusier is a waste of money, inefficient , waste of diesel and a heavy boat anchor....ford transits clock just as many if not more kms than v8 cruisers without any drama world wide.........so whats wrong with the 2.2???

My only complaint is it is heavily down tuned from factory. Nothing a intercooler and remap cant fix. My only advice is to delete the egr, it is poison for any engine! In fact ive had truck reps tell me (under the table) that if a truck engine had a life expectancy of 750,000kms as a example that the egr can take as much as 30% away from that life expectancy.

Ive had issues with my puma, alot more than most and too many to list, but i am now adamant all are sorted and its thanks to the relationship i built with my dealer. These vehicles are hand assembled, some get lucky others do not. But if it gets sorted its a great truck!

Other than the egr the axles are the only bad thing on this vehicle, hd flanges sorts this


My 2 cents

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[Summiitt]

Being in the earthmoving and forestry industry, I know of as many people with V8 cruisers with issues as any other vehicle, the defender fits my bill 100% aside from it being underpowered, but I can handle that if I get the reliability and longevity out of the Utes that I pay for and expect.. 1.3million km between the other 3 defenders I run is what I am use to. It's the manufacturing process and a lack of quality control that drives me nuts, it's this lack of detail that the Japanese and euro manufacturers have got nailed.
I've considered other options including 4wd trucks, cruisers, F350 etc but the only one that can do what the defender does is the cruiser, but with a $35k premium, the FTrucks won't get up the firetrails I work on, nor will the Isuzu 4WD trucks, and forget the run of the mill Utes, I need 3.5t towing and a 1ton+ payload.

[1nando]

I feel sorry for you, honestly mate all i can recommend is trying to work with your dealer to try and get LR to pay for it.

If LR is unwilling to help i would look at the lemon laws, although this is clutching at straws. I would put a report together of all your issues since bought and argue that you bought a dud. Like i mentioned this would be difficult but could potentially get LR to come to the party.

I wish you good luck

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[Vern]

What is it with people thinking the 2.2 is not big enough to be in the puma????

Ive said it a million times:

I am the GM at a building supplies company that also provides transport and logistic solutions both to site and to other building yards. All our 3 and 5 ton tippers are 4 cylinder diesel turbo. Most people on this site would claim that they are all under powered bla bla bla.......they carry max payload daily, all day everyday all year round, they have more than 250,000kms on the clock and are going strong. Our bogeys are 6 cylinder diesel turbo and our truck and dogs are 6 cylinder diesel turbo also (truck size engines).....you see the idea is to have an engine with a long bore and stroke that is happy to chug along all day (that is over simplified). Massive power and torque equals massive mechanical bills....the trick is to have an engine strong enough to pull max pay load reliabily without destroying components!

The v8 in the crusier is a waste of money, inefficient , waste of diesel and a heavy boat anchor....ford transits clock just as many if not more kms than v8 cruisers without any drama world wide.........so whats wrong with the 2.2???

My only complaint is it is heavily down tuned from factory. Nothing a intercooler and remap cant fix. My only advice is to delete the egr, it is poison for any engine! In fact ive had truck reps tell me (under the table) that if a truck engine had a life expectancy of 750,000kms as a example that the egr can take as much as 30% away from that life expectancy.

Ive had issues with my puma, alot more than most and too many to list, but i am now adamant all are sorted and its thanks to the relationship i built with my dealer. These vehicles are hand assembled, some get lucky others do not. But if it gets sorted its a great truck!

Other than the egr the axles are the only bad thing on this vehicle, hd flanges sorts this


My 2 cents

Sent from my SM-G925I using AULRO mobile appits not how many cylinders it has, its the size of the engine! 2.2L 4cyl vs a 3.9L 4cyl. I'd pick the 3.9L anyday:)

[Wicks89]

1. Agree with Vern, small engines work harder for more power. I have a td5 and it has been excellent, just maintenance items despite some fairly rough treatment (including a drowning). So look, the ford and land rover engines obviously do the job, and let it be known that Im not so e toyota fan, but it seems like land rover is going backwards.

Yeah the 2.2 is good to go, sure, but wouldnt you rather the 3.2 from the ranger?

2. Defender set up is excellent, and i think the best for a ute off road. Can take big loads and go rough places. Ive taken perenties to some far out places FULL of gear and theyve never let me down. But thats a farm implement by comparison.

Maybe try an exarmy mog? Now THOSE will go anywhere!

[justinc]

Sorry to hear about this problem but i have to agree the quality control is certainly lacking in the newer models. I 5hink you have answered your own question they are the best vehicle for the job and once the engine problem is sorted it will be business as usual. Asking any other vehicle to do what a defender 130 will do in the rough stuff carrying a load is a waste of breath.

Take a deep breath and it'll pass...☺

Jc

[PAT303]

Geez man that sucks! It's so frustrating with these sort of things because the defender design (solid axles and coils) has so much promise but just gets let down by a weak engine and driveline combo.
They talk about emissions regs but somehow Toyota can build a 4.5l v8 diesel?
I dunno for your work I'd go with some sort of Isuzu truck if I could. But I'm guessing there's a reason you haven't already.

Absolutely,and Toyota has never had driveline issue's ever ;). Pat

[jimr1]

Being in the earthmoving and forestry industry, I know of as many people with V8 cruisers with issues as any other vehicle, the defender fits my bill 100% aside from it being underpowered, but I can handle that if I get the reliability and longevity out of the Utes that I pay for and expect.. 1.3million km between the other 3 defenders I run is what I am use to. It's the manufacturing process and a lack of quality control that drives me nuts, it's this lack of detail that the Japanese and euro manufacturers have got nailed.
I've considered other options including 4wd trucks, cruisers, F350 etc but the only one that can do what the defender does is the cruiser, but with a $35k premium, the FTrucks won't get up the firetrails I work on, nor will the Isuzu 4WD trucks, and forget the run of the mill Utes, I need 3.5t towing and a 1ton+ payload.
I can understand you disappointment , and frustration . Over the years you have been a strong supporter to the brand . I can remember you tying to get the air out of a dt5 . When I read this , I'm thinking I have a new 2.2 will I have similar problems down the track ? Land Rover are very slow telling us about the replacement Defender . That's doesn't help you , So I hope you can get your motor replaced by Land Rover . Please keep us informed how you go !!.. Jim

[MrLandy]

1.3 million km between 3 Defenders is great. Sounds like they work hard. One has let you down but it's inevitable some day one will let you down. Defenders are spiritual beasts. They don't want to let you down but just like people sometimes they do but you forgive them because most of the time they don't. Keep working them hard. They like it.

[1nando]

Vern:

But if you take a 3 tonner into consideration with a total GVM of 5.5 ton and compare it to a 110 with a GVM of 3.125 ton (i thinks its in and around that) then 2.2 looks around being on the money.......

The v8 cruisers engine is twice the size of the 300 series hino, literally. Could it pull what the little 3 tonnner does? Day in and day out all year round, doubt it.

The 3.2 is a unproven engine, time will tell if it lasts. The 2.2 transit engine has done the milage


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[clive22]

Hi

My Puma 2.2 failed also in a 130 @50,000kms Turned out in the end, that it was a split oil cooler. Still needed a new hoses, heater pipes, oil cooler, expansion bottle, etc. and flush everythin. Oil ran through cooling system.

Point is though mine too was a few weeks out a warranty. Mine was serviced independent of the dealer at bigger name workshop. Had fully stamped logbook every 5000kms.
I was also not the original owner, 2nd.

Land rover paid for all parts and I paid for labor. At full retail was over 2ks worth of parts and 13 hours labour. I was happy with this deal

I would lean on them hard but politely I think they are responsive and sensitive about the back end of ownership, provided the vehicle has been treated well.

The vehicles engine has to have a reasonable life span and 3 years is not that at all, 10 years at a min you'd reckon.

Clive

[AndyG]

Disappointing to hear your bad run Summiitt.
I had the rear crank seal replaced under warranty recently. It was leaking slowly. They said the old one looked like it was damaged during the engine assembly. Maybe its a recurring problem at the Ford engine plant.

I had rear main seal replaced at 10,000 they said bad assembly at factory

[Summiitt]

Went and saw the lads in the workshop today, turns out no 1 piston is cracked, so bad it wouldn't show any reading on a compression test, motor is R.S. Will wait and see what LRs answer is..

[Wicks89]

Went and saw the lads in the workshop today, turns out no 1 piston is cracked, so bad it wouldn't show any reading on a compression test, motor is R.S. Will wait and see what LRs answer is..

Cracked piston? What causes that? Or is it basically totally random?

[1nando]

Usually a fuel issue......excess heat more than likely. How and why is a different story.


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[PAT303]

Knocking-detonation is a common cause of cracked pistons,faulty injectors ala Denso causes melted ones. Pat

[grinna1965]

hi summiitt my 2.2 blew at 28000km after 20000km of hard towing
cracked number 4 piston dealer didnt want anything to do with it so we repaired at our work shop.got injectors tested by two reputable diesel shops both said as new.if you google duratorq cracked piston you will find an abundance of them there.in the uk ford has owned up to the problem but only adress it as it happens.ford australia or land rover will not recognise the problem.

[1nando]

hi summiitt my 2.2 blew at 28000km after 20000km of hard towing
cracked number 4 piston dealer didnt want anything to do with it so we repaired at our work shop.got injectors tested by two reputable diesel shops both said as new.if you google duratorq cracked piston you will find an abundance of them there.in the uk ford has owned up to the problem but only adress it as it happens.ford australia or land rover will not recognise the problem.

Hi Grinna,

what is the root cause if ford has owned up to it???

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[grinna1965]

i should have been a little clearer.ford havnt owned up to the problem they just acknoledge it but dont advertise it ass an issue.as for what i know & have reaserched they dont fix the problem they just supply new engines dirt cheap

[1nando]

i should have been a little clearer.ford havnt owned up to the problem they just acknoledge it but dont advertise it ass an issue.as for what i know & have reaserched they dont fix the problem they just supply new engines dirt cheap

Just did some quick reading and it seems that the issue is not common but has happened to a few transit vans and is rare in the puma. As i thought it has happened to some of these transits due to a fueling issue and an oil pump issue.

The oil pump in the 2.2 pumas has been addressed, mine was replaced under warranty. The mapping on a transit is completely different to the puma......it has been said that the tranist map has a few hot spots which has been the cause of the pistons letting go.

My conclusion is that summits engine has more than likely let go due to a injector issue causing a fuel issue or that the oil pump has potentially failed. Lack of fuel and too much fuel will destroy pistons, there needs to be middle ground in the fuel map.

Either way im sure Sunmit will let us know when he finds out.

Keep in mind that engine failures in general are common to a lot of vehicles......parts are bound to fail here and there and its the law of statistics; the more of something there is out there the more likely you are to have a few small failures...

Remeber that there are a lot of tranist 2.2s that have seen over 500,000kms world wide and even more, so a few failures is no reason to wave the flag and rubbish an engine.

My 2 cents

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[grinna1965]

not trying to scare people,just make them aware,i love my defender but know of four defenders with cracked pistons & three rangers & thats only come to my attention from my mishap so i am sure if i went looking i would find moore

[4wheeler]

Caught up with a friend recently who drives a Ford Transit. I also have one as a work vehicle. It had 120,000km on it and is a few years old. Asked him how his Transit had been running. He said he had just got it back after an engine replacement due to a blown engine due to piston cracking!

My Transit has 150,000 Km on it and has just recently developed a heavy knock at idle which is intermittent. Generally it runs as smooth as. I suspect an injector problem or it could be fuel related. I'll fill at a different station next fill just in case as for 99% of its running life it has been filled at 1 fuel station only so if they got a bad batch, that might cause the problem. Time will tell.

Also my 110 Defender has a slow rear main seal leak and the 3.2 Mazda BT 50 I owned had a similar main seal leak. My Transit is dry after 150,000km.

I suppose that everything is so critical in modern engines that if something starts to go wrong it can cause major problems.

[spudfan]

I had an engine change in a 6 year old 2.4 Puma three years out of warranty. Land Rover picked up the vast majority of the cost. Dealer backed me, full service history etc. Took less than a month from issue being reported to the dealer and the vehicle with the replacement engine being back on the road. This was a different issue to yours, mine was the PCJ issue but the fact that Land Rover supplied a new engine and paid for the majority of the labour costs three years out of warranty should auger well for you. Your service manager should emphasise that you stick to all the recommended service schedules etc. One of my services was done at home. It was engine oil and filter, diesel filter and air filter. I had to show evidence that the correct oil was used for the service. I supplied copies of the receipt for the oil and filters and as everything met the required standards the service manager was able to fight my case. You should have no trouble getting Land Rover to replace the engine.

[dullbird]

I had my engine replaced in the 2.4 too i think was something to do with the oil not getting to engine on initial start up cant remember now causing knock
I hope my 2.2 doesn't blow up because that would be really unlucky

[spudfan]

I had my engine replaced in the 2.4 too i think was something to do with the oil not getting to engine on initial start up cant remember now causing knock
I hope my 2.2 doesn't blow up because that would be really unlucky

Yes that was the problem. The point I was making is that Land Rover should have no difficulty coming to the table with this problem considering mine was dealt with three years after the warranty ran out.

[1nando]

Any news Summit?

2.2 110 limited edition, Davis remap, intercooler, exhaust, terrafirma 30mm wheel spacers, snorkel, first four bb, apt tree sliders, apt diff guards, terrafirma rear bumprettes, mantec rear wheel carrier, Uniden UHF, hema HN7, roof rack, custom made rear draws, dual battery setup, hella ralye 4000 xenon lights, Engel fridge setup, puresine invertor.......coming soon upgraded suspension, diff locks and 33s, nearly finished......

[Summiitt]

Nope, no news.. There are 9 long engines in stock in Australia, so that's a plus, no doubt paperwork is sitting up on some tech guys desk in LR H.Q. To say yes we will pay in full or broker a deal with customer.. This ute needs to be on the road, our bushfire preparation work is in full swing and I'm down a ute, not a happy Land Rover customer at the moment..

[Summiitt]

Finally got some good news yesterday, Land Rover Australia have approved a complete short motor replacement on the 130, with new injectors. They have agreed to cover all costs.. A good outcome despite it taking 5 weeks to make a decision, now I will have to see how long till the ute is on the road and back at work..

[1nando]

LR customer service has to be one of the best going around.

[LoveB]

tim, swing marky and the boys a beer I'm sure they'll speed up :p

[1nando]

Finally got some good news yesterday, Land Rover Australia have approved a complete short motor replacement on the 130, with new injectors. They have agreed to cover all costs.. A good outcome despite it taking 5 weeks to make a decision, now I will have to see how long till the ute is on the road and back at work..

Will you still be selling your 130 ute or keeping it now????

[Summiitt]

I've got to say, Mark and the boys at Lennock land rover are bloody terrific, they have really pushed as hard as they can to get some answers..
I'll hold onto the ute till it hits 100,000km to see if it proves itself and the bugs are ironed out..if I have no dramas it will be kept in the fleet for good

[1nando]

I dare say if it was a toyota that they would have not covered anything. I cant make that statement with 100% accuracy but id be bloody surprised if they did..
..
.

Just saying

[PAT303]

How many D4D or ZD30 owners have had their motors replaced in similar situations?,trying hard to find one. Pat

[scarry]

I dare say if it was a toyota that they would have not covered anything. I cant make that statement with 100% accuracy but id be bloody surprised if they did..
..
.

Just saying

I would say you are at least 99% accurate.

Don't ask me how i know.....

I do run a fleet of Tojo vans bought new and serviced by the dealer……..;)

They just don't want to know you,even during warranty:(

I have found LR to be the complete opposite,even if you get the vehicle serviced by an Indie:)

[1nando]

I have owned a few new vehicle's in my time.......none of them had the service that LR has..
Ive had my fair share of issues and LR has sorted all out. Only issue i had was when they kept throwing rear diffs at my 110. I eventually had to put my foot down and ask for a reconditioned unit, no problems since.
I will buy another just becuase of the service!

[ATH]

I've just had a bit of bungling service from the stealer but they were nice and apologetic about it and small prob will be fixed I know. Younger bro says the same thing.... thought he'd try one of the indies recommended on here for a prob with his RRS Autobio.
Walked in the office to be confronted by a dirty looking yob who just said "waddya want?" Then when bro explained the idiot then said to the other scruffy oik "You fix it, you reckon you know every ****** thing" and walked off! So did younger bro.
Nice way to treat an obviously wealthy potential customer. :(
So back to the stealer. He knows he'll probably be ripped off if it's not a warranty prob, but the problem will be fixed and they'll be nice about it with a clean office and staffed with people with MANNERS! :D
Our boy on the other hand had probs with his new 200 series thing and getting Tojo to do anything took action through Consumer Affairs and about 3 years.
Eventually they modified the engine and it now longer uses 3 ltrs of oil to get to Exmouth towing a large boat and they replaced the "hi-tech" transmission with one that actually worked.
Pity they took 3 months to do it but they did loan him a Pajero while they fiddled with it.
I was loudly shouted down and called a troll for daring to post that on another forum.:D
AlanH.

[LoveB]

My 110 now has 94,747 in just under three years. no bangs yet. although I do think I'm getting a bit of a funny driveline noise

[Summiitt]

Finally got my 130 back on the road with the new motor, the guys at Lennock land rover have been great..hopefully now with new axles, transfer case, chassis and now a brand new motor, I'm looking forward to driving the bloody thing and it earning it's keep, interestingly the first fill I got 570km till the light came on, has always been at about 510-530km with the old motor, so maybe the injectors were on the way out for a while.

[TimNZ]

That's a great outcome, always a worry until the vehicle is back in your possession though. If it makes you, (or anyone), feel better one of my customers has been without his LC200 for 7 weeks now, and Toyota want it for another 4 weeks till parts arrive.... for a wheel bearing problem. All under warranty, no loan car.

Hope the car does you right now.

Cheers,

Tim

[MrLandy]

Great news Summitt, well done.

Sounds like Toyota may be making similar lack of customer service/design fault mistakes to those that Land Rover made in the 80's? Great that LRA look to be
resurrecting that reputation now. Interesting how tables turn. The potential for LRA, if the new Defender is good, is huge.

[jackdef90]

Finally got my 130 back on the road with the new motor, the guys at Lennock land rover have been great..hopefully now with new axles, transfer case, chassis and now a brand new motor, I'm looking forward to driving the bloody thing and it earning it's keep, interestingly the first fill I got 570km till the light came on, has always been at about 510-530km with the old motor, so maybe the injectors were on the way out for a while.

After the problems you've just had, id be scared running the tank down to empty anymore unless you have to.

[Beery]

Finally got my 130 back on the road with the new motor, the guys at Lennock land rover have been great..hopefully now with new axles, transfer case, chassis and now a brand new motor, I'm looking forward to driving the bloody thing and it earning it's keep, interestingly the first fill I got 570km till the light came on, has always been at about 510-530km with the old motor, so maybe the injectors were on the way out for a while.

570km is good for a 130, especially a brand new motor. Hopefully you've got a good'n.

Time to disable the EGR valve while its still clean inside.

[Summiitt]

Is disabling the EGR the go? I've got mixed feelings on the EGR as a couple of my western stars are EGRs and have been great yet heard of others that have been crap, is this the same for the rovers?? As for running the fuel low in the tank, I've got little option as the capacity is pathetic and that of a corolla, not sure what your reasons for running the tank low is? I've got no issues running down till the light comes on.. If you've got fuel, use it..

[PAT303]

People don't like running their tanks low because it picks up the gunk at the bottom,they don't seem to realise the tank feeds from the bottom regardless of how much fuel is in it,I run mine to empty. Pat

[1nando]

Is disabling the EGR the go? I've got mixed feelings on the EGR as a couple of my western stars are EGRs and have been great yet heard of others that have been crap, is this the same for the rovers?? As for running the fuel low in the tank, I've got little option as the capacity is pathetic and that of a corolla, not sure what your reasons for running the tank low is? I've got no issues running down till the light comes on.. If you've got fuel, use it..

One of the first things i did was to get a decat, intercooler, egr blanked and switched off and a remap. Went from an average 580kms per tank to around 610kms per tank. The benefit of all this is around 150hp and 450nm of torque. Basically i let the engine breath better and reap the rewards. My Mack truck rep told me a long time ago that egrs are one of the worst things ever introduced for engine reliability and longevity

Ps i have 110 2.2. Constantly carrying around 250-300kg

[Beery]

People don't like running their tanks low because it picks up the gunk at the bottom,they don't seem to realise the tank feeds from the bottom regardless of how much fuel is in it,I run mine to empty. Pat

Exactly. A lot of people don't seem to understand this. Any crap and water in the fuel gets sucked out first at the bottom of the tank, regardless of fuel level.

[MrLandy]

Hilarious that anyone thinks fuel is drawn from the top of the tank!

[Beery]

Is disabling the EGR the go? I've got mixed feelings on the EGR as a couple of my western stars are EGRs and have been great yet heard of others that have been crap, is this the same for the rovers??

Well its probably not going to be as big a problem on your trucks and rovers, that, as commercial/work vehicles spend a bigger part of their engine hours at proper temperature and being worked with a decent load. They'll naturally be longer lasting, cleaner running engines because of it.
But feeding abrasive, sooty, oxygen depleted gas into an expensive engine just doesn't make sense.

[jackdef90]

Exactly. A lot of people don't seem to understand this. Any crap and water in the fuel gets sucked out first at the bottom of the tank, regardless of fuel level.

When the tank is Lower you have more free surface effect which stirs up debris that may be stuck in the bottom of the tank, the other thing is you'll get more condensate build up this is pretty minor if you've got a fuel cooler and not really an issue with a car fuel tank.
Regardless of the suction being at the bottom, it's still bad practice to run a diesel tank down to the low level alarm unless you have to. I had an ex mine site ford courier years ago and I stuffed the fuel pump from doing it due to all the Pilbara red dust that made its way into the tank.

[jackdef90]

Hilarious that anyone thinks fuel is drawn from the top of the tank!

Nobody in this thread ever thought that, I take my mechanical knowledge from working in ship engine rooms, where fuel contamination is a big issue, where does all your vast knowledge come from?

[Tote]

With regards to EGR my disco did 270,000 KM with never a problem with the EGR system. Most of the people who relate problems such as stuck EGR valves etc seem to be doing mostly town running without an opportunity for the engine to get up to operating temperature and to clear the soot buildup.

Engineering wise the decision to route exhaust gas back into the engine is not driven by anything other than pollution reduction, and its a pretty big tradeoff as well. NOx is produced due to the high combustion temperatures in a diesel engine. By diverting cooled exhaust gas back into the inlet manifold the combustion temperatures are reduced and NOx emissions are reduced. The tradeoff, however is that lower combustion temperatures mean less efficient combustion resulting in more soot which is conveniently filtered by a DPF where fitted.

After doing some reading I'm more convinced that even if it functions correctly Diesel EGR does not have many benefits.

Regards,
Tote

[MrLandy]

Nobody in this thread ever thought that, I take my mechanical knowledge from working in ship engine rooms, where fuel contamination is a big issue, where does all your vast knowledge come from?

I didn't say they did jack. Gravity feed is pretty basic stuff.

[jackdef90]

Its not gravity fed, that's what your in tank or non in tank fuel pump does, if it was gravity fed you would need head pressure for your fuel system to work.

[MrLandy]

Its not gravity fed, that's what your in tank or non in tank fuel pump does, if it was gravity fed you would need head pressure for your fuel system to work.

The fuel is under gravity therefore the fuel pick up is at the bottom of the tank. Therefore the fuel pickup is gravity fed. The engine isn't, correct. Gravity is the reason a pump is required.

[MrLandy]

No probs jack, have a great day.

[macro]

Hi, just experienced the same issue ( cracked piston ) on my 130 2.2lt at just over 105000km. Just wondering if this is still happening to any other 2.2s, as the threads are all 2015/16. Dealer is suggesting a replacement engine, as parts to repair are so expensive for Land Rover! Mine is a 2012, used 80% on long country driving, 20% on farm. The Td5 and Tdi s that I have run, have all done to the 200kms, so not too happy with this one. Have been a LR owner since 1977 and this one is No. 13 for me......

[Summiitt]

Keep pushing for a replacement engine, mine went at about 75k, LR initially blamed water in the diesel, but it was tested and found no water trace..unfortunatley there is history of these 2.2 engines in other vehicles cracking pistons. In the end LR were very good and replaced the engine and covered labour..mine now has 148k on it and hasn't missed a beat.

[macro]

Thanks Summiitt, I read your story last night and pleased to see no more problems for you. Ive had no other mechanical issues with the 130 and I must admit, it is the best engine that I have had in one. (tdi 300 / Td5 and now 2.2) but a bit disconcerting when it just suddenly goes wrong! No murmurs of any LR help or responsibility yet though.....

[Scouse]

When the dealer submits the repair details to JLR, make sure they mention your LR history too. Multiple purchases/future purchases can make all the difference.

[macro]

Thanks, will do. interesting to see what happens.....

[martnH]

Any tail tale sign for 2.2 engine failure?...
Cheers

[DazzaTD5]

Anyone know of known issues with the 2.2l puma motors, my 130 with 75k on it got a vibration, dropped a hell of a lot of oil and went into limp home, got it to the dealer and the thought was a blown crank seal, got a phone call on Friday to say the motor was stuffed. 1 month out of warranty the dealers are doing their best to get LR to come to the party with a new motor, regardless of this, I think this is the last straw with land rovers as my preferred choice of work Utes.. 75k and already a new transfer case, axles, clutch and now possibly a motor isn't good enough when I rely on this vehicle to earn a quid.

Keep in mind, regardless of what the dealership or Land Rover say, having a major component (an engine) fail 1 month out of warranty means they are still required to cover the repair as a warranty item. This is Australian consumer law and does not just apply to TVs and washing machines. This has been made very clear by the ACCC.

You obviously approach the dealer in a good positive manner, failing that then Jaguar Land Rover.... after that you point out the ACCC has made it clear that consumer law covers everything we purchase which includes a new motor vehicle.

Dont think for a minute they are doing you some sort of good will if they come to the party, its not good will its the law.
A failure of an engine just out of warranty is not considered fair and reasonable by any mentally competent person.

Regards
Daz

[Summiitt]

Any tail tale sign for 2.2 engine failure?...
Cheers
I had zero warning with the engine failure.. it came out of the blue..cant believe it happened 10min from the dealer given some of the places I take that ute for work..

[big harold]

I had zero warning with the engine failure.. it came out of the blue..cant believe it happened 10min from the dealer given some of the places I take that ute for work..
Any update?
My 2012 110 Defende has just cracked #2 piston.
Zero warning.
Tested injector and found to be streaming instead of spraying.
Has anybody rebuilt a 2.2?
Kits from UK $1500.

[big harold]

Just to add 106000km

[justinc]

Denso need to be partly responsible for these kinds of failures. Its not a solely LR issue😠😠

[MLD]

Any update?
My 2012 110 Defende has just cracked #2 piston.
Zero warning.
Tested injector and found to be streaming instead of spraying.
Has anybody rebuilt a 2.2?
Kits from UK $1500.

Transit Automotive in Victoria will sell you a new long block. AFAIK the 2.2 was $4500 for the block plus about $1000 in labour to do a roll in drive out transplant. The 2.4 was $6k + $1k. Transit Auto told me that injector failure was common problem. I cracked 2 pistons in a Puma 2.4. I didn't test the injectors because i went a different route. While it should be unnecessary I've come to the conclusion that testing the injectors around 100,000kms should be on the maintentance list.

[martnH]

Okay $6k for replacing an engine is not too bad,
Considering JLR wants $3.5K to replace the alarm module on my MY13...

[MLD]

Okay $6k for replacing an engine is not too bad,
Considering JLR wants $3.5K to replace the alarm module on my MY13...

If your failure was injector related budget about $100 each to test and $400 per injector.

for $3.5k you can feed a Rottweiler for a long time and he doubles as a companion. The alarm module can only offer 1 of those.

If you want a rapist story, my S-Tronic gearbox (audi) is throwing a fault. $300 for the part (speed sensor) but it is a gearbox out and full strip down to replace the part. No change from $4,000 at an Indi. Audi would be closer to $8k. The rub - Audi rebuilt the gearbox 30,000 kms ago and replaced all the sensors bar the speed sensor. Yes, i'm going to hit up Audi to cover the cost.

[Robmacca]

If your failure was injector related budget about $100 each to test and $400 per injector.


$400/injector sounds like a great price... I was told at least double that from a local LR mechanic shop.....

btw: Is there any difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 injectors(are the injectors the same?) Also, is there any BIG price difference between the 2?

[MLD]

$400/injector sounds like a great price... I was told at least double that from a local LR mechanic shop.....

btw: Is there any difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 injectors(are the injectors the same?) Also, is there any BIG price difference between the 2?

the injector price was what i was quoted by Transit Automotive when i made an enquiry to replace my 2.4, that was 18 months ago. I have no information if there is a difference between the injectors for the 2 engines. Call Transit Automotive and ask him, he is approachable and generally offers a little extra info, for example i called about replacement turbo (mine is whining suggesting a bearing) and he said to drop the sump and clean the oil pick up line. While it may be obvious to a mechanic, for us punters having that info gives us a fighting chance to ask the right questions of your own mechanic.

[big harold]

Hi, just experienced the same issue ( cracked piston ) on my 130 2.2lt at just over 105000km. Just wondering if this is still happening to any other 2.2s, as the threads are all 2015/16. Dealer is suggesting a replacement engine, as parts to repair are so expensive for Land Rover! Mine is a 2012, used 80% on long country driving, 20% on farm. The Td5 and Tdi s that I have run, have all done to the 200kms, so not too happy with this one. Have been a LR owner since 1977 and this one is No. 13 for me......
Macro you have PM

[Tote]

So what's the way to avoid this problem? would an EGT meter detect the extra fuel going into the motor or is it a matter of replacing the injectors as a preventative measure?

Regards,
Tote

[justinc]

So what's the way to avoid this problem? would an EGT meter detect the extra fuel going into the motor or is it a matter of replacing the injectors as a preventative measure?

Regards,
Tote

Having seen and talked to owners there was no warning. Literally rattle rattle bang. About 8 seconds from 'whats that sound?' To stopping on the side of the road....😣😣

[Tote]

Bugger

Regards,
Tote

[martnH]

So probabaly a defect in the block?

[big harold]

So probabaly a defect in the block?No I would say defective pistons

[justinc]

Injector failure will melt even the best pistons....

[martnH]

Is there a way for home gamer like me to test or replace injectors?

I will have nanacom bas2 and JLR v145

Cheers
Martin

[PAT303]

Having seen and talked to owners there was no warning. Literally rattle rattle bang. About 8 seconds from 'whats that sound?' To stopping on the side of the road....😣😣

The TDCi's have the same rubbish denso injectors that D4D's have,with the same catastrophic results. Pat

[Zeros]

The TDCi's have the same rubbish denso injectors that D4D's have,with the same catastrophic results. Pat

As reliable as a Toyota then.😳 ...but seriously, that’s not good. ...how common are injector failures in 2.2 Tdci’s?

[Marty90]

As reliable as a Toyota then.[emoji15] ...but seriously, that’s not good. ...how common are injector failures in 2.2 Tdci’s?If the problem can be attributed to injector failure, can we just replace the injectors and be done with it. For about $400/injector it's cheap insurance.

[rick130]

Was it an injector or MAF issue with the older Nissan ZD30's?

There was no warning with them either, just a plume of smoke and bang.

I'm looking back at the old Tdi much more fondly now!! [emoji23]

[justinc]

Was it an injector or MAF issue with the older Nissan ZD30's?

There was no warning with them either, just a plume of smoke and bang.

I'm looking back at the old Tdi much more fondly now!! [emoji23]

Rick they had a few issies with mafs and poor fuelling controls. I pyroed one at 860deg UPSTREAM once. No load up a moderate hill....😣

[PAT303]

If the problem can be attributed to injector failure, can we just replace the injectors and be done with it. For about $400/injector it's cheap insurance.

Won't work,a mate of mine did Toybota warranty work in the Goldfields,he said the injectors were out of spec straight from Denso. Look up the numerous Prado/Hilux forums,heaps of info their. Pat

[Marty90]

Won't work,a mate of mine did Toybota warranty work in the Goldfields,he said the injectors were out of spec straight from Denso. Look up the numerous Prado/Hilux forums,heaps of info their. PatNo aftermarket injectors available?

[PAT303]

No aftermarket injectors available?

Better off getting the originals re worked. Denso are just rubbish,end of story. Pat

[Zeros]

Better off getting the originals re worked. Denso are just rubbish,end of story. Pat

I found this article online interesting...seems balanced despite the sales pitch: Hilux Injectors and Rattles - Common Rail Diesel - Baileys Diesel Grp (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/on-highway/hilux-injectors-and-rattles-in-the-common-rail-engine/)

Also found this: CRD Fuel Enhancer for Common Rail Engines - Cost Effective Maintenance (https://costeffective.com.au/product/crd-fuel-enhancer-for-common-rail-engines/) I’m always wary of an ‘additive fix’ but would be really interested to hear the thoughts of you guys as mechanics/experts. Should we all be adding this to our fuel? As well as installing a second fuel filter?

[Zeros]

...also interested to know, would driving style affect injector life at all? Is grandpa style putting around keeping it around 2000rpm vs drive it like you stole it 3500rpm+ ?

What is the consensus on this in general? (and given no tacho redline on Defenders, what is the redline for a 2.2 Tdci?)

[cafe latte]

Really hope this is not going to become a common issue..
Chris

[martnH]

Better off getting the originals re worked. Denso are just rubbish,end of story. PatBut.but..
It seems all the injectors are made by Denso?

[afb]

Not as expensive as I thought
[URL] https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/[\URL]

[martnH]

Not as expensive as I thought
[URL] https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/[\URL]But these are also Denso injectors?

[Zeros]

Not as expensive as I thought
[URL] https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/[\URL]

Looks like they have Denso at $495 - 12 month / 10k warranty https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/cr-injector-ford-landrover/
or their own brand at $349 - 3 year / 50k warranty Blueprinted Injector to suit Ford transit / Landrover Defender 2.4L - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/)

[martnH]

Looks like they have Denso at $495 - 12 month / 10k warranty Denso Injector to suit Ford Transit / Land Rover 2.2L & 2.4L - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/cr-injector-ford-landrover/)
or their own brand at $349 - 3 year / 50k warranty Blueprinted Injector to suit Ford transit / Landrover Defender 2.4L - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/)Their own brand blueprint is also Denso?
Correct me if I am wrong

[Zeros]

Their own brand blueprint is also Denso?
Correct me if I am wrong

Not sure. It doesn’t say Denso.

[Arch]

Looks like they have Denso at $495 - 12 month / 10k warranty Denso Injector to suit Ford Transit / Land Rover 2.2L & 2.4L - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/cr-injector-ford-landrover/)
or their own brand at $349 - 3 year / 50k warranty Blueprinted Injector to suit Ford transit / Landrover Defender 2.4L - Baileys Diesel Group (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/shop/blueprinted-injector-suit-ford-transit-landrover-defender-2-4l/)

Sorry about this being my first post but I been lurking on the forum for a couple of years now. I'm a Toyota owner and mechanic looking to eventually make to leap to a Defender... eventually

Long story short - avoid remanufactured injectors at all costs. Instead get genuine and new Denso products - they aren't that expensive these days. There is plenty of experience on this topic from the Hilux, Prado and Cruise D4D engines.

Regards
Arch

[PAT303]

But.but..
It seems all the injectors are made by Denso?

That's right,and check all the engines from every brand that have melted/holed piston's and what injectors do they have?.Look at Land Rover,what engines are failing,not the Bosch injected ones,same for Mazda as an example,the Siemens injected engines never had issue's,they do now they are injected by Denso.

[PAT303]

Their own brand blueprint is also Denso?
Correct me if I am wrong

They are reconditioned,read my earlier post,the Denso injectors come from the factory out of spec,that causes droplets of fuel instead of atomizing,which then leads to knocking and piston failure. Pat

[PAT303]

Sorry about this being my first post but I been lurking on the forum for a couple of years now. I'm a Toyota owner and mechanic looking to eventually make to leap to a Defender... eventually

Long story short - avoid remanufactured injectors at all costs. Instead get genuine and new Denso products - they aren't that expensive these days. There is plenty of experience on this topic from the Hilux, Prado and Cruise D4D engines.

Regards
Arch

No chance,I want them to be right,as in original spec right,not Denso close enough right. Pat

[Marty90]

No chance,I want them to be right,as in original spec right,not Denso close enough right. PatDon't Bosch make injectors

[PAT303]

Don't Bosch make injectors

Denso make Bosch pumps/injectors under license,without Bosch's quality control.That is why I would prefer reconditioned blue printed ones from Bailey's as an example. Pat

[afb]

I just checked, the Puma 2.2 has the Siemens injectors https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/04/114.jpg

[PAT303]

When did they change?. Pat

[Arch]

No chance,I want them to be right,as in original spec right,not Denso close enough right. Pat

All brands have problems and this is often made worse by user error. My point is - just stay away from remanufactured injectors. Get new injectors, no matter what the brand.

[MLD]

I just checked, the Puma 2.2 has the Siemens injectors https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/04/114.jpg


Baileys Diesel Group sells Denso injectors for Transit/LR 2.2 and 2.4. And sells Siemens for Ranger/BT50 2.2. Not sure if they are interchangeable.

[afb]

Baileys Diesel Group sells Denso injectors for Transit/LR 2.2 and 2.4. And sells Siemens for Ranger/BT50 2.2. Not sure if they are interchangeable.

That’s right, the part number for the Siemens Puma injectors matches the Rangers.

[MLD]

I had cause to speak with Baileys Diesel today. According to BD the siemans injector from the Ranger 2.2 is not interchangeable with the Denso injector from the Puma 2.2 without reprogramming the ECU to "see" the siemans injector. It is possible that LR built the 2.2 with a siemans injector and owners would have to check to see which is used.

[martnH]

I had cause to speak with Baileys Diesel today. According to BD the siemans injector from the Ranger 2.2 is not interchangeable with the Denso injector from the Puma 2.2 without reprogramming the ECU to "see" the siemans injector. It is possible that LR built the 2.2 with a siemans injector and owners would have to check to see which is used.So how to check if the injectors are Siemens or Denso?

All I see is fomoco hehe...

I just wonder, there must be people running these engines commercially and how would they manage there? Do they check and recondition injectors every 100k?

Cheers

[MLD]

So how to check if the injectors are Siemens or Denso?

All I see is fomoco hehe...

I just wonder, there must be people running these engines commercially and how would they manage there? Do they check and recondition injectors every 100k?

Cheers

what you are asking is beyond my limited knowledge. i called Bailey to arrange testing of my injectors and asked the Q. I assume there would be a manufacturer ref in the serial. If you have the time and patience comparing the serials from Denso supplied and Siemans supplied might show up a unique ref common to all injectors from each brand.

You would expect large fleet operators of Transit vans to know common problems and service intervals for known problems. Whether they take preventative action is another thing. I can't imagine old mate and his courier company with a fleet of 1 or 2 vans would know or take preventative action.

[tact]

I had cause to speak with Baileys Diesel today. According to BD the siemans injector from the Ranger 2.2 is not interchangeable with the Denso injector from the Puma 2.2 without reprogramming the ECU to "see" the siemans injector. It is possible that LR built the 2.2 with a siemans injector and owners would have to check to see which is used.

I wonder if the "injector learn" sequence in the BAS tool does the job?

[martnH]

I wonder if the "injector learn" sequence in the BAS tool does the job?The bas tool is based on IIDtool bt and that is a poweful diagnostic tool.

If Peter can offer an upgrade for us to purchase, to unlock these function. That would be fantastic.

Apparently it is doable the other way. You can buy a IID BT and then the bas remap.

[martnH]

as with your question, I will say probably yes.

Alternatively it is not too expensive to obtain a *offline* version of the diagnostic tool dealer used....

I am currently looking at these options as I realized I will need something more than a set of spanners.

Cheer
Martin

[tact]

The bas tool is based on IIDtool bt and that is a poweful diagnostic tool.

If Peter can offer an upgrade for us to purchase, to unlock these function. That would be fantastic.

Apparently it is doable the other way. You can buy a IID BT and then the bas remap.

If I remember correctly - There is already 2 routines in the BAS tool that reference injectors. One is related to resetting injector calibration, the other is for when an injector is replaced and the new injector code needs to be updated to the vehicle system.

My wondering - is whether these functions would work if one replaced original injectors with some other brand... Maybe a question better addressed to Pete Bell

[Robmacca]

Also found this: CRD Fuel Enhancer for Common Rail Engines - Cost Effective Maintenance (https://costeffective.com.au/product/crd-fuel-enhancer-for-common-rail-engines/) I’m always wary of an ‘additive fix’ but would be really interested to hear the thoughts of you guys as mechanics/experts. Should we all be adding this to our fuel? As well as installing a second fuel filter?

I've been running this stuff in the missus D4d Prado since new along with a Racor Aux Fuel Filter (2micron filter). Our Prado now has 180+k on it's going fine, but we did replace the injectors at 160k mark as a precaution as the fuel feedback and fuel volume readings were getting a little bit too out of spec. We replaced the injectors with the NEW improved Denso Injectors and the engine definitely runs quieter. I've read and heard about a few issues (from mates) about the Baileys Injectors and went with the Denso ones which were about $450/each. I've since read that some of the issues with the D4d may not be just injector related but also the piston design as well.... Just another thing to worry about :( Anyhow, we have decided to keep the missus Prado for the next 3>5yrs or so (unless something major happens to it). Our Prado doesn't have a Chip or been remapped like some of the other guys that have had engine issues, so I don't know it that is also related.
If u look at the BIG picture and the number of vehicles out there that are running the d4d engines, the failures are only a small percentage but to those that it has happened to it's a BIG thing that should not have happened in the 1st place... Like most manufacturers, I think Toyota quality control has been slipping for a number of years now, but from my limited experience, they are still ahead of most other manufacturers.... Would I buy a NEW Toyota 4WD.... probably not but I probably wouldn't any new 4WD these days either....

Getting back to the CEM product... Does it work? Well I've only ever heard GOOD things about it and from our experience it's been good.... but it is expensive stuff and I do get it for a good price through a mate of mine so I'll continue to use it until that option is no longer there....

[Arch]

I've been running this stuff in the missus D4d Prado since new along with a Racor Aux Fuel Filter (2micron filter). Our Prado now has 180+k on it's going fine, but we did replace the injectors at 160k mark as a precaution as the fuel feedback and fuel volume readings were getting a little bit too out of spec. We replaced the injectors with the NEW improved Denso Injectors and the engine definitely runs quieter. I've read and heard about a few issues (from mates) about the Baileys Injectors and went with the Denso ones which were about $450/each. I've since read that some of the issues with the D4d may not be just injector related but also the piston design as well.... Just another thing to worry about :( Anyhow, we have decided to keep the missus Prado for the next 3>5yrs or so (unless something major happens to it). Our Prado doesn't have a Chip or been remapped like some of the other guys that have had engine issues, so I don't know it that is also related.
If u look at the BIG picture and the number of vehicles out there that are running the d4d engines, the failures are only a small percentage but to those that it has happened to it's a BIG thing that should not have happened in the 1st place... Like most manufacturers, I think Toyota quality control has been slipping for a number of years now, but from my limited experience, they are still ahead of most other manufacturers.... Would I buy a NEW Toyota 4WD.... probably not but I probably wouldn't any new 4WD these days either....

Getting back to the CEM product... Does it work? Well I've only ever heard GOOD things about it and from our experience it's been good.... but it is expensive stuff and I do get it for a good price through a mate of mine so I'll continue to use it until that option is no longer there....

Re your D4D - keep an eye on your injector feedback values and greatly reduce the risk of doing a piston (D4Ds were once my bread and butter). The feeback values can give you an indication of firstly injector wear but also if you injector seats have failed (observed too on puma engines). Chips are a good way of doing pistons too - so you are lucky there.

[Robmacca]

Re your D4D - keep an eye on your injector feedback values and greatly reduce the risk of doing a piston (D4Ds were once my bread and butter). The feeback values can give you an indication of firstly injector wear but also if you injector seats have failed (observed too on puma engines). Chips are a good way of doing pistons too - so you are lucky there.

Yeah, for that reason I never chipped ours and I've got a techstream program that monitors the fuel feedback and volume values but I must admit I haven't checked them since the new injectors when it....

[DazzaTD5]

I have commented on this with others that have had a engine failure just out of warranty....

*Any major failure (say oh i dunno, an engine) that occurs just out of warranty is not considered to be fair and reasonable according to the ACCC or any reasonably sane person.
*The manufacturer is obligated to treat such failures as if its still under new car warranty.

my advise for what its worth...
*Obviously approach the dealer in a polite respectful manner (which I guess is the case so far as you mention they are trying to get it under warranty for you)
*Keep in mind that might be a dealer bull**** ploy "yeah gee sorry we tried to get it as a warranty but bad evil Jaguar Land Rover said no" type thing.
*If that fails, approach the manufacturer directly.
*If that fails, contact a lawyer (or solicitor (I dunno the difference) and pay that initial fee for another scumbag shark THAT IS BEING PAID TO BE ON YOUR SIDE.
*Make a youtube video "I made a mistake i bought a Land Rover" [tonguewink][tonguewink][tonguewink]
Actually even better, get on to Youtube and see Lemon Squash Creative
- YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkDmSixzvUf9nKhXA6WW-Cg/videos)

Consumer warranty is not just for house hold appliances.

[DazzaTD5]

also to the OP...

*Talk with a Ford mechanic, oil pump failures arent an unknown thing, but if you consider the amount of Ford Transits on the road the failure rate is pretty low (and if you compare it to failure rates of other Ford models then its not even an issue)

[Beery]

Mine's an MY15 and it's got Siemens/Continental injectors. In the photo below you can just see Continental written on the cap of the injector.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/04/540.jpg

[Tote]

Pulled the cover off mine and had a look today. MY 2016, November 2015 build, seems to have the same injectors as Beery

139413

Regards,
Tote

[big harold]

Hi, just experienced the same issue ( cracked piston ) on my 130 2.2lt at just over 105000km. Just wondering if this is still happening to any other 2.2s, as the threads are all 2015/16. Dealer is suggesting a replacement engine, as parts to repair are so expensive for Land Rover! Mine is a 2012, used 80% on long country driving, 20% on farm. The Td5 and Tdi s that I have run, have all done to the 200kms, so not too happy with this one. Have been a LR owner since 1977 and this one is No. 13 for me......
Any update on this?
Did Land Rover come to the party?

[martnH]

Mine's an MY15 and it's got Siemens/Continental injectors. In the photo below you can just see Continental written on the cap of the injector.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/04/540.jpgMine is MY13

So...I have got the Denso?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/06/252.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/06/253.jpg

[Beery]

Mine is MY13

So...I have got the Denso?https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/06/252.jpghttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2018/06/253.jpgHave a look on the other side of the injector cap. The writing is molded into the plastic.

[rgty_kmj]

Hi,

This thread is getting a bit old now but it seemed the best thread to post to.

I posted a couple of weeks back that I had a minor overheating problem see <https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/180291-ultra-gauge-temperature-reading-4.html#post3202761>

MLD suggested an injector check and this was a good recommendation. (Thanks mate!)
The injectors were Denso.

All 4 injectors have failed an injector test.

The test sheets have the following categories :
Electrical, Flushing, Purge, TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4, TP5, TP6, Static Leak, NOP and Grading code. (Is TP short for Throttle Position?).

Injector 1 and 4 failed TP1 and TP2. (see attached sheet for injector 1)
Injector 2 and 3 failed TP1 only.

Now I've heard stories of injector failure causing burnt pistons.

My question is have I caught this issue early or should I get the pistons looked at to see if there is any damage?


Thanks

Kerry

P.S. The Land Rover dealer can get me Siemens injectors which according to this thread were fitted to later 2.2 engines.

[DazzaTD5]

*Siemens and VDO are owned by Continental so they are all Conti now.
*the 2.2 are prone to injector failures at round that 100K.
*2.2 injector failures are common in rangers, transits etc.
*I dont test them as the cost is better put towards new injectors.
*The obvious sign is the injectors rattle when cold.

*Well if it doesnt crack a piston, then its fine [tonguewink]

[DazzaTD5]

also I would check prices, the genuine are round 1200 each, the VDO / Conti are half the price

[rgty_kmj]

Thanks Daz, for your regular pearls of wisdom.

Kerry

[MLD]

Hi,

MLD suggested an injector check and this was a good recommendation. (Thanks mate!)

Now I've heard stories of injector failure causing burnt pistons.

not sure how you would inspect without taking head off, unless you can get a probe into the glow plug port, this is what i found when the head came off. a second piston had a smaller crack. My first engine (2.4) (the pic) went around 100,000 kms and i fitted an unknown history Transit 2.4 (long story and not the preferred path), at 180,000 kms the injectors were smokey as and just been replaced. No idea if i've done engine internal damage. No overheating so fingers crossed.

187098

[rgty_kmj]

Thanks MLD,

The injectors have turned up.
I'll see if they can poke a remote camera through the glow plug hole or the injector hole to take a look at the top of the pistons.

Kerry

[DieselDan]

A bit of a thread revival, but most of the pertinent info is in this thread so thought I'd reply here rather than start a new topic.


My 2.2 puma has over 120,000km on it now and due to this thread, some other tales of woe, and Dazza's advice on this forum, I've decided to replace the injectors.
This is where the fun starts.....


The LR part number for these injectors is LR032067 and is clearly shown as the correct part (Conti number 2910000177400) on Conti's website:




However, back when these were branded as Siemens/VDO, the LR032067 number was cross-referenced to a VDO part number A2C59517051.
This is a snapshot from an online seller still showing an old VDO branded box:




I have purchased some Continental branded injectors which show the A2C59517051 part number, however the Conti website says these aren't for a Defender and are for Ford/Citroen/Peugeot:




This is all very similar to a thread on Defender2.net!!
DEFENDER2.NET - View topic - 2.2 Defender OEM injector issue - knocking/rattling (https://www.defender2.net/forum/post836495.html)



I have contacted the vendor, who assures me that even if he tries to order the Conti number 2910000177400, he will be sent part number A2C59510751 anyway.
He has even sent me a copy of an old VDO part catalogue which cross references the part numbers as the same.


I have also contacted Conti directly and asked them if the Conti branded part A2C59510751 is OK to use in a Defender. I've had an auto-reply requesting some more info, but yet to get a definitive answer.


So has anyone who has replaced their 2.2 puma injectors with Conti parts received the 2910000177400 or the A2C59510751?
And if you've got the latter, do they work OK?


Cheers.

[Lagerfan]

I'm struggling with the same issue.

I found this crowd locally: SIEMENS COMMON RAIL INJECTOR. LAND ROVER DEFENDER. A2C53421318 – Euro Car Parts Australia (https://eurocarpartsaustralia.com.au/shop/fuel-injection/diesel-injectors/siemens-vdo/siemens-common-rail-injector-land-rover-defender-a2c53421318/) and the alt part listed there also corresponds to what is on my injectors i.e. BH1Q-9K546-AB so I was going to order ... but never got around to it. In the meantime they have gone up $110+ (I think they were $435 when I was initially looking). This was the only place I could find them with that 2910000177400 part number who list the other part number as separate: A2C595170751 SIEMENS COMMON RAIL INJECTOR. FORD / MAZDA 2.2LTR AND 3.2LTR. – Euro Car Parts Australia (https://eurocarpartsaustralia.com.au/shop/fuel-injection/diesel-injectors/siemens-vdo/siemens-common-rail-injector-ford-ranger-mazda-bt50-2-2ltr-and-3-2ltr-u20213h50c/)

Others (like Baileys 403 Forbidden (https://www.baileysdiesel.com/product/VDO-Siemens-Injector-to-suit-Ford-Ranger-Mazda-BT50-2-2L-&-3-2L)) list them as one and the same.

So am at a loss too and would like to know.

PS Yes I got nervous after reading that thread on defender2.net some time back as well

[DieselDan]

I received a reply from Conti's technical support service overnight and, surprise surprise, they are adamant that only the 2910000177400 is suitable for use in the 2.2 puma Defender.
I guess it's possible that the current Conti team may be unaware of the supposed shared part history, but even if they are aware of the history (which they may have concluded was incorrect?), they have clearly differentiated the parts by number and usage so you have to assume they have a reason for doing so!

As an upshot of this, I've asked my supplier if they can source the correct Conti branded LR032067/2910000177400 parts.

[DazzaTD5]

I have fitted a countless amount of A2C59510751 injectors.
i think this thread and people are over thinking about info that they arent full bottle on.

the part numbers are likely VDO or siemens or Conti and at some point as Conti bought all the others it became one part number.
the part number with the letters/number that end in AB, AC etc are ford part numbers.

I would be FAR MORE concerned about whom installs them and calibrates them.
I also reset or calibrate the HPFP every service now after having a good chat with a Ford Transit repairer, he does it on all Transits and has far less issues.

And as a comparison, he had a rack full of failed 2.2 engines, him and his worker had a good laugh at me saying the 2.4 / 2.2 are one of the best / reliable engines that have been in a Defender.

P.S and as for Conti tech saying this and that, I take that with a pinch of salt.
I recently had Makita Australia technical bluh bluh say to my local tool shop that the warranty on two of my tools is almost up (within 3 days of a 12month warranty ending) and that anymore repairers on 2 tools would have to be paid for. The actually fact is according to MyMakita App because I reg'd my tools have a 5 year warranty AND even if I hadnt of reg'd my tool on the app they still have a flat 3 year warranty. So "tech support" in general know **** all about **** all [tonguewink]

[DieselDan]

Yeah I'm possibly being a bit too paranoid!
And I agree it matters who installs and calibrates them.

However, it's not that they have become one part number under Conti (and therefore they're all the same) it's that they probably WERE one part number under Siemens/VDO but now Conti insist that they're different.

We can all agree that the correct part is LR032067 and under Siemens/VDO that maybe WAS A2C59510751 but under Conti it isn't.

If I had received a VDO branded boxed part that said LR032067 and A2C59510751 I'd probably not be concerned.
But I've ordered part LR032067 and received a Conti box that doesn't say LR032067 anywhere, nor does it have the Conti part number that they say is applicable for my vehicle. So surely I'm not being too fussy in asking for what I ordered??

[Lagerfan]

I also reset or calibrate the HPFP every service now after having a good chat with a Ford Transit repairer, he does it on all Transits and has far less issues.


Is this something a DIYer can do on the 2.2 or does it need some specialised gear? I notice this option isn’t there on the BAS or GAP tool for the 2.2 so bit lost there on how one goes about it.

And yes 100% overthinking on my part but I’m a complete novice! Always appreciate your input and expertise here.

[DazzaTD5]

Yeah I'm possibly being a bit too paranoid!
And I agree it matters who installs and calibrates them.

However, it's not that they have become one part number under Conti (and therefore they're all the same) it's that they probably WERE one part number under Siemens/VDO but now Conti insist that they're different.

We can all agree that the correct part is LR032067 and under Siemens/VDO that maybe WAS A2C59510751 but under Conti it isn't.

If I had received a VDO branded boxed part that said LR032067 and A2C59510751 I'd probably not be concerned.
But I've ordered part LR032067 and received a Conti box that doesn't say LR032067 anywhere, nor does it have the Conti part number that they say is applicable for my vehicle. So surely I'm not being too fussy in asking for what I ordered??

yes I agree that under Conti its all changed.

well if I order LR032067 the box has a sticker on it with LR032067, the box is the orange/black Conti box.
maybe order from a place that puts a LR032067 sticker on it [tonguewink]
I'm only kidding, I dont see it as an issue, I vaguely remember years ago that the white/blue boxes (vdo, siemens) might have had a different manufacturers number on it.

a genuine one i'm guessing will only have a LR032067 number on it, but at $1100 each.

[DazzaTD5]

Is this something a DIYer can do on the 2.2 or does it need some specialised gear? I notice this option isn’t there on the BAS or GAP tool for the 2.2 so bit lost there on how one goes about it.

And yes 100% overthinking on my part but I’m a complete novice! Always appreciate your input and expertise here.

i think from memory the GAP tool has a reset option for the HP pump.
I use a snapon tool and do it as a transit etc

[DazzaTD5]

also...

the Conti is never going to have a LR part number on it or Ford I guess, they are the manufacturers / wholesalers.

[DieselDan]

Yeah good point, the Conti box isn't going to have the LR32067 number on it I guess.

Anyway, an update from my end: I've got hold of some 2910000177400 injectors and I've started cleaning everything ready for swapping them over.
In terms of cleanliness, the workshop manual mentions cleaning fluid, a brush and a vacuum line, which seems straightforward enough. But doesn't mention removing the acoustic foam pad that sits around the injectors, which would need slitting to remove. Or how you remove any gunk that's under the clamp.

So any tips? Worth removing the acoustic foam pad?

[DieselDan]

Well I seemed to do an ok job cleaning everything up, didn't need to remove the acoustic foam, and the old injectors came out easily enough. Put the new ones in with new bolts on the clamps.
I followed the advice on the BAS website and put the standard tune back in, cleared the adaptation values, entered the new injector codes and cranked her over and went for a drive. Kept the standard tune in for a couple of days then repeated with the 150AB tune.
All good so far.

[Tote]

Another one bites the Dust, 175,000KM with a new motor supplied and fitted by Transit Auto in Melbourne who did a very good job. Sad story in the "what did you do to your defender today" thread.

Regards,
Tote