Ned Kelly.

[Pickles2]

Tomorrow we leave for a couple of days cruising around in "Kelly Country".
Will probably visit Ned's final resting place in the Greta Cemetary, and anywhere else we can get to in the limited time available to us.
Have any of you guys done any SERIOUS research into "The Kelly Saga"?....I'd welcome your thoughts,.....whatever they are.
Pickles.

[digger]

Visit Mansfield cemetery - pay your respects at the graves of the three police officers murdered by Ned Kelly and his gang. The following may be of interest to you. My family wanted to visit the Kelly museum and I refused to go with them...my views are well known here... Sitting in the coffee shop across the road the staff asked if I was a Policeman, when I said yes they said it was quite common to see people doing as I did..especialy Law enforcement.

Remember and honour the bravery of Sergeant Michael Kennedy and Constables Thomas Lonigan and Michael Scanlan who were gunned down by Kelly and his band of outlaws at Stringybark Creek, near Mansfield, in 1878.

Kelly was executed in 1880 after being found guilty of murdering Constable Lonigan.

As Kelly had already been sentenced to death, the authorities decided not to bother trying him for the murders of Sgt Kennedy and Constable Scanlan - a fact which still angers the Kennedy and Scanlan families.

Sgt Kennedy's great grandson, lawyer and chartered accountant Leo Kennedy, used his speech at the rededication of the graves in 2003 (?) to express that anger.

He also blasted the rewriting of history to glorify Kelly.

Sgt Kennedy was leading a search party to find and arrest Kelly and his gang when the bushrangers ambushed the police camp.

The wounded Sgt Kennedy tried to hide in the bush, but Kelly chased after him and shot him dead before stealing his watch and other possessions.

Kelly later claimed he only shot Sgt Kennedy to put him out of his misery as he was in pain and dying from his earlier wounds - a claim the Kennedy family disputes.

Police are sickened by the constant glorifying of Kelly and his gang.

"Winston Churchill once said that 'history is written by the victors', well, one side of the story around armed robbery, theft and multiple murders committed by a bunch of vicious criminals in country Victoria has certainly challenged that statement," Sen-Sgt Davies of Vicpol said.

"From horse thieving to assaults and armed robberies, to unlawful imprisonment and a plan for a massacre by train derailment, to the murder of three policemen, the real story around Kelly has been twisted to something entirely unrecognisable from the historical truth.

"Those who deliberately distort the truth and try to rewrite history, in order to line their pockets by perpetuating a lie, are the worst thieves of all. They steal our past.

"There was nothing brave about Kelly - he was no more brave than Julian Knight or Martin Bryant.

"He was a psychopathic criminal misfit who left a trail of destruction and misery in his wake and who the ignorant have lionised for their own pathetic purposes.

"He was no Robin Hood - there is not a shred of evidence, anywhere, that he spent his filthy lucre on anyone other than himself.

"I only hope that in another 100 years we don't have twisted minds trying to lionise Knight and Bryant.

"No one cares that Kelly may have had a tough life. Almost every single person in the 19th century colony of Victoria had a tough life - and they didn't all become murdering armed robbers.

"Kelly and his mob of thugs would have been consigned to the past had they not wrapped a piece of iron around their heads.

"Thankfully, Kelly ended with a piece of rope around his neck."

Victoria Police Chief Commissioner Ken Lay also criticised the glorifying of Kelly and his gang.

"All across Victoria are the bodies of men and women murdered trying to protect their state.

Here are three of them," Mr Lay said in his speech at the Mansfield cemetery.

"It is a shame that in death, another indignity befell Sgt Kennedy and Constables Lonigan and Scanlan.

"They became pawns in the long-running historical conjecture about the meaning of Ned Kelly.

"In other words, they became nothing more than footnotes to the lives and excesses of those who killed them.

"So, let's do these men the honour of stripping away the clutter. Let's give these men our full attention.

"The simple truth is that these men were asked to do something very difficult and very dangerous because it was their job to do it.

"Constable Scanlan knew there was a good chance he wouldn't return, and so, before he left that day on his horse, he told a mate that he could have his dog should he die out there. He did.

"They all died out there.

"There was barbarism and loneliness in their final moments, and the cultural adoration of their killers doesn't change that.

"They hold a sacred place in Victoria Police - as do the other 154 Victorian members killed in the line of duty."

Police Minister Kim Wells, who was also at the ceremony, said the State Government was proud to be associated with the restoration of the graves.

"More than 135 years since the three officers were killed at the battle of Stringybark Creek, their graves have been restored as a mark of respect," he said.

Mr Wells said the Mansfield graves of the Kelly gang victims were among 14 belonging to police officers killed on duty that were being restored as part of the government's commitment to the Victorian Police Graves Memorial Fund.

The fund is managed by the Police Grave Restoration Committee, which is includes members of the Blue Ribbon Foundation, the Police Association and the Victoria Police Historical Society.

Below is an edited version of the speech Leo Kennedy gave at the ceremony

"I am Leo Kennedy, one of Sgt Michael Kennedy and Bridget Tobin's great grandchildren," he said.

"At secondary school I was known as 'Red Ned' due to my great grandfather's murder at the hands of an outlaw and knowledge of the events of the time.

"All my life I have heard about the effects of the murder of Sgt Kennedy on his wife and family. My father Frank repeated things said by his grandmother Bridget and his father James.

"The Kennedys have an untold story. It is a much better story than that of a bully, a cattle thief, a murderer, an economic terrorist; who tried to end his life by suicide by cop - and failed.

"Sgt Kennedy and mounted troopers Lonigan and Scanlan were three Irish migrants, three good and honest police, three respected men in Mansfield and surrounds.

"At the time Mansfield was a growing town, but it was being impeded by an element of lawlessness - thefts of cattle and horses were ruining farmers and damaging the economy.

"Sgt Kennedy was awarded for his efforts in stopping a lot of it. But it would lead to his death. "He led one of two parties of four sent to hunt for the Kelly gang.

"In the case of Bridget Kennedy - like Mrs Lonigan - it is a story of the determination, strength and enterprise of pioneering women, wearing aprons not armour. True heroes. Fighting adversity to raise large families left fatherless after brutal slayings.

"The loss of the three police had a deep impact on Mansfield, the State of Victoria and Australia. It is notable that the Anglican archbishop came to Mansfield after the deaths of these Catholic men - an unprecedented ecumenical act.

"Sgt Kennedy came to Australia with his parents, Hugh and Roaseanna, and possibly other family. We know vaguely of a sister because Jimmy had cousins. Lost - due to the break in the line. One can only imagine their grief. Fortunately they were there for his widow and children.

"Bridget Kennedy was with child (her sixth). Deeply saddened, first hearing her husband was unaccounted for then waiting for days for news.

"Was he captured? Was he wounded? Was he dead? Comforting her five children, aged between nine and two, and worrying about her unborn.

"Then news he was found dead, brutalised - his body blasted into repeatedly after death and robbed. His watch and other possessions sold by the Kellys.

"His stolen note book is still in the hands of a private collector.

"Have a heart - please return it to his family.

"My father would often recite things he heard his grandmother, Sgt Kennedy's wife, say."

Those words have been recorded and passed down through generations of the Kennedy family.

The comments of Sgt Kennedy's wife include:

IT is unjust that Kelly was never tried for the murder of my husband.

THEY should not have stopped at one trial. He should have been tried for the murder of my husband. So it could be there for history. People talk of one murder - there were three.

THEY left him so badly mutilated I was not allowed to see the body - I was not allowed to grieve properly.

THE inquest said he was shot several times after he had been felled. What sort of animals do that?

THEY robbed his body - how low to take a man's watch and other belongings.

THEY bragged about how they blew them away and then they changed their story.

THEY should never release that Kelly movie. There is already too much printed nonsense about that murderer.

"She was indeed in grief and angry all her life at her loss and the treatment of her husband at the hands of the outlaws," Leo Kennedy said at the ceremony.

"And she let it be known.

"She fought the image of as 'bold as Ned Kelly'. She would say there was only one bold one that day 'it was my Michael'.

"She proudly said how she and Mrs Lonigan had stopped that movie.

"As a post script - the Kelly movie was released about a week after she died.

"The other side of Bridget is that of a woman who was resilient and stoic, who faced up to the challenges of raising her family alone.

"She had their sixth child alone - no husband to support her. Imagine her grief when her new born died weeks later.

"From that low ebb she fought back with the support of family, the Mansfield community, the churches and last but not least, the police. It was a community binding effort and we thank them for that support.

"It is often said there is a police family - it is true. The police looked after and supported the Kennedys and Lonigans - and again we thank them.

"Bridget's son James Kennedy, it has been said of him that he seemed to live with a shadow over him and it affected how he dealt with people.

"He appeared arrogant. A front to block out the hurt. His father's killer was used as a symbol of defiance and bravery - but to him he was a cruel killer.

"The mention of Kelly in any form would ignite in him an angry outburst about the gutless cur who killed his father and robbed his body and used it for target practice.

"The hurt ran deep and was with him all his life.

"The impact from the murder of Sgt Kennedy on the Kennedy family goes on - in the form of the treatment of his killer and fictional accounts of his life.

"All ignoring the true victims - the families of the murdered police.

"Seldom has anyone called upon the family to find out their perspective or ask their view. Or even seek our permission for an event or a sign or a tourist promotion.

"When my father passed away in 2009 I started a journey of writing down what I remembered him saying so that it would not be lost like other oral history.

"I went further - I went to the State Library and read the papers of the day.

"I went to the Public Records of Victoria to read the inquest of Sgt Kennedy's death. But I was severely disappointed - only the cover sleeve is there. The contents gone - probably in the hands of some so called historian or lost.

"Wikipedia - on a site with nameless moderators - Sgt Kennedy's death and treatment at the hands of the outlaws keeps disappearing.

"I say, spare me the apologies to Ned. When is someone going to turn their attention to the wives and families of those murdered?

"As a family we were extremely disappointed and upset to find Tourism Victoria describe our forebear as 'associated' with Kelly - he was not. Being murdered by is not the same as associated.

"Imagine our shock when we found a Kelly Trail sign inside the cemetery pointing to their graves - Tourism Victoria, shame on you. Again we were not asked. We were not considered.

"I would like to make some constructive comments.

"In 2012 I sought out the Police Grave Restoration Committee, which approved work on the graves. I wish to thank them for their dedication and work on all fallen police graves. It is a highly commendable activity.

"Going forward, "Tourism Victoria must reshape its pitch - many Victorians, interstate Australians and overseas visitors do not understand the worship of a police killer.

"If you want a trail then make it the Kelly Hunter's trail. Clean it up with some wholesome factual characters.

"For the next generation - what do I say to a son who wants to enter the police force?

"Beware that one day you may come against someone who has been fed a steady diet of Kelly nonsense - that it is OK to defy the law and police.

"Or be brave like the Sgt. Try to do your job like the Sgt. Be proud of your heritage and of being a policeman. Uphold the right.

"As a family we continue to protect the honour and reputation of Sgt Kennedy and his widow. "We will protect their names and image. We will insist upon factual accounts of them - not twisted to attract tourists.

" We are proud of them and their place in history - as true heroes.

"One died on the job for justice and right.

"The other worked hard and raised her family alone. She did not wear stolen armour or blame others - instead she wore an apron, faced into a hard reality, accepted responsibility and raised a family."


I reckon that should be some food for thought...

text from a Kieth Moor article

[Rextheute]

Just a couple of days ago spent time at Stringybark Creek , if you can spend the night it's worth it , a nice campground- has drop toilets and fire pits .

We were the only campers there .

It's a very quiet peaceful place , but don't let the "legend " get in the way of good tourism , the Kelly trail ranges far and wide - it was over a couple of years that they committed the crimes - the bush is thick and in some places steep .
Imagine being a timber cutter , gold miner or farmer 150 yrs ago . Everything moved on a dray with bullocks or horses .

The trail is interesting and I think is beginning to reflect on the fact that Kelly and his gang were not necessarily the victims in this saga - they had been stealing/mining gold to fund their lifestyles for some time .

[SPROVER]

No disrespect to you digger. But i guess you weren't expecting that pickles😆

[JDNSW]

Not quite in the same league, but a good modern day equivalent to the Kellys would be the Stoccos.

John

[p38arover]

I've never understood why Kelly seems to be revered by some.

[V8Ian]

I have to admit that until I was made aware of your views Digger, I gave little regard to the facts. All I knew was the tourists' version, that we learned in primary school. I had no interest in the Kelly saga, so never took the issues further. I do recall my Father's discust that we, as a nation, idolised the Kellys.
Thanks for setting the record straight Digger, it's definately food for thought.

[Orkney 90]

I would also like to thank you Digger for reminding us that there was the "real" version of events, not just the fairy-tale legend that seems so popular today.

Kelly and his gang were nothing but murderous scum, and there should be more of an effort, in schools especially to teach the facts. Much more emphasis needs to be put on the police officers who died in the line of duty. Children are being taught indirectly through the fairy-tale version of Kelly's life that gang crimes are cool, and being an "outlaw" is brave. And then we wonder why society is heading down the gurgler.

[Greatsouthernland]

Tomorrow we leave for a couple of days cruising around in "Kelly Country".
Will probably visit Ned's final resting place in the Greta Cemetary, and anywhere else we can get to in the limited time available to us.
Have any of you guys done any SERIOUS research into "The Kelly Saga"?....I'd welcome your thoughts,.....whatever they are.
Pickles.

Enjoy the countryside :) ..


it was a miscarriage of justice.
kelly was a victim of police harassment.

Proof?

[mikehzz]

I think the same thing may have happened with Robin Hood. Good King Richard was a war moungering arsewipe who was born in France, couldn't speak English and spent less than 6 months in England. Evil Prince John actually ruled the country and was backed into a financial corner due to Richard's spending on the Crusades. He signed the Magna Carta to give us the basis of our system of government. Robin Hood was probably a crook and the Sheriff of Nottingham just trying to do his job. You can't trust anything you read......even this. But I do think this is closer to the truth than the Errol Flynn version :D

[JDNSW]

It is a bit difficult to compare thirteenth century England with nineteenth century Australia, for a start, nineteenth century records are pretty much complete. But there are some parallels that can be drawn.

A significant part of the popularity of Robin Hood (if he even existed!) is because he was seen as a champion of an oppressed part of the population (Saxons, especially their upper class who lost out badly in 1066).

Similarly, a lot of the popularity of Kelly can is because he could be seen as a champion of the oppressed Catholic Irish. In many respects these were in the same position as Muslims in contemporary Australia. (It was only a few years after an Irish assassin had tried to murder Prince Alfred in Sydney.)

But the popularity of any national "heroes" has little to do with what they were really like. Consider for example that Australia's most popular national song is about a suicidal stock thief.

It all comes down to "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story" - but try to remember it's only a story.

John

John

[Eevo]

it was a miscarriage of justice.
kelly was a victim of police harassment.

[V8Ian]

Another inane comment from the usual quarter. :(

[alien]

it was a miscarriage of justice.
kelly was a victim of police harassment.

Absolutely, he was a victim of harassment.
Of course if he had done nothing wrong and not threatend the authorities he would have been left to do his thing.
I wonder if his threats would be considered under today's laws as teririsim?

[Tote]

Would be interesting to get John Schumann's opinion of his lyrics 30 years on....

Eighteen-hundred & 78 was the year I remember so well
they put my father in an early grave and slung my mother in gaol
now I don't know what's right or wrong
but they hung Christ on nails
6 kids at home & 2 still on the breast
they wouldn't even give her bail

( CHORUS:

Poor Ned, you're better off dead
at least you'll get some peace of mind
you're out on the track
they're right on your back
boy they're gonna hang you high )

You know I wrote a letter 'bout Stringy-Bark Creek
so they would understand
that I might be a bushranger
but I'm not a murdering man
I didn't want to shoot Kennedy
or that copper Lonnigan
he alone could have saved his life
by throwing down his gun

CHORUS

You know they took Ned Kelly
& they hung him in the Melbourne gaol
he fought so very bravely
dressed in iron mail
& no man single handed
can hope to break the bars
there's a thousand like Ned Kelly
who'll hoist the flag of stars

we sing...CHORUS


Not disagreeing with Digger but the "underdog" fable of the Kelly gang has existed for a long time and was also confused and distorted by other Australian history such as the sovereign hill uprising, Waltzing Matilda, and potato famine migrants coming to Australia. Ironic that the murdered troopers came from this background.
We are not the only culture to celebrate outlaws, America has a fascination with Billy the Kid and British Highwaymen are often presented as dashing figures in popular media.

Regards,

Tote

[Rextheute]

So did pickles have an adventure ?

[Greatsouthernland]

Seems there was some shenanigans from the justice department all through Ned's life. The police involved did themselves no favours with the recorded actions I read - court records, royal commission, police sacking etc. seem solid. All is not as it first seemed to me...

From Wikipedia-

Trial

At the Benalla Police Court, on 17 May 1878, William Williamson, alias "Brickey", William Skillion and Ellen Kelly, while on remand, were charged with aiding and abetting attempted murder.[46] The three appeared on 9 October 1878 before Judge Redmond Barry and charged with attempted murder. Despite Fitzpatrick's doctor reporting a strong smell of alcohol on the constable and his inability to confirm the wrist wound was caused by a bullet,[35] Fitzpatrick's evidence was accepted by the police, the judge, and the jury made up of several ex-police, a shanty keeper who did business with the police,[47] and according to J.J. Kenneally, "others who were prejudiced against the Kellys." The three were convicted on Fitzpatrick's unsupported evidence. Skillion and Williamson both received sentences of six years and Ellen three years of hard labor. Barry stated that if Ned were present he would "give him 15 years", even though the latter was not charged.[9][48] Frank Harty, a successful and well-known farmer in the area, offered to pay Ellen Kelly's bail upon which bail was immediately refused.[41]

Ellen Kelly's sentence was considered unfair even by people who had no cause to be Kelly sympathizers. Alfred Wyatt, a police magistrate headquartered in Benalla told the Commission later "I thought the sentence upon that old woman, Mrs Kelly, a very severe one."[49] Enoch Downes, a truant officer, recounted to the Commission in 1881 that while speaking to Joe Byrne's mother, he said that he did not believe in the sentence and "if policy had been used or consideration for the mother shown that two or three months would have been ample."[50] The legacy of Fitzpatrick himself is coloured by the fact that he was later dismissed from the force for drunkenness and perjury.


** In no way am I suggesting this stuff still happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ned_Kelly

[digger]

No disrespect to you digger. But i guess you weren't expecting that pickles😆

No problems... and sorry Pickles, The Kelly thing ,its a beef with me.. !!

I hope you enjoyed the area, it is beautiful and the story should be told, but really the truth should be told..

Agreed the Kellys may have had a rough trot at the hands of the law, but a point blank execution of 3 police??

I hope my Great grandchildren dont get a cold when they are in Tassie in 100 years doing the Martyn BRYANT trail.....

[Eevo]

but a point blank execution of 3 police??


tactically, its a smart thing to do, remove the guys who are chasing you...

[rangieman]

Im not saying who is right nor wrong but murder is not lawfull or just in any means .
And digger i understand where you are coming from.
But as always there is 2 sides to every story that still may not make murder justified ;)
Once one goes in and reads both sides it does give you a totaly different perspective on the matter.
Im happy to sit on the fence .

[Eevo]

but murder is not lawfull or just in any means.

neither is police harassment.

[Orkney 90]

neither is police harassment.

If they were harassed by the police, there must have been a reason for it. Or was everyone harassed by the police in those days?

[Eevo]

If they were harassed by the police, there must have been a reason for it. Or was everyone harassed by the police in those days?

so harassment is ok if its justified?
who's to say whats justified or not?

[Orkney 90]

so harassment is ok if its justified?
who's to say whats justified or not?

Ask the families of the three dead police officers, and all the other victims of the Kelly gang.

[Eevo]

Ask the families of the three dead police officers, and all the other victims of the Kelly gang.

he (and his family) was harassed before that, so that blows your theory out of the water.

[Greatsouthernland]

... Or was everyone harassed by the police in those days?

No, the police and publicans weren't harrassed...:D


http://prov.vic.gov.au/whats-on/exhibitions/ned-kelly/the-kelly-story/string-bark-creek/kellys-called-on-to-surrender
Public Record Office Victoria
Kellys called on to surrender
VPRS 4969 Consignment P0 Unit 1 Item 61 Record 1 Document: Government Gazette: Kellys called on to surrender

04/11/1878

Overview


Overview

The Felons Apprehension Act mentioned in this formal notice was hastily passed by Parliament on 31 October 1878 upon hearing the news of the Stringy Bark Creek murders five days earlier. The act introduced the concept of outlawry to Australia. Anyone who had a warrant issued against them under this act had the normal protection of law removed. They could be apprehended or shot by any person at any time, and any person offering assistance to them could be gaoled. This latter provision was used to round up numbers of people suspected of sympathising with the Kelly Gang. It is generally felt that the policy backfired, the heavy-handed tactics of the police creating resentment among the small-farming community in the north-east.

The following advertisement is a file copy accompanied by a memo which requests that Sub-Inspector Pewtress of the Mansfield station make himself available in the event that the outlaws did appear to surrender themselves. They did not, and the four members of the gang were declared outlaws on 15 November.

The unprecedented nature of this measure is something Kelly was to turn around in the Jerilderie letter. His final phrase in this letter “for I am a widow’s son outlawed and my orders must be obeyed” offers the outlawry as a bravura badge of status.

Kelly's document was first called the "Jerilderie Letter" by author Max Brown in his 1948 biography of Kelly called Australian Son. Brown included the letter in full in his book and introduced it as an "8,300 word statement I have called The Jerilderie Letter".[22][23]
Description

The Jerilderie Letter is 56 pages long and contains approximately 8000 words. It is written in the first person on notepaper 20.3 x 12.5 cm in size.[24] There is little punctuation and it is not grammatically correct, however it contains very few spelling mistakes.[25][26]

The original letter includes an undated note written by Edwin Living stating that "This is the document given to me by Ned Kelly when the Bank at Jerilderie was stuck up in Feby. 1879".[27][28]
Content

In his document Kelly defends his bushranging actions, condemns the people he believed had wronged him and warns people not to defy him. He begins with the words "Dear Sir, I wish to acquaint you with some of the occurrences of the present past and future ..."[29] and ends with a threat:

I give fair warning to all those who has reason to fear me to sell out and give ?10 out of every hundred towards the widow and orphan fund and do not attempt to reside in Victoria but as short a time as possible after reading this notice, neglect this and abide by the consequences, which shall be worse than the rust in the wheat in Victoria or the druth of a dry season to the grasshoppers in New South Wales I do not wish to give the order full force without giving timely warning but I am a widows son outlawed and my orders must be obeyed.[30]

The Jerilderie Letter has been described as both Kelly's "manifesto" and his "confession".[31][25] In it, Kelly admits to crimes but claims he was forced into becoming a criminal because of police persecution of himself and his family. He also gives his version of the killing of three police officers at Stringybark Creek in Victoria in October 1878, arguing that he shot the men in self-defence: "... this cannot be called wilful murder for I was compelled to shoot them, or lie down and let them shoot me".[32]

Kelly's hatred of the police is evident in the Jerilderie Letter. He outlines cases of alleged police corruption and calls on corrupt policemen to resign. At one point he calls police officers "a parcel of big ugly fat-necked wombat headed big bellied magpie legged narrow hipped splaw-footed sons of Irish Bailiffs or english landlords".[33]

Kelly calls for justice for his family and for other poor Irish families who had settled in the north-east of Victoria.[7] He also demands that squatters share their property and wealth with the poor.[31] The Jerilderie Letter expresses pro-Irish and anti-British attitudes.[27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerilderie_Letter

[Greatsouthernland]

List of people killed or wounded during the Kelly Outbreak
Name Injury Date Explanatory comments
Constable Fitzpatrick wounded 15 April 1878 Policeman, claimed to have been shot by Ned Kelly, but wound was possibly self-inflicted[35]
Sergeant Michael Kennedy shot dead 26 October 1878 Policeman, killed at Stringybark Creek
Constable Scanlan shot dead 26 October 1878 Policeman, killed at Stringybark Creek
Constable Lonigan shot dead 26 October 1878 Policeman, killed at Stringybark Creek
Aaron Sherritt shot dead 26 June 1880 Killed for being a police informer
Martin Cherry shot dead 28 June 1880 Civilian, killed at Glenrowan by police in crossfire[136]
Joe Byrne shot dead 28 June 1880 Kelly gang member, killed at Glenrowan by police
John Jones (aged 11) shot (died) 29 June 1880 Civilian, killed at Glenrowan by police in crossfire[137]
Dan Kelly shot dead or suicide 29 June 1880 Kelly gang member, died at Glenrowan
Steve Hart shot dead or suicide 29 June 1880 Kelly gang member, died at Glenrowan
Charles Champion Rawlins wounded 28 June 1880 Civilian volunteer with police, shot at Glenrowan by Kelly Gang
Michael Reardon (aged 16)[138] maimed for life 28 June 1880 Civilian, son of Mr and Mrs James Reardon, shot at Glenrowan by police[139]
Superintendent Hare wounded 28 June 1880 Policeman, shot at Glenrowan by Kelly Gang
[Name not recorded] wounded 28 June 1880 Aboriginal tracker, shot at Glenrowan by Kelly Gang
Ned Kelly wounded 28 June 1880 Leader of the Kelly gang, shot at Glenrowan by police
Martha Jones (aged 14) wounded 28 June 1880 Civilian, shot at Glenrowan by police in crossfire[137]

Total: Nine dead (three policemen, one informer, three members of the gang, and two bystanders), seven wounded (two policemen, one police volunteer, one native tracker, two bystanders, and Ned Kelly)[140]

[Pickles2]

No problems... and sorry Pickles, The Kelly thing ,its a beef with me.. !!

I hope you enjoyed the area, it is beautiful and the story should be told, but really the truth should be told..

Agreed the Kellys may have had a rough trot at the hands of the law, but a point blank execution of 3 police??

I hope my Great grandchildren dont get a cold when they are in Tassie in 100 years doing the Martyn BRYANT trail.....
No worries Digger, I'm not here to "convince" anyone. We all have our views. There is no doubt that the Kellys were not "white haired boys", and there is also no doubt that the Kellys & their like were harrassed by corrupt Police, just as they had been in Ireland.
So, I'm NOT here to convince anyone.
OF COURSE I went to Mansfield Cemetary to pay my respects, Actually I've been several times.s
BUT, there is one thing that I will say, and that is that "NOBODY" "was executed at point blank range" at Stringybark Creek. That is definitely NOT what happened. Whether or not whatever happened there was "justified" is hard to say. In my view there is never any justification for killing another human being, and yet it happens, and today, people do escape a serious penaly fror serious crimes on the basis of justification.
So, Stringybark Creek. There are two parties of Police out after the Kellys, they are heavily armed, in Civilian clothes, body bags, with the instructions to bring in the Kellys "Dead or Alive". At this stage, the Kellys have shot no-one, unless you can believe Fitzpatrick re Ned's sister's episode. Fitzpatrick was a proven liar, fathered several illegitimate children whom He refused to support, & was forced to marry his pregnant girlfriend by his Police superiors. He was later dismissed for similar reasons.(being dishonest & unreliable)
So, at Stringybark Creek, the Kellys found Sgt Kennedy's Camp. Present were McIntyre & Lonigan. If there was to be any "Execution" it could quite easily have happened then, but it didn't. McIntyre & Lonigan were in the camp, they were called to "Bail Up" McIntyre did so, but Lonigan drew his revolver, & was shot. McInytre was not harmed, He was correctly told that only their weapons were required, Steve Hart & Joe Byre both being armed with sticks at the time. When the other two Police returned,McIntyre requested that Kennedy & Scanlon bail up, that didn't happen, Kennedy went for his revolver, Scanlon went for his rifle but was shot before he could fire. McIntyre escaped. Kennedy escaped into the scrub, firing at his pursuers as he tried to escape, during which He was also wounded. After being chased by Ned, & being wouhded, He turned round to give up, but Ned mistakenlythought He was going to shoot, so shot him. Ned admitted this in Court.
I'm up for any "sensible" discussion,...either way. However, if you wish to compare Ned Kelly & his associates with the likes Bryant & Knight, both of who shot multiple unarmed women & children, repeatedly, then we probably won't get far. Being a Policeman, you would probably be aware that the kellys robbed two banks, and NEVER HARMED A SOUL. There are lots of witmesses that attested to that, even going further & saying how WELL they were treated. In both stages of Stringybark Creek, the Kellys were not the ones to fire the first shot. That is also on record.
With respect to the Kellys & WHY these events happened is probably more to the point as to WHAT happened. So, WHY did they happen?....If anyone is REALLY REALLY interested to see what led up to "the ending", and looking at THE WHOLE STORY, they can start reading,...BOTH sides,...and it'll take you a while!!
There are two signs to many historical scenarios. The Kelly saga is complex, it is also interesting. I have done a reasonable amount of research over maybe 30 yrs, but I am by no means an expert, there are many many that know more than I do.

Pickles.

[rangieman]

And some one else`s veiw from the other side:cool:

jkronborg@nemedia.com.au
November 17, 2015
Categories: Featured Stories, News
Tags: Kelly Gang, Ned Kelly, Sidney Nolan, Thomas Lonigan
Anniversary sparks Kelly verdict doubt
SOLICITOR John Suta argues that Ned Kelly ? hanged 135 years ago in what is now Old Melbourne Gaol ? did not receive a fair trial for the murder of police constable Thomas Lonigan.
A WANGARATTA solicitor has used the 135th anniversary of Ned Kelly's conviction for murder to advance an argument that a competent barrister and the admission of Kelly's ?Jerilderie letter? in court may have led to a different outcome.

The Greta bushranger was hanged 13 days after Melbourne's Supreme Court on October 29, 1880, found him guilty of shooting police constable Thomas Lonigan near Mansfield in October 1878.

Two other policemen died with Lonigan in a shoot-out with the Kelly Gang at Stringybark Creek but Ned Kelly was charged only with Lonigan's murder, although he later admitted in his 1879 ?Jerilderie letter? that he had shot all three.

John Suta, the principal of law firm Nevin Lenne Gross ? who in 2013 secured the repatriation of the executed bushranger's remains for reburial in Greta cemetery and last year paid $177,000 for the last of Sidney Nolan's famed ?Kelly series? paintings ? has questioned the colonial police mission in the Wombat Ranges to capture the gang.

?The evidence is certainly suggestive that the police party (of four) were taking part in organised murder under the colour of office,? Mr Suta has written in a letter to the Chronicle.

?There was more ammunition and guns than prescribed by regulations and the party were carrying body straps capable of bringing bodies out of the bush which, in itself, was sinister.

?They were not in uniform, nor did they carry arrest warrants.?

[Pickles2]

Hello Digger, These were taken at the time of my original post, and after your comment about viewing the graves of the three Policemen (which I have done on MANY occasions)........ I meant to put them up, but forgot, so hopefully better late than never.
I guess you & I will probably always have differing views on this, but whilst I'm interested in the Kelly saga, I am interested in what happened from BOTH sides, and I think that BOTH points of view need to be appreciated, if a true picture of the whole story is to be understood.
So here are the images.
Regards, Pickles.

[Chenz]

I was alway of the opinion that Kelly was a criminal and got his just deserts. Most of reason he and his family attracted police attention was he was a thief and constantly under suspicion for one crime or another.

I read Peter Fitsimmons book which seemed to gloss over a lot of the facts that were raised by Digger and made him out to be a poor misguided hardly done by lad.

As was stated previously, most people had a hard time back then and did not revert to stealing horses and cattle, armed robbery and ambushing and shooting police officers. I agree, if it wasn't for the lump of plough iron around his head he would be just one more crim hung and buried.

Lets also not forget that if it was not for the school teacher escaping and alerting the train driver at Glenrowan, Kelly would have derailed a train full of police officers with many of them being killed or injured. Today we would would call that a terrorist act

[frantic]

I was alway of the opinion that Kelly was a criminal and got his just deserts. Most of reason he and his family attracted police attention was he was a thief and constantly under suspicion for one crime or another.

I read Peter Fitsimmons book which seemed to gloss over a lot of the facts that were raised by Digger and made him out to be a poor misguided hardly done by lad.

As was stated previously, most people had a hard time back then and did not revert to stealing horses and cattle, armed robbery and ambushing and shooting police officers. I agree, if it wasn't for the lump of plough iron around his head he would be just one more crim hung and buried.

Lets also not forget that if it was not for the school teacher escaping and alerting the train driver at Glenrowan, Kelly would have derailed a train full of police officers with many of them being killed or injured. Today we would would call that a terrorist act

No, a terrorist act would be if he was going to derail and kill all aboard a passenger train. An act of war is when you target the opposing troops;)
Now to me a train full of govt reps with rifles and pistols are troops, not normal police on the beat.
As has already been said the 3 cops who died where sent to kill kelly, without any warrant, in plain clothes. Now what would you call that today? 4 police , heavily armed , in plain clothes , sent with specific instructions to kill several members of a group who had done minor crimes to that point?

[Eevo]

Unlawful

[gruntfuttock]

We will never know what was the EXACT and real truth from BOTH sides.
The Kellys did wrong and broke the law, FACT.
Were the Police at the time totally blameless in all respects and did they conduct themselves, in all honesty within the spirit and word of the law? No they did not.
There were things done on BOTH sides that should not have been. FACT.

People here have there on opinions whether or not the the kellys were persecuted; however when one of the descendants of one of the members of the kelly gang gave a watch that was taken back to the original family they thought they were doing the right thing, only to find the person who received the watch wanted them charged with receiving and handling stolen goods. :confused::confused: I do not know how far this went or if it was acted upon but you would think that a simple "thank you" would have been in order.

My personal views are exactly that MY personal views and they will not be stated here.


Note: I will not respond to any correspondence on this.

[Disco Muppet]

I think that's spot on G. Not black nor white, but a shade of grey.
And as for this...


when one of the descendants of one of the members of the kelly gang gave a watch that was taken back to the original family they thought they were doing the right thing, only to find the person who received the watch wanted them charged with receiving and handling stolen goods. :confused::confused: I do not know how far this went or if it was acted upon but you would think that a simple "thank you" would have been in order.


I believe the correct technical term for such a person is 'arsehole'.
Any honest act or gesture of an apologetic nature should be received in similar spirit, talk about milking it....


Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

Like I've said, Ya've gotta look at both sides.
I have my views, some agree with 'em some don't. If someone is prepared to listen to mine, I'm ALWAYS prepared to listen to theirs........and if I am prepared to first listen to someone elses view, then I would expect them to listen but for sure not necessarily agree with, mine.
All sorts of views, ....just look at the differing views on this Forum,...the subject is massive, as are the views. Ya can strike up a conversation just about anywhere, as I have, about "The Kellys", & someone will have a view.
I was at a Wycheproof Hotel a few years ago, talking to someone about it, and another guy came over who'd heard us talking, and He joined in,...all good!
Pickles.

[gruntfuttock]

Interestingly I did a job for a bloke who was a relative of the K's and he only just retired permanently from the Federal Police at the time did undercover work mostly. He did tell me a lot more but that is all I am going to say. (Still sleeps with a gun under his pillow). He showed me his driver licences all under different names all legit, credit cards etc. When I asked if he told them he was related, he just said no, way to many one sided arguments, generally doesn't tell anyone he is related.

[Pickles2]

Interestingly I did a job for a bloke who was a relative of the K's and he only just retired permanently from the Federal Police at the time did undercover work mostly. He did tell me a lot more but that is all I am going to say. (Still sleeps with a gun under his pillow). He showed me his driver licences all under different names all legit, credit cards etc. When I asked if he told them he was related, he just said no, way to many one sided arguments, generally doesn't tell anyone he is related.
"All I am going to say"???...(I presume you are speaking about the Kellys?)......well then mate, why say anything??.....Big secrets, about the Kellys,????!!!!.....after 135yrs??.....Wow.
I've spoken to plenty of people, some Kelly relos, some Police,...never had any issues with anything,...like I said, disagreement is something one expects when the subject of Ned kelly is raised, and that is NEVER a problem with me on this subject,.....in fact, I enjoy it.
I absolutely LOVE a good discussion, so on this subject inparticular, the more the merrier, & the more opinions the better, IMHO of course.Pickles.

[Roverlord off road spares]

"All I am going to say"???...(I presume you are speaking about the Kellys?)......well then mate, why say anything??.....Big secrets, about the Kellys,????!!!!.....after 135yrs??.....Wow.
I've spoken to plenty of people, some Kelly relos, some Police,...never had any issues with anything,...like I said, disagreement is something one expects when the subject of Ned kelly is raised, and that is NEVER a problem with me on this subject,.....in fact, I enjoy it.
I absolutely LOVE a good discussion, so on this subject inparticular, the more the merrier, & the more opinions the better, IMHO of course.Pickles.
Pickles, one could say the same about the Eureka Stockade, Lalor was a hero, but in fact he went against the law at the time and rebelled against authority. He could also be said to have been a criminal. Just a thought