Generator Stats

[gavinwibrow]

There is a wider issue here, but I'm initially trying to ascertain if my Honda 20i Generator can start my supposedly soft start style caravan a/c (IBIS Something 3).

Apparently "The ibis 3 will need 3300 watts to start the compressor (only requires this for a brief second) and 1300 to have the cooling cycle run, if your generator can operate with these outputs then yes."

My Honda states it has 1600W continuous or 2000W short term capacity, and my a/c needs 3.1 KW for cooling and up to 5.8A at startup. Heating options are slightly less power hungry. I've been told that there is no simple answer and every appliance is different and to check microwave etc as well.

1 I suspect I'm in trouble.

2 What happens if the genny is overloaded for that small interval during startup - does it just stall, or cough and then work substandard or otherwise or? I guess there is the potential for some significant damage too.

3 Or I can buy a second/run in conjunction Honda 20i - not cheap, or a stand alone petrol larger version - ditto.

4 What I need apparently is about a 4-5KVA diesel generator that is light and quiet!!!!! Does such a serviceable, reliable, reasonably priced animal exist?

[weeds]

I believe you can parallel two Hondas these days.....hang on that might be in series

[gavinwibrow]

G'day Kelvin. Yep, you can, and I have the Honda wiring, but I would still need to purchase a 2nd identical generator

[LandyAndy]

Gavin I have the 20eu Honda too.
Graz got one for his Kimberly Karavan and found it wouldnt start the aircon unit.
Pretty sure he got the next size in the Yamaha(2400???) and it does the job.Shoot him a PM for more info as he doesnt visit regularly.
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

it might but you need to have it off of the eco setting on the generator and if your AC unit has it you need to enable the ECO setting on startup or force the low power startup options as the default power on state or it wont. some inverter drive gear doesnt like being driven off of inverter produced AC so you will also want the genny warmed up a little

Depending on how the AC unit handles its refrigerant pumping for cooling, if it does the slow down but not stop the compressor thing then once you have the AC up and running you can flick the generator back to eco mode. If it cycles the pump on and off then you should probably leave the genny off eco mode. you

inverter generators dont stall, they just shut down the inverter until the overload is removed. Depending on how they are setup they will drive as hard as they can for as long as they can until one of 3 things occur

1. the inverter over heats in which case it shuts down all output until the inverter cools
2. they will keep trying to hang on until the voltage or frequency (usually voltage) drops off below spec because the engine cant produce enough go to get things started when the inverter will cut out, engine RPMs will come up and the inverter will have another go. (this is the one that will sometimes get the load to start after 4-5 "bumps" and then keep it running)
3. they just shut down and wont do didly till you manually do something to reset the generator

paralleling does not have to be done from 2 of the same size generator and in some cases not even the same brand(although you should) BUT you must draw the 240v from the larger of the 2 units. you might get away with having the 20 as the main runner and a 10 to give it the edge to get the AC running. The 10's come up on ebay semi regularly when people expand their power demands and the 10 just wont cut it on its own.

[Fluids]

EU20i is rated 2000w MAX (approx' 20-30min duty cycle).

1600w continuous ... All day every day.

It will go 50% over current 1 - 3sec for motor starting duty. (3000w or 12.5a)

Rated MAX current is 8.33 amps (2000w / 240v = 8.33a)

It's likley the EU20i will start it, but like Blknight said, with Eco OFF so generator is at Max' speed for a fast reaction time. With Eco ON it will take to long to ramp up to a speed where it can deliver the demanded load.

If you overload an EU20i the inverter will disconnect the output. Engine will continue to run, but no power is generated. Stop/restart to reset the inverter. The unit has enough smarts to recognize when enough is enough and will shut off supply to protect itself.

Yes, you can parallel link 2x EU20i's for a total of 4000w Max (double the figures quoted above), and it's likley that 2x parallel linked would handle the starting load when both are running in Eco ON mode ....

A more elegant solution would be the EU30iu Handy ... Not cheap though.

The EU20i is currently available with a $150 cash back from Honda Australia (until 31/12/15).

I'm a Honda Power Equipment Dealer and sell these. Shameless plug ;)

So far, I've not met a microwave in a van or RV that the EU20i won't operate ... As long as the A/C isn't running at the same time ... Or other fat arsed loads like a 50a battery charger, etc ...

The best type of A/C to marry up with a Honda EU generator is an inverter style A/C. Soft start, never cycles the compressor off, just reduces the speed it runs at, giving a corresponding reduction in the revs the Honda EU generator is doing. Cyclic ON/OFF style compressors are the hardest to cope with due to the huge starting (ON) loads required.

As far as a diesel unit with the spec' you outlined .... NEXT! :p

Hope that helps.

[pibby]

EU20i is rated 2000w MAX (approx' 20-30min duty cycle).

1600w continuous ... All day every day.

It will go 50% over current 1 - 3sec for motor starting duty. (3000w or 12.5a)

Rated MAX current is 8.33 amps (2000w / 240v = 8.33a)

It's likley the EU20i will start it, but like Blknight said, with Eco OFF so generator is at Max' speed for a fast reaction time. With Eco ON it will take to long to ramp up to a speed where it can deliver the demanded load.

If you overload an EU20i the inverter will disconnect the output. Engine will continue to run, but no power is generated. Stop/restart to reset the inverter. The unit has enough smarts to recognize when enough is enough and will shut off supply to protect itself.

Yes, you can parallel link 2x EU20i's for a total of 4000w Max (double the figures quoted above), and it's likley that 2x parallel linked would handle the starting load when both are running in Eco ON mode ....

A more elegant solution would be the EU30iu Handy ... Not cheap though.

The EU20i is currently available with a $150 cash back from Honda Australia (until 31/12/15).

I'm a Honda Power Equipment Dealer and sell these. Shameless plug ;)

So far, I've not met a microwave in a van or RV that the EU20i won't operate ... As long as the A/C isn't running at the same time ... Or other fat arsed loads like a 50a battery charger, etc ...

The best type of A/C to marry up with a Honda EU generator is an inverter style A/C. Soft start, never cycles the compressor off, just reduces the speed it runs at, giving a corresponding reduction in the revs the Honda EU generator is doing. Cyclic ON/OFF style compressors are the hardest to cope with due to the huge starting (ON) loads required.

As far as a diesel unit with the spec' you outlined .... NEXT! :p

Hope that helps.

i bought one of these honda EU20i gennys couple weeks ago. was advised it would peak to 3600w at start up and to have eco off. my uncle has one of these so prior to purchase i pulled out my 9inch metabo 2500w angle grinder and it didn't have any probs starting that. for other stuff i've got a bigger generator.

fluids - do you know why they reduced the tank size in the current model? would have preferred the larger tank.

brett.

[Blknight.aus]

four terms that need to be watched and understood, especially around some salesmen.

Peak, this is the amount of power the generator can provide typically only for a fraction of a second nominally its usually in the vicinity of 2x the rated power of the unit or 1.5 times the maximum power of the unit.

Surge, this is usually what the generator can deliver for a few seconds its typically around 1.5x rated or 1.2x max This is the number that you want whatever the startup current of things to be under.

Maximum, this is what the generator will produce for minutes to hours at a time but will usually compromise one of the other marketable factors of the generator such as noise or fuel consumption.

Rated, this is what the generator was designed to produce and deliver all the other fun numbers on

Whats it mean when you look at a generator.

Ideally Rated and maximum should be close together, if they are then the unit is likely to be quite robust and long lifed, generally the closer rated and maximum are the higher the peak and surge values will be.

Surge, this will usually have a nominated time factor longer is better, shorter surge times typically indicate that the engine is the limiting factor on the design of the generator and longer ones indicate its the electricals. the short surge times on the EU series and the fact that you can parallel them to draw more power out of one unit demonstrate that in the EU its the motor thats the limiter. In my old school clunker generator that is plated for a maximum of 2400w but happily dumps 3200w for (in cold climates) half an hour at a time until the thermal overload trips isnt limited by the engine, its the alternator. (the other indicator is its a 9hp engine which in a perfect world should be able to deliver 5000w+)

peak. This is almost always electrically limited and in most cases its not because the overall number of watts cant be maintained but because the voltage and "shape" of the power falls off. in an old school clunker driving a pure resistive load or starting up something with "dumb" electricals like an air compressor you might well be able to tolerate having the power quality fall off during the initial high power start up phase so long as the running power is somewhere that the generator can deliver. I was always impressed when one of those cheap and nasty $90 800w generators from bunnings would get into trying to start my old 2 hp compressor, the compressor would click in the generator would bog down the compressor would slowly start to turn and then gradually everything would speed up of course trying to get the compressor to start against a half tank never happened.

[Fluids]

i bought one of these honda EU20i gennys couple weeks ago. was advised it would peak to 3600w at start up and to have eco off. my uncle has one of these so prior to purchase i pulled out my 9inch metabo 2500w angle grinder and it didn't have any probs starting that. for other stuff i've got a bigger generator.

fluids - do you know why they reduced the tank size in the current model? would have preferred the larger tank.

brett.

Hi Brett.

3600w peak ... I'd never apply or recommend an EU20i for a peak start up supply of 3600w. That is outside it's spec.

The 2500w Metabo ... It's a brushed motor, not and inductive motor. Has very little startup requirement over it's rated power. It may start and run on 2000w BUT sink the disc into some steel and see how long the generator can hold it's druthers while the grinder is under a heavy load .... Light grinding will work, but as soon as you load it up heavily it's a different story. The generator will only "deliver" what the appliance "asks" of it .... More load on the appliance, the more it "asks" for. I can run our 550w bench grinder on an EU10i. If I load it up heavily and can cause the EU10i to go out on fault. In comparison, the Chinese Kippor (yellow) 1000w units which are Honda copies, won't even start the bench grinder unless I on/off the grinders power switch and progressively ramp up the grinder to full speed .... As soon as you apply even a small load to the grinder, the Kippor goes out on fault.

To the best of my knowledge, the tank size has always been 4.1-4.2L. I just checked my workshop DVD and it says 4.1L.

My parts DVD shows 3x variants of the EU20i. The EU20i, the EU20iK1, and the EU20iT1 .... The part number for the fuel tank for all 3 is the same.

Rechecking the workshop manual for the EU20iT1 there's a supplement. It does indeed show the EU20iT1 fuel tank capacity as 3.6L .... But the tank part number has not changed.

Here is what I believe is the situation. The strainer assy that's inserted into the tank filler, has a red level band indicating the maximum fill level ... The early EU20i had a different strainer ... Same tanks, different recommended fill level ... They are again, the same tank/part number. The parts DVD shows 2x different filler strainers.

FWIW the rated EU20i output is stated as 2000VA - thats 2000 Volts x Amps - 240 x 8.33 = 2000VA or 2000W MAX
Continuous is shown as 1600VA - that's 1600 = 240v x 6.7a
It's a basic Power = Volts x Amps .... VA = Volts x Amps .... Or more commonly revered to as P = ExI


Hope that helps.

[pibby]

thanks kev.

[gavinwibrow]

Why am I not continually surprised by the excellent info and advice provided with such graciousness on this site - you guys are awesome!! Cheers Gavin

[austastar]

Hi,
Yep! University of life.

Cheers

[Rok_Dr]

Kev, Dave

That's some really great info and being an Eu2i and caravan owner most useful.

Many thanks

Steve

[LandyAndy]

Gavin.
I was thinking today.
Are you having solar on the van???
If so an inverter/solarpanel controller may be the answer.
The solar/battery could provide the extra juice needed to start the aircon,the Honda can be powering into the inverter.
See this thread,get onto Dylan for his version.He says there is a Perth supplier.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/225923-combined-solar-controller-inverter-system.html
Andrew

[Blknight.aus]

the reason behind the tank capacity change is the ullage space... I blame the americans (but then I always do when the circumstances dictate that the solution should be removing the warning signs and letting darwin square it up) people were over filling the tank, putting the cap on on a hot generator, by the time they closed up the fuel can, moved it away and went to restart if the tank was overfilled the heat from the genny would expand the fuel so much it would exit the vent as a liquid and then kerflammo. Made worse by fools that run the generator in a semi enclosed space like a box on an aframe or an enclosure built into the van.

From memory the strainer in the filler also changed so that there is less strainer and more solid plastic further down from the top.


just to complicate matters its not just the wattsX amps that come into the count its also the power factor. If your AC has a power factor thats near .7 or .8 you might be able to get a clever sparky to sit down punch some maths and build a power factor correction box that sits on the main feed for the AC unit that only kicks in on startup of the unit. (assuming its inverter drive and once started it never stops the compressor just ramps it up and down) OR if its an older start/stop setup change the start capacitors and shunting so that the PF on the motor during startup is nearer to 1. Ideally in a perfect world you could set that up so that the PF of 1 was achieved on the motor during start up and running (really good thinking would be to do it to the blower fan motors as well)

one last thing that might just save you enough ergs to get the compressor to start is to put delay timers on the fan motors of the condenser and the evaporator, a 3 second delay on the start of the higher draw motor of those 2 and a 5 second delay on the lessor (if they are the same start the condenser first and the evaporator second) and that will give you a staged start as opposed to dumping a massive bunch of inductive load onto the generator at once. one last trick is to add weight to the blower fan of the condensor, start it first, let it get up to speed and then dump the compressor online, as the voltage and frequency drop down the inertia stored in the fan will turn the motor into an generator very briefly and that will help pull the compressor over. of course this wont work if you've only got shaded pole motors driving the fans.

[gavinwibrow]

Dave, you need someone to financially jumpstart you with this (and probably many others of your solutions).
I have been doing a little research (always dangerous) and it transpires that virtually no caravan a/c in Oz are yet inverter - there have been some split systems utilised for vans that don't do heavy off road stuff.
There is money to be made marrying the smaller Honda type pure sine wave generators to service off road particularly caravan a/c and other electronics without having to go megasize

[Blknight.aus]

get the covers of your gear and post pics of whats in there, ditto the data plates

I'd just about be willing to bet that between me and my old man at Xmas we can get your honda to start and run your AC...

how hack free the end result appears to be depends on your budget.

it also depends on how much AC you want...

why not ditch the big one and mount up one of the portable ones that draw much less current?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

and while not glamorous,, a curtain mid van would cut the air space dramatically.
we have one to separate/darken the beds from the living area. Not an aircon requirement, our old Air Command Wren was installed in '91(yes we have the invoice!) and still freezes our butts off! mind you the surrounding area goes dim when it starts up:lol2: