Advice needed.....electric seat controls

[carnut]

Hey fellas, I'm just mucking around with the driver's seat on my LSE. I read in another thread that if you jiggle the control switches sometimes you can get a non-functioning seat to work.....I tried it but had no luck.
So I got a battery, a couple of lengths of electrical wire and pulled the plug to the bank of motors for the seat. I managed to confirm that all the motors work ok, so I'm thinking it's gotta be that horrible switch that I've read about.
So I've pulled the seat out to get at the two screws that hold the switch panel to the seat, disconnected the switch loom, pulled it out through the side of the seat, and now I have the switch panel out of the car to pull apart for inspection/cleaning etc.
Here's the question.......can anyone tell me how to get the thing APART, lol!! I can see that the top pops off the housing, but the switch toggles are keeping me from removing the top of the housing. I don't want to prise the toggles too hard in case they're not supposed to be removed......
Any tips??:confused:

[PhilipA]

AFAIR you prise out the rockers and then be prepared for several springs and ball bearings to pop out all over the place.

AFAIR, the switches are the same as Mercedes switches of that era.

The non operation is usually caused by grease and grime blocking the contacts and you may be able to get them to work by spraying lots of electrical contact cleaner through them.
Regards Philip A

[gavinwibrow]

Phillip, did you mean trying to run cleaner through the switches etc prior to popping and distributing bits all around the country, or is that not possible? I'm about to look closely at mine (which I haven't done yet, hence the question). Cheers Gavin

[carnut]

G'day fellas,
Thankyou Phil, your advice was very helpful! I managed to get the switch casing apart with breaking anything OR losing any of the tiny springs and balls inside:o!!
Miracles DO happen:D!!
I'll post a photo of the inside of the switch to show where everything goes immediately prior to putting the switch back together.....

Just as you said, Phil, the tops of the switches prise off the tops of the switch posts to allow the top of the switch housing to be separated from the body. Once that's off, you can see inside to two philips head screw that undo to allow the switch assembly to be removed from the body of the switch housing. Working through the underside of the outer housing, under the switch, you have to use a flat bladed screwdriver to gently lever the switch up through the top of the housing as the switch is a push fit over the posts that the two philips head screws go into.

[carnut]

Unfortunately, my switch turned out to be quite clean inside. I pulled it all apart anyway, and cleaned all the brass contacts just to be sure, and pulled the "1", "2", and green buttons out as they were a bit gummed up and not moving freely.
I put it all together and tested it on the seat.......nothing:(.
I found the relays for the front seats.....swapped them over as the left seat works fine. Still nothing:(. I checked the square 4 pin plug for power.....yep, the relay is definitely getting power as far as the plug.
I'm now thinking that the silver box mounted up under the driver's seat is some sort of control box that stores the settings for the memory functions. Would that be correct?:confused:
Are these known to fail, or perhaps partially fail, and render one seat inoperative?
Cheers
Steve

[PhilipA]

Yes , although I have never had one with power seats I understand there is a battery in there that dies and corrodes the circuit board.

There have been some AULRO posts on this in years past.
Regards Philip A
Here is one
94 Classic LSE seat computer , Google that term

[carnut]

Bingo!! Now I'm getting somewhere:).
Yes, Philip.....I keep forgetting how wonderful google can be:D. How did we EVER get by without it:D!!
I found a thread on this site, and I also found a page from the UK where the guy details exactly the problem you mention.
This morning I had no idea that there was an ECU for the seats, lol. So I pulled mine out and opened it up and bingo.....there's a problem, if not THE problem:). The NiCad battery has let go, pickling a few bits and bobs around it. The guy from the UK page says that you can replace the battery with a NiMh, replace any damaged components in the vicinity and off you go:).
That sure beats shelling out something like A$1800 for a brand new one:o

[DoubleChevron]

Wow the circuit is completely burnt away. Your going to need a picture of an undamaged one to re-create the wiring from (just run fine wires to re-crreate the burnt away tracks). Throw the battery away. if you loose the seat memories each time the battery is disconnect ed ........................ What cares :wasntme:

seeya,
Shane L.

[carnut]

I just had a look on line....the NiMh batteries are only about $30. I dare say I'd be able to get one at Jaycar, as well as any components that have been fried.
I googled PC Board repairs in the Brisbane area and came up with one that's recommended, so I'll give them a call tomorrow and see what they say. I might have to wait until the New Year to be able to contact them but that's not a problem:).
I'm optimistic that there's a way to restore full functionality, even if it means sourcing a unit that's not so badly damaged, and then getting the NiMh battery replacement done to extend the life of it. Looking at the one I've got, there are possibly 3 fried chips, a few resistors (?) and then the damage to the tracks.
Either way, it seems I've found the source of the problem:).

[superquag]

Gos 'News' for you...and it ain't all good...

The seat ECU also drives/remembers the outside mirrors,and I think (don't quote me) the mirrors need the box of Clever Bits in order to work...even if it's only a 'pass-through' function.

Do your mirrors work with the box unplugged ? :angel:

The battery is, or at least was available ex UK, and I ordered one for myself and SomeOne else. It was also a larger capacity (mA/hours) than OEM, but its not a problem.
That was years ago, so I've no idea where it was from.

By the look of the tracks, fitting the battery will be the least of your worries.!

- Get yourself a decent soldering iron, and TINNED copper wire in suitable gauges... great project for a rainy week-end. :eek:

Those switches are near identical mechanisms to ones MB used on some models, but the Kunning Krauts mount theirs up high on the door cards, out of harm's way and dirt/dust/food particles.

The other teensy-weensy thing about the switches is... look closely at the mechanical forces/strains/directions vs 'springs & resistance' to movement... Whoever invented the setup was only just out of Design School... They are destined to eventually wear excessively and break or fail....:mad:

Worst case..... make up your own switches and put them where YOU find them most convenient. I could suggest the 'fore-aft' switch mounted under the squab on the front, and the seat-back front/back leaning switch on the door card or 'elsewhere'.
Where they are mounted now is... exactly what they look like...a last-minute "... ??????"
- so they tacked it on the side of the seat.... Great place if you or your passenger is... broad in the beam... Don't ask !

Join the dots !:eek::eek::eek:

Edit:- While everything is out, take the oppurtunity to 101% clean/lube the tracks and cogs etc. Even so, its rough as guts... not a patch on oriental or yankee cars for smoothness and silence.

[carnut]

Hi Superquag, yes the batteries are available on the UK fleabay site, plenty of sellers. The chips are, it seems, readily available too. The parts will not be the challenge.......repairing the printed circuit will be the challenge;).
I agree.....the switch placement does look like a bit of an afterthought, lol, but I'll be putting them back where they were for the sake of originality. Also, I'd rather not have the gaping holes visible in the sides of the seats where they mount.....
I've read on another forum (found it on google:)) that there is an electronics shop that comes highly recommended for fixing items that the OEMs have refused to take on.
The switch gear was tricky to pull apart and clean, but PhilipA gave me a heads-up on how to remove the toggles, as well as fore-warning me about all the tiny springs and balls inside:D. That was a huge help, so thanks again, Philip! I didn't lose any parts and, with the aid of a pair of tweezers and a steady hand, I didn't have too much trouble getting it all back together. The toggles all work as I would expect them to, with what I would deem to be adequate and even resistance to movement, as well as ready willingness to return to their centres of movement. All the brass parts inside were in very good order, as were the spring and balls.
With regard to the mirrors......well they don't work with the ECU installed:(. I guess they wouldn't work without it either. :confused:
The passenger seat works ok.......it IS notchy, as you say. Could definitely do with a bit of TLC to see if I can get it to move a bit smoother. My LTD, by comparison, is super smooth and very quiet in the operation of the seats. The difference is quite remarkable. The switches for the LTD (incidentally) are also very low on the sides of the seats, but they've never given an ounce of trouble.
I must say, I'm moderately impressed that the mirrors are included in the memory function for the LSE......given that my cars only ever get driven by me, I see it as a pretty frivolous feature, but impressive all the same:D.....

[carnut]

Well, I emailed Classic LSE in the UK.

Got a nice lengthy reply from a very helpful bloke called Graeme:). He detailed the recommended checks before installing another seat ECU, and also said that they can basically supply pretty much any part I need if I'm brave enough to have a go at repairing mine. I sent him a couple of photos and he said it's probably "doable" but that it's definitely at the extreme end of what they would normally consider repairing. There are a couple of bits that have been fried that he's never seen fried before:D!!! So yeah, the seat ECU will take a good bit of work to repair. The biggest challenge that he sees is repairing damaged circuit traces under/around the chips. I have a wet bead blasting machine which I normally just use for cleaning up alloy parts, but if I wind the intensity right down, I can actually very delicately remove the protective varnish from the PCB in the area that I need to repair. That might make things alot easier than they would otherwise be. I've seen what they call a "conductive pen" that is specifically made for this sort of work, so if I can get hold of one of those then I might be in with a chance. They're only about $35 on fleabay. Man....is there anything ya CAN'T get on fleabay:confused::D??
So yeah, I think I'll have a crack at this when time permits. It's not like I have anything to lose;). And gees it'd be a thrill if I managed to actually FIX it:o!!!

[Bradtot]

Hey Carnut first use iso alcohol on the board flood it and then with a toothbrush clean as much as you can. Secondly if you can get you hands on one use an ultrasonic cleaner and clean the board with that. Immerse it completely in water and detergent. The ultra sonic cleaners you get at hobby shops will be to small so you need to beg borrow or steal one big enough. I don't think the conductive pen will work, best you use small tinned wire or what I have done in the past is to cut the leads of small components and bend them to shape same as the circuit board track. You will need to remove as much black(carbon) as you can as this will conduct if not removed. Scrape it away as much as you can. Then if you are successful in it working coat the board with araldite to strengthen and stop short circuits.
I used to repair this type of electronic boards for a living, some worked some did not.
A schematic diagram would be helpful when doing the repairs as well.
Good luck
Brad:):)

[Lockee]

Might have to send you mine to repair :D

[superquag]

For what it might be worth, I've got a handful of PCB pics from when I did the ECU- battery changeover in Sarah. You're welcome to them, - PM me with an email addy and I'll send the high(er) res versions over.

Memory is returning... battery WAS bought on UK evilbay, price must have been OK.

Cheers

James

[carnut]

Hi fellas,
Thanks for you're advice and thanks James, too, for the offer of those photos. I am going to try and get a chance to put the PCB in my wet glass bead blaster tomorrow, and clean the blackened mess off with that. It should also remove the protective coating from the circuit. I'll mask the areas so that I only remove the coating from where I need to remove components. The araldite idea sounds like a great one for re-coating afterwards:). With so much else to do, I think this may take me a little while, but I'll post updates as I go:)
Cheers
Steve

[superquag]

I'd suggest you take lots and lots of pics of the board BEFORE you blast it... I'd be worried about damaging the finer tracks.
I'd use either a dissolving agent for the coating... or something like a #23 scalpel blade (rounded sharp edge for broader scrapes) to scrape it off where you need to re-solder bridging wires etc.

Once again, you only need (?) to remove the protective lacquer WHERE you need to solder, unless you plan on using a paint-on track repair/replace.

[carnut]

Hmmmmm.....I put the PCB in the wet bead blaster and it cleaned the black mess off quite nicely. The problem is that the board has gotten SO HOT that it's burnt a hole clean through it:(.
Might be time to get another board that's not as badly damaged. I'll get myself a better soldering iron from Jaycar tomorrow, and have a go at pulling a few of the fried components out of this board, and maybe give the other side a bit of a clean with the blaster just to see what's left of it afterwards, lol......:). I've got nothing to lose:angel:
Here are some before and after cleaning shots........

[Justinb]

I have a ECU that isn't being used as I've decided to convert mine to toggle switches. The circuit board is corroded but I don't think as badly as yours and one of the switches was completely destroyed by a portly PO . I'll have look.

Justin

[Lockee]

I have a ECU that isn't being used as I've decided to convert mine to toggle switches. The circuit board is corroded but I don't think as badly as yours and one of the switches was completely destroyed by a portly PO . I'll have look.

Justin

That might be a plan

[carnut]

I have a ECU that isn't being used as I've decided to convert mine to toggle switches. The circuit board is corroded but I don't think as badly as yours and one of the switches was completely destroyed by a portly PO . I'll have look.

Justin

Hi Justin, that could be handy:). Thankyou for that....I'll PM you my contact details and we can have a chat about it if you like:)
Cheers
Steve

[theMISSIONARY]

do the manual seat base from a similar model fit the base of the vogue? and the leather seat fit the manual base?

[superquag]

.. I like your thinking....

IMHO, the fabric-covered Classic seat is better value and comfort throughout the year than the leather one.
If you wear shorts in summer...and park your leather seats in the sun.... you might agree.:angel:

Mine has rotten stitching on one squab, and the piping along the driver's side front AND rear seats, (where the sun comes in all day, with the PO) is wrinkled and distorted. The driver's seat is, in places, badly sun-damaged Fabric is not affected like this...

Bear in mind, that a century ago, leather was the cheap material.... in Luxury barges, the chauffeur sat on the durable leather, and M'Lord & Lady were graced with more comfortable fabric (wool usually) upholstery...

Vinyl as the cheapest material of all became popular for mass production, and for 'perceived' luxury, cloth inserts became the rage. This could be man-made, or wool/wool-blend.

The return to leather is a marketing ploy, something different or "new" , IMHO...:angel::angel::angel:

The Lady Sarah, 95 Vogue SE with working EAS, and leather seats. Don't mention the sun-roof..:(

[theMISSIONARY]

i like the leather...eve when i am wearing shorts ;)

i notice one of the local wreckers has a 1990 rrc with the manual adjusting basses so i thought i might get them for mine(91 se) as the circuit board looks to be a pain to fix

[superquag]

Yes... You live in the North Antarctic Island... where the sun rarely visits.... Try it over here and if you don't change your tune....the pitch certainly will... :D
- I like my leather in winter/spring/autumn... especially winter, as the leaking sun-roof doesn't leave watermarks as it would on fabric...:angel:

Can't see any reason why they would not fit. IMHO, manual adjusting seats are as good/better when the number and fussiness of the drivers is limited... - You may find some difficulties with the seat-back (rake) adjustment, but there is no reason why you could'nt rig up a manual switching thingie for that alone
Even when spotlessly cleaned/lubricated, the fore-aft travel 'roughness' on my side is not impressive... slow and jerky... Not a patch on the Wife's Magna (late model, brilliant seats) or the Father-In Law's Ssang-Yong MUSSO !

[theMISSIONARY]

live in SA and Kalgoorlie for some years the RRC is from SA and yes i know the pain but...i ...love leather :angel::twisted: it was 34 here today so its plenty hot enough for tassy

no sunroof leaks on mine as yet.

i'll have to see how much $$$ they will want for the seat bases