Oil colour after service?

[cafe latte]

I know on an old Toyota or something the oil is always dirty, but I expected the oil after the service to be clean on my New Puma engine Defender. I got a warranty repair on the rear door and I had only done 12,000km. The oil was just starting to get dirty looking and I though I would get a service done at the same time. I just check my oil and it is black as before, has the oil been changed?
I just rang the dealer and they tell me the oil has for sure been changed, but to be honest I am not so sure.
Any thoughts
Chris

[Tank]

Did they change the oil filter? if not demand they do it again with a filter change.
On the other hand it is near impossible to get all of the old oil out and it will turn the new oil black pretty quick, oils job is to pick up carbon (soot) particles and deposit them in the filter, the oil should be black when changed if it is still clean it's not doing it's job, Regards Frank.

[Beery]

Fresh oil in a fairly new puma should be so clean that you can hardly see it on the dipstick. Mine stays that way for the first thousand or so kilometres. Is your EGR switched off?

[cafe latte]

I was under the impression that the Puma motor was very clean for a diesel so I expected clean oil after a service. The filter should have been changed I will go and check.
Chris

[AlecW]

Thats a little strange,

After I change the oil in my 300tdi it stays clear as Beery mentioned for at least 2000kms. After that it colours up a bit but doesnt go black.

Obv different engine but I would think the Puma's engine would be a little tidier than that for the low kms you have. I had a Peugeot 407 2ltr HDI and it would be black after a service though. Is it a little translucent still or jet black?

[cafe latte]

Fresh oil in a fairly new puma should be so clean that you can hardly see it on the dipstick. Mine stays that way for the first thousand or so kilometres. Is your EGR switched off?

No not yet I was waiting for the warranty to finish first. The oil took 12 thousand km to get dirty I would have expected it to be squeeky clean for at least the next 2-3 thousand km, but this looks like it did before. I am having trouble believing it is new oil.
I will go and pic of the dipstick.
Cheers
Chris

[cafe latte]

Can this really be fresh oil?
Chris

[DiscoMick]

Did they change the oil filter? If not the old oil in the filter could have discoloured the new oil, I suppose.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[1nando]

45000kms on mine and oil is always clean and clear........must be becuase i change my oil every 5000kms.;)

As others have mentioned check oil filter, might be worth examining the viscosity of the oil aswell.

[cafe latte]

Did they change the oil filter? If not the old oil in the filter could have discoloured the new oil, I suppose.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

It is on my bill so apparently they did it, but how can the oil look exactly the same as it did after 12,000km? My Defender has only done 12,000km from new so it is not an old sooty engine and I basically did the service 8,000km early which is why I am having difficulty believing that is new oil especially as I have a bill for a new filter too.
Chris

[Toxic_Avenger]

So do we know if the engine needs to have the factory oil in it for the first however many K's to assist break-in?
What service were you billed for (A or B )?
What's the service log book recommend for the first 10,000 or 15,000 Km?

[Tank]

45000kms on mine and oil is always clean and clear........must be becuase i change my oil every 5000kms.;)

As others have mentioned check oil filter, might be worth examining the viscosity of the oil aswell.
Total waste of oil, and no way do I believe that your oil is till clear after 5000klm, Regards frank.

[AlecW]

The oil still looks in good nic tbh but I reckon oil filter part was skipped...

[cafe latte]

So do we know if the engine needs to have the factory oil in it for the first however many K's to assist break-in?
What service were you billed for (A or B )?
What's the service log book recommend for the first 10,000 or 15,000 Km?

This is my 20,000km service (first real service), I had a check for free at 6,000km but no oil change. I dont think there was any special oil for break in at least not that I am aware of. I did the service way early at 12,000km and the oil was about the colour it is now so I was shocked to see it still dirty. If the oil change really has been done (hard to believe) then 20,000km oil changes are way too long. The first service is 20,00km in the book.
Chris

[DazzaTD5]

45000kms on mine and oil is always clean and clear........must be becuase i change my oil every 5000kms.;)

As others have mentioned check oil filter, might be worth examining the viscosity of the oil aswell.

Yep there you go... change the oil on a regular basis on any common rail turbo diesel and all will be good for a very very long time. While I do say to customers it's wrong for any repairer to state "if you dont do ur oil changes every 5000kms you will b in trouble" .... 10,000km oil change intervals are perfectly fine, anything more such as stating 20,000km service intervals is merely to the benefit of the manufacturer meeting environmental standards and is very much to the detriment of the turbo diesel owner.

Good to see an owner doing 5000km oil change though, and do ur fuel filter & air filter every 10,000km..... welcome to trouble free engine life...

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

Total waste of oil, and no way do I believe that your oil is till clear after 5000klm, Regards frank.

IMHO and close to 30 years working as a mechanic I have to disagree with the "total waste of oil" .... the proof for the owner will be in 200K, 300K, 400K when its still running perfect...

I have numerous customers gained over a lifetime that have 300K, 400K plus on numerous engine that I've serviced every 10,000kms (oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter) these include..

200tdi, 300tdi, TD5, 2.7lt TDV6, 3.0lt V6 CRD (Jeep, Merc engines), 2.8lt CRD (Jeep).
Also rolling into other regular maintenance such as change the coolant every 2 years, I'll show you TD5s that have over 250K on the clock and the cylinder head has never been off.

My own Jeep Cherokee KJ 2.8lt CRD (VM turbo diesel) has 320,000kms on the clock, always done oil at 5000kms, It has its original turbo (known failure on that model) on it and still pulls hard enough to leave any D3 or RRS dead off from the lights, turbo diesel or petrol a like.

Regards
Daz

[4wheeler]

I had the oil changed at 18,500km on my 2013 2.2l Defender and now has 20,300km on it. Oil after the change was clear and has now started to blacken, although not heavily contaminated as yet.
My 2011 2.4 Ford Transit blackens the oil within 1000km of an oil change and has done so quickly since it was new. It now has 160,000km on it.

[DazzaTD5]

So do we know if the engine needs to have the factory oil in it for the first however many K's to assist break-in?
What service were you billed for (A or B )?
What's the service log book recommend for the first 10,000 or 15,000 Km?

I dont have any Jaguar Land Rover data stating anything about break-in oils, even factory crate engine just state as being filled with oil meeting specifications. You will find they are filled on the assembly line with what is spec'd for service, being Castrol bluh bluh meeting the Ford spec.

I'd be surprised to find any manufacturer producing mass assembly line products using a break-in oil nowdays.

Regards
Daz

[cafe latte]

I had the oil changed at 18,500km on my 2013 2.2l Defender and now has 20,300km on it. Oil after the change was clear and has now started to blacken, although not heavily contaminated as yet.
My 2011 2.4 Ford Transit blackens the oil within 1000km of an oil change and has done so quickly since it was new. It now has 160,000km on it.
Any chance of a pic just curious?
Cheers
Chris

[Tank]

IMHO and close to 30 years working as a mechanic I have to disagree with the "total waste of oil" .... the proof for the owner will be in 200K, 300K, 400K when its still running perfect...

I have numerous customers gained over a lifetime that have 300K, 400K plus on numerous engine that I've serviced every 10,000kms (oil, oil filter, fuel filter, air filter) these include..

200tdi, 300tdi, TD5, 2.7lt TDV6, 3.0lt V6 CRD (Jeep, Merc engines), 2.8lt CRD (Jeep).
Also rolling into other regular maintenance such as change the coolant every 2 years, I'll show you TD5s that have over 250K on the clock and the cylinder head has never been off.

My own Jeep Cherokee KJ 2.8lt CRD (VM turbo diesel) has 320,000kms on the clock, always done oil at 5000kms, It has its original turbo (known failure on that model) on it and still pulls hard enough to leave any D3 or RRS dead off from the lights, turbo diesel or petrol a like.

Regards
Daz
50+ years in diesel engine service and rebuilds from ride on mowers to container ship engines, but mostly long distance road transport and lately, since retirement light truck and 4WD vehicles.
I have noticed and had personal experience with manufacturers using light weight synthetic oils to run in todays multi OHC engines and I have seen many engines that fail to "Bed in" and switched back to Mineral oils for the Bed in period, about 15K then change back to Synthetic.
Diesel engines require a detergent type oil to "clean up" the extra soot created by diesel ignition, I had some considerable trouble with Rimula M back in the early 80's, was noticing that the oil was staying "clean", most of the engines using this oil (under my care) required total rebuilds after 300,000 klms, where my Mack running Rimula X had no problems at 480,000 klms.
As far as I'm concerned clean oil in a diesel is a sign that the oil is not doing it's work, the engines with clean oil had a lot of sludge inside the engine when torn down, Regards Frank.

[MrLandy]

This is my 20,000km service (first real service), I had a check for free at 6,000km but no oil change. I dont think there was any special oil for break in at least not that I am aware of. I did the service way early at 12,000km and the oil was about the colour it is now so I was shocked to see it still dirty. If the oil change really has been done (hard to believe) then 20,000km oil changes are way too long. The first service is 20,00km in the book.
Chris

Chris when did you check oil, at dealer as soon as you picked it up? Or after youve driven home? From your dipstick pics it looks like it's been driven a bit since change. It doesn't take long for remnant old oil to colour new oil a little, especially if not 100% drained. That's what it looks like from your pics. To me it doesn't look black enough to be 12,000km old oil.

[DazzaTD5]

50+ years in diesel engine service and rebuilds from ride on mowers to container ship engines, but mostly long distance road transport and lately, since retirement light truck and 4WD vehicles.
I have noticed and had personal experience with manufacturers using light weight synthetic oils to run in todays multi OHC engines and I have seen many engines that fail to "Bed in" and switched back to Mineral oils for the Bed in period, about 15K then change back to Synthetic.
Diesel engines require a detergent type oil to "clean up" the extra soot created by diesel ignition, I had some considerable trouble with Rimula M back in the early 80's, was noticing that the oil was staying "clean", most of the engines using this oil (under my care) required total rebuilds after 300,000 klms, where my Mack running Rimula X had no problems at 480,000 klms.
As far as I'm concerned clean oil in a diesel is a sign that the oil is not doing it's work, the engines with clean oil had a lot of sludge inside the engine when torn down, Regards Frank.

haha good on you Frank..... thats all I was looking for, some actual real world experience and not just a comment from another arm chair mechanic.

I'm aware of and agree with the need for a break-in or run-in oil, everytime I do a small diesel engine rebuild I use a low spec diesel oil (for the benefit of others, a small diesel engine is anything in a 4WD, Land Rover or a light truck, Isuzu etc). The industry I came from originally is the Crane, Mobile Elevated Work Platforms, Generators. We had the flexibility to change oil specs on engines to suit different load environments, this was especially useful with diesel generators (upto 600Kva). Doing exactly as you mentioned, a different oil for run in hours.

Unfortunately owners of light vehicles dont have that option, if they want to keep their warranty, they have to use an oil that meets the manufacturers specs. (a manufacturers spec is generally an easy requirement for an oil company to meet or exceed, unlike ISO standards).

With all due respect, as a tradesman I am aware of the need for detergent oils in diesel engines. Where I can I use a semi synthetic diesel oil (Penrite HPR Diesel 5 semi synthetic) for most vehicles I work on (I pretty well only do diesels), Jeep, Land Rover a like, and only go to a full synthetic when the semi synthetic doesnt meet the required spec, such as DPF/DPD equipped vehicles. As it meets numerous Ford specs its perfect for use in new Defender TDCi models. Diesels Ive been servicing from new that have been running on semi synthetic engine oil are the ones with high km's on them now and run better than new ones that have had servicing done using a full synthetic.

To further what you have said and in agreement, I've had engines come in where they have had many km's running on full synthetic and gotten a bit blue smokey on idle, I've changed them over to Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 and have come good by the next oil change.

I'm in full agreement to what you have said, except the "its a waste of oil" but did add that 10,000km servicing is perfectly acceptable and pointing that 20,000kms isnt so good.

just as a side note for the odd customer that gets all funny about me putting a "semi synthetic" into their Jeep or Land Rover because "they only use the best fully synthetic by royal oil company bluh bluh bluh" .....

The oil you buy thats labeled "full synthetic" if it doesnt have "PAO or Ester base" on it..... then its Mineral oil, same goes for "semi synthetic", its mineral oil. Its a loop hole in legality that allows oil companies to label products as such. Saying that modern engine oil is so far from the oils of old with regards to offering outstanding protection, heat, mechanical shear resistance etc etc.

I also find it odd when people/repairers say things like "oh that oil is too thin for our conditions" and want to put in a 10W40, 15W40, 20W40/50 etc etc. As an example a multi grade semi synthetic oil such as a 5W40 will have the flow characteristics of a SAE 5 oil at that oh so important cold engine start up (where as your base thicker oils wont), but at that hot engine running temp of 100 deg C will have the protection of a SAE 40 oil. Some of the additives (polymers/plastics) they put into engine oil are heat reactive, as in they swell up and make the oil thicker as it heats up. (thats an incredibly basic explanation though).

Regards
Daz

[1nando]

Total waste of oil, and no way do I believe that your oil is till clear after 5000klm, Regards frank.

It depends how you see it....

I have invested a lot of money into my Landy, i want to keep my Landy for a long time and want to enjoy driving it hassle-free for as long as possible.

Im in the transport industry and although we dont change the oil every 5k we do change the smaller trucks around 10k.

Why? Its a cheap insurance policy as i see it.

My egr has been switched off and blanked, i have an intercooler, decat straight through exhaust and remap.....

So YES my oil is still clean!

[Babs]

Daz,

That's some real good info you posted up there.

This is something I pulled off another post that another member had posted as the recommendation for a Puma 2.2

"OIL. Penrite HPR5 full synthetic. This has the requisite specs (WSS-M2C913-B or C) for the 2.2 non DPF"

Daz what is your recommendation for an oil for the Puma 2.2❓

I wasn't planning on sticking with the manufacturers 20k service intervals and am planning on dropping oil every 10k. I hadn't thought of doing all filters but after reading your comments I will be doing all filters every 10k.

👍👍👍

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[Babs]

CaffeLatte who did you go to for the service ❓

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[cafe latte]

CaffeLatte who did you go to for the service ❓

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Main agent in Townsville.
Chris

[cafe latte]

Chris when did you check oil, at dealer as soon as you picked it up? Or after youve driven home? From your dipstick pics it looks like it's been driven a bit since change. It doesn't take long for remnant old oil to colour new oil a little, especially if not 100% drained. That's what it looks like from your pics. To me it doesn't look black enough to be 12,000km old oil.

The oil pic was taken after a drive home from Townsville and a 60k round trip also. The oil was very clean for a long time and IMO no worse than the pic after 12k. Anyone here service Puma Defenders?
Chris

[4wheeler]

Any chance of a pic just curious?
Cheers
Chris

Happy New Year Chris,
I could post a photo of the 2.2 oil on the dipstick but it would look identical to your photos that you have posted.

The 2.4 Transit oil has been in the vehicle for 7500km and has way more deposit in suspension, in other words is very black without any translucence. The oil gets changed every 15000km on it and to be honest seems too long. As I don't get to use the Defender as much as I would like, I won't have to worry about the distance change requirement as it will be changed every 12 months without getting near the 20,000km standard change.

I might add that when they changed the oil last time on the 2.2, they did the oil pump so the oil would have been completely drained from the vehicle and a new sump fitted. I do know that with the 3.2 Ford 5 cylinder engines, there can be problems if the oil is left to drain for more than around 10 minutes due to the oil pump design, and left too long can cause oil starvation and resultant engine damage. I don't know if the same problem might occur with the 2.2 engine but they might not be letting the oil drain too long just in case.

[cafe latte]

Happy New Year Chris,
I could post a photo of the 2.2 oil on the dipstick but it would look identical to your photos that you have posted.

The 2.4 Transit oil has been in the vehicle for 7500km and has way more deposit in suspension, in other words is very black without any translucence. The oil gets changed every 15000km on it and to be honest seems too long. As I don't get to use the Defender as much as I would like, I won't have to worry about the distance change requirement as it will be changed every 12 months without getting near the 20,000km standard change.

I might add that when they changed the oil last time on the 2.2, they did the oil pump so the oil would have been completely drained from the vehicle and a new sump fitted. I do know that with the 3.2 Ford 5 cylinder engines, there can be problems if the oil is left to drain for more than around 10 minutes due to the oil pump design, and left too long can cause oil starvation and resultant engine damage. I don't know if the same problem might occur with the 2.2 engine but they might not be letting the oil drain too long just in case.

Thanks, if this is fresh oil I am more convinced about 10k oil changes, 20k would be very black.
Chris

[rick130]

You do realise that black doesn't mean excessive soot levels ?

The only way to know for sure is used oil analysis.

As Frank has already pointed out, the better the detergent/dispersant package, the blacker the oil will look.
I'd suggest the Ford specified oil has much lower detergency/dispersant levels than any ACEA E6/E9 or API CI-4+/CJ-4 HD diesel oil.
Also, a full flow filter will not remove soot from the oil, that can only be done with by-pass filtration.

Yes, lower soot is always better, we're talking microscopic carbon particles which are bloody hard, but in the big rigs if soot is kept below 2% wear is minimal and 100,000km oil drain intervals are possible and 1,000,000km+ engine life the norm.
A fellow that I leant a lot from was asked by MTU-Detroit in Brisbane to pull one of his DD60 Series engines at the 1,000,000km mark and MTU stripped it at an industry event to demonstrate the effectiveness of used oil analysis and premium, certified oils in the trucking industry.
The engines used Mann-Hummel centrifuges (the same as the Td5 uses) and he'd replaced the Donaldson syn media full flow filters with 30 micron stainless cleanable baskets, as they'd found the by-pass filters so effective.

ALL measurements came within new spec. Sludge was minimal to non existent.
The engine was re-assembled and put back into service.

I used to take a TD42T Patrol to 20,000km with, if my memory serves me right, soot at around or under 1%, wear metal numbers exceptionally good (approximately equivalent to premium mineral oils at around the 7500km mark) and financially in front due to the exxy oil (Delvac 1)
That engine used a by-pass as well as a full flow filter, and had a 10.5l sump capacity.
This was back before ULSD.

By comparison the oil was toast on a 300Tdi at 17,500km, 15,000km was the maximum and 10,000km much better.

A much smaller sump, and a harder working small displacement engine all worked against it even though the Tdi was a much cleaner burning and efficient design compared to the TD42T.

Interestingly the Tdi also retained at least 600ml of old oil in the sump and oil cooler circuit after an oil drain.
I wonder how much the Tdci retains ?

[cafe latte]

I know some degree of soot is ok, but if you have ever scraped carbon from behind piston rings you will know how much can build up (when I was a poor student now I replace pistons when I rebuild an engine). As that carbon layer builds up the rings cant move and wear more and more. What point at which the oil changes are excessive I dont know, but IMO changing the oil before carbon has change to build up is wise and if the oil is starting to get black it is a good time which seems is way before 20k.
Chris

[MrLandy]

Thanks, if this is fresh oil I am more convinced about 10k oil changes, 20k would be very black.
Chris

Chris, FYI, I just checked my oil, not far off 10,000km and it's a lot darker than your pics of dipstick. While I'm not a professional mechanic, I've done many oil changes over the years. I suspect yours is just residue of old oil colouring new oil. But happy to be corrected anytime by a pro.

While a related but separate issue to your original question, all this oil tech discussion is great to read, thanks guys, especially semi-synthetic vs full synthetic. However while in warranty surely we can really only go by LR specified oil: Castrol Professional 5W40.

[ozrob]

What needs to be taken into consideration is the specification of the oils that are available now days, and the efficiency of the combustion process and fuel metering.
Back in the old days when oils were not so refined, fuel metering was poor, and the level of soot out of the exhaust was the same as an old Layland bus, you had to change your oil every 5000Km.
I change my oil every 20,000km as my Defender is mostly a highway commute averaging 50,000km a year, engine oil reaches temperature which cooks off any condensation contamination in the oil.
If it was a city vehicle I would change the oil every 10,000Km as there is more oil contamination.
Oil is supposed to get dirty as it captures minute suspended particles of carbon, which can be drained away, oil life is effected on the ability of the polymer chains to bind the oil together to hold the shear strength of the oil film between bearing surfaces, going too long between oil changes, oil contamination from condensation, coolant leakage, overheating all reduce the ability of the oil to maintain the shear strength.

[rick130]

What point at which the oil changes are excessive I dont know, but IMO changing the oil before carbon has change to build up is wise and if the oil is starting to get black it is a good time which seems is way before 20k.
Chris

Soot is only one factor, air filtration is probably the most important factor in oil life, followed by usage.
From what I know and been told short trips will kill an oil faster than soot loading will create wear
.
The short trips allow moisture buildup, the moisture reacts with combustion by-products and becomes acidic, the alkalinity reserve built into the oil (measured by a scale, Total Base Number, TBN) becomes depleted, the additive package becomes depleted trying to continue protecting and on it goes.
At this point we could still have a relatively clean looking oil.

Fuel dilution and coolant contamination mean all bets are off. The oil is toast, nothing can protect against those two, and we'll still have relatively clean looking oil.

We can also have the situation I talked of above with the TD42T Patrol engine.
It's an indirect injected engine so supposedly dirty, and the oil did get black pretty quickly but the test results kept saying the oil was fine so I kept pushing the change intervals out to where it sounded crazy being a Japanese diesel engine but wear was minimised and we were saving money.
At that time the ex was racking up about 12,500km a month towing horses to competitions, clinics, vets, etc.

When it stopped doing those silly miles and relatively shorter trips I pulled the OCI back to 10,000km

That engine is up around 500,000km now and AFAIK running like a top, just a little puff of oil smoke from valve stem seals on a trailing throttle first thing in the morning when I last saw it five or so months ago.

[Tank]

haha good on you Frank..... thats all I was looking for, some actual real world experience and not just a comment from another arm chair mechanic.

I'm aware of and agree with the need for a break-in or run-in oil, everytime I do a small diesel engine rebuild I use a low spec diesel oil (for the benefit of others, a small diesel engine is anything in a 4WD, Land Rover or a light truck, Isuzu etc). The industry I came from originally is the Crane, Mobile Elevated Work Platforms, Generators. We had the flexibility to change oil specs on engines to suit different load environments, this was especially useful with diesel generators (upto 600Kva). Doing exactly as you mentioned, a different oil for run in hours.

Unfortunately owners of light vehicles dont have that option, if they want to keep their warranty, they have to use an oil that meets the manufacturers specs. (a manufacturers spec is generally an easy requirement for an oil company to meet or exceed, unlike ISO standards).

With all due respect, as a tradesman I am aware of the need for detergent oils in diesel engines. Where I can I use a semi synthetic diesel oil (Penrite HPR Diesel 5 semi synthetic) for most vehicles I work on (I pretty well only do diesels), Jeep, Land Rover a like, and only go to a full synthetic when the semi synthetic doesnt meet the required spec, such as DPF/DPD equipped vehicles. As it meets numerous Ford specs its perfect for use in new Defender TDCi models. Diesels Ive been servicing from new that have been running on semi synthetic engine oil are the ones with high km's on them now and run better than new ones that have had servicing done using a full synthetic.

To further what you have said and in agreement, I've had engines come in where they have had many km's running on full synthetic and gotten a bit blue smokey on idle, I've changed them over to Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 and have come good by the next oil change.

I'm in full agreement to what you have said, except the "its a waste of oil" but did add that 10,000km servicing is perfectly acceptable and pointing that 20,000kms isnt so good.

just as a side note for the odd customer that gets all funny about me putting a "semi synthetic" into their Jeep or Land Rover because "they only use the best fully synthetic by royal oil company bluh bluh bluh" .....

The oil you buy thats labeled "full synthetic" if it doesnt have "PAO or Ester base" on it..... then its Mineral oil, same goes for "semi synthetic", its mineral oil. Its a loop hole in legality that allows oil companies to label products as such. Saying that modern engine oil is so far from the oils of old with regards to offering outstanding protection, heat, mechanical shear resistance etc etc.

I also find it odd when people/repairers say things like "oh that oil is too thin for our conditions" and want to put in a 10W40, 15W40, 20W40/50 etc etc. As an example a multi grade semi synthetic oil such as a 5W40 will have the flow characteristics of a SAE 5 oil at that oh so important cold engine start up (where as your base thicker oils wont), but at that hot engine running temp of 100 deg C will have the protection of a SAE 40 oil. Some of the additives (polymers/plastics) they put into engine oil are heat reactive, as in they swell up and make the oil thicker as it heats up. (thats an incredibly basic explanation though).

Regards
Daz
In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.

[Tank]

It depends how you see it....

I have invested a lot of money into my Landy, i want to keep my Landy for a long time and want to enjoy driving it hassle-free for as long as possible.

Im in the transport industry and although we dont change the oil every 5k we do change the smaller trucks around 10k.

Why? Its a cheap insurance policy as i see it.

My egr has been switched off and blanked, i have an intercooler, decat straight through exhaust and remap.....

So YES my oil is still clean!
All I can say is it is still a waste of money and oil, do you have any evidence that using oil for half of it's recommended working life instead of it's full working life has a beneficial effect, other than feeling good about it, because it seems you are saying that if you follow the Land Rover engineers and oil manufacturers advice then you are shortening the working life of your Land Rover.
If your oil comes out clean you have a problem, regards Frank.

[weeds]

Geez I don't even check the oil between services.........than alone look at the colour.

[Pickles2]

In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.
"R" Model Mack?.....Maxidyne/Thermodyne?
Regards, Pickles.

[DazzaTD5]

Daz,

That's some real good info you posted up there.

This is something I pulled off another post that another member had posted as the recommendation for a Puma 2.2

"OIL. Penrite HPR5 full synthetic. This has the requisite specs (WSS-M2C913-B or C) for the 2.2 non DPF"

Daz what is your recommendation for an oil for the Puma 2.2❓

I wasn't planning on sticking with the manufacturers 20k service intervals and am planning on dropping oil every 10k. I hadn't thought of doing all filters but after reading your comments I will be doing all filters every 10k.

👍👍👍

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

The oil I use in bulk (everything that is NON DPF/DPD) Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 Semi Synthetic, it also meets the Ford 913 spec.

I had thought that maybe the very last of the Defender TDCi in Australia might be DPF/DPD (Diesel particulate filter / defuser), but the last couple I've had in, although the Cat is different, its not a DPF and there is a blank plug at the top where I would expect the flow sensor to be. I also confimed this after the fact on Phil's Heritage "HUGH 166" when I got to see it yesterday and two other new Defenders with build dates of AUG/OCT 2015 and the specs list as "EURO STAGE 4 EMISSIONS".

As I previously mentioned, engines that I've changed over to it run noticeably better in all respects. Cold start running is quieter, I find this most noticeable in the old 200/300tdi engines that have a big noise difference from cold running to operating temperature.

Its also worth noting that engine sludge is caused by the engine oil breaking down (or rather the additives used in that oil) due to such factors as heat, impurity loading (there is a technical word for that somewhere) and mechanical shear. Once an oil has broken down, its ability to resist such factors as mechanical shear is greatly reduced, which then compounds the sludge issue. Heavy sludge is a sign that the oil running in an engine is not the correct specification, as in real world specifications, the oil is breaking down and not doing its intended job.

Obviously while I'm sold on the Penrite brand, its the spec of the oil thats important and not the brand, I'm sure everyone's fav brand will have a similar spec semi synthetic diesel oil.

Regards
Daz

[rick130]

Geez I don't even check the oil between services.........than alone look at the colour.


:Rolling:

Ditto these days.

I've learnt the hard way that obsessing about lubes and servicing doesn't mitigate against catastrophic failure in these 'little' engines.
You can be as pedantic as you like, but if a part fails it fails, and even 1000km oil changes won't stop that.

Valve stem caps and big ends in Tdi's, some TD5's did injector cam lobes thanks to faulty heat treatment.
The only saving grace with the silly expensive oil I used to run in the Tdi was that when the big ends delaminated, as a lot at the end of the production run did thanks to faulty bearing overlay I didn't seize and snap the crank as most appeared to do.
A polish of the worst journals, new shells, checked clearances and another set of big ends and gudgeons more recently (don't ask but little engines don't like increased pump advance and increased fueling, it pushed them waaaay past their design limitations) the bottom end is still going.

[DazzaTD5]

In 2003 I bought (new) a Ford BA GT, this engine came from the factory with Castrol edge(?) 0W-40, I was using almost a litre of oil/5K.
At 15K with no improvement in oil consumption, Ford swapped out my engine for a brand new engine (same engine #, old engine crushed)and used Penrite 20w-40 for 5K and I drove it like I stole it, after 5K and not using oil like before went back to Castrol edge, no more oil problems.
Perkins also states under NO circumstances to use Synthetic engine oil in their 6354T line of engines.
Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank (whatever) and suspend soot particles that bypass piston rings and and deposits on cylinder walls.
Diesels when Idling or at low revs (pressures) do not expand the compression ring effectively, allowing soot to by-pass.
If this soot is not washed off the cylinder walls and suspended in the oil till it reaches the oil filter then the engine will fail early, now oil filters only take out the rocks and boulders, very fine particulate matter stays suspended in the oil making it turn black.
So if a diesel engine oil comes out clean there is a problem.
Modern oils are strong enough to be changed at 10K no worries, back in the 80's I was doing 10K oil changes on my Mack, I changed over to Marina M (Shell) to try to extend oil changes to 15K. As my Mack had a 60L sump, 3 oil Filters, 2 fuel Filters, 1 water filter and I was clocking over 5K/week it got to be an expensive exercise.
This New oil leaked out of every orifice and then some, the engine rattled and I used 20L of oil from syd. to adel. and back, this oil also came out clean.
I complained to Shell and they sent me a 44 of Rimula X to shut me up.
So alarm bells ring if I see clean oil esp. in a diesel engine, IME., Regards Frank.

I'm assuming you are just providing more info, as there is nothing to disagree with you.

*Rimula X was/is a good heavy diesel engine fleet oil, most old and new guys in the heavy diesel industry will agree and I used to use it on Franna Cranes etc.
*Perkins, Cummin, Komatsu, Volvo... all the heavy diesel engines as used in generators (and I guess trucks etc) generally recommend not to use full synthetic oils. Especially generators that were prone to being over spec'd for their use, as in using a 200Kva generator to run a small exploration camp 24/7.
*Some of these heavy diesel engines were the size of a small Japanese car and were of a very low tech design and quite a long way from a fragile high reving light common rail diesel engine as found in light vehicles.
*I've not really had anything to do with old american designed (what mid 70/80's at best?) engines such as used in Ford Falcons (except the age old Rover V8 which dates back to the mid 60's) but at a guess its the same level of tech. Maybe it was a poor build quality thing?

*Yes one of the functions of "Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank" so if we are talking light diesel engines, having an oil that has good flow characteristic on cold engine start is an important critical factor. Surely your not suggesting using a multi grade engine oil 20W50 in a light common rail diesel engine, because it simply will not offer cold starting protection nor will it offer as good high temperature protection due to their inherent lower VI rating which floats around 120 - 130. The multi grade engine oil 5W40 will have good flow characteristics when cold and will resist mechanical shear at hot engine temperature due to their very high VI rating of 150 and above.

But there is three topics of conversation in that.
*Oil consumption (most likely) due to the oil doing its job too well and offering no run in ability or bedding such as the case with a multi grade oil labeled "full synthetic". Hence why I recommend semi synthetics that fall into the "manufacturers specs" (as in not being too over the top protection for an engine that does little work).
*And an oils ability to offer good engine protection at both critical cold start, running and high temperature running.
*An oils resistance to breaking down due to such factors as mechanical shear.

This is compounded by the fact most light diesel engines in light vehicles are grossly over powered for the vehicle, as in the engine is doing very little work, stop start to the shops and back, sitting on just above idle rpm on the freeway. The average common rail turbo diesel in a light vehicle is producing round (or generally over) 400NM of torque, to propel a vehicle weighing 1.5 - 2.5 tons, thats not really a lot of work for a light diesel. Sooting, glazing, sludging is a common issue with light diesel engines.

Regards
Daz

[rick130]

T
Its also worth noting that engine sludge is caused by the engine oil breaking down (or rather the additives used in that oil) due to such factors as heat, impurity loading (there is a technical word for that somewhere) and mechanical shear. Once an oil has broken down, its ability to resist such factors as mechanical shear is greatly reduced, which then compounds the sludge issue. Heavy sludge is a sign that the oil running in an engine is not the correct specification, as in real world specifications, the oil is breaking down and not doing its intended job.



Regards
Daz

Oxidation is what causes sludge. (is that word you were looking for ?)

As you say the oil has broken down, the oil molecules shear and combine with deposits, moisture etc and agglomerate.

Overheating, lack of decent additives, (cheap oil) low TBN, moisture or coolant contamination all contribute.

[DazzaTD5]

because it seems you are saying that if you follow the Land Rover engineers and oil manufacturers advice then you are shortening the working life of your Land Rover. regards Frank.

Yes..... how could anyone believe otherwise?
Do you or anyone else honestly believe that Land Rover engineers (or rather the Corporation that controls "their" engineers) and oil manufacturers (good grielf, an honest oil company????) are somehow working to get the longest service life out of your Land Rover Defender???

Long service intervals, fluids for life, using thin 0 - 20 grade oils (for improved fuel consumption), coolants for life or 10 yearly, is to the benefit of the manufacturer (that large Corporation) as it meets better environmental standards due to less waste being produced for that model.

EGR blanking or delete.... why not follow the engineers and leave it all on there, surely they wouldnt have engineered something that would shorten the life of an engine?

To believe that somehow any large major Corporation has some warm fuzzy feeling towards the products they produce is an odd (wishful) thought.

If such a thing was the case, the Defender would have remained in production, there was only one reason it was stopped.... it wasnt cost effective to continue.

Regards
Daz

[Tank]

"R" Model Mack?.....Maxidyne/Thermodyne?
Regards, Pickles.
R model Mack, 320 Coolpower, 12 speed O/D Mack box, 44,000lb Mack H/D diffs and axles camel back rear suspension, 3 leaf Parabolic front springs, Road Train Specs., great truck never let me down, top speed 115klm/h, see if I can find a pic, regards Frank.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/958.jpg

[Tank]

I'm assuming you are just providing more info, as there is nothing to disagree with you.

*Rimula X was/is a good heavy diesel engine fleet oil, most old and new guys in the heavy diesel industry will agree and I used to use it on Franna Cranes etc.
*Perkins, Cummin, Komatsu, Volvo... all the heavy diesel engines as used in generators (and I guess trucks etc) generally recommend not to use full synthetic oils. Especially generators that were prone to being over spec'd for their use, as in using a 200Kva generator to run a small exploration camp 24/7.
*Some of these heavy diesel engines were the size of a small Japanese car and were of a very low tech design and quite a long way from a fragile high reving light common rail diesel engine as found in light vehicles.
*I've not really had anything to do with old american designed (what mid 70/80's at best?) engines such as used in Ford Falcons (except the age old Rover V8 which dates back to the mid 60's) but at a guess its the same level of tech. Maybe it was a poor build quality thing?

*Yes one of the functions of "Oil is to lubricate, to keep a film of oil between bearing surface and crank" so if we are talking light diesel engines, having an oil that has good flow characteristic on cold engine start is an important critical factor. Surely your not suggesting using a multi grade engine oil 20W50 in a light common rail diesel engine, because it simply will not offer cold starting protection nor will it offer as good high temperature protection due to their inherent lower VI rating which floats around 120 - 130. The multi grade engine oil 5W40 will have good flow characteristics when cold and will resist mechanical shear at hot engine temperature due to their very high VI rating of 150 and above.

But there is three topics of conversation in that.
*Oil consumption (most likely) due to the oil doing its job too well and offering no run in ability or bedding such as the case with a multi grade oil labeled "full synthetic". Hence why I recommend semi synthetics that fall into the "manufacturers specs" (as in not being too over the top protection for an engine that does little work).
*And an oils ability to offer good engine protection at both critical cold start, running and high temperature running.
*An oils resistance to breaking down due to such factors as mechanical shear.

This is compounded by the fact most light diesel engines in light vehicles are grossly over powered for the vehicle, as in the engine is doing very little work, stop start to the shops and back, sitting on just above idle rpm on the freeway. The average common rail turbo diesel in a light vehicle is producing round (or generally over) 400NM of torque, to propel a vehicle weighing 1.5 - 2.5 tons, thats not really a lot of work for a light diesel. Sooting, glazing, sludging is a common issue with light diesel engines.

Regards
Daz
The old BA GT engine referred to was a Quad OHC 5.4L V8 putting out a lazy 400HP, so was designed to use fast flowing thin oils, if you want old tech. look no further than Holden/chev pushrod OHV lumps.
Yes the post was for extra info, not disagreeing with you, Regards Frank.

[DazzaTD5]

However while in warranty surely we can really only go by LR specified oil: Castrol Professional 5W40.

Well all the Jaguar Land Rover info I have gives the specifications (the Ford specs) the rest just says "recommends castrol" You are meeting the Ford specification for engine oils, so your warranty is not effected.

On a side note, outside of companies such as Westrac (CAT dealer in W.A) I've not seen anyone send oil off for testing when there is a warranty claim and even with testing it will only show whats in the oil and not what brand it is.

Another note is the gearbox oil used in the Getrag MT82 box, again meeting the Ford spec, the Castrol factory fill isnt available as a retail or trade product (there is similar) unless you buy the 1lt bottles through a Land Rover dealer parts dept, the service dept isnt going to buy the 1lt bottles, they will use similar. According to Ford in Australia, Ford dont even import their "Ford" branded fluid here, again.... they use..... similar....

Personally when I change to a particular brand or specification its not because I'm just looking for an alternative for the sake of it or even for cost. I'm looking for a product that is better suited for a particular application. Even though I'm running a small business there really is not much motivation to use one brand over another, the pricing difference between them all isnt all that great, your talking equal price or 1 or 2 dollars a litre cheaper. I used Castrol for many years for all drive line applications, castrol, nulon, shell for engines, then switched and added another brand to all that. Always have used ZF Lifeguard 6 for all the newer ZF boxes in D3s etc. I've now slowly moving over to Penrite as they have a range of products that meet the specifications I'm looking for.

Regards
Daz

[tact]

The oil I use in bulk (everything that is NON DPF/DPD) Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W40 Semi Synthetic, it also meets the Ford 913 spec.

Are you sure that semi-syn oil meets the spec for non-DPF TDCi 2.2 engines? (WSS-M2C913-B or C)

I couldn't find that was the case from the Penrite site.

The full-syn HPR5 is lists compliance with Ford:
M2C912-A/913-A/913-B/913-C/913-D

Just asking.... If the HPR Diesel (semi-syn) really meets that ford spec then i will be happy.

[DazzaTD5]

Are you sure that semi-syn oil meets the spec for non-DPF TDCi 2.2 engines? (WSS-M2C913-B or C)

I couldn't find that was the case from the Penrite site.

The full-syn HPR5 is lists compliance with Ford:
M2C912-A/913-A/913-B/913-C/913-D

Just asking.... If the HPR Diesel (semi-syn) really meets that ford spec then i will be happy.

Yes it is
HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.) (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_fuel_type=3&id_products=7)

Ford M2C153-H/171-C/913-B/913-C
Keep in mind the 913B spec as required is quite an old Ford spec, C and D specs now, but not listed as required on a Defender TDCi.
Here is a list of Ford specs: Ford Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org (http://www.oilspecifications.org/ford.php)

Regards
Daz

[rick130]

re warranty, any oil that is licensed by a manufacturer, and it will say so, as in 'Approved by Ford' and quote the specification number.

This costs the oil blender to submit it to the manufacturer to be tested, and they'll let you know that it's an approved fluid.

Some blenders will use weasel words like "meets xyz specification" and it very well may, but there's a world of difference when in warranty between 'approved' and 'meets the specification'

Penrite do this with lots of oils, as do all the big boys.
A lot of smaller independents, and some of the big independents don't.

[DazzaTD5]

re warranty, any oil that is licensed by a manufacturer, and it will say so, as in 'Approved by Ford' and quote the specification number.

This costs the oil blender to submit it to the manufacturer to be tested, and they'll let you know that it's an approved fluid.

Some blenders will use weasel words like "meets xyz specification" and it very well may, but there's a world of difference when in warranty between 'approved' and 'meets the specification'

Penrite do this with lots of oils, as do all the big boys.
A lot of smaller independents, and some of the big independents don't.

*Good point with reference to "oil blenders" .... as there are very few "oil companies" that actually refine crude oil.
*Funny enough one of the reasons I started to move away from Castrol products was the lack of available technical info. I've not actually seen a Castrol engine oil with the words "Approved by (Ford or Land Rover)" but only such marketing phrases as "selected by" "partnered with" "recommended by" "chosen" "global partner" ..... non of it very technical.

A bit off topic but interesting non the less...
Three things in life you can be sure of.... Death, Taxes, Oil Companies maximising profits. All oil companies do lots of clever, sneaky, dishonest, misleading technical marketing.

4 great dvds to watch:
*A Crude Awakening.
*CRUDE.
*An inconvenient truth.
*Who killed the electric car.

Regards
Daz

[BigJon]

On a side note, outside of companies such as Westrac (CAT dealer in W.A) I've not seen anyone send oil off for testing when there is a warranty claim and even with testing it will only show whats in the oil and not what brand it is.


Daz


I know of a D4 with a failed engine under warranty that had oil sent for testing.

[DazzaTD5]

I know of a D4 with a failed engine under warranty that had oil sent for testing.

I'm sure it may well happen, would be interesting to know why they did that, but did u see the results of the test? Silicate (sand/dust) content is a big one they look for...

Regards
Daz

[tact]

Yes it is
HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 (Semi Syn.) (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_fuel_type=3&id_products=7)

Ford M2C153-H/171-C/913-B/913-C
Keep in mind the 913B spec as required is quite an old Ford spec, C and D specs now, but not listed as required on a Defender TDCi.
Here is a list of Ford specs: Ford Oil Specifications - oilspecifications.org (http://www.oilspecifications.org/ford.php)

Regards
Daz

Thanks DazzaTD5. I missed that totally when looking a few months back.

[Eevo]

anyone know where to get used oil testing kits?

[rick130]

anyone know where to get used oil testing kits?


There's a few companies and the big oil companies have their own labs too, but I've always used ALS.
I don't use their cheapest kit, can't recall what it's named ATM as I want a few extra things done, but I think it's E-Monitor ?
It's probably the easiest way to go.

[ozy013]

Another note is the gearbox oil used in the Getrag MT82 box, again meeting the Ford spec, the Castrol factory fill isnt available as a retail or trade product (there is similar) unless you buy the 1lt bottles through a Land Rover dealer parts dept, the service dept isnt going to buy the 1lt bottles, they will use similar.

Regards
Daz


The Castrol BOT328 is available retail in 1 lt bottles, I got mine from Rovacraft, Ritters also sell it. I did approach a dealer, but they put a pretty hefty mark up on it. Rovacraft sell it at $63.24 per ltr bottle, well that was the price March 2015.

[Babs]

Yes..... how could anyone believe otherwise? Do you or anyone else honestly believe that Land Rover engineers (or rather the Corporation that controls "their" engineers) and oil manufacturers (good grielf, an honest oil company????) are somehow working to get the longest service life out of your Land Rover Defender??? Long service intervals, fluids for life, using thin 0 - 20 grade oils (for improved fuel consumption), coolants for life or 10 yearly, is to the benefit of the manufacturer (that large Corporation) as it meets better environmental standards due to less waste being produced for that model. EGR blanking or delete.... why not follow the engineers and leave it all on there, surely they wouldnt have engineered something that would shorten the life of an engine? To believe that somehow any large major Corporation has some warm fuzzy feeling towards the products they produce is an odd (wishful) thought. If such a thing was the case, the Defender would have remained in production, there was only one reason it was stopped.... it wasnt cost effective to continue. Regards Daz


Daz you hit the nail on the head with this one.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[rick130]

Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


Looks like the website is down so I can't access the current TDS.

I might have them on the portable hard drive but they may not be current, I'll have a look later.

[AlecW]

Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

I will second Babs' motion. For the cheap seats in the back please?

[rick130]

Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner


OK, neither oil is an approved Ford oil, i.e. it hasn't been submitted to Ford for testing.
The 5w-40 full syn is an approved BMW and MB oil, as it states the approvals.

The Penrite lube guide recommends HPR5 5w-40 over the HPR5 diesel, personally I'd go the other way as the HPR5 Diesel meets the (now obsolete) API CI-4+ spec, which is a bloody good US heavy duty diesel oil spec. It has a high detergency/dispersancy level and very good anti-wear characteristics.
It also meets the European ACEA E7 spec, which is pretty good but has been surpassed by ACEA E6 and E9, which specify a slightly better wear and soot handling spec. and are suitable for DPF.

https://www.lubrizol.com/assets/0/294/1090/37723/caf1d88e-3cd1-47ea-ac3d-0fdfb9e1a07a.png?n=1651 (https://www.lubrizol.com/assets/0/294/1090/37723/caf1d88e-3cd1-47ea-ac3d-0fdfb9e1a07a.png?n=1651)
This comparison illustrates how both sequences are expected to provide similar performance in terms of bore polishing and piston cleanliness. However, ACEA E9-12 is expected to provide a higher level of performance in terms of corrosion protection, soot handling, aftertreatment compatibility and wear protection than ACEA E7-12. (from Lubrizol)

The 5w-40 syn only meets the US API diesel CF spec, which is twenty years obsolete.
It also meets the ACEA A3/B4 spec which is current for most Euro light diesels and probably more pertinent for this comparison.
It'd be a very good oil, it has a high TBN so can meet the extended drains the Euro manufacturers are specifying but generally speaking a HD diesel oil is more robust than most all dual rated but petrol biased oils.

Either oil will protect very well, but without testing I'd take a guess the HPR5 Diesel would provide lower wear numbers in the long term with better soot handling and not exceeding 10,000km drains.

If you were going the full 20,000km oil change interval it'd be interesting to see if the full syn came out in front due to better oxidative stability.

This is all based on a guestimate from looking at the spec sheets, nothing more.
The only way to know for sure would be real world testing.

How's that for CYA ? :D

[Marty90]

I've had a look at the website and the HPRDiesel 5 SAE 5W-40,semi syn is the primary recommendation for LR TD5,Ford and Mazda, but the preferred (by Penrite) oil is HPR 5 SAE 5W-40 full synthetic . For Transit Duratorc 2.2 you must use spec:
WSS-M2C913-D,which is the full synthetic HPR 5 SAE 5W-40.They also recommend using their engine flush every oil change.
MY HEAD HURTS:bangin:

[DazzaTD5]

Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

*Its not really a question of an oil labeled 'full synthetic" over one thats labeled "semi synthetic".
*Its also not about one brand over another brand, I'd hazard a guess that if two oils are meeting the same spec and got tested, the difference may not even be detectable (thats a thought worth doing, if samples can be given to a testing company and see if they can be tested for more than just impurities (metal, sand etc).
*Its really lets face it, my opinion and nothing more.
*Regardless of a label stating "Approved by" or not, if it meets the specifications it wont negate your warranty.
*With all the info I see with regards to Castrol, their technical data doesnt state its Ford or other wise approved.
*The Ford spec for the later Duratorq 2.2 says to use an engine oil meeting spec 913-D for extended oil drain intervals (again is this just meeting better environmental specs?).
*The Land Rover data only goes to saying an oil meeting the Ford 913-B spec.

I'm not suggesting the oil labeled "semi synthetic" is better than an oil labeled "full synthetic", what I am saying is for a particular application it's a better choice, in this case an engine that:
*Is not particularly hi-tech for a common rail diesel.
*Doesnt do much work, considering the high torque it produces compared to the weight it pushes along. (lets face it, any modern common rail diesel really is grossly over powered for the vehicle it's in (and we wouldnt want it any other way right?)).
*Pushes along a vehicle, just upto the shops and back, school and back, work and back.

IMHO I think the oil labeled "full synthetic" is prolly going to do its job too well in an engine that is only moderately at most stressed. Its a point "Tank" (Frank) was pointing to with regards to full synthetic oils in a given application that they work too well at providing metal on metal protection, its not allowing an engine to run-in, wear progressively as it should. Honestly I wouldnt see an issue really to running an engine oil labeled "full synthetic" over the one labeled "semi synthetic".

Like I said, its my own thoughts and observations and nothing more. yet over the years I'm seeing more examples of issues that I'm now starting to believe its that combination of an engine oil that is doing its job far too well so to speak in an engine that does very little to no workload on a daily basis year after year.

I've had a few TD5 engines, R/RA/A 428 engines (Jeep), OM642 engines (Jeep) all very similar common rail diesel tech levels, that have been run on a "full synthetic" engine oil for a lifetime (round that 200-250K) and were doing a bit of light blue smoke (burning oil), I've changed a few over to a "semi synthetic" engine oil and they have started to come good, either within a few 100kms or by the next oil change.

The Duratorq engine again is a nice level of tech, its not really that far past a TD5 engine and all the ones I look after seem to run exceptionally well and I believe will do so for a long time.

But with all that BS aside, an old school thing always taught was;
*Give a diesel engine the 3 basics: Clean air, Clean fuel, Clean oil and it will last a lifetime. Its still basically true but it was prolly said back in the days when the only diesels were trucks and tractors that were used as work vehicles/tools. It really doesnt take into account how a modern (high torque producing) diesel engine is used in light vehicles on a daily basis of short runs with little to no workload.

I really dont know if all that gells or not or is of any use, but if nothing else it's a relatively (midly) interesting topic.

Regard
Daz

[AlecW]

Daz,

A little off topic but are there any considerations to mindful of during the wear-in process of a new 2.2 in terms of driving style?

[DazzaTD5]

Daz,

A little off topic but are there any considerations to mindful of during the wear-in process of a new 2.2 in terms of driving style?

Honestly I think the build standard and machining tolerances even on mass produced engine far exceed that of old, so I dont think any particular driving style will be needed for a new modern engine.

The basics still apply and most manufactures do have a recommended driving method listed in the hand book;
*Drive moderately at different speeds and dont do large long kms at highway speed for that typically first 1500kms or so.
*Keep rpm to a limit of about 3000rpm (so just under that sweet gear change point for a Defender TDCi) but dont labour the engine, so dont use 5th in a 80kmph zone, 4th is a better choice, dont use 6th for freeway 100kmph, 5th is a better choice.
*Dont sit there is the morning with the vehicle idling to "warm it up", it doesnt, it will get to correct operating temp with light acceleration.
*If you want to do the occasional high rpm to see how it accelerates, do so when its at normal operating temp.
*Light to moderate driving for that for 1500kms will also allow other components to bed in correctly such as brakes.
*Check under bonnet fluid levels weekly.
*Do an oil change at prolly 5000kms, why not the Ol 1000kms first oil change? As already mentioned build quality of engines and oil quality is far better than it was 30 or 40 years ago. But there will still be metal particles from that initial running, it would prolly also be fine to extend that first change to 10,000kms giving you any easy to remember engine oil change interval every 10K.
*For a Defender TDCi (puma) change out all driveline fluid levels round that 30,000kms, you will find the Transfer case and especially the diff oils, will be black and metal loaded.

Regards
Daz

[tact]

Daz,

A little off topic but are there any considerations to mindful of during the wear-in process of a new 2.2 in terms of driving style?

Here is a link to a few words on the topic that I wrote a while back. Had done a lot of reading. It may be good advice - It may be terrible advice.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/176542-new-110-dc-family-2.html#post2163092

Basically the message is "don't baby them, don't labour them". Apparently they need to work, get on boost, to ensure rings seal properly etc.

[AlecW]

Honestly I think the build standard and machining tolerances even on mass produced engine far exceed that of old, so I dont think any particular driving style will be needed for a new modern engine.

The basics still apply and most manufactures do have a recommended driving method listed in the hand book;
*Drive moderately at different speeds and dont do large long kms at highway speed for that typically first 1500kms or so.
*Keep rpm to a limit of about 3000rpm (so just under that sweet gear change point for a Defender TDCi) but dont labour the engine, so dont use 5th in a 80kmph zone, 4th is a better choice, dont use 6th for freeway 100kmph, 5th is a better choice.
*Dont sit there is the morning with the vehicle idling to "warm it up", it doesnt, it will get to correct operating temp with light acceleration.
*If you want to do the occasional high rpm to see how it accelerates, do so when its at normal operating temp.
*Light to moderate driving for that for 1500kms will also allow other components to bed in correctly such as brakes.
*Check under bonnet fluid levels weekly.
*Do an oil change at prolly 5000kms, why not the Ol 1000kms first oil change? As already mentioned build quality of engines and oil quality is far better than it was 30 or 40 years ago. But there will still be metal particles from that initial running, it would prolly also be fine to extend that first change to 10,000kms giving you any easy to remember engine oil change interval every 10K.
*For a Defender TDCi (puma) change out all driveline fluid levels round that 30,000kms, you will find the Transfer case and especially the diff oils, will be black and metal loaded.

Regards
Daz

Good stuff, that's what I pretty much did with my Skoda yeti 2ltr hdi. Will take the advice for the initial 5k oil and 30k driveline lubes. Thanks a lot

[afb]

Here's mine at 22000km, similar appearance to yours. Mine is serviced every 10000km.
Cheers
Adrian

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/adrianfbailey/media/F28C3FB1-0FD6-4CCD-8B2B-89931D01668F_zpsi9em9rkp.jpg.html)

[MrLandy]

So that's 2000km after 20K service Adrian?

[AlecW]

Here's mine at 22000km, similar appearance to yours. Mine is serviced every 10000km.
Cheers
Adrian

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/adrianfbailey/media/F28C3FB1-0FD6-4CCD-8B2B-89931D01668F_zpsi9em9rkp.jpg.html)

Lookin pretty bloody healthy to me Adrian....

[Babs]

Thanks for all that info Boys and you took the time to write up, appreciated ✅✅✅


Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Blknight.aus]

anyone know where to get used oil testing kits?
any major plant manufacturer has them, cat, volvo, hitachi, John deer and JBC are all kit packs I've seen in the ADF, I think I still have a couple of the sample kit boxes down stairs if you want the details for CAT SOS oil sampling


Wow this is very educational for the Nube, great info guys. Thank you.

However can we get it broken down in point form as to why Penrite HPR Diesel 5 5W-40 Semi Synthetic is preferred over the 5W-40 Full Synthetic ❓❓❓

Appreciated ✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Short version pumps and flows like a synthetic, skins like a mineral oil


Here's mine at 22000km, similar appearance to yours. Mine is serviced every 10000km.
Cheers
Adrian

http://i723.photobucket.com/albums/ww239/adrianfbailey/F28C3FB1-0FD6-4CCD-8B2B-89931D01668F_zpsi9em9rkp.jpg (http://s723.photobucket.com/user/adrianfbailey/media/F28C3FB1-0FD6-4CCD-8B2B-89931D01668F_zpsi9em9rkp.jpg.html)

If you know the operating conditions and condition of the engine along with the driver technique and loadings Id suggest using that as a control for doing the "blotting paper oil drop" tests then doing the same with the brand new from the bottle oil. Repeat this at about 1K Km intervals till your service.

on your next service, save some of the oil from the engine, contaminate small samples of it with a couple of drops of water/coolant, diesel, brake fluid and repeat the blotter test with the contaminated samples. Then you'll know what you're looking for on the blotting paper test.

[YOLO110]

I just rang the dealer and they tell me the oil has for sure been changed, but to be honest I am not so sure.
Any thoughts
Chris

Back to the ops original post...

Old 'trick'... Have you also 'smelt' the oil on the dipstick? 'Old' oil that has seen many heat cycles and use will have a distinctive almost 'burnt bitter' smell to it that newly changed but 'blackened' oil does not have.

And always change the filter with every oil change. What is the point in leaving a litre or so of old oil trapped in the filter to instantly 'dirty' your newly changed oil. None! The price of the filter and the ease to change it is insignificant compared to litres of synthetic oil. :)

[D2lee]

FWIW, all 3 diesels I've owned (1994 Delica, 2007 Kia Sorento and 1981 Nissan Patrol) turned the oil back within a few minutes of running after oil and filter change.

[bsperka]

My BIL insists that this is how they should be; he's a diesel mechanic by trade. I used a good oil flush concentrate and the old hilux diesel's oil is still relatively clear after hours of operation. Not as clear as the TD5 but in good condition compared to how the oil behaved prior to using the flush. So even though most people reckon that's how old diesels behave, it's not necessarily correct.

[vnx205]

FWIW, all 3 diesels I've owned (1994 Delica, 2007 Kia Sorento and 1981 Nissan Patrol) turned the oil back within a few minutes of running after oil and filter change.


My BIL insists that this is how they should be; he's a diesel mechanic by trade. I used a good oil flush concentrate and the old hilux diesel's oil is still relatively clear after hours of operation. Not as clear as the TD5 but in good condition compared to how the oil behaved prior to using the flush. So even though most people reckon that's how old diesels behave, it's not necessarily correct.

Surely the point is that if there is a lot of old oil trapped in places where it can't drain out, then the new oil will be slightly discoloured almost immediately.

On the other hand, if there are no places for some of the old oil to be trapped or if the old oil is diluted with an intermediate flush, then it will look a lot clearer.

How dirty the oil is after a change probably tells you more about the shape of the oil galleries and oil reservoirs inside the motor than it tells you about anything else.

[MrLandy]

Hey Chris, FYI I've just picked my Puma up from service. Here's a pic of my dipstick immediately after pickup. Looks very similar to yours I reckon, what do you think? New oil, new filter, slight residue of old oil visible, but nothing to worry about. Hope that helps.
Cheers

[Beery]

Hey Chris, FYI I've just picked my Puma up from service. Here's a pic of my dipstick immediately after pickup. Looks very similar to yours I reckon, what do you think? New oil, new filter, slight residue of old oil visible, but nothing to worry about. Hope that helps.
Cheers


That looks normal for a dealership/workshop service. When changing the oil they would whip the sump plug out, unscrew the old filter, whack a new one on and put the sump plug back in. All in the blink of an eye. Time is money in a workshop so they wouldn't be standing around waiting for every last drop.

Mine looks a lot cleaner after an oil change because I give it a good 15 mins or more before putting the sump plug back in.

I've seen people tip a bit of fresh oil in while the sump plug is out, just to flush more of the old oil out, but thats probably over the top.

[MrLandy]

Yes agreed Beery. I also specifically drain oil warm when change my own so it flows freely, though the slight remnant oil staining the new is not really cause for concern. Cheers

[AlecW]

Whoops

[AlecW]

Yeah when I drop oil I give it plenty of time to drain and sometimes use a little kerosene to get the rest of the dirty stuff, let that drain off and rinse with a little fresh oil. New oil filter, whack sump plug back in and my oil stays clean for quite some time

[rick130]

Yeah when I drop oil I give it plenty of time to drain and sometimes use a little kerosene to get the rest of the dirty stuff, let that drain off and rinse with a little fresh oil. New oil filter, whack sump plug back in and my oil stays clean for quite some time

Oooh, that makes me wince Alec. :o

I do the fresh oil thing as the Tdi retains almost 800ml of oil between the sump and oil cooler circuit, but kero.
Naaa.

[Beery]

Oooh, that makes me wince Alec. :o

I do the fresh oil thing as the Tdi retains almost 800ml of oil between the sump and oil cooler circuit, but kero.
Naaa.

Its probably no worse than those "flushing oils" you can buy. But they're designed to be pumped through the system with the engine running. Not that I'd use them myself.

If Alec is just tipping it in, it'll pretty much just drain straight to the sump and out the drain without going 'through' anything.

[scarry]

anyone know where to get used oil testing kits?

Wear check also do oil testing kits.A quick google will find a close supplier.They are also available from some Refrig/AC wholesalers.

The other thing is looking at a thin film of oil on a dipstick doesn't really give a great indication of the colour.You need to look at a sample of around 50 to 100ml in a clear jar or a similar container.

[AlecW]

Yes well most of the oil flush products are kerosene based and it all runs straight through to the sump plug hole, gets a lot of residue out. After pouring a little spec oil through afterwards I doubt it would cause any problems. This is a 300tdi after all....

[PAT303]

If only you'd spend as much time worrying about the important servicing requirements instead of the bloody oil :mad:. Pat

[DazzaTD5]

Hey Chris, FYI I've just picked my Puma up from service. Here's a pic of my dipstick immediately after pickup. Looks very similar to yours I reckon, what do you think? New oil, new filter, slight residue of old oil visible, but nothing to worry about. Hope that helps.
Cheers

I consider that to be clean and new oil....

Regards
Daz

[AlecW]

If only you'd spend as much time worrying about the important servicing requirements instead of the bloody oil :mad:. Pat

What you mean by that Pat?

[PAT303]

Alec,show me an LR engine destroyed because of dirty oil and I'll show you 50 destroyed because of a split rad hose,failed viscous hub,blocked rad core ;). Pat

[Eevo]

Alec,show me an LR engine destroyed because of dirty oil and I'll show you 50 destroyed because of a split rad hose,failed viscous hub,blocked rad core ;). Pat

i can show you a bmw engine destroyed by dirty oil.
20,000km service intervals

[DazzaTD5]

Alec,show me an LR engine destroyed because of dirty oil and I'll show you 50 destroyed because of a split rad hose,failed viscous hub,blocked rad core ;). Pat

lol ohhhhh soooo true....

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

i can show you a bmw engine destroyed by dirty oil.
20,000km service intervals

Highly likely, after all its like all german made cars.... its a ****box...

and now VW has showed not only are they crap grossly over engineered, oil leaking ****, they also cant be trusted....

Its just a pity the Japanese motor industry didnt drive them all to the wall...

Regards
Daz

[Eevo]

Highly likely, after all its like all german made cars.... its a ****box...

and now VW has showed not only are they crap grossly over engineered, oil leaking ****, they also cant be trusted....

Its just a pity the Japanese motor industry didnt drive them all to the wall...

Regards
Daz

BMW make good cars imho.
owned two and regret selling

jap cars have been hit n miss for me.

[MrLandy]

This thread is in response to the OP's entirely legitimate query about oil changes. It's not about engine failures caused by overheating or anything else. It's also got nothing to do with oneupmanship. ...What happened to no question is wrong here?

[AlecW]

Alec,show me an LR engine destroyed because of dirty oil and I'll show you 50 destroyed because of a split rad hose,failed viscous hub,blocked rad core ;). Pat

I don't have to show you anything Pat. I'm not disputing anything you have said and simply put down something I do to keep my engine clean every few oil changes. Inferring that I don't consider other aspects of maintenance from that is just plain stupid. Take your tone elsewhere.

New gear box, transfer case, power steering, ALL plumbing/intercooler hoses, front and rear pinion seals, new front rotors, bearings and pads all round, front swivels serviced and 1 replace, clutch, water pump and housing replaced, welsh plug behind water pump, new rad, new viscous fan, intercooler, turner head, all driveline lubes every 2 yrs, clutch slave, fuel lines and more.

Don't talk to me about bloody maintenance.

[rick130]

Yes well most of the oil flush products are kerosene based and it all runs straight through to the sump plug hole, gets a lot of residue out. After pouring a little spec oil through afterwards I doubt it would cause any problems. This is a 300tdi after all....


The problem with the Tdi is that IIRC about 500ml of old oil is retained just in the sump as the drain port is higher than the bottom of the sump.

I actually did a drain years ago, then dropped the sump and measured the remaining fluid. It's substantial, which is why I won't use a flush other than fresh oil.

[AlecW]

Alec,show me an LR engine destroyed because of dirty oil and I'll show you 50 destroyed because of a split rad hose,failed viscous hub,blocked rad core ;). Pat


The problem with the Tdi is that IIRC about 500ml of old oil is retained just in the sump as the drain port is higher than the bottom of the sump.

I actually did a drain years ago, then dropped the sump and measured the remaining fluid. It's substantial, which is why I won't use a flush other than fresh oil.

I simply pour a little bit through to grab a little residue, it does not cycle through the engine. Jack up the front end and a lot of it comes out, then pour some fresh oil through. No biggy

[Toxic_Avenger]

For the OP,
If you paid for it, and it wasn't done, seek your satisfaction.
The onus would be on you to prove otherwise.
Surely with your pre-driving checks you would have notices that the oil got significantly cleaner after the service?

I've seen some dirty oil in my time, and yours looks OK IMO.

[DazzaTD5]

BMW make good cars imho.
owned two and regret selling

jap cars have been hit n miss for me.

I've yet to see a german engine that didnt leak oil, the worst being BMW X5 diesel, BMW engines in Range Rovers, Merc engines in Jeeps, VW engines in Jeeps, even the Merc Ambulances I used to work on leaked oil.

And they typically balls up simply service items such as changing air filters, fuel filters, checking fluid levels...

By contrast, Japanese vehicles such as Toyotas generally have good R & D and if they think you might have to service something they make it easy to remove.

Regards
Daz

[PAT303]

I don't have to show you anything Pat. I'm not disputing anything you have said and simply put down something I do to keep my engine clean every few oil changes. Inferring that I don't consider other aspects of maintenance from that is just plain stupid. Take your tone elsewhere.

New gear box, transfer case, power steering, ALL plumbing/intercooler hoses, front and rear pinion seals, new front rotors, bearings and pads all round, front swivels serviced and 1 replace, clutch, water pump and housing replaced, welsh plug behind water pump, new rad, new viscous fan, intercooler, turner head, all driveline lubes every 2 yrs, clutch slave, fuel lines and more.

Don't talk to me about bloody maintenance.
You asked a question,I answered it,if you don't like the answer you got do your own search,it's all on here.To the original question about dirty oil there's always old oil in the engine that contaminates the new stuff the moment you start it. Pat

[Beery]

Change your hoses and fan clutch every 100,000km if you wish, other than that, they are not a servicable item. They fail, often without warning and we have little control over when or why they go, especially when due to manufacturing quality. You can inspect them as often as you like.
Oil cleanliness, on the other hand, we have a LOT of control over so it would be silly not to pay plenty of attention to 'servicing' it.

Hard to predict an unexpected, catastrophic component failure.

[PAT303]

Beery,you said it,rad hoses fail without warning and lead to very expensive repairs or real expensive engine replacement,considering they cost around $100 for the Tdi/Td5/V8 and $50 for a fan hub I shake my head at why they are ignored yet 5000K oil changes are followed religiously by members on this site .Anyway there your vehicles and the money comes from your wallet so what ever blows your hair back. Pat

[Beery]

Well, rather than chiming in with snide remarks, maybe you could've said something along those lines in the first place. A courteous comment, directed to the relevant person/people, rather than talking 'about' them right in front of their face, would be much more helpful.

Replacing hoses and fan hubs at unnecessary intervals exposes you to just as much risk from faulty, poorly made components failing. Seen that happen plenty of times too!

[goingbush]

Interesting thread,

I bought an Iveco Daily 4x4 just over 2 years ago, Have now done 80,000 km

Its a twin turbo, 3.0 L common rail diesel by FPT not dissimilar to any other modern 4x4 Diesel engine.

Iveco state 40,000 km between services !! they don't want to see it for first service till 40,000 km :eek:

IMO opinion thats crap, I did a first service at 5000km, then self service every 10,000 km, I noticed the oil went black within the first 20-50km after each service. At 20,000km I had ECU remapped and EGR blanking plate. Now the Oil stays clean right through till 10,000km .

I also changed from LowSaps oil to HPR5 because I removed the DPF, but I firmly believe the oil is staying clean because I removed the EGR and exhaust fumes (soot) is no longer being ingested into the engine, and the clean oil has nothing to do with DPF removal / change of oil spec.

[Beery]

Yeah the EGR removal will make the biggest difference. But deleting the DPF regen cycle when you remove it will also stop oil dilution from the extra diesel used in regen. Unless its one that injects diesel straight in to the DPF of course!

[AlecW]

You asked a question,I answered it,if you don't like the answer you got do your own search,it's all on here.To the original question about dirty oil there's always old oil in the engine that contaminates the new stuff the moment you start it. Pat

Really don't know how this applies to me or the question I asked. Irrelevant info and rude. Whatever

[rick130]

I also changed from LowSaps oil to HPR5 because I removed the DPF, but I firmly believe the oil is staying clean because I removed the EGR and exhaust fumes (soot) is no longer being ingested into the engine, and the clean oil has nothing to do with DPF removal / change of oil spec.

I wouldn't have stressed too much over the low SAPs oil, if it was an ACEA E6/E9 oil they are really robust and actually handle soot better than the older spec oils, but if the HPR5 diesel is a fair bit cheaper, you're in front. :D

[PAT303]

Well, rather than chiming in with snide remarks, maybe you could've said something along those lines in the first place. A courteous comment, directed to the relevant person/people, rather than talking 'about' them right in front of their face, would be much more helpful.

Replacing hoses and fan hubs at unnecessary intervals exposes you to just as much risk from faulty, poorly made components failing. Seen that happen plenty of times too!

Sorry if it was taken that way because that wasn't my intention,I was asked a direct question so gave a direct answer,the thought of not replacing a part because the new one might be faulty is a new way to look at maintenance. Pat

[PAT303]

Really don't know how this applies to me or the question I asked. Irrelevant info and rude. Whatever

Alec,we are on different wave lengths here,no offence intended. Pat

[gavinwibrow]

Beery,you said it,rad hoses fail without warning and lead to very expensive repairs or real expensive engine replacement,considering they cost around $100 for the Tdi/Td5/V8 and $50 for a fan hub I shake my head at why they are ignored yet 5000K oil changes are followed religiously by members on this site .Anyway there your vehicles and the money comes from your wallet so what ever blows your hair back. Pat
Pat, you are onto something here.
A few of us non experts regularly comment that it would be wonderful to know those non maintenance specified items that can be expected to fail during a range of time/km, and for a small(ish) cost could be replaced well prior to anticipated failure date.
I for one would be happy to pay for such a list to supplement the official LR documentation, but except for items specifically mentioned (like your post here), don't know what I'm looking for.

Food for thought??

[Eevo]

if it aint broke, dont fix it.
but carry a spare.

[Beery]

Like Eevo said.
But also, I think the single best thing you can do is inspect everything regularly. Feel the condition of the hoses, look at them, look the ends for signs of movement or leaks. You'll learn a lot more about your vehicle and the condition of parts. You can then replace them as necessary.

[MrLandy]

Like Eevo said.
But also, I think the single best thing you can do is inspect everything regularly. Feel the condition of the hoses, look at them, look the ends for signs of movement or leaks. You'll learn a lot more about your vehicle and the condition of parts. You can then replace them as necessary.

Agreed, keep a regular eye on things, this is easy to learn. But in general prevention is always better than cure IMHO. Like when you get your spare hoses, but put the new ones on and keep the old as spares. Change your 300tdi head gasket at 200,000 odd km, replace bearings at 100,000 odd, flush / test radiator, replace water pump if going on long trip in hot country, etc.

[goingbush]

<snip>Change your 300tdi head gasket at 200,000 odd km, replace bearings at 100,000 odd, flush / test radiator, replace water pump if going on long trip in hot country, etc.

now thats just silly, perhaps check bearings if you have white metal coming out with the old engine oil (non magnetic sparkly oil) at 100,000 and replace if necessary, and only change head gasket if its blown or leaking, they are not routine maintenance items .

regular maintenance and sympathetic driving should have those items good for 450-500km .

[rick130]

now thats just silly, perhaps check bearings if you have white metal coming out with the old engine oil (non magnetic sparkly oil) at 100,000 and replace if necessary, and only change head gasket if its blown or leaking, they are not routine maintenance items .

regular maintenance and sympathetic driving should have those items good for 450-500km .

Err, I disagree.

A lot of Tdi's are known for needing big ends around the 250-300,00km mark, and head gaskets at around the same time.
Most Landy specialists do a precautionary check of the big ends in that km range and they often need replacing.