3.9 v8 temperature sender

[DoubleChevron]

Hi Guys,

does anyone know what the temperature gauge dash sender size is? I'm going to fit an aftermarket gauge that actually tells the truth, and screw it's sender into the factory spot on the motor :)

seeya,
Shane L,

[bee utey]

Just behind the thermostat on the inlet manifold water branch from the passenger side head are two temp senders. The single wire one does the dash gauge, the two wire one does the ECU.

[Homestar]

Yep, it is the way to go - I've got a VDO mechanical temp sender in mine - screwed into the factory location as per what Bee Utey just said - it's easy to spot.

[DoubleChevron]

Thanks guys,

so it's just a standard temp sender thread then ?

seeya,
Shane L.

[Homestar]

Without looking I think so - I think it may be 3/8th? Electric sender will probably be 1/8th gas and may need a reducer - I can check in the morning.

[DoubleChevron]

Without looking I think so - I think it may be 3/8th? Electric sender will probably be 1/8th gas and may need a reducer - I can check in the morning.

Thanks, don't let your coolant out .... I can do that and check :cool: I was just being lazy and avoiding making a mess in the shed, then having the re-bleed the thing :wasntme:

I might have a standard mechanical gauge here fitted to one of the old cars that will fit. I might try :)

seeya,
Shane L.

[Homestar]

Coolant is already out and the manifold needs replacing, so I've got to pull it apart anyway - was going to do it this week, gives me an excuse to get stuck into it. :D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

why is the coolant out Babs?

[Homestar]

Had a leak from the thermostat housing. When I went to fix this, one of the bolts snapped off the manifold. I've been trying to get the bastard out for a month but all I've managed to do is **** the manifold. I have another one sitting there, so today's job is to bung that on so I can finally drive the bloody thing a bit. :D

Got to drop the fuel tank too and fix the sender and replace the lazy fuel pump as well.

I should stop procrastinating and actually go and do it...

[Homestar]

Shane - standard thread. Below is a pic. That's a standard VDO sender to the right of the 2 pin ECU sender. This has got an electric gauge now - the 3.5 had the mechanical gauge, which I have replaced - I must have busted it or something - I don't actuall remember... :angel:

My new manifold is different - typical, so I've had to repair the old one - you can see the busted bolt in the photo. O the bench it was a snap to drill it out. All fixed, but I've lost the gasket I bought for this months ago now....

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/790.jpg (http://s1086.photobucket.com/user/Bacicat2000/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-01/18D62405-A792-435A-B37C-6E7A7C596353_zpsspj5d9gz.jpg.html)

[DoubleChevron]

Perfect, one of my parts cars has an immaculate looking VDO mechanical temperature gauge in it (the gauge itself looks brand new). I'll whip it out and check the capillary, if it works I'll fit it :banana:

I'm wondering if you fitted an electric one as the mechanical gauges wire out to the sender wasnt long enough .... :) I'll find out I guess!

I'm suprised you didn't weld a nut to the stud. I suck at drilling them out. I almost always end up off center with the drill :( .... Easy outs suck too. They always snap leaving you with the hardest metal known to man to try and drill :wasntme:

seeya,
Shane L.

[Homestar]

Tried welding a nut on it while it was in the car - it just broke off. It drilled out nice and easy. If you start off centre, you can correct it before it goes too far. Once I'd drilled out 90% of it, I ran a tap down the hole and it all fell out. New bolts are installed with anti seize so hopefully that won't happen again.

Almost got it all back together, I want to get water into the system tonight to see if I have any static leaks before I run it tomorrow.

[DoubleChevron]

Tried welding a nut on it while it was in the car - it just broke off. It drilled out nice and easy. If you start off centre, you can correct it before it goes too far. Once I'd drilled out 90% of it, I ran a tap down the hole and it all fell out. New bolts are installed with anti seize so hopefully that won't happen again.

Almost got it all back together, I want to get water into the system tonight to see if I have any static leaks before I run it tomorrow.

I use a loctite anti-seize stick on nearly everything these days. It took me 2hours of swearing to get the exhaust 'Y' pipe to exhaust flange undone last weekend. Lots of :censored: involved. Whoever fitted the discovery engine/gearbox ... I'm bloody sure they used "loctite never" on the threads, rounded the bloody nuts (no, I'm not kidding they were rounded when I climbed under and looked) then I reckon just for the hell of it they sprayed it all with salt water :wasntme:

I ended up grinding through the lower nut until it was almost through to the bolt in two places and hitting it with a chisel to break it.... then cutting the exhaust into two pieces behind the huge center muffler and rotating the muffler 180degrees so I could grind through the top nut in two places and hit it with a chisel.

All this is just preperation for the transfer case change. The borg warner is a lot larger so you need to disconnect the exhaust (in this case remove it as the center muffler is bloody ginourmous and remove the chassis cross member to tilt the engine. I don't reckon you'd need to do this with the LT230 as it clears the transmission hump.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Ok... First up ... I humbly offer these cheap ****ty temperature controllers an apology ... And will simply say, if your multi-meter ever flashed "Low Bat" ............ Change the bloody battery!!! Otherwise your resistance and therefore TEMPERATURE probe will read incorrectly.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/721.jpg

These cheap ****ty gauges are infact dead on in the other car.

Anyway, I found the temp sender in the '92 ........ underneath the thermostat housing (different place to the piccies previously in this thread). The sender looked way different to the mechanical temp gauges :( I thought I better check the manual Rangie too .... Can you believe it ... The temp sender is moved again .... 'Cos this car has a serpentine belt Disco V8 ..... Infact, I can't find the damn thing. It's hidden either under the plenum or behind the alternator/dizzie.

So I'm looking at the bloody thing scratching my head and thought ............. No way ....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=103986&stc=1&d=1452170418

The temp gauge fits straight into the bleed point on the top of the radiator. Now this isnt' an ideal place for a sender.... It's reading the coolant temperature, not the engine temperature. So if you loose all coolant ........ It'll show cold..... If your thermostat doesn't open .... .it'll show cold.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=103987&stc=1&d=1452170418

Before trying to fit this thing, I thought I better test it. And I'll be damned if it didn't agree with the ****ty temp controllers in the other rangie ... Fans on low speed (wow those falcon fans are nice .... so quiet on low speed). On at 76degrees..... A mere 45seconds later off at 72degrees.... So I dragged out the mutli-meter it disagreed. So I changed the battery in the multi-meter and it now agrees with the gauges................ AAARrrrrhhhh, how stupid am I :(

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=103988&stc=1&d=1452170418

This will have to be where that nice little VDO gauge will be placed. I don't think the capillary wire will be long enough to place the gauge anywhere else.

seeya,
Shane L.

[PLR]

Ok...

Infact, I can't find the damn thing. It's hidden either under the plenum or behind the alternator/dizzie.





seeya,
Shane L.

Look at bacicat pic , #10 post , the one closest to his broken bolt .

[DoubleChevron]

Look at bacicat pic , #10 post , the one closest to his broken bolt .

I'll have another look, but I couldn't see it there. The '92 is in a different spot, below the thermostat housing. The disco motor could be different again. I'll try to feel by touch to see if it's behind the ECU's temp sender.

seeya,
Shane L.

[PLR]

I'll have another look, but I couldn't see it there. The '92 is in a different spot, below the thermostat housing. The disco motor could be different again. I'll try to feel by touch to see if it's behind the ECU's temp sender.

seeya,
Shane L.

All the V belt manifolds , carby , flapper , hotwire all face forward in the same place as the one you`ve found .

The serpentine belt hot wire 3.9 Soft dash RR , Disco are on top at front like the picture from bacicat .

[Homestar]

Shane, I had a spare manifold I was goin to use, but there were quite a few differences. One of which was the temp sender was not drilled or tapped on the other one like it was on mine.

My engine is a 96 - serpentine belt out of a Disco, the other manifold is off what I believe was a 93 - RRC.

[DoubleChevron]

Well the fuel smells are still pretty bad. My wife will refuse to travel in it as petrol fumes will give her asthma. She can't travel in air cooled cars like Citroen 2cvs/GS either (as any oil fumes end up straight into the cab through the heater tubes).

I unscrewed the petrol filler cap on the automatic that has never had petrol smells and it hissed for quite a few seconds.. while it bleed air in. So I sucked on the top of it's cap ... It only allows air one direction.... there is a one way valve there. I tried the stinky one ... No restriction, air flows both ways. Bingo, found the problem. Swap the caps, drive the end of the street and turn at the downhill intersection ..... Lots of petrol fumes into the cab with the window down.

The last owner said he had the little tank out a couple of times, so I'm certain the tank and it's connections will be fine. I reckon it's going to have a crack in the filler tube .... Which will allow fumes straight into the cabin as it's not closed off from inside the car. I can't see how to unscrew the filler tube so it must be up above the tank.... So I'll need to pull the tank out and the filer tube. Petrol just splashing around in the tank is making a lot of fumes so it MUST be the filler tube that basically passes through inside the cabin. What I'll need to do is remove the filler tube, put the cap on and hold it upside down and see if it leaks from anywhere.

I've chased fumes in Citroen CX's before. You can spend bloody ages pulling stuff apart multiple times and not find it (drives you insane). I finally pulled the filler tube out of that one and find a tiny crack in the bottom of it. It's amazing how small a crack in a filler tube will pull a HUGE amount of fumes into the cabin if you have the front windows down.

Winding up all the windows and turning the fans on seems to stop these sorts of fuel smells. You have slightly pressurised the cabin so the fumes seem to be pushed out.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Forgive me Shane if you've found it,, but on my serp belt V8 the electrical temp plug is on the vertical water pipe, at the front, in the centre of the engine.

I also have a pair of those ****ty guages, for water and auto temps, glad to know they work!:lol2:

[DoubleChevron]

Bloody hell.... Look how complex the vent system on the fuel tank is. For the first time ever I've found something useful in the manual I have here. You will love the suggested test for the tank vent system. Get this:

1. Ensure there is at least 2gallons of fuel in the tank
2. Disconnect at the adsorption canister the pipe the vapour seperator.
3. connect this pipe to nitrogen cylinder and water manometer using a "T" piece.
4. Pressurise the system to 27.5 inches of water .... and measure an pressure drop .........

Hey .... damn, there is a good suggestion there ... if a pressure drop is found, search for a nitrogen leak with soapy water at all the connections.

Now if I pump say 10psi into the tank from the charcoal canister under the bonnet I should be hear to hear where the leak is from the air hissing out right ?

seeya,
Shane L.

[Homestar]

I've got a manometer you can borrow and I'll be in Ballarat today if that helps?

Leaving home around 11. If you get on here before then, PM me you address and phone number. :)

[DoubleChevron]

I've got a manometer you can borrow and I'll be in Ballarat today if that helps?

Leaving home around 11. If you get on here before then, PM me you address and phone number. :)

Thanks for the offer! But Nah, I know there is a HUGE leak there, it wouldn't pressurise. I'm figuring if I put a few PSI in there I'll hear it hissing out from wherever the leak is. I might even be the safety pressure valve doesn't work ... so the air will just come straight back out :)

Say, what do you use a manometer for :confused: :)

seeya
Shane L.

[Homestar]

Thanks for the offer! But Nah, I know there is a HUGE leak there, it wouldn't pressurise. I'm figuring if I put a few PSI in there I'll hear it hissing out from wherever the leak is. I might even be the safety pressure valve doesn't work ... so the air will just come straight back out :)

Say, what do you use a manometer for :confused: :)

seeya
Shane L.

http://youtu.be/9ytei6bu7kQ

[Homestar]

Oops, not quite. It is a device used for measuring pressure drop using a U shaped pipe with graduations on it - usually in inches of water. You connect one end to the test piece - gas pipe, ,fuel tank, etc and the other end stays open to atmosphere. You pressurise it to whatever - as your book said 27.5 Inches of water - so you increase the pressure in the test piece until the water goes up the tube 27.5" then turn everything off and wait to see if the water in the manometer forces any air out of the test piece. You can read his off the scale, so you might have a spec that says it can loose 2" water per hour - you can read this off the manometer after an hour.

Clear as mud? Maybe a Gas Plumber can explain it better, but I use mine to test fuel tanks, radiators, etc.

[DoubleChevron]

Oops, not quite. It is a device used for measuring pressure drop using a U shaped pipe with graduations on it - usually in inches of water. You connect one end to the test piece - gas pipe, ,fuel tank, etc and the other end stays open to atmosphere. You pressurise it to whatever - as your book said 27.5 Inches of water - so you increase the pressure in the test piece until the water goes up the tube 27.5" then turn everything off and wait to see if the water in the manometer forces any air out of the test piece. You can read his off the scale, so you might have a spec that says it can loose 2" water per hour - you can read this off the manometer after an hour.

Clear as mud? Maybe a Gas Plumber can explain it better, but I use mine to test fuel tanks, radiators, etc.

Yes that makes sense. I'm thinking about just using a few psi from my air compressor into the vent system. They specify nitrogen as it's an inert gas.... But I don't have a regulator that would go anywhere near low enough to use nitrogen safely (infact I use a suicide line off the bottle when I use the nitrogen :o )

seeya,
Shane L.

[bee utey]

Yes that makes sense. I'm thinking about just using a few psi from my air compressor into the vent system. They specify nitrogen as it's an inert gas.... But I don't have a regulator that would go anywhere near low enough to use nitrogen safely (infact I use a suicide line off the bottle when I use the nitrogen :o )

seeya,
Shane L.
I think that given the state of your system you'd be looking for flow rather than actual pressure, a disconnected hose won't hold anything...

[DoubleChevron]

I think that given the state of your system you'd be looking for flow rather than actual pressure, a disconnected hose won't hold anything...

Yep, that's what I meant, I should be able to hear it hissing out somewhere :) At least I know where to start then when I dismantle it !

[PhilipA]

There is a known problem with 91 etc plastic tanks , in that they have 4 vents, one at each top corner and they can crack around the vents.
Secondly, AFAIR there is a non return valve up in the RH guard which can become detached.
It is normal for the tank to have pressure as it is only vented into the manifold under certain conditions, usually light throttle cruising.

You should also check the valve on top of the carbon canister to see if it opens.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

The tank concerned is a steel auxiliary tank in the RH rear corner as the main plastic tank has been removed and replaced by 2 LPG cylinders. The filler pipe is all external, it lives outside of the inner skin of the RH rear area of the cargo bay. It isn't unusual for people to butcher the inner skin imagining that no fumes will enter through the holes. WRONG! I suggest you remove the loose items against the inner RH rear panel and the adjacent floor and seal all the holes before proceeding.

[PhilipA]

Well in that case all bets are off.

Whats the bet the tank is just venting externally and not via the evap.

I recall the experiments I had to go through on a 77 I had which had an inside vertical LR tank in the RH side.

That bloody vent caused me ton of grief including draining all the fuel out on steep slopes. I ended up running the vent through to the top of the black panel and making a hole there.
Regards Philip A

[DoubleChevron]

Thanks Guys,

yep, I'm being really slack today.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104144&stc=1&d=1452404124

Not a trace of a leak anywhere. Not what I was expecting at all!

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104145&stc=1&d=1452404124

This could be a good reason why. The pipe is completely crushed by the tank mounts at the back

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104146&stc=1&d=1452404124


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104147&stc=1&d=1452404124

This is a really nifty setup. I bet it wasn't a cheap install "back when they were new :) ".

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104148&stc=1&d=1452404124

This is why I'm being so slack. The mechanical temp gauge is still just sitting on the bench in the shed. Yes it's over 45degrees in the shed! I'll drain and drop the tank as soon as it's cooled down a bit.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

This is easy 'cos the tank is TINY!! It must only be about 20litres ( I drained about 20litres from it :) ).

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104162&d=1452427921

6 bolts in the cargo area .. no worries.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104163&d=1452427921

The tank just drops down and you can access the hoses to remove.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104161&d=1452427921

The filler tube was rattling around loose, so I opened the flap and removed the filler cap and it fell out on the floor.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104164&d=1452427921

[DoubleChevron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104165&stc=1&d=1452428297

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104166&stc=1&d=1452428297

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104167&stc=1&d=1452428297

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104168&stc=1&d=1452428297

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104169&stc=1&d=1452428297

This is what the sucker looks like. The brass fitting is obviously where it's broken in the past. With the fuel cap off the other car on it, air POURS out from around this brass bit with no restriction at all. I imagine even fuel would pour out here if you filled the tank and went around a corner ...

[DoubleChevron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104170&stc=1&d=1452428541

YUMMIES ... Petrol sure does suck... :( Anyway, this is how I tested it, put my finger over the breather and blow into the filler tube .... It leaks HEAP of air around the brass fitting with no restriction after the hose has been removed too.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104171&stc=1&d=1452428541

This is actually a really good fix. It's in there nice and tight without splitting the plastic. I'll just need to figure out a petrol proof sealer to refit it with. 'Cos the air and fumes just pour straight out around it like it's not even there. It may have been tight and fume free when initially fitted, but the plastic around it will have relaxed over time.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104172&stc=1&d=1452428541

Not sure what this modification is for ... but it doesn't leak so I'll ignore it :)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104173&stc=1&d=1452428541

This will be the "overpressure" valve. It works fine, it only flows one way, and you have to suck on it quite hard to get it to flow air (it's going to take a 6pack to get the taste of petrol out of my mouth https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/592.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

This looks like a 1 way valve ... does nothing, it flows air both ways.

[DoubleChevron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104174&stc=1&d=1452428541

This non working 1 way valve from above connects to the small breather on the top of the tank. Not only does the one way valve no work.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104175&stc=1&d=1452429213

The fumes from it come straight out of this hole. I assume this should be hooked to the line that runs to the front of the car and the charcoal canister.

It's even better than that though.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104176&stc=1&d=1452429213

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104177&stc=1&d=1452429213

See the red staining around the fuel pump and filler.... Yep, that'll be leaks too. I'll need to pull the pump and put a new gasket under it (I'm assuming cutting one from gasket paper will be fine).

Does anyone have a suggestion on a petrol proof sealer to use on all these connection ?? ie: the brass connectors, the breather and pump seals? I'll have to figure out a way of hooking up the broken off line down to the charcoal canister too (and refit a canister).

This is pretty good. This is all quite easily fixed and put back together :banana:

seeya,
Shane L.

[bee utey]

The "non working 1 way valve" is simply a quick connector. You push some part of it (under the green ring) to release the pipe.

The pump assembly is fitted with an OEM rubber seal, it may have been fitted incorrectly. Paper gaskets don't come into it. The seal has to be fully fitted very carefully into the tank first, then the flange of the pump assembly slightly lubricated and pushed carefully into the seal. I use neat dish washing detergent for this job, as it dissipates quickly.

The filler neck is highly modified, originally it was much longer with a horizontal connection to the OEM fuel tank. The modification is quite difficult to do reliably as the pipes aren't at all round and have seams to fox you. I used to hate doing these with a passion.

Fix the broken off nipple by threading a new brass fitting in there, 1/8 bspt thread to whatever hose size you're going to use.

Sealant: loctite 515 master gasket, or something that says petrol resistant on the packet. Gasket grade silicone may suffice. Just cleaning the rubber seals may help too.

I hope the hole behind the LPG filler has a sealed cover, or that will be where all the fumes are entering the cabin. Only a Mexican gas fitter could manage something that crazy. There is a proper dual filler assembly made my AMR manufacturing (Melbourne based company) that fits in next to the petrol filler, that is the only sensible arrangement.

Have fun.;)

[Homestar]

Good old Aviation Form A Gasket is fuel proof, as are some RTV's but not silicone based ones. Dow Corning make a fuel resistant RTV, but I can't recall the actual product off the top of my head sorry.

[PhilipA]

It is as I expected.
The hose with the one way valve out of the expansion chamber should go to the Evap system.
You may find that the expansion chamber is now too low and may fill with petrol on steep angles.
All in all pretty usual stuff.
Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

It is as I expected.
The hose with the one way valve out of the expansion chamber should go to the Evap system.
You may find that the expansion chamber is now too low and may fill with petrol on steep angles.
All in all pretty usual stuff.
Regards Philip A
The black one way valve connects to the evap canister. It is the one broken off the filler assembly. The white one is a relief valve to atmosphere. The separation chamber on the filler pipe is exactly the same height as before, the tank itself is supposed to be filled to the level of the pump flange as the fill pipe should extend to that depth.

Below is what a well designed corner tank looks like with an unmolested filler pipe assembly. Ignore the modded part towards the camera, it is for converting this tank for additional diesel capacity next to a steel long range tank. They will be joined under the chassis by hose.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[DoubleChevron]

Thanks guys,

To prevent the separation tank filling with fuel, I will just loop the breather hose up higher than the filler tube in the wheel arch. That way petrol should never reach it ( well in theory that sounds right).

I'll have a look around today and see if I can find all of the fuel resistant sealants mentioned!

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

The black one way valve connects to the evap canister. It is the one broken off the filler assembly. The white one is a relief valve to atmosphere. The separation chamber on the filler pipe is exactly the same height as before, the tank itself is supposed to be filled to the level of the pump flange as the fill pipe should extend to that depth.

Below is what a well designed corner tank looks like with an unmolested filler pipe assembly. Ignore the modded part towards the camera, it is for converting this tank for additional diesel capacity next to a steel long range tank. They will be joined under the chassis by hose.


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104180&stc=1&d=1452465705

Pefect, thanks a picture is always worth a 1000 words. I can now tell it was the LPG fitter that modified all of this.

Out of interest you will fill the secondary tank with your modification, but how will you pickup fuel from it. I'm guessing you run multiple tank pumps with one way valves in there output lines?

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Thinking about this. Why don't we just ignore the separation tank (what a crazy idea). If I could get a simple 'T' piece I'd run the tank vent line up high into the wheel arch (higher than the filler tube so in theory it would never fill with petrol) .... Then hook it straight to the charcoal canister ... Using a "T" piece so I can also plumb in the over-pressure valve.

I don't understand why they used that separator rather than just running the breather line higher than the filler :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.

[bee utey]

Out of interest you will fill the secondary tank with your modification, but how will you pickup fuel from it. I'm guessing you run multiple tank pumps with one way valves in there output lines?
Nothing of the sort.


They will be joined under the chassis by hose.


The lowest point of the sub tank (the drain plug) will be joined under the chassis rail to the lowest point of the main tank and the fuel will be drawn from that tank as per usual. The EFI pump assembly in the sub tank will be reduced to the function of a hole plug.


Thinking about this. Why don't we just ignore the separation tank (what a crazy idea). If I could get a simple 'T' piece I'd run the tank vent line up high into the wheel arch (higher than the filler tube so in theory it would never fill with petrol) .... Then hook it straight to the charcoal canister ... Using a "T" piece so I can also plumb in the over-pressure valve.

I don't understand why they used that separator rather than just running the breather line higher than the filler :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.


Land Rover designed the filler pipe assembly, it does work quite well and should work just as well with your sub tank so long as you don't over fill it or have massive holes into the passenger space. Raising the breather does nothing if your filler cap is in good condition as no fuel can escape there.

[DoubleChevron]

Nothing of the sort.




The lowest point of the sub tank (the drain plug) will be joined under the chassis rail to the lowest point of the main tank and the fuel will be drawn from that tank as per usual. The EFI pump assembly in the sub tank will be reduced to the function of a hole plug.




Land Rover designed the filler pipe assembly, it does work quite well and should work just as well with your sub tank so long as you don't over fill it or have massive holes into the passenger space. Raising the breather does nothing if your filler cap is in good condition as no fuel can escape there.

Oh, I'm not good at reading stuff am I :)

With the separation tank breather, it has nothing to do with the filler assembly. It's hooked to the vent on the top of the tank .... The other side of the separation tank runs forward to the charcaol canister. it's just built into the filler tube as I guess that was the easiest place to attach it.

Oh bugger, running the line up high will not help. As the tank can be slightly pressurised, we can readily push raw petrol up into that separator due to pressure build up in the tank if the tank is full. (ie: filled to the top of the filler tube so the bowser has cut out). Now I think about it. If you fill the tank to the top, buy design it's going to push raw fuel forward to the charcoal canister.

If you fill it on a cold morning, then park the car in the sun on a hot day, the fuel will expand and pressurise the main tank... which will push the fuel up the breather line into the separation tank. If the pressure is great (ie: very cold when filled, very hot at the end of the day) that tiny separator tank will fill with petrol and possibly overflow, then the petrol will be drawn into the charcoal as soon as the charcoal canisters vent solenoid opens to allow the engine to burn the fumes.

This is a really silly design. I'm sure it works somewhere where it doesn't get really hot so the petrol expands a lot.

seeya.
Shane L.

[PhilipA]

The expansion tank is supposed to act as a buffer to absorb the amount of fuel that will be pushed out from petrol expansion, and then flow back into the tank as fuel is used or cooled to stop raw fuel getting into the charcoal canister., and you sure do not want that.
There is a different design of steel expansion tank on earlier models which looks to have a bigger volume and AFAIR sits higher in the guard.

Just pay attention to this as it was a real PITA when I had an inside LR tank although I never had fumes as all vents were sealed in the inner guard.

Anyway it looks like you are well on the way to solving the problem.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

One final reply before I give up in frustration. The expansion space you need for normal duty is the part of the petrol tank above the line of the fuel pump assembly's mounting face. If properly designed, a fuel tank causes the servo's delivery nozzle to click off at this level, usually by having the fill pipes dip into the tank at that level. It's when fools think that they can trickle fill a tank to the very brim that problems appear in this scenario. The separator's job is to ensure that fuel splash doesn't make it into the charcoal canister line, it does not take the place of the tank's own expansion space.

[gavinwibrow]

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Shane - this might work - ordered but not used as yet, so can't comment.

[DoubleChevron]

One final reply before I give up in frustration. The expansion space you need for normal duty is the part of the petrol tank above the line of the fuel pump assembly's mounting face. If properly designed, a fuel tank causes the servo's delivery nozzle to click off at this level, usually by having the fill pipes dip into the tank at that level. It's when fools think that they can trickle fill a tank to the very brim that problems appear in this scenario. The separator's job is to ensure that fuel splash doesn't make it into the charcoal canister line, it does not take the place of the tank's own expansion space.

I feel your frustration :angel:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/classic-range-rover/104180d1452465705-3-9-v8-temperature-sender-aux-tank.jpg

THis will work as you describe. The vent and filler pipe are a tiny amount down from the top of the tank. So like you say ... space for expansion.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/classic-range-rover/104163d1452427921-3-9-v8-temperature-sender-p1180085.jpg

This tank *is* going to fill to 102% capacity. The other 2% being the filler pipe. It'll click out when the sucker is FULL See the fittings are on the top of the tank. In normal filling it's going to fill to the top of the filler neck leaving no air space in the tank. The funny little separation tank is going to have act as an expansion tank too.

I learnt something today, I'd never realised before a correctly designed tanks doesn't fill right to the top. Now I think about it, all my cars petrol tanks always leave a small air gap at the top!

I just thought of another possibility.... I'll check the vent tube and filler tube tonight... possibly the filler and vent pipe on the top of that tank drops an inch down into the tank so an air space is left at the top. I can't imagine LRA would make such a mistake when they make tanks as a living. So I'm sure this will all work fine once I've fixed up the breathers.

seeya,
shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

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Shane - this might work - ordered but not used as yet, so can't comment.

That stuff is nothing short of brilliant on radiators. Years ago my father car blew out a big hole in it's alloy water pump. He dropped a bolt into it to fill most of the hole and mixed up some of that stuff and put over the top.

Amazingly that repair the pump and we were able to refill the car with coolant and drive it home. About 2years later when he finally got around to changing the water pump is was still as good as the day he applied it :cool: :D

It would be to brittle for a repair involving plastic. I tried to get some screw in brass fittings today from enzed and they suggested this:

Molytec – 3565 High Pressure Pipe Sealant (http://molytec.com.au/product/6309/)

http://molytec.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/ulatr11.jpg

It does say for metal threads, so I'm hoping the fact it's screwed into plastic will mean it's ok. It's entirely possible this will stay immersed in petrol whenever the tank is filled, so I don't want to use anything unless it says it's suitable for petrol. Which this stuff does.

You know, I'm going to assemble this sucker... throw it on the trailer and fill it on the way to work .... When I drive home that night I'll see if there is any petrol leaking out after its sat in the sun all day at work on the trailer. If there's not, I'll know it's fixed and done !

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104211&stc=1&d=1452502840

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104212&stc=1&d=1452502840

This tank will fill straight to the top .... no expansion space :( I'm going to have to find out it's capacity and fill it by 3 litres less to give some expansion room rather than letting the bowser drop out. All they had to do was weld in tubes that recessed into the tank say 1/2" and there would have been plenty of expansion space. I don't understand why a tank manufacturer would do this ?

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104213&stc=1&d=1452502840

I drilled this out and threaded the fitting in. You know ... it still leaked a lot of air. it's so ovalised from manufacture you would need to drill it out to the point where it's to weak to use to make it "round".

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104214&stc=1&d=1452502840

We will see how this sealer works with plastic tomorrow.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104215&stc=1&d=1452502840

Oh yeah, if your thinking the top of the tank is crowned to provide and expansion space ..... Nope!

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104233&stc=1&d=1452513065

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104232&stc=1&d=1452513065

Well that was un-expected. The pump seal is perfect. No way am I pulling that out. So it must be the wiring connector that weeps :confused: If it's not damp anywhere when I fill the tank I won't worry about it.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104231&d=1452512948

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104230&stc=1&d=1452513065

If that sealer if fuel proof .... I'm done!! I'l give it 24hours to dry, then fill it until the petrol bowser clicks out and see if we get leaks. I can blow into the filler and it holds pressure without leakage. I carefully wire brushed everywhere with a stainless steel brush before assembly to clean it.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

32.2 litres is the magic number ....

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104258&stc=1&d=1452583434

It seems fume free and almost leak free .... I'm guessing this will be damp until the tank get down to about 20litres. Does the electrical connection pop out so I can seal it up :confused:

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Well it's all back together and smell free now ................................... I just pried that wiring connector up and cleaned/sealed under it.........................

It's just a bloody crying shame the damn thing now doesn't want to run on petrol ..................:wallbash: :wallbash: :Rolling:

I'm taking bets, has the pump died at an opportune time .... the electrical connection pulled apart..... Or have I hooked up the pipes on the top of the damn pump backwards (I didn't realise they were identical connectors until I had the tank out and hoses unlabeled. :wasntme:

seeya,
shane L.

[Homestar]

Oops... :D

Check your lines first, but if it has a few KM on it, I would have taken the opportunity to bung a new pump in - I've just done this on mine and boy, what a difference from the old tied one - the car starts almost instantly now rather than cranking for 5 seconds before spluttering into life.

[DoubleChevron]

Oops... :D

Check your lines first, but if it has a few KM on it, I would have taken the opportunity to bung a new pump in - I've just done this on mine and boy, what a difference from the old tied one - the car starts almost instantly now rather than cranking for 5 seconds before spluttering into life.

Now that's interesting, both the ones here crank for about 5seconds to start on petrol. But starting on gas is instantaneous. First crank of the starter it's away!

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

Well I didn't bother swapping the lines or checking the wiring or anything.... You see I didn't want to admit it to myself, but once again I'd been a moron.

I took these piccies of the fuel pump when I sealed up the wiring.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/456.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/457.jpg

I noted when I pried this out .... The was only 2wires there, so I wondered why there was a 3wire plug.... But chose to ignore this as it all looks untouched and obviously works. Yes, I should do some :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:

So all the fun of pulling the bloody tank out and re-installing again :censored: Hey 2nd time around is always easier right ... I've found 3rd and 4th times get even faster and easier too :wasntme: :thumbsdown:

I've been trying to avoid doing everything multiple times by doing it right the first time .... Oneday, I'll succeed in actually achieving this :angel:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/458.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/459.jpg

I see that soldering and can feel my blood pressure rising and can remember the frustration and anger instantly. I've done HEAPS of this soldering in the past. I have at least 5 soldering irons here .... and no matter the size of them (even the old massive 240volt weller I own ) they solder just like this. You see the iron is *JUST* getting hot enough to melt the solder, but not hot enough to heat what your soldering too. So you end up melting everything, but not actually ever getting it hot enough solder anything together. It's not that you can't solder, it's the god damn irons are crap.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/460.jpg

I fed the wiring up through the top ...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/461.jpg

filed a nice clean connection for soldering.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/462.jpg

Lovely .... I could NOT go back to not having a decent soldering iron. If your struggling with **** like above. It's NOT you .... You NEED a decent soldering iron.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/01/463.jpg

my wife bought me one of these for a birthday present years a few years back.... A superscope iron. It's a revelation using one of these suckers with seemingly endless power after all the other cheap irons I've tried to solder with in the past. The seemingly impossible becomes simple and effortless.

Finally a fume free car that runs on both petrol and LPG :)

seeya,
Shane L.