Oh ****, petrol in the D4!

[mojo]

So the starting problems I mentioned in another thread have been investigated by Austral, and apparently we (the missus) has put petrol in the D4. Obviously not covered under warranty, and we are looking at around $18k to fix.:mad:

It all seems a bit odd to me, as the car was seemed to be running fine for 2 or 3 days (probably around 100km's) after she filled up, other than the starting issues described in my other thread. The engine didn't seem to be noisy or running rough at all.

Anyway, we now have to decide what to do - we have an extended warranty which has another 2 years left. Basically the whole fuel system needs to be replaced. If Austral do the work, any components they replace (injectors, fuel pump etc) will still be covered under warranty. Or is it worthwhile getting MR Auto to do the work, as they'll probably be a fair bit cheaper? The problem then becomes that the replaced components, and probably the engine, won't be covered by the warranty.

Not sure what to do ...

[Marty90]

Check with your insurance company.I've read on here somewhere that this could be covered.

[mojo]

Yep, did that not covered by Suncorp.

Sorry, accidentally put this in the Deefer section, could a mod please move it to the D4 section?

[DoubleChevron]

Yep, did that not covered by Suncorp.

Sorry, accidentally put this in the Deefer section, could a mod please move it to the D4 section?

I'd sure as hell be just draining the tank and refilling and seeing if it runs properly....... No way would I pay that sort of $$$$ without first verifying there is actually and issue :eek:

[chuck]

Mojo

Did the misfuelling device work.

How much was put in?

If the misfuelling device did not work would that then trigger a warranty claim?

Good luck

[weeds]

Wonder why the whole fuel system is buggered....

I filled my hilux with unleaded....there was less than 1/4 of a tank. I drove 30km, than it wouldn't start.

Not sure what the repair cost but pretty sure it was under $1k....

I thought all these modern diesel systems would be similar?

chuck does have a good point, I was telling guys at work just yesterday about the misfuelling device.

[LandyAndy]

Mojo

Did the misfuelling device work.

How much was put in?

If the misfuelling device did not work would that then trigger a warranty claim?

Good luck

If you are used to putting the diesel nozzle only just in,the missfuel device wont help,you have to stick the ulp nozzle a fair way in to trigger it,I discovered this trying to put a funnel in to fill from a jerry can.
Andrew

[mojo]

Mojo

Did the misfuelling device work.

How much was put in?

If the misfuelling device did not work would that then trigger a warranty claim?

Good luck

No, the misfuel device didn't activate. Assuming this happened the last time she refuelled, she thinks it was around half a tank.

I'll certainly query them further tomorrow about why it didn't activate.

[LRD414]

I'll certainly query them further tomorrow about why it didn't activate.
And perhaps what investigation has been done to confirm that the complete $18k recon is actually required. I think I recall reading threads where the vehicle protected itself reasonably well (sorry can't recall when or details).

Scott

[mojo]

Wonder why the whole fuel system is buggered....

I filled my hilux with unleaded....there was less than 1/4 of a tank. I drove 30km, than it wouldn't start.

Not sure what the repair cost but pretty sure it was under $1k....

I thought all these modern diesel systems would be similar?

chuck does have a good point, I was telling guys at work just yesterday about the misfuelling device.

I don't think they're necessarily saying its all buggered, but the recommended LR procedure for this is to replace it all. That way the full new car warranty stays in place. If we just get part of the job done, then I guest we run the risk of not being covered for future issues.

[WhiteD3]

18k is an outrageous sum of money. I'm sure MR or Greg Tunstall could get it going for much less.

[LRD414]

I don't think they're necessarily saying its all buggered, but the recommended LR procedure for this is to replace it all. That way the full new car warranty stays in place. If we just get part of the job done, then I guest we run the risk of not being covered for future issues.
Ahh I see. Then it becomes more of a cost/risk trade-off decision. ie, banking most of the $18k now against potentially non-covered warranty problems in the future. Difficult decision but I think I'd keep the maximum dollars in my pocket when you're talking that much. And being more certain how badly it's actually gone wrong. Also, there is a reasonable chance that a future warranty issue would be non-engine related and therefore still covered anyway.

Scott

[LandyAndy]

Is the main damage to the injectors,or wont they tell you that????
Andrew

[mojo]

Yeah, I realise I can get it fixed for a lot less. In fact the guy at Austral said the same, he's been very good and up front about our options. It really just a question of whether we want to maintain the full warranty, or risk some components not being covered. I think in the end the simple fact is we can't afford 18k at the moment, so I doubt we'll be taking that option.

[DoubleChevron]

If the only issue is it's hard to start ..... Just drain the sucker, change the filters and bleed fresh fuel through ..... Why replace anything unless it's proven broken :confused:

[mojo]

Is the main damage to the injectors,or wont they tell you that????
Andrew

I don't think they've got that far yet. Once they determined there was petrol in the system, they rang us to see what we wanted to do, as its no longer a warranty claim.

[Bytemrk]

Before I considered the pro's and con's of different solutions to the problem , I'd be seeking at least 1 second opinion to confirm the initial diagnosis.

[Fitzy2011]

I put 40 litres of unleaded to fill my tank in my D3 and it stopped within 12klms. I had it towed and had it drained, fuel lines flushed, new filter and it ran for about a month, but then the High Pressure Fuel Pump died. All up about $2200.00 and then no more problems. I ran it for another 30,000 before I sold it but it ran like a dream. Do more investigation before agreeing to that sort of money!

[scarry]

If you are used to putting the diesel nozzle only just in,the missfuel device wont help,you have to stick the ulp nozzle a fair way in to trigger it,I discovered this trying to put a funnel in to fill from a jerry can.
Andrew

And also once the missfueling device does trip,you are still able to dribble fuel in.

If you have the fuel receipt,it would be interesting to see what type of fuel is on the receipt.

If it was me,i would be having a chat with MR.

[shanegtr]

Looking at it from a pure $$ point of view, 18K is a lot of money. If you can get it fixed for significantly less - lets just work with $5k for an example - Straight up a $13k saving I would think that's worth a lot more to you then saving your full warranty

[scarry]

Yep, did that not covered by Suncorp.

Are you sure?

I asked them a couple of years ago and i am sure they said it was covered,but maybe it was for dirty fuel only?

[Meken]

I would be pursuing the faulty misfuel device warranty claim avenue. Either the misfuel device is there to stop misfueling and in your case it didn't - so it's faulty or the thing isn't fit for purpose - so then there is a consumer law avenue.
Also where in the warranty does it say warranty will be void on future failure of a component because it was misfuelled? Either the component has been damaged and needs replacing or it hasn't and is fit for purpose and the warranty needs to be honoured. Just my annoyed 2c worth. How can the fuel system cost more than the engine?

[Meken]

I put 40 litres of unleaded to fill my tank in my D3 and it stopped within 12klms. I had it towed and had it drained, fuel lines flushed, new filter and it ran for about a month, but then the High Pressure Fuel Pump died. All up about $2200.00 and then no more problems. I ran it for another 30,000 before I sold it but it ran like a dream. Do more investigation before agreeing to that sort of money!


What's to say the misfuel lead to the hpfp failure? It may have been going to fail anyway?

[Meken]

Before I considered the pro's and con's of different solutions to the problem , I'd be seeking at least 1 second opinion to confirm the initial diagnosis.


Yep definitely get 2nd opinion if you can. Years ago I asked Subaru dealer about a bit of a noise the missus thought the wrx engine was making - $4000 later new big end bearings... Thing was it sounded the same to me when I got it back, and I'm not sure what they looked like new but I couldn't see any signs of damage on the old bearings .

[Graeme]

What's to say the misfuel lead to the hpfp failure? It may have been going to fail anyway?The most damage will be to the HPFP because petrol does not lubricate the pump. The injectors are less likely to have suffered damage but may still end-up having to be changed.

[ADMIRAL]

Mojo,

You haven't said where you are with the vehicle. In most cases, the first step is to drain the fuel, flush new fuel through the system, and then replace the fuel filter. My D4 has had this occur twice. In the first instance, we realised what had occurred, and the vehicle was not run with the petrol in the tank. The second instance, the D4 made it to my driveway, and then wouldn't start. I quick question and answer with the wife, and a good sniff of the fuel tank confirmed the worst. We drained the fuel etc, as above, and have had no further issues. In discussion with the dealer, they indicated that they see it all the time, from VW's, LR's, BM's Mercs etc. Very rarely does it result in any serious mechanical issue. The modern diesel does seem to be more durable than we give it credit. It seems running the vehicle long term with a petrol diluted diesel in the tank will do some damage. If it stops it saves further damage.

[theresanothersteve]

I put 40 litres of unleaded to fill my tank in my D3 and it stopped within 12klms. I had it towed and had it drained, fuel lines flushed, new filter and it ran for about a month, but then the High Pressure Fuel Pump died. All up about $2200.00 and then no more problems. I ran it for another 30,000 before I sold it but it ran like a dream. Do more investigation before agreeing to that sort of money!

We had a similar experience, except it was almost a full tank and the missus only got a kilometer down the road.

We had the fuel system drained and cleaned and thought we got away with it, but about 20,000 kms later the high pressure fuel pump died. Our spanner twirler is pretty sure the pump died prematurely as a result of the mis-fuel. Fortunatley we were due for a major service changing all the belts etc, so doing it at the same time meant the repair didn't cost as much (relatively speaking).

[jonesy63]

The most damage will be to the HPFP because petrol does not lubricate the pump. The injectors are less likely to have suffered damage but may still end-up having to be changed.

I agree with Graeme. During the redesign phase of the Euro IV HPFP front bearing on D3 - the outcome is that there are shards of metal sent from the HPFP - through to injectors... and there is also a fuel return line to tank, where the metal returns. I had HPFP replaced several times... the last couple included replacing injectors. The very last repair replaced the whole fuel system - tank to injectors, both pumps, cooler, etc. That was a $17k warranty job about 6 years ago!

Good luck Mojo!

[Dark61]

If the only issue is it's hard to start ..... Just drain the sucker, change the filters and bleed fresh fuel through ..... Why replace anything unless it's proven broken :confused:


yep - do this first - the BIL just done something similar and he drained the whole system changed the filters put some new diesel in it , started it up and it sounded like a bag of nails , took it for a drive and it settled down.
cheers,
D

[winaje]

I have seen this happen (to my ex-boss' car, SWMBO filled with petrol by accedien), the vehicle was driven until it stopped. He was quoted $17500 by local LR dealer. I refered him to an Indie I know and trust, they replaced the HPFP and filter etc after draining the tank.. D4 works perfectly, according to owner. Repair cost $7k, saved owner $10k...!

[p38arover]

Are you sure?

I asked them a couple of years ago and i am sure they said it was covered,but maybe it was for dirty fuel only?

I raised this question during a coffee break with an NRMA patrolman a couple of weeks back. He's been to a few of these (not LR). He's replaced the filter, drained the tank and, in most cases, all has been well.

He did mention the insurance companies no longer cover it.

[DiscoMick]

I'd get legal advice about making a warranty claim on the basis the misfuelling device failed to perform as promised, leading to the damage.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[vnx205]

People are suggesting that the damage is caused by the fact that petrol does not provide the same lubrication as diesel.

If that is correct, then how much lubrication is needed to avoid damage?

If the tank was still 1/4 full of diesel and it was topped up with petrol, would there be enough lubrication to survive a few kilometres?

Might that be the reason some people seem to have avoided expensive repairs while others who had less diesel left in the tank didn't have enough lubrication available and suffered the consequences?

Could it be that if your tank was stlll almost half full of diesel, you stand a good chance of getting away with it and that if the tank was almost bone dry you will almost certainly be facing a big bill?

[ADMIRAL]

People are suggesting that the damage is caused by the fact that petrol does not provide the same lubrication as diesel.

If that is correct, then how much lubrication is needed to avoid damage?

If the tank was still 1/4 full of diesel and it was topped up with petrol, would there be enough lubrication to survive a few kilometres?

Might that be the reason some people seem to have avoided expensive repairs while others who had less diesel left in the tank didn't have enough lubrication available and suffered the consequences?

Could it be that if your tank was stlll almost half full of diesel, you stand a good chance of getting away with it and that if the tank was almost bone dry you will almost certainly be facing a big bill?

If the petrol to diesel ratio is high, the vehicle will not run, or at least not start. Saves the day. If there is a low ratio of petrol in the mix, it may run, but will be rough. I guess if you persist in using the vehicle under these conditions, damage may result.

As a matter of interest, the fuel save device is useless when service stations have different size nozzles for the different octanes. My first incident was at a BP garage, and the nozzle for petrol ( can't recall for which octane ) was the same size as the diesel. I have since removed the fuel save device. The best way to check you have the correct fuel selected, is to check the price and fuel type when it comes up on the pump. No point in relying on a mechanical block when there are so many variables in the fuel delivery setups at service stations.

[Nicky]

Good advice!

[Celtoid]

Why is this a warranty question? Sorry but.


Owner puts wrong fuel in the car .... It's clearly posted on the car and the pump .....


Why is this a warranty issue?

[Meken]

I was told on collection that there is a misfuel device that prevents you putting petrol in instead of diesel - device obviously failed as the wife put petrol in

[RHS58]

I was told on collection that there is a misfuel device that prevents you putting petrol in instead of diesel - device obviously failed as the wife put petrol in

It's definitely a question worth asking of LR.
I'd bet the initial response will be in the negative.
Then worth asking again though and pushing the issue.

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
Drain the fuel, refill with diesel change the filters, bleed as best you can and go for a start. See how it goes. Whilst warranty would be a nice option as mentioned I don't think you will get very far with this. The vehicle has diesel written everywhere, the diesel bowser you filled up from also has diesel written on it, petrol was chosen.
Friend did the same recently with his Jeep, drained it out and ran it, still going fine his was only three weeks old. That was what Jeep did not him himself, Jeep maybe not the best example however that's what happened.
Hope you have a favourable outcome.

Cheers Marty

[Celtoid]

I was told on collection that there is a misfuel device that prevents you putting petrol in instead of diesel - device obviously failed as the wife put petrol in


Don't get me wrong, I'm sympathetic to the OP, I'd hope that LR are too 'cause mistakes do happen. However, the reality is they may not cover operator error. That's my only point.


Being an owner of D4s for over 5 years now and fairly familiar with the mis-fuelling device, it's nothing more of an alert that you have tried to put the wrong fuel hose down the hole, it's not activated by fuel type. The device can be triggered by Jerry Can fillers and fuel funnels.


The most noteworthy part is the fact that you can still add fuel to the car with the device deployed .... it just takes longer and the nozzle won't go in as far.


I know this 'cause I refuelled my car a couple of times with the mis-fuel device deployed (after using a Jerry whilst camping) and didn't even realise. I just thought the fuel bowsers were a bit temperamental. It was only when the sunlight illuminated the refuel hole at just the right angle, that I saw the colour of the device.


So the device in this case maybe didn't fail, it's just not designed (for whatever reason) to completely block the filler. Maybe in case the owner doesn't have the tool with them or such like. So rather than strand the owner, it 'MAY' alert them to the problem but still allow them to fuel up (hopefully with the correct fuel). I notice the OP states that the device hadn't deployed at all .... which is an issue. However, after the fact, trying to 'prove' to LR that this is an issue could be difficult .... unless it still doesn't work maybe.


I didn't notice mine deploy but was struggling singlehandedly with the Jerry and filler hose at the time. Maybe it would have been more obvious if it had happened using a standard bowser?

[AndyG]

After a misfuel would you also change the engine oil? Or overly paranoid

[shanegtr]

Not really necessary unless its dumped a heap of fuel in the oil causing a fuel dilution issue.

[AndyG]

But how would you average punter know. I imagine even 1% is too much

[shanegtr]

Oil sampling is the only way to know for sure. Anything over 2-2.5% I would consider excessive. Fuel dilution the issue is more the reduction in viscosity which is the problem. The other side affect is the risk of crank case explosion.

[scarry]

Just change the oil and then forget about it,if there are any concerns.

That would be the very least of your problems,and the $ value of the oil change would be buggar all compared with the whole job.

[mojo]

Sorry for the lack of updates, we've just been away camping on Bribie for the last week. So after querying LR about the fact that the misfuel device failed to activate, the response we received was that this was only there to assist and that at the end of the day it's the driver's responsibility to put the correct fuel in the tank.

So we have now had the car towed to M.R, on the assumption that what ever work needs to be done will probably be considerably cheaper with them than Austral. I have to say that Austral were very good throughout the whole process, and completely understanding when we told them we were sending the car to M.R.

Hopefully the guys at M.R will get a chance to look at it this week. Fingers crossed the damage isn't too bad.

[Bytemrk]

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you Mojo.

[mojo]

Well $800 later, we have the D4 back on the road. M.R drained it and flushed the fuel system, new fuel filter, changed the oil, and so far no problems. Hopefully we don't get any related problems down the track, the M.R guys seemed pretty confident it would be OK.

[loanrangie]

Oil sampling is the only way to know for sure. Anything over 2-2.5% I would consider excessive. Fuel dilution the issue is more the reduction in viscosity which is the problem. The other side affect is the risk of crank case explosion.

Diesel engines only inject fuel after the compression stroke so how can the viscosity be an issue ? , different with a petrol engine as it is compressed before ignition and there for can leak past the rings onto the bores and into the sump.
Obviously the fuel lines and pump may suffer but then again they use fuel resistant hoses/seals.

[Eevo]

this jumped up on my youtube vids today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL9-i9tcESU

not the same car but i found it interesting

[chuck]

Mojo

All the best with it, hope it works out long term.

Probably a pity you went to the dealer first (hindsight is 20/20)

Cheers