Td5 vs tdci

[1nando]

Well....

After participating in a very entertaining and enlightening disco4 vs puma thread i thought we could break down the advantages and disadvantages of a td5 vs a td4.

Why?

Eveytime I've been out and seen someone in a td5 ive been told the old "after the td5 it was all down hill from there" speech.

Now this is my opinion, make of it what you will and feel free to correct anything:

-the puma has the better engine in my opinion. Yes the td5 sounds better but the tdci is a "light truck" diesel engine with better overall performance. It is heavily down tuned from factory to cope with various fuel qualities and responds well to modification. It has also proven to be a long life engine with ford transits ticking over hundreds of thousands of kms with no issues.
- the getrag gearbox is a better box than its predecessor. Its 6 speed and seems to have a perfect gear for every situation. Highway driving is a pleasant experience with 6th gear offering a nice refined touch. The gearbox originally had issues in the mustangs but the issue was rectified and is a solid unit and can cope a beating. The ford rangers also share this box.
- the dash contiues to offer a utilitarian feel but is more appealing and more functional. I can easily reach everything and the controls have a nice feel to them.
- the traction control is excellent. Works extremely well. I still remeber the first time it came on and got me through an area where i was convinced i was going to struggle. Impressive
- the air conditioning and heater works really well. Excellent compared to the td5
- i have a 2013 110 which has the upgraded rubber seals, massive improvement.

Where the puma lacks in my opinion is:
-the rear diff was a step backwards compared to the sailsbury (early td5s). Ive had 3 rear diffs but to be fair and using hindsite i should have only had one. My issue all along was my flanges and rear axels. Since i got a rebuilt/reconditioned unit i have had no dramas at all. Since then ive added a e-locker, hituff axels and HD flanges all round. Very happy and i am convinced this is more than sufficient for my needs.
- rear axels are weaker
- td5 sounds nicer with exhaust mods. This doesn't really help its capability but lets face it.....it sounds great!
-probably/slightly better rust protection on the chassis. This is probably a bit "hit and miss" but most people would probably agree.

Thoughts peoples?????

The "can of worms" has been opened..:p

[PAT303]

I'd never own a Td5 simply because the 10% increase in performance over the Tdi doesn't justify the 100% increase in running costs.LR should have opened the Tdi to 2.8ltre and fitted unit injection and a VNT and never gone to the Td5,they should have added more metal to the rover diff internals and axles and changed from spiral bevel to hypoid at the same time and never bothered with the sals or P38 as well,just those changes would have made all of our lives and the LR name much easier to live with. Pat

[Wicks89]

Agree re the 10% increase in power and 100% increase in cost. The price jump between tdi and td5 spares is massive.

Pumas are clearly an upgrade, but im pretty chuffed with my td5.

[loanrangie]

The td5 should have been 3ltr then instead of the courier van lump we could have had the 3.2 tdci like the ranger /bt ****ty.

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[squizzyhunter]

Ah I thought it was a typo, I gather tdci is the puma engine then....
Every days a school day!

Buy a complete tdi from paddocks and put it in the puma

[rangieman]

Having owned a Tdi Deefer then a Td5 Deefer and now own a D2a Td5 disco and since have had a drive in tdci (Chops 110).
My opinion is a Td5 and why you ask so many silly puma issues .But i do like the smooth delivery of power with the tdci .
And what a load of B/S about Td5`s costing 100% more in running cost`s .
I have owned two Td5`s and also two Tdi`s the difference in running cost`s is no way near that maybe at a guess 10 to 20 % absolute max in my opinion . Td5 has never left me strandard nor has a Tdi.
I do all my own service and repairs so the labour cost and time is nothing to me only the cost of parts ;)
Oh a Td5 can also have a rather big power increase with a few tweaks .

[PAT303]

You are drawing a very long bow saying the TDCi has silly issue's,there has been a couple of engine failures for sure but overall they are travelling along just fine,something that cannot be said of the Td5.The Td5 and Tdi can be tweaked but so can the TDCi,to levels way above anything the the other two can reach.Regarding the cost difference between the Tdi and Td5 just price parts,alternators,starters and especially cylinder head costs,the Td5 is painfully exxy. Pat

[PAT303]

The td5 should have been 3ltr then instead of the courier van lump we could have had the 3.2 tdci like the ranger /bt ****ty.

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Just to put the whole 3.2ltre matter to bed,it was never going into the Defender for the simple reason that it got cleared for production after the TDCi defender was,you can't fit a motor into a vehicle that hadn't been made yet. Pat

[loanrangie]

Just to put the whole 3.2ltre matter to bed,it was never going into the Defender for the simple reason that it got cleared for production after the TDCi defender was,you can't fit a motor into a vehicle that hadn't been made yet. Pat

I never said it would , just what could have been . The 3.2 could have been a contender as an upgrade to the 2.4 but instead they went backwards with the 2.2.

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[Wicks89]

I think the td5 and tdci comparison is a little apples and oranges really. I mean, 1999 vs 2007 you know?
If the tdci wasnt any better than the td5 at anything, they never would have changed it. So thats that, a tdci will blow off my td5. But so it should.

Td5 components ARE more expensive than tdi parts. Fact. You find td5 parts as cheap as tdi ones please send me a link i would be much obliged.

Theres nothing wrong with the td5, nor tdi, nor tdci. All statistically reliable. People are funny, they drive a car everyday, in varying conditions, expect it to be powerful, haul loads, cop a hiding off road and when it breaks they cry:

"OH MY GOD ****ING LAND ROVER/PEUGEOT/NISSAN/TOYOTA/OTHER BRAND I AM SO DONE."
If it was a horse it would have run away! Dont get me wrong, people get unlucky, but its just that. Luck. Also, stuff wears out! They get used, and by extension, used up! You do t have the same thing at 400,000km that you had at 15km.

Anyway, my td5 has copped the worst of it, i service it myself, i fix it when it breaks, and its simple enough to understand and troubleshoot. Never driven a puma, but i gather theyre very nice. BUT DO YOU HAVE BONNET VENTS???

I rest my case.

[debruiser]

........ Never driven a puma, but i gather theyre very nice. BUT DO YOU HAVE BONNET VENTS???

I rest my case.


I have a Puma, and I love it.
I would give my left leg for bonnet vents! would even sacrifice the AC for it.

I've never driven a TD5 so I guess my opinion is almost invalid but I like my 2.2TDCi (i've got a D90) most of the time it has enough power although there is always that time it'd be great to have just a bit more. The gearbox is great, like someone else mentioned, it gives you a gear for everything it's just up to you to pick the right one. In saying that though, city driving can be a PIA if your like me and use 5th around town, it's an extra shift every time you stop/start and I'm sure that all the drivers who follow me hate when I change to 2nd at 10km/hr...

If I had to re-power my D90, then I would seriously consider shoehorning a 3.2 from a ranger into it, but then of course I'd probably need all those fancy tough axles and stuff.

[1nando]

I have a Puma, and I love it.
I would give my left leg for bonnet vents! would even sacrifice the AC for it.

I've never driven a TD5 so I guess my opinion is almost invalid but I like my 2.2TDCi (i've got a D90) most of the time it has enough power although there is always that time it'd be great to have just a bit more. The gearbox is great, like someone else mentioned, it gives you a gear for everything it's just up to you to pick the right one. In saying that though, city driving can be a PIA if your like me and use 5th around town, it's an extra shift every time you stop/start and I'm sure that all the drivers who follow me hate when I change to 2nd at 10km/hr...

If I had to re-power my D90, then I would seriously consider shoehorning a 3.2 from a ranger into it, but then of course I'd probably need all those fancy tough axles and stuff.

The 2.2 is a great engine, it is however down tuned in the defender. LR has done this intentionally becuase of poor fuel in certain markets.
A decat, intercooler and remap will increase your HP to around 150 and torque to about 450. This pretty much puts it on par with the 3.2 ;)

[debruiser]

The 2.2 is a great engine, it is however down tuned in the defender. LR has done this intentionally becuase of poor fuel in certain markets.
A decat, intercooler and remap will increase your HP to around 150 and torque to about 450. This pretty much puts it on par with the 3.2 ;)

that sounds like a lot of money.... saw the group buy for the remap $2000 wasn't it.... ouch. yes I know I just mentioned buying a 3.2, but that was IF i needed a new engine, I wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

[Tusker]

The TD5 was also released in a low state of tune, to cope with crap diesel in some markets. So it takes mild chip upgrades & bigger intercoolers without any loss in reliability.

If you run the tank dry, a TD5 will self prime & start. What does the Puma handbook say - take it to a dealer?

As for Tdi running costs, been there done that. The clutch is too small, pumps & injectors need attention every 100,000 kms or so, head gaskets about every 160,000.

Just an aside I had a look at a Puma, couldn't find the inertia switch. Do they have one?

Regards
Max P

[debruiser]

The TD5 was also released in a low state of tune, to cope with crap diesel in some markets. So it takes mild chip upgrades & bigger intercoolers without any loss in reliability.

If you run the tank dry, a TD5 will self prime & start. What does the Puma handbook say - take it to a dealer? Haven't tested it, but they are supposed to 'self-prime', I thought I read somewhere that the computer shuts them down just before they run out so it's just a matter of tossing in some more fuel and restarting

As for Tdi running costs, been there done that. The clutch is too small, pumps & injectors need attention every 100,000 kms or so, head gaskets about every 160,000.

Just an aside I had a look at a Puma, couldn't find the inertia switch. Do they have one? No idea.... dealer didn't tell me about one, he was pretty comprehensive in his handover, so i'll assume no.

Regards
Max P

My thoughts in Blue....

[1nando]

The TD5 was also released in a low state of tune, to cope with crap diesel in some markets. So it takes mild chip upgrades & bigger intercoolers without any loss in reliability.

If you run the tank dry, a TD5 will self prime & start. What does the Puma handbook say - take it to a dealer?

As for Tdi running costs, been there done that. The clutch is too small, pumps & injectors need attention every 100,000 kms or so, head gaskets about every 160,000.

Just an aside I had a look at a Puma, couldn't find the inertia switch. Do they have one?

Regards
Max P

Actually, if the puma runs out of diesel it keeps the system primed also. As far as i know LR has kept this feature since the td5.

[1nando]

that sounds like a lot of money.... saw the group buy for the remap $2000 wasn't it.... ouch. yes I know I just mentioned buying a 3.2, but that was IF i needed a new engine, I wouldn't be doing it otherwise.

It costs about $3500 fitted and tuned. Thats a lot i know, but when you consider the cost of other modifications it really isnt that much. A new engine would cost twice that amonut.

[vnx205]

If the tdci wasnt any better than the td5 at anything, they never would have changed it.

I thought that change, like just about every engine change in the last couple of decades was done to meet emissions regulations, not necessarily because it was a better engine.

[debruiser]

It costs about $3500 fitted and tuned. Thats a lot i know, but when you consider the cost of other modifications it really isnt that much. A new engine would cost twice that amonut.

the remap isn't plug and play????

[1nando]

the remap isn't plug and play????

Its not plug and play, the standard ecu is simply remapped. When i say fitted and tuned i mean;
- supply intercooler and fit it.
- blank egr with plate
- supply and fit a decat front pipe
- remap standard ecu with egr switched off and new map

[cafe latte]

Clearly the tdi is no good at all. Anyone who has a 130 I can happily take the awful thing off their hands so they can get themselves something better :angel:
Chris

[Disco Muppet]

Td5 is a land rover engine.
Tdci is a Ford engine.
The best way to upgrade a tdci is the 3.2.
Which is a td5 :p
Yes, parts for a td5 are slightly more expensive than for a tdi, no ****. Parts for a vogue are more expensive than those for a freelander.
Besides, td5 doesn't require the driveline to be put at stupid angles to fit.
And the MT82 is a bag of crap imho.
Nice bait though :angel:

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[TimNZ]

Oh good, another thread that is going to descend into a TDCi/Td5/Tdi bashing thread. Been a while since we had one.

Have a good day,

[1nando]

Oh good, another thread that is going to descend into a TDCi/Td5/Tdi bashing thread. Been a while since we had one.

Have a good day,

I love my puma. I love its strengths but also acknowledge its weaknesses. Its up to each individual to be honest with themselves so we can better understand the differences between models.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Just an aside I had a look at a Puma, couldn't find the inertia switch. Do they have one?


Yes they do, It's on the firewall, right in the middle. Can't miss it.

[rangieman]

You are drawing a very long bow saying the TDCi has silly issue's,there has been a couple of engine failures for sure but overall they are travelling along just fine,something that cannot be said of the Td5.The Td5 and Tdi can be tweaked but so can the TDCi,to levels way above anything the the other two can reach.Regarding the cost difference between the Tdi and Td5 just price parts,alternators,starters and especially cylinder head costs,the Td5 is painfully exxy. Pat

Yes there are some issues with the puma as i have had some time under the bonnet with a forum member to help . The most silly ones are the coolant & turbo hose layout with built in rubbing points which is just dumb in a 4wd. Even your upgraded turbo hoses still rub holes and leave you stranded ;).
Dont get me started on plastic intake manifolds and plastic rocker covers :eek:
You say cost of parts on a Td5 and quote parts i have yet to replace on my Td5 but had replaced on a Tdi at less k`s than my Td5 :p
So im guessing by the time a Tdi has done two of each which you quote ive replaced one so the cost is similar overall:p:p
Realy some people have had good runs out of Tdis some have not and the same for other engines mentioned that is the way it pans out;)
It is human nature to defend what we own and justify costs so we are all passionate about our own personal cars:cool:
I think from the start this thread it was doomed like that other and the ones befor comparrison threads :p
Yes im passionate about all LR related cars and dont want to see this end up personal or mine is better . Realy does it matter at the end of the day it is your car and you love it so just enjoy it:D

[AlecW]

Clearly the tdi is no good at all. Anyone who has a 130 I can happily take the awful thing off their hands so they can get themselves something better :angel:
Chris

That made me laugh Chris, you will find your gem!

[PAT303]

Clearly the tdi is no good at all. Anyone who has a 130 I can happily take the awful thing off their hands so they can get themselves something better :angel:
Chris

A mate of mine in Kalgoorlie was in the same boat,he ended up buying a junker off a property and doing it up.It took some work but in the end he got a very good vehicle for a good all up price. Pat

[Slunnie]

Td5 is a land rover engine.
Tdci is a Ford engine.
The best way to upgrade a tdci is the 3.2.
Which is a td5 :p
Yes, parts for a td5 are slightly more expensive than for a tdi, no ****. Parts for a vogue are more expensive than those for a freelander.
Besides, td5 doesn't require the driveline to be put at stupid angles to fit.
And the MT82 is a bag of crap imho.
Nice bait though :angel:

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If they weren't going to use a Land Rover motor, it's a shame they didn't fit the Ranger motor instead of the Transit motor. I've no doubt it would have been a much better option. I would assume that since the Td5 fits into the engine bay the Ranger motor would fit also. Actually, they could have also fit the Ranger auto which would have been a great option to have.

[JayBoRover]

Its not plug and play, the standard ecu is simply remapped. When i say fitted and tuned i mean;
- supply intercooler and fit it.
- blank egr with plate
- supply and fit a decat front pipe
- remap standard ecu with egr switched off and new map
Just to clarify here, as there's a mix of references to TD5 and TDCi in previous posts. The statement from 1nando is correct (I believe - no personal experience) for a TD5 remap but not for the TDCi remap (I know - have done the upgrades to my TDCi). The TDCi BAS upgrade requires changing the ECU for one which is remap-able - so not quite "plug and play". Once the ECU is changed it becomes a simple download from a selection of maps - standard, 150HP or 170HP - true "plug and play". These remaps leave the EGR valve closed through the ECU programming, so no need to fit a blanking plate - so "plug and play". Only the 170HP requires the upgraded intercooler and then only for high ambient temperature situations if you actually want the full 170HP available.

If my D90 had been available brand new with a choice of engines - TDi, TD5 or 2.2 Puma my choice would have been for the Puma 1st, TDi 2nd and TD5 3rd. Any of them would happily be welcome in my garage but the 2.2 is a fantastic little engine. :-)

[rick130]

The Td5 and Tdi can be tweaked but so can the TDCi,to levels way above anything the the other two can reach.

Only what I've been told, but talking to a customer of Bruce Davis and on another occasion a couple of his mechanics and they all said that Bruce and his boys reckon the TD5 probably has more potential and will take more abuse (in terms of able to handle power and torque and stay together) compared to the Tdci.
It was a very impressive design, quite ahead of it's time compared to most all other manufacturers light diesels.
That chat with Bruce's mechanics was from about three years ago so they might think differently now, but they were pushing crazy numbers out of a TD5 test mule on the dyno just to see what it'd take.

[Disco Muppet]

Have heard similar from tuners :)
But I openly admit I'm biased toward the td5 and nearly every post I'll make in this thread is firmly tongue in cheek ;) :p

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[1nando]

Only what I've been told, but talking to a customer of Bruce Davis and on another occasion a couple of his mechanics and they all said that Bruce and his boys reckon the TD5 probably has more potential and will take more abuse (in terms of able to handle power and torque and stay together) compared to the Tdci.
It was a very impressive design, quite ahead of it's time compared to most all other manufacturers light diesels.
That chat with Bruce's mechanics was from about three years ago so they might think differently now, but they were pushing crazy numbers out of a TD5 test mule on the dyno just to see what it'd take.

I would put that down to the level of electronics. The td5 is in my opinion an easier engine to tune.
The tdci is already pretty well setup from factory, there is many different tune levels depending on the vehicle it ends up in.
The bowler defenders are making around 170 to 200 hp and 500 to 550nm without any issues at all.

[Black 110]

Yes there are some issues with the puma as i have had some time under the bonnet with a forum member to help . The most silly ones are the coolant & turbo hose layout with built in rubbing points which is just dumb in a 4wd. Even your upgraded turbo hoses still rub holes and leave you stranded ;).


Just in regards to the rubbing points we all face in the Pumas, I came across this self bonding silicone tape...I keep a couple of rolls handy just on the off chance when I'm out bush :cool:
Hopefully it will do the job to get me back to civilisation!

Rescue Tape - Fix It All with Silicone Rescue Tape (http://www.rescuetapeaustralia.com.au/)

And just on point, all Defenders are awesome...as long as there is a wave!!

[manic]

I think the td5 and tdci comparison is a little apples and oranges really. I mean, 1999 vs 2007 you know?
If the tdci wasnt any better than the td5 at anything, they never would have changed it. So thats that, a tdci will blow off my td5. But so it should.


Actually, the changes are often down to new legislation on new car requirements (emissions, pedestrian safety etc). And then there's the owner change overs. Ford stuck their lump in there because it was on their shelves. The td5 was a landrover engine built for purpose as was the TDI.

[frantic]

Puma v Td5
Plus and minus points,
Far better interior, heated seats heated screen, aircon, and rear seats. TD5, more seats, front vents, easier to replace screen..
Exterior puma, prettier paint on limited editions :D, more metal skin, rest same. Td5 last defender you can put tyre on bonnet.
Suspension/drivetrain, puma sway bars, angles make lift more of a PIA, early feel breather position. Td5 easier to modify/lift, until end 2002 Salisbury diff which is stronger, no sway bars.
Engines, stock puma better, modified??????

Personally own a Td5 nine seat, but would happily have a puma AS WELL. :D
If a local could cost 3.2td5 conversion to older defenders we could have the best of both worlds. :D
,

[rangieman]

Just in regards to the rubbing points we all face in the Pumas, I came across this self bonding silicone tape...I keep a couple of rolls handy just on the off chance when I'm out bush :cool:
Hopefully it will do the job to get me back to civilisation!

Rescue Tape - Fix It All with Silicone Rescue Tape (http://www.rescuetapeaustralia.com.au/)

And just on point, all Defenders are awesome...as long as there is a wave!!

Yes great stuff i carry some just in case i travel with someone driving a puma :p
But it still is not a good engineering design with the tdci . Maybe every tdci should come with some rescue tape in the glovebox standard oh thats right puma`s dont have a glovebox:angel:

[PAT303]

Only what I've been told, but talking to a customer of Bruce Davis and on another occasion a couple of his mechanics and they all said that Bruce and his boys reckon the TD5 probably has more potential and will take more abuse (in terms of able to handle power and torque and stay together) compared to the Tdci.
It was a very impressive design, quite ahead of it's time compared to most all other manufacturers light diesels.
That chat with Bruce's mechanics was from about three years ago so they might think differently now, but they were pushing crazy numbers out of a TD5 test mule on the dyno just to see what it'd take.

No offence to Bruce but he changed my timing belt and left the top rad hose clamp off almost destroying my engine no more than a dozen k's down the road,and he refused to do anything about it :mad:. Pat

[rick130]

I've only ever spoken to him on the phone Pat, many, many years ago.

I actually ran into two of his mechanics at a movie shoot !
They were supplying and looking after the period vehicles and were checking out the 130 in the car park at the wardrobe fitting so we got talking.

[Robmacca]

If they weren't going to use a Land Rover motor, it's a shame they didn't fit the Ranger motor instead of the Transit motor. I've no doubt it would have been a much better option. I would assume that since the Td5 fits into the engine bay the Ranger motor would fit also. Actually, they could have also fit the Ranger auto which would have been a great option to have.


Curious here, but I've spoken to a few fellas at work who own the 3.2 Rangers & they inform me that when it comes to an oil change, that u can't leave it sit there and drain the oil for an half hour or whatever, but u simply remove the majority of the oil, refit sump plug and refill.... They said there is a potential issue with the oil pump losing it's prime and causing damage to the engine......

My question is - Does this apply to the Ford 2.4 &/or 2.2 engines?

[Robmacca]

Oh good, another thread that is going to descend into a TDCi/Td5/Tdi bashing thread. Been a while since we had one.

Have a good day,


I actually enjoy reading these types of Posts and the debates they bring.... For me, it's a great way of finding out & learning what are the "Pluses" and "Minuses" of each version.
Learning what the "potential" issues that people are having with the various models (TD5 / TDCi) helps me determine what Defender model would suit me in the future should I ever want to upgrade.

I'm still very green in learning about Defenders and I currently have a Tdi 110 in my backyard that I'm hoping to get registered in the coming months.
Once registered, hopefully if in the end I like the Defender but would like a newer version, then these sorts of discussions I find useful in learning or knowing what sort of problems &/or changes there are with the different models / years.... (eg: I didn't realise that the later TD5's had a different rear diff to the earlier TD5's)

Costs: People have said that the TD5 is way more costly to maintain than the TDi, but how does the Puma engine compare cost wise to the TD5 to maintain.....? or hasn't the Puma been out longer enough (ie: done big kms) to come to a conclusion ??

BTW: While everyone is comparing engines here....... Here's one for the PUMA owners.... Which Puma engine would be more reliable (ie: give u less problems) long Term - 2.4 or 2.2?

[MLD]

My question is - Does this apply to the Ford 2.4 &/or 2.2 engines?

No.

MLD

[BilboBoggles]

I currently have a td5 my03, and a puma my13. I previously had a puma my09. I like the comfort of the puma for driving, the seats are better, dash nicer, heating better, rear seat has a center proper lap sash seat belt. The Puma drives much better than a stock td5.

I still think the TD5 was better built. When they went to the PUMA they cheapened a lot of minor components - for example silly things like the reflectors are a stick on job on the PUMA, but are bolted on on the TD5. The TD5 has much better seam sealant application. The center console is better built on the TD5. There is no covering on the rear of the front seat box.

BUT My TD5 has been performance tuned with a bruce davis ECU/exhaust/ egr etc. and it now goes extremely well - actually better than the PUMA stock engine. I have a hill that I performance test on,

110 td5 stock 60kmh
my09 110 puma 2.4 stock - 70
my13 110 puma 2.2 stock - 75
110 td5 tuned - 85+
(loan vehicle) Discovery sport - 80..!!!
(loan vehicle) Discovery 4 (full fat diesel) 90....

So yes - the Puma is better for my requirements - kids etc, but I still prefer to drive the TD5! Plus my dog can hear me coming home at least 10km from home!

Maintenance wise - I have had some eye watering bills keeping my td5 on the road - large enough that it paid me to lease the new defenders every 4 years - but I could not sell that td5... Over the years I've averaged $5000 at least a year on maintenance - clutch/flywheel/rear axle/harmonic balancer and then several useful mods - gearbox cooler - bruce davis tune - etc. But I do tend to have things fixed properly.

[Robmacca]

The maintenance costs between the Puma & TD5 - how do they compare?
If one is really a lot higher than the other.... why?

[jackdef90]

If you shop around you can get some pretty cheap puma ford branded parts, especially fuel system items ie, vcv valves and injectors, which is probably the main area to be concerned about with a common rail diesel motor.
Even the garret vgt turbo on a tdci is relatively cheap.
i think it's quite reassuring knowing this as these items WILL need replacing at some stage.

[Robmacca]

Just opening up this old thread to gain some extra info..... (hopefully no arguments :) )

Comparing the Tdci 2.2 vs the 2.4. - Does the later 2.2 have a Diesel Particular Filter (DPF)?

Tdci 2.4ltr vs TD5 in regards to TOWING:

I eventually want to upgrade from my old TDi to something newer that will meet all our needs in the future which are:


Reliability for Remote Touring with the wife/kids
Good offroad Ability for my weekend and midweek bush exploring
The ability to TOW our Caravan (around 2T or a bit less in weight) comfortably.
Not break the bank all the time when it comes to servicing....


I been told the following about the TD5:

> Can handle poorer quality Fuels
> Can handle a bigger lift (if req'd) than the PUMA
> Less Electronics/Sensors than the PUMA, therefore, potentially possibly relatively easier to fix? (not sure about this one)
> Issues with Oil in Harness (solvable); Oil Pump Bolt (all should have been fixed by now); Exhaust Manifolds warping (again, solvable); there was another thing that related to oil/water that I can't remember, something about running the wrong coolant resulting in corrosion and oil ingress into the coolant or visa versa....
> Better FUEL Economy than the PUMA

I been told the following about the PUMA 2.4:

> Hose rubbing issues / Turbo intercooler Hose issues (solvable)
> Limited to really only a 2" lift w/o some costly mods, bigger lift > bigger $$ req'd
> Issues with interconnecting shaft/spline between the Gearbox and Transfer case. Major failure point due to no lubrication and eventual spline failure (again, solvable but costly too)
> Weaker Driveline but this also solvable
> Better A/C and Heater than TD5 - More car like interior which the missus might prefer?
> Poorer FUEL Economy than the TD5
> More Power/Torque available from the PUMA engines, therefore better Towing Vehicle ??
> Better overall Gearing than the TD5

# The cost to Tweak the PUMA vs the Cost to Tweak the TD5 - Which is more costly??

Don't know which engine will last longer, but I would assume with regular servicing, etc, that both engines would last a very long time?

I would like to hear from others their towing ability of their Defenders (TD5's/Puma's)?
(Please, feel free to correct anything that I have mentioned above that is wrong)

cheers...
rob

[rar110]

The puma has a much nicer interior. That's where it ends for me. I've driven both and read much about both. And I'd buy a 2004+ Td5.

[PAT303]

Rob,I've towed my Cub Camper all over WA,the TDCi tows fine,as for outback reliability,I've driven mine to more places than 90% of 4wd's will ever go without issue's.I'll stand by my original comments,the TDCi is the best Defender. Pat

[rangieman]

Id have a Td5 Deefer any day and i have had one previously Thanks ex:bat:
Power wise in standard form i think the tdci has the edge[wink11]
Who ever you ask will always give a biased reply [bigwhistle]
I am still not convinced the tdci Puma and its quirks is a option even tho there are some among us that sprout their gospel but for me it`s a no brainer [thumbsupbig]
So what if the dash looks better that is not going to help when that stupid spud shaft spits its splines out:soapbox:
The flash dash is not going to help when the stupid int cooler hose rubs through:soapbox:
The gay dash is not going to help you prime fuel[wink11]
Oh and that dash is not going to help with the crappy t/c when it craps it self.
Wow am i sounding biased [bigwhistle]

[justinc]

I'm not sure if I will be welcome here, so I'll just keep moving right along....

😮😮😮

Jc

[rick130]

I'm not sure if I will be welcome here, so I'll just keep moving right along....

😮😮😮

Jc

:Rolling:

[Toxic_Avenger]

Full disclosure- I drive a puma, and have only driven a TD5 powered vehicle once.
Like others have suggested, this is a fruitless debate.

In puma's defence, most of the issues that have been quoted are, let's face it, minor. Hoses can be changed, output shafts are not outrageously expensive, and the engine itself is by all accounts a capable unit with decent power and economy in a compact package. Major mechanical failures are rare- on par or better than most other vehicles.

It should be noted that TD5's are not without their issues as well. But not my place to say.

[Robmacca]

Rob,I've towed my Cub Camper all over WA,the TDCi tows fine,as for outback reliability,I've driven mine to more places than 90% of 4wd's will ever go without issue's.I'll stand by my original comments,the TDCi is the best Defender. Pat

Hey Pat,

Has your Puma been tweaked or is it standard? I realise along flat roads, etc that both the Td5 & puma will tow ok, but it's the slight inclines, hills, etc. I'm wanting a vehicle that will tow reasonably well and would be able to pass others w/o having to wait for a piece of straight road 5kms long just so I can get around. I know there's no real substitute for cubic inch when it comes to performance, but I just don't want something that when I'm towing out 17" van that every incline/hill that I come to that the vehicle dies in the ar*e & I'm back down to 60/70ks on the Hwy... A good mate of mine has the 2.4 Puma 130 and he's quite often telling me how poor his tows his 5.7mtr boat. He's now considering the performance upgrade for his as he's been told that there's around a 50% increase in performance or there abouts.....

I like both the TD5 and PUMA, but trying to decide which one would meet my needs is proving quite difficult as I'm hoping the next vehicle we get will be the last one for a very long time to come.... Then I also need to consider the missus and even those she is pretty easy going, I feel the interior of the PUMA would suit her better as well......

[Robmacca]

I recently had to change the Injectors in the wife's '10 Prado 150 D4d at the 160k Service which in my eyes turned out to be a VERY costly exercise, but upon talking to other people and different vehicle makes, it looks like it wasn't too bad. Toyota in their service schedule never mention injector replacement but talk to most mechanics or those experienced with the D4d and they will tell u that u should replace them at 100k.... Now, I run a AUX 2 micron Fuel Filter + I've always tried to fuel up a the local BP Servo and use their BP Ultimate Diesel to try and prevent the injectors from having to be replaced, but it looks like it just delayed the inevitable....

My question is what is the service life of the PUMA and TD5 injectors? If the vehicle is serviced well and filters changed accordingly, do u have to ever change the Injectors in the TD5 and PUMA?

I got quoted from MR Auto that TD5 injectors are about $800>$880 each (Ouch, that's dear).
Looking on the Web, the PUMA ones off Paddocks is around $325 each which is cheaper that what I had to pay for my Toyota injectors. I'm not sure if there would be many PUMAs out there with HIGH kms on them, but after having to fork out some big $$ for our car, it got me wondering what to expect with the PUMA & TD5's. Do the TD5's injectors ever need replacing?

btw: from searching on the web, the Injectors for the PUMA's are about half the price of the TD5 injectors....

rob

[D90 orkney]

I have never driven a td5. I like the sound of them when modified.

I am am extremely happy with my 2.2. I have the tune and intercooler with silicone hoses and decat done. On road and off road I cannot complain at all. That along with the newer interior makes me a happy owner. Enough power for my needs and maintenance so far has been great

[alan48]

Hi,
I have had all Defender models privately and provided by my employer and currently own a 300Tdi big cab auto and a puma 2.2 130 dual cab, my family also a 110 2.2 wagon and feel I can comment on towing as we regularly tow either a horse float or an off road van weighing about 1800-1900kgs.

My experience is that the 300tdi is great but slow so when getting into pumas expected more--I am sorry but my 130 puma struggles when towing particularly on long up hill gradients--only yesterday on the run from the Hawkesbury River bridge up hill towards Mt Colah I was being passed by all and sundry also with vans, boats--yet on steep sections it actually is not too bad. However taking off from traffic lights when there is a slight incline is embarrasing!

My car has not had any issues and is regularly dealer serviced so as to keep my Rover Assist as now just out of warranty but I have decided that for towing it is lacking for me--so I will be looking at either a 3.2ltr transplant or a vehicle change. If I can get it done and keep the other aspects of the puma model then maybe a retro fit of an Isuzu turbo 3.9 might be possible as is being done here in Sydney by some LR people. The 110 in the family is also overly affected by towing--it really is in my opinion that the cubic capacity is insufficient when towing although unloaded they perform brilliantly. I think the TD5 if I remember was better at towing but it is quite a while since I have driven one.

I know that I can have the 2.2 performance improved but still feel it is low down torgue that is what I am after.

If any members have had a successful engine transplant done please let me know.
Thanks,
Alan

[Dervish]

I drive Defenders of both types frequently. I personally wouldn't own either, but my preference would be for a Td5. It seems like a lot of people like the MT-82 but I certainly don't count myself among them. The sad fact is that no matter how much more power you wring out of the little puma, the extra (notchy, horrible feeling) gear change to get to a reasonable speed keeps you slower than a Td5 with the same money spent on it. Perhaps all this is emphasised by how brilliant is the R380 is.

Someone also brought up the inability to self prime; incredibly frustrating in a rugged 4x4. If you have a compressor on board you can pressurise the tank, but you shouldn't have to. Pressurising the tank is far from a silver bullet at any rate.

I've also seen Pumas with corrosion problems that earlier Defenders seem to have avoided entirely like around joins in the roof and the under-tub reinforcement.

The most important point for me though, is that I simply don't enjoy the Puma driving experience. I would like to try a Puma - R380 combination though.

[PAT303]

Rob,all vehicles will slow down on hills especially towing a 5.7m boat.Mine sits on 70 going up some of the hills down south but who cares,owners of bigger engined vehicles do the same,they use to much fuel otherwise.I'm the first to admit the TDCi could use more torque,but then again it's done lots of outback driving,just like my old Tdi.Forget the BS about adapter splines etc,it's a known problem,fix it and move on,same with the weak diff,I've never broken one or a rover for that matter,and all my eight LR's I've owned to date have worked for their living. Pat

[PAT303]

I drive Defenders of both types frequently. I personally wouldn't own either, but my preference would be for a Td5. It seems like a lot of people like the MT-82 but I certainly don't count myself among them. The sad fact is that no matter how much more power you wring out of the little puma, the extra (notchy, horrible feeling) gear change to get to a reasonable speed keeps you slower than a Td5 with the same money spent on it. Perhaps all this is emphasised by how brilliant is the R380 is.

Someone also brought up the inability to self prime; incredibly frustrating in a rugged 4x4. If you have a compressor on board you can pressurise the tank, but you shouldn't have to. Pressurising the tank is far from a silver bullet at any rate.

I've also seen Pumas with corrosion problems that earlier Defenders seem to have avoided entirely like around joins in the roof and the under-tub reinforcement.

The most important point for me though, is that I simply don't enjoy the Puma driving experience. I would like to try a Puma - R380 combination though.

Someone brought up the inability to self prime who doesn't know what he's talking about,I've run my TDCi out of fuel twice on purpose and refilling it with fuel it started both times straight away.It becomes a problem if you do something stupid like remove the fuel filter with it running or fitting an empty filter and starting it. Pat

[Toxic_Avenger]

Someone brought up the inability to self prime who doesn't know what he's talking about,I've run my TDCi out of fuel twice on purpose and refilling it with fuel it started both times straight away.It becomes a problem if you do something stupid like remove the fuel filter with it running or fitting an empty filter and starting it. Pat

I need to correct the record here.
The TDCI has a fuel starvation map, where the engine drops performance in a few stages, terminating in limp mode before the engine willingly lets itself run out of fuel. Some people think this is silly, having electronic systems in place to prevent mechanical events, but I think it's also a benefit. Engine limp mode is just that- limping to prevent further engin injury / damage. I've copy/pasted some info on this below.

If, on the other hand, you lose fuel prime for example changine a fuel filter (or larger damage / repairs), then the 2.2 and 2.4 TDCI handle this differently.
The 2.4 has no in-tank lift pump. The HP pump on the engine block does the lift and HP stages. Bleeding this can involve some tomfoolery, but is not impossible.
The 2.2 has an in-tank lift pump, and HP pump on the block. Priming the fuel system in this case is a simple matter of keying IGN on for 15 seconds, then OFF for 15, rinse and repeat about 6 or so times. You will hear the lift pump gurgling fuel and air bubbles back into the tank throughout this process.





LOW FUEL INDICATION AND RUN DRY STRATEGY
The run-dry strategy is used to maintain the systems fuel prime at fuel run out. It ensures the minimum amount of fuel is
always left in the swirl pot.
The instrument cluster activates the yellow low fuel warning light (next to the fuel gauge) with 17% of fuel remaining in
the tank. The fuel gauge will indicate empty with 12% of fuel left in the tank.
With 6 liters left in the tank the run-dry strategy will be invoked. An engine mis-fire will be induced for approximately 1
mile after which the engine will be shut down. The engine can be re-started in mis-fire mode and will continue to run for a
further mile until the engine shuts down again. This can be repeated until the fuel suction port in the tank is uncovered
and causes engine fuel starvation and loss of prime. Re-starts after run-dry shut down are not recommended.

[DiscoMick]

I have a 2.4 Puma and previously had a 300Tdi Discovery.
The 2.4 fuel pump is not a problem. Just fill the filter with fuel and screw it in place and it will kick over.
These Ford engines are everywhere and they are pretty reliable and rugged.
The six-speed gearbox means both a lower low range for crawling and a higher top for highway cruising. The gear change is fine if you slow down a bit and let the clutch out before accelerating. Works well.
Mine has a Steinbauer chip and tows our camper trailer easily.
The anti-stall means it can idle over obstacles without stalling.
It has plenty of height as standard and doesn't need lifting. The suspension is intended to give a comfortable ride over bad roads for long distances.
I'm very happy with our Tdci Defender.

[rick130]

The sad fact is that no matter how much more power you wring out of the little puma, the extra (notchy, horrible feeling) gear change to get to a reasonable speed keeps you slower than a Td5 with the same money spent on it. Perhaps all this is emphasised by how brilliant is the R380 is.



Everyone is probably sick of hearing my dislike of the MT82, a lot of people seem to like it, but after living with it for twelve months on a daily basis I still don't get on with it.
The one I use is behind a 3.2 Tdci and I really like the engine, but it's sadly let down by the gearbox.

I'd forgotten how sweet the upshift was on the R380 until I jumped back into the Tdi recently, but I did keep looking for 6th ! :D (and I'll admit to looking for 7th with the MT82 on a trip more than once. [bigwhistle])

[Robmacca]

Well, after today, I reckon I've possibly narrowed down my choice after a gracious member on here invited me over to look over his '10 Defender 110 wgn 2.4ltr Tdci and go for a drive and I must admit, it's sort of sealed the direction I want to head for the future.

His 110 Wgn had the Performance upgrade; larger Intercooler; Exhaust made to breathe better and a larger air intake pipe from the Snorkel to the Airbox (even though he said that this mod was more about increased economy).

When I drove it, I was amazed at the drivability of it and it seemed to pull up hills in 4th quite well. Interior noise was down; comfort was great; Front and rear seating was good. The Gearbox seemed good except for me selecting 3rd instead of 5th :(
Everything seemed great and a BIG improvement over my old tdi300. To me and how this one went, I reckon it would suit our needs pretty well. Speaking to the owner, he says with the upgrade, towing is vastly improved (more torque down low as well) and for those that know Cunningham's Range in Qld, he said he tows his Cub Camper up the Range easily to the point that he needs to slow down to keep within the speed limit.

So, for our needs I think I'll be looking for a 2.4 version (No DPF on these and I believe they accept a performance upgrade on the ECU a bit more easily than the 2.2, something about a security code?).

I've got a few more years to continue my research to ensure I understand what I'm getting into before I will be selling the missus Prado & upgrade to a 2.4ltr but obviously will be keeping an eye out for any really good deals that may come up b4 then....

cheers & thanks for the input :)

rob

[roverrescue]

I know it was on page 1
But rescue tape rescue shmape
Lasted 5km on an intercooler hose rub through for me
Time taken removing hose applying tape re installing hose to have it fail again
could have been put to good use just driving at reduced boost.

BUT

I then drove 500km back to home base keeping boost under squeal pressure (9psi)
Before changing the hose

I am not one to call a tow truck ;)

Oh and if you drive at reduced boost fuel economy is amazing!

S

[bsperka]

I recently had to change the Injectors in the wife's '10 Prado 150 D4d at the 160k Service ...

My question is what is the service life of the PUMA and TD5 injectors? If the vehicle is serviced well and filters changed accordingly, do u have to ever change the Injectors in the TD5 and PUMA?



In other threads people have indicated that their TD5s have the original injectors at 500k + kms.
Did you replace your Toyota's D4D injectors with OEM , or use Baileys injectors (etc). Btw: the fuel rail on the D4D should be replaced about every 3rd to 4th time its undone, as the likelihood of it leaking increases with each reuse. (Eg checking tappets every 40k requires the rail off from what I've heard).

[Robmacca]

In other threads people have indicated that their TD5s have the original injectors at 500k + kms.
Did you replace your Toyota's D4D injectors with OEM , or use Baileys injectors (etc). Btw: the fuel rail on the D4D should be replaced about every 3rd to 4th time its undone, as the likelihood of it leaking increases with each reuse. (Eg checking tappets every 40k requires the rail off from what I've heard).

Yeah, used the Genuine Denso Injectors at $440/each. Will keep it in mind regarding the fuel lines for the next valve clearance check at the 200k mark.

Good to know that the lifetime of the TD5 injectors is LONG if treated right because at $880/each x 5 = $4400, that's definitely a Credit Card killer :(

I reckon the Puma though will be better suited to our requirements, so now, I've just got to keep saving until the right time comes up....

Re: The Replacement of the "Spud Shaft" between the G'box & T'fer on the Puma, would it be fair to say that if it's done 100k+ in kms that it should have been replaced?

[DiscoMick]

Well, after today, I reckon I've possibly narrowed down my choice after a gracious member on here invited me over to look over his '10 Defender 110 wgn 2.4ltr Tdci and go for a drive and I must admit, it's sort of sealed the direction I want to head for the future.

His 110 Wgn had the Performance upgrade; larger Intercooler; Exhaust made to breathe better and a larger air intake pipe from the Snorkel to the Airbox (even though he said that this mod was more about increased economy).

When I drove it, I was amazed at the drivability of it and it seemed to pull up hills in 4th quite well. Interior noise was down; comfort was great; Front and rear seating was good. The Gearbox seemed good except for me selecting 3rd instead of 5th :(
Everything seemed great and a BIG improvement over my old tdi300. To me and how this one went, I reckon it would suit our needs pretty well. Speaking to the owner, he says with the upgrade, towing is vastly improved (more torque down low as well) and for those that know Cunningham's Range in Qld, he said he tows his Cub Camper up the Range easily to the point that he needs to slow down to keep within the speed limit.

So, for our needs I think I'll be looking for a 2.4 version (No DPF on these and I believe they accept a performance upgrade on the ECU a bit more easily than the 2.2, something about a security code?).

I've got a few more years to continue my research to ensure I understand what I'm getting into before I will be selling the missus Prado & upgrade to a 2.4ltr but obviously will be keeping an eye out for any really good deals that may come up b4 then....

cheers & thanks for the input :)

rob
Good stuff. Our 2.4 easily tows our camper up the hill to Maleny, from sea level to 550 metres in a short distance. Six gears makes a lot of difference.

[strangy]

Td5 injectors (new) can be bought for much less than 4400/ set.
As stated if fuel cleanliness is managed, 500k + easily achieved.
But.. if you had 500+k on your TD5 you will have a number of other considerations for $, of which I would suggest, new injectors wouldn't be on the list.
In fact with such long life commonly achieved as the norm rather than the exception 2nd hand at around 100 a piece would be the choice for most unless playing in performance land.

[justinc]

Yeah, used the Genuine Denso Injectors at $440/each. Will keep it in mind regarding the fuel lines for the next valve clearance check at the 200k mark.

Good to know that the lifetime of the TD5 injectors is LONG if treated right because at $880/each x 5 = $4400, that's definitely a Credit Card killer :(

I reckon the Puma though will be better suited to our requirements, so now, I've just got to keep saving until the right time comes up....

Re: The Replacement of the "Spud Shaft" between the G'box & T'fer on the Puma, would it be fair to say that if it's done 100k+ in kms that it should have been replaced?


Rob I've replaced many spud shafts at between 50 and 70k even. Some 90s with no towbar fitted have been the worst, go figure😠

Jc

[Wallaby Ted]

Rob,

My shaft was done at around 75k and as you saw by the state of it wasn't going to last much longer. As far as I aware it was never serviced by the dealer (as it was never on a bill), and it was picked up by the new (non dealer) mechanic as needing replacing urgently during a service.

Needless to say I splurged on the Ashcroft replacement so it is self lubricating.

Richard

[PAT303]

I tell anyone that ask's not to worry about injectors,LR owners very rarely if ever need to replace them. Pat

[PAT303]

Yeah, used the Genuine Denso Injectors at $440/each. Will keep it in mind regarding the fuel lines for the next valve clearance check at the 200k mark.

Good to know that the lifetime of the TD5 injectors is LONG if treated right because at $880/each x 5 = $4400, that's definitely a Credit Card killer :(

I reckon the Puma though will be better suited to our requirements, so now, I've just got to keep saving until the right time comes up....

Re: The Replacement of the "Spud Shaft" between the G'box & T'fer on the Puma, would it be fair to say that if it's done 100k+ in kms that it should have been replaced?

Sorry to rain on your parade but you've replaced rubbish quality injectors with very expensive rubbish quality injectors. Your ''new'' injectors are most likely just as much out of spec as the old ones. Pat

[Robmacca]

Sorry to rain on your parade but you've replaced rubbish quality injectors with very expensive rubbish quality injectors. Your ''new'' injectors are most likely just as much out of spec as the old ones. Pat

Well, I guess only time will tell.....

[PAT303]

Well, I guess only time will tell.....

I'd keep a very close eye on the exhaust and a very close ear on the motor,if it starts puffing black smoke or gets a hint of a rattle turn the damn thing off.

[rangieman]

I tell anyone that ask's not to worry about injectors,LR owners very rarely if ever need to replace them. Pat
Thats because everything else around the injectors has been repaired or replaced [bigwhistle]

[Robmacca]

Thats because everything else around the injectors has been repaired or replaced [bigwhistle]


That's funny because the mechanic that worked on our Prado said the exact same thing when I asked about LR injectors & their reliability....

[Robmacca]

I'd keep a very close eye on the exhaust and a very close ear on the motor,if it starts puffing black smoke or gets a hint of a rattle turn the damn thing off.

I don't think the Injectors will the thing I need to watch out for but more so the Pistons from what I've been reading.... As I've said, with continual proper servicing, only time will tell how things turn out.... I'm hoping & believing for the best ;)

I do have the Techstream program where by I can plug in & view/download how the engine/injectors are performing, etc

[PAT303]

Thats because everything else around the injectors has been repaired or replaced [bigwhistle]

Because you drive a Td5 [bigwhistle].

















Sorry mate,couldn't resist [biggrin]