300tdi vs a td5?

[cafe latte]

I have been looking for what seems ages for a 300tdi 130 4 door in good condition, and I need my second car. It seems there are lots of td5's 130 150- 200,000km in good condition with loads of extras, but few 300 tdi's. I know parts are more expensive for the td5's, but what are the pros and cons apart this for the two engines?
I can get a td5 with over 100,000 less km easily if I get a td5 are they really that much more trouble?
Thanks
Chris

[PAT303]

If looked after there is no reason why a Td5 will cost much more than a Tdi,the trouble is if something does go wrong a Td5 in much more expensive to fix.Both engines are prone for HG failure,just price a Tdi head verses a Td5 and you'll get an idea of what I'm on about. Pat

[Blknight.aus]

nope. as they get longer in the tooth, generally you're going to have more hassles with the ancillaries and the vehicle mounted stuff than the engine itself.

all of the issues you will expect from a tdi you can expect from a TD5, it depends on what you're comfortable with in the disco the TD5 version has more comfort and room inside it but its a touch heavier on fuel and a little harder on the manouver factor, that said, it generally tows better and travels more comfortably for it. IMHO proper offroading its size and weight hampers it a little but until you get up to the "you're nuts" kind of tracks you wont really notice it and the after market mod industry levels that playing field very quickly.

The TDI will handle any kind of fuel that resembles diesel but as the engine is older it requires more frequent tuning and maintenance. The TD5 generally leaks less than a TDI but when it decides to leak, its not usually as cheap a fix as it can be in a TDI.

on distance alone, the TD5 Goes further than a TDI between services, but the TDI services are generally cheaper.

I would personally have a TDI over a td5 for maybe 4 key points

I can run it on veges
Its smaller and I dont need the extra size
Its pre emissions so If I want to stick some granit hewn engine in it when I kill it I can, easily
I dont really value all the extra mod cons in the D2 as such they offer me no real advantage but they add potential failure points.

[rick130]

The TD5 is an inherently better and obviously more modern design but it has it's little foibles.

Make sure the oil pump bolt has been loctited, occasionally you'll get that oil in the injector loom problem and the later model TD5 head is a better design, and the aftermarket AMC head is even better again (more meat in critical areas)

The Tdi is just an old school, simple to work on 4 cyl turbo diesel.
The turbo is a first generation design, so not super efficient and the things that go wrong are generally really easy to keep on top of, eg. valve lash caps are consumable unless you use good quality aftermarket ones, the big ends should be checked for wear around the 280,000km mark and head gaskets are starting to get suspect around then too, mine lasted until around the 330,000km mark before it let go.
Clutches are usually cactus by the 220-250,00km mark but it often isn't friction plate wear but the pivot punching through the fork (unless reinforced, which means it's been apart) and fingers badly worn on the diaphragm.

I've bagged the Tdi unmercifully here over the years, too small a capacity, crook QC at times but overall it is a simple and reliable little lump.

[Slunnie]

The TDI will handle any kind of fuel that resembles diesel but as the engine is older it requires more frequent tuning and maintenance.
The TD5 will handle remotely diesel like fuels better than the Tdi. The TD5 will run on aviation jet fuel without the lubrication additives that the Tdi needs. Actually all of the TD5 injector development was done using kero. LR developed the motor to be able to do this for US and UK military requirements.

[Blknight.aus]

The TD5 will handle remotely diesel like fuels better than the Tdi. The TD5 will run on aviation jet fuel without the lubrication additives that the Tdi needs. Actually all of the TD5 injector development was done using kero. LR developed the motor to be able to do this for US and UK military requirements.

Your definition of "remotely diesel" is somewhat more conservative than mine.

let me know when you get it running reliably on thinned down used engine oil, hydraulic oil, citronella oil or filtered and dewatered chip fat/oil. :)

[Slunnie]

Your definition of "remotely diesel" is somewhat more conservative than mine.

let me know when you get it running reliably on thinned down used engine oil, hydraulic oil, citronella oil or filtered and dewatered chip fat/oil. :)
It probably doesnt run on ****

[Blknight.aus]

no but it does run on Bee pee.

[rick130]

Actually all of the TD5 injector development was done using kero. LR developed the motor to be able to do this for US and UK military requirements.

Shame it took LRA to electrically quieten the engine and then Ford bought it and military got canned. :(

[Wicks89]

Dont be afraid of going to the td5 mate. Theyre not unreliable, its simply a matter of the electronic injection adds another level of complexity.

This just makes troubleshooting a little more difficult in some cases. By this i mean if youre not the font of all knowledge on land rover, you may find yourself asking "is this the computer or a mechanical problem?"

Blknight raised some good points, its easier to put a 4bd1t into a tdi than a td5 id imagine. Maybe you could pick up a blown up tdi and go that route?

Bottom line: td5 is fine man. Every time I think mine has let me down turns out its fine.

[cafe latte]

Thanks guys,
Reason I ask is for every 300tdi 130 I see I see maybe 10 td5's so it will be a lot easier to find a good one. I have been looking for a decent 130 300tdi for months now, and when I see a good one it is generally in another state and it get snapped up before I get chance to get it checked out which is so annoying.
I will maybe keep looking, but extend my search a bit to include really good late model td5's
Cheers
Chris

[rick130]

Thanks guys,
Reason I ask is for every 300tdi 130 I see I see maybe 10 td5's so it will be a lot easier to find a good one. I have been looking for a decent 130 300tdi for months now, and when I see a good one it is generally in another state and it get snapped up before I get chance to get it checked out which is so annoying.
I will maybe keep looking, but extend my search a bit to include really good late model td5's
Cheers
Chris


The only downside for the post '02 TD5's is that the rear diff is the P38 style and not the Sals.

[PAT303]

Rick,you can buy a D1 rover rear for $100-$150,rebuilt with Ashcroft internals you'll get a strong enough diff for all but the hardest conditions for a bit over a grand. Pat

[rick130]

How much are Sals going for ?

[Blknight.aus]

bout $2k for a rebuilt one. not installed, not delivered last time I got one quoted but I cant remember if thats hub to hub or just stub to stub with axles.

[numpty]

The only downside for the post '02 TD5's is that the rear diff is the P38 style and not the Sals.

Interesting, as my 2001 has P38 diff, albeit with a strengthened housing.

[rick130]

Interesting, as my 2001 has P38 diff, albeit with a strengthened housing.
Yep, sounds like an ex-Telstra extended cab ?
I've checked out 130man's a few times when he was traveling through Murra.
I'm pretty sure they were the Wolf rear end.
Impressive bracing and trussing.

[numpty]

Yep, sounds like an ex-Telstra extended cab ?
.

Yes.

[TerryO]

Your definition of "remotely diesel" is somewhat more conservative than mine.

let me know when you get it running reliably on thinned down used engine oil, hydraulic oil, citronella oil or filtered and dewatered chip fat/oil. :)


Interesting discussion. Hands up anyone other than Blknight who has needed to run their vehicle on the above waste oils as fuel to get somewhere?

I did say needed, not chosen too.

The other point is I guess if your stuck in the outback with next to no fuel chances are there isn't a local Chippie that you can ask for their old chip fat to fuel up your vehicle.

[manic]

Interesting discussion. Hands up anyone other than Blknight who has needed to run their vehicle on the above waste oils as fuel to get somewhere?


A pump full of bad fuel is easily dealt with in a TDI. It happens.

In the UK many ran veg oil in TDI because they could not afford the high fuel prices. A need?

I think the point being made is that the latest fuel systems can be more easily written off compared to a TDI. And that is something you may want to consider if u are going to take it traveling through 'bad fuel' areas (Africa etc.) or if you want to run your own biofuels (farm).

But true say Terry, when making a choice between TDI/td5 these points are not important to the majority.

[strangy]

Interesting discussion. Hands up anyone other than Blknight who has needed to run their vehicle on the above waste oils as fuel to get somewhere? I did say needed, not chosen too. The other point is I guess if your stuck in the outback with next to no fuel chances are there isn't a local Chippie that you can ask for their old chip fat to fuel up your vehicle.
Having lived and worked in many remote parts of Australia, I've never seen the need or availability of chip oil or waste oil as a viable "stuck in the outback"fuel option it just doesn't happen or exist.
If there is any form of civilisation, you will typically find a drum of jet fuel. I'll carry a small bottle of 2 stroke in my remote touring kit to add in the event I had such circumstances to render my fuel state critical.
The only circumstance in Oz where you "need" to involuntarily contemplate muck fuel ( veg, waste etc) is nowhere.
If you can find anything to burn as fuel and the means to filter it to be viable then a more conventional fuel would have been available anyway.

[shedlock2000]

I hate to resurrect an old-ish thread, but I was hoping for some slightly different advice related to the OP's question.

I am in Canada and my query is better answered here by you guys than the UK forums, because it is to do with monty mileage. I am planning to buy a 110 for summer camping trips -- likely in the thousands of miles per trip. I am interested in whether the 300Tdi or the TD5 would be better for highway miles at 70-80mph?

I have owned 43 Land Rovers in my life -- including several Td5s in 90s and D2s (though this was in the UK and they were new land rovers). However, I have become more sedate in recent years, owning L322s and LR3s (the latter of which was a bloody nightmare and resulted in the switch to the L322). The time has come for me and the g/f to consolidate; she is having my MY 2100 L322 and selling her 2017 Disco Sport, and I am switching to a 110 for camping with her and the kids (though the 110 will need some serious mods to resist the -50c we get up here in winter).

Anyway -- can anyone advise on which would be the better engine vehicle to do a bazillian miles in? Anyone suggest replacement seats for such trips?

[loanrangie]

I love the TDI for simplicity but the td5 wins for highway miles.

[strangy]

I can say the heated Recaros found in XVS models are very comfy and direct bolt in
Also very pricey unless found in a wreck.

[shedlock2000]

I love the TDI for simplicity but the td5 wins for highway miles.

What makes the TD5 better, Loanrangie?

[Slunnie]

What makes the TD5 better, Loanrangie?
Power. Did the tdi have cruise control?

to the question, I think to cruise at 70-80mph, the TD5 would be your only option from the two listed. On the flat the Disco2 TD5 will sit happily on 130kmh all day, faster will really compromise your range, and it will max out at just over 160kmh with a standard or tweaked engine. The Defender has a bit less power and aerodynamics so will be a bit slower.

[shedlock2000]

Power. Did the tdi have cruise control?

to the question, I think to cruise at 70-80mph, the TD5 would be your only option from the two listed. On the flat the Disco2 TD5 will sit happily on 130kmh all day, faster will really compromise your range, and it will max out at just over 160kmh with a standard or tweaked engine. The Defender has a bit less power and aerodynamics so will be a bit slower.

Hey Slunnie,

I don’t think cruise was an option on any Defender, was it? I had a pretty tricked out Defender back in the Uk (it was a 2002 and brand new with all options, and it didn’t have cruise).

Did they uptune the TD5 for the D2, then? I had a D2 with a TD5 in it — it was a great vehicle, but presumably it had different transfer box and diff ratios.

There are not many places in Canada that can tweak a TD5 (or a Tdi, for that matter!). One benefit from the TD5 is the bigger heater matrix (any help I can get will count!). The prices here are scary (buddy wants $40k for this!!), though, and the most disadvantageous aspect of the TD5 is that it’s RHD — not great for resale in LHD country!

[rick130]

Having owned both, TD5 is the winner.

The Tdi is a lovely, simple engine to work on, it's actually pretty reliable despite the names I've called it over the years, and was a major step forward for light diesels in terms of efficiency, and may even be better off road than the TD5, but the TD5 is the better highway engine.

Its architecture is stronger so a better base to tweak, makes more power stock and is much more refined (when the engine mounts haven't collapsed!! [emoji23])

[AK83]

Theres's a thread somehwere on here where a cruise system is being retro fitted to a Defender TD5 .. doesn't seem to hard.

300 tdi's never had cruise(maybe the EDC models could have tho).
When I decided to cruise-ify my D1 Tdi, I went with an electric cruise control. Works close to perfect now, but needed a bit of twiddling to make it so.

Gaining more experience with the TD5 now(brothers) I like it more and more .. and more every time I drive it or being driven in it.

Simplicity of the Tdi is why I bought one, instead of the Td5 myself, but having dealt with brothers TD5 now for a while, I chose unwisely.
No regrets tho, still love the D1 Td1 for what it is and does.

My recommendation is go with the Td5.
Also! .. while your getting into modding it for your camping, a little .. actually! a lot of sound insulation can go a long way when you're going lots of miles in short time.
And learn to understand the motor too .. get your hands dirty, fix stuff yourself where you can .. etc.

[shedlock2000]

Theres's a thread somehwere on here where a cruise system is being retro fitted to a Defender TD5 .. doesn't seem to hard.


My recommendation is go with the Td5.
Also! .. while your getting into modding it for your camping, a little .. actually! a lot of sound insulation can go a long way when you're going lots of miles in short time.
And learn to understand the motor too .. get your hands dirty, fix stuff yourself where you can .. etc.

Thanks for the info, Ak83 — I’ll be stripping the interior of entire vehicle, pretty much, to add dynamat and some heat insulation — I need to do this because it gets down to -50°c here fairly regularly. The engine will need to have core and sump heaters fitted, and I’m thinking of also fitting a Eberspächer pre-heat system and aux cabin heater. My experiences with Defenders have been only in UK weather, but my RRC wouldn’t keep up with the cold outside, so I don’t think for a minutes the TD5 would.

The cruise really should be something I fiddle with too — I’ll check out that thread. Like Australia, it’s possible to drive for 15 hours here before you get where you need to stop to sleep, so not having a foot on the pedal would be super helpful.

In fact, this is one of the things that is making me hesitant about the vehicle — summers are fine, but winters are perishing. By the time I’ve added these extras, plus electric windows and heated seats/windshield, the cost will be getting up there — especially for something that’s RHD (in a LHD country, that is). These little extras will likely set me back about $10k and she needs tyres and rims too.

Can any of you please remind me how tolerable a 2001 TD5 110CSW might be for a 5000 mike camping trip?

[shedlock2000]

Having owned both, TD5 is the winner.

The Tdi is a lovely, simple engine to work on, it's actually pretty reliable despite the names I've called it over the years, and was a major step forward for light diesels in terms of efficiency, and may even be better off road than the TD5, but the TD5 is the better highway engine.

Its architecture is stronger so a better base to tweak, makes more power stock and is much more refined (when the engine mounts haven't collapsed!! [emoji23])

I’m told there is some basic re-mapping that can be done to improve power and performance without sacrificing fuel economy and such on the TD5. I have no idea who might be able to do such a re-map over here, though... there are few Land Rover places and I don’t know what skills the have with diesels (almost everything is gas here — and why not, I get 28mpg out of my L322 and diesel is 5c a litre more expensive!)

[Slunnie]

Hey Slunnie,

I don’t think cruise was an option on any Defender, was it? I had a pretty tricked out Defender back in the Uk (it was a 2002 and brand new with all options, and it didn’t have cruise).

Did they uptune the TD5 for the D2, then? I had a D2 with a TD5 in it — it was a great vehicle, but presumably it had different transfer box and diff ratios.

There are not many places in Canada that can tweak a TD5 (or a Tdi, for that matter!). One benefit from the TD5 is the bigger heater matrix (any help I can get will count!). The prices here are scary (buddy wants $40k for this!!), though, and the most disadvantageous aspect of the TD5 is that it’s RHD — not great for resale in LHD country!
Id didn't think the tdi had CC, but if the TD5 didn't either I guess it's not a factor between the engines. I'm a compulsive CC user which is why I brought it up.

I dont think it was so much they uptuned the TD5 from the Defender to the Disco, as I understand it, it had more to do with the induction side of the engine being different due to packaging constraints. The transfers are different as you've rightly said. The differences are the high range ratio (110/130 are 1.4, Disco is 1.2) and the tyre diameter (90/110/130 31 (tel:90/110/130 31)", Disco 29").

I had my TD5 tweaked, but to be honest, my thoughts are that if you're sitting on those speeds which will create higher EGTs than normal driving, that personally..... now that I've had experience with a hot engine tune...... I would still uprate the intercooler but I would be reluctant to have the ECU modified or use a very light upgrade WITH an uprated intercooler because I think that too many are running too high EGT's which ruins the TD5 motors in a number of areas. I remember years ago thinking the uprated intercooler and the uprated ECU give about the same performance increases.

[manic]

Both engines are good for long hauls and high mileage. A TDI will likely be cheaper to maintain. Both can do 70mph all day long on the flat. If you are going to tow a large van and hope to hold some speed, go with the TD5

Gearing on the defender TDI/TD5 means both will sound like they are reving their nuts off at 80mph. A loaded 110 on a 1.2 ratio xfer box would not go well up hill so I would keep the 1.4 ratio and look to reduce cruising revs with taller tyres or an overdrive unit.

With the cooler climate you probably dont need AC, so you will have plenty of space for a full width IC in front of your rad. A healthy TDI would comfortably hold 70-80mph with all that cold air. The fuel pump tweak to match a bigger IC is well documented and easy to DIY.

For comfort a webasto coolant heater would be high on my list. We had one in the UK. It can heat up the engine, interior and defrost the windows before you get in and turn the key! Any uprated heater box/matrix available for the td5 will fit the tdi.

[shedlock2000]

Id didn't think the tdi had CC, but if the TD5 didn't either I guess it's not a factor between the engines. I'm a compulsive CC user which is why I brought it up.

Yeah -- me too. I am glad this was brought up! I didn't think about CC; you don't really need it in the UK -- but over here is a different story. I shall look into the CC, but from what has been said above, it doesn't sound like too much of an issue.



I had my TD5 tweaked, but to be honest, my thoughts are that if you're sitting on those speeds which will create higher EGTs than normal driving, that personally..... now that I've had experience with a hot engine tune...... I would still uprate the intercooler but I would be reluctant to have the ECU modified or use a very light upgrade WITH an uprated intercooler because I think that too many are running too high EGT's which ruins the TD5 motors in a number of areas. I remember years ago thinking the uprated intercooler and the uprated ECU give about the same performance increases.

This is good info -- I was going to re-map the TD5 if I got it, but it's nice to know that the Tdi can keep those speeds too. Do you think that a larger IC can make that much of a difference? It does get balmy hot over here as well -- the summers are often +40c or more (not quite what you guys experience, but its tricky here planning for a 90 degree change in temperatures between summer and winter!!) Frankly, if it can keep up at 70/80 mph and doesn't loose too much on the hills, I won't mind. My primary concern is the heat and the starting in the winter.

[shedlock2000]

Both engines are good for long hauls and high mileage. A TDI will likely be cheaper to maintain. Both can do 70mph all day long on the flat. If you are going to tow a large van and hope to hold some speed, go with the TD5

Good to know! Thanks. I won't be towing with it, but I will have a bunch of stuff on the rack (usually 4 kayaks, 2 jerry cans, water storage options, and two 2'x4' storage bins).


Gearing on the defender TDI/TD5 means both will sound like they are reving their nuts off at 80mph. A loaded 110 on a 1.2 ratio xfer box would not go well up hill so I would keep the 1.4 ratio and look to reduce cruising revs with taller tyres or an overdrive unit.

Boo.... I might go for slightly oversized tyres, but narrowness is a thing for me. I was hoping to keep somewhere near stock but maybe use the Boost Alloys for a slightly wider track... I am not certain how that will pan out. Apparently, there is some dude over here making Defender overdrives of some repute! I have not looked into them yet. I had a Fairey overdrive on my '81 RRC a long time ago, I noted that the carb V8 wasn't really able to keep up with the ratios in the wind and the top speed would drop to well below 70. Have you noticed this sort of an issue with the Defenders?


With the cooler climate you probably don't need AC, so you will have plenty of space for a full width IC in front of your rad. A healthy TDI would comfortably hold 70-80mph with all that cold air. The fuel pump tweak to match a bigger IC is well documented and easy to DIY.

Hmmm, I am not desperate for the AC, but it has it and it might be nice. As I mentioned to Slunnie, it does get monty hot here too. I don't mind travelling with the windows and vents open, but it does get noisy!



For comfort a webasto coolant heater would be high on my list. We had one in the UK. It can heat up the engine, interior and defrost the windows before you get in and turn the key! Any uprated heater box/matrix available for the td5 will fit the tdi.

This is also good to know. I think the Webasto/Eberspacher units are a must up here -- I am really worried that the thin panels and lack of insulation in the Defender will just let the little bit of heat be sucked right out of the vehicle in the cold. One year I drove my RRC to Calgary in an emergency and it hi -58c. We had to stop and partition the the rear off from the front with blankets to try and keep the heat in. The windows kept freezing up on the inside and, in the end, we had to stop and purchase cold weather coveralls because the cold was so bad -- and the early RRC heaters were pretty good! I don't know whether even an Eberspacher cab heater would be sufficient to keep out that cold -- but I suppose we have the fatty for such trips.

[Slunnie]

This is good info -- I was going to re-map the TD5 if I got it, but it's nice to know that the Tdi can keep those speeds too. Do you think that a larger IC can make that much of a difference? It does get balmy hot over here as well -- the summers are often +40c or more (not quite what you guys experience, but its tricky here planning for a 90 degree change in temperatures between summer and winter!!) Frankly, if it can keep up at 70/80 mph and doesn't loose too much on the hills, I won't mind. My primary concern is the heat and the starting in the winter.

I've never driven with a tdi that is remotely similar to the Td5 on the highway personally, especially when its not flat. The normal is to slow down and wait but others may disagree. The hotter it gets the more you will draw on the larger intercooler to keep the temps down, its a safer way to gain more power. At 40+ I'd really question upgrading the ECU personally, but the intercooler will benefit and as per normal you will feel a big differnce between hot and cold days. In my seat of the pants opinion the larger intercooler did make that much difference. The ECU and Intercooler were done on successive days. I'm not sure about the tdi, but the Td5 isn't particularly affected by the cold, they usually start straight away, when below zero just give it a short pause for the glow plugs and they start straight after that.

[Slunnie]

One year I drove my RRC to Calgary in an emergency and it hi -58c.
Oh! Thats a whole different ball game to cold here!!! Where I live only gets down to -5!

[shedlock2000]

Oh! Thats a whole different ball game to cold here!!! Where I live only gets down to -5!

Hahah! Yeah, when it gets really cold it’s a big issue. Below -20 the carb V8 RRC wouldn’t start: the fuel condensed too much in the inlet manifold. When it’s really cold, even new petrol engines can be mighty sluggish.

I’m assuming that it’d be difficult to squeeze a bigger IC in with the Ac condenser at the front? Can additional units be installed anywhere?

[manic]

A taller skinny tyre option is the 255/85

Lets not compare the experience driving TD5/TDI discoveries to TD5/TDI defenders. In the defender 80+ mph feels like you are trying to break the sound barrier, the aerodynamics and gearing with a TDI or TD5 makes them both feel like they are being overworked at those speeds. Out of the factory there was around 11BHP difference between these motors. So if you find a good LHD TDI dont rule it out as not being powerful enough to cruise highways at the speed limit - it can. A slight fuel pump tweak on the TDI will see it cruise alongside a factory tuned TD5. Both these motors will fall off 80mph on a steep incline. If you want to storm up steep hills in a Defender a tuned up TD5 can leave the TDI for dust, but it will still sound like it is being absolutly thrashed!

A large IC certainly does make a difference, it allows you to up the fuel delivery without increasing EGT. If you do end up with a TDI, a full IC and fuel tweak can get you 35% more power ( up to 160BHP according to allisport). I doubt you would push it up to those figures in the real world, but a modest fuel adjustment to suit the IC could reliably produce more than a 122bhp TD5. The 300tdi behind the autobox was dialled up to 122BHP at the factory with a stock IC.
Defender 300 Tdi Full Size Intercooler - AlliSport (https://www.allisport.com/shop/performance-products/intercoolers/land-rover-defender-300-tdi-intercooler-kit/)

One option for getting a full width IC on a TDI with AC might be to fit a larger grill/nose panel found on the later defenders. You can also replace the belt driven fan and shroud with an electric fan, which would free up a bunch of space allowing you to move the rad further back towards the motor. An electric fan mod might be a good idea for the cold!

I have a TDI in a 90, lighter vehicle than the 110 but I have a lot of kit on it and its pulling through a r380 + 1.2 ratio xfer box, and 255/85 tyres. Electric rad fan conversion has always been enough to keep it cool even here in Australia. Runs a double core IC (not full width: Defender 300 Tdi uprated double core intercooler - AlliSport (https://www.allisport.com/shop/performance-products/intercoolers/land-rover-defender-300-uprated-double-core-intercooler/) ). Fuel pump tweaked to maintain safe EGT levels. I have no idea what the BHP/power figures would be but it can roar up most highway inclines at 70mph (in 4th) and on normal undulating road it can pur along at 75mph in 5th. Because my 5th gear is now way too tall I cant hold 80mph+ unless the road is flat. So effectivly I have four gears that pull and 5th as the overdrive. Its not the perfect set up but a huge improvement over the LT77+1.4box I had before, which howled along at 70mph in 5th on the flat!

110kph being the highway speed limit in Canada, and with no mention of towing, I would say soundproofing, gearing and cruise control would do more to improve your highway driving pleasure in a Defender than TD5 over TDI.

[DazzaTD5]

TD5 every time, then the Isuzu then a 300tdi.....



and if we are talking engines in general..
all the new engines well after the top 3

[JoeFriend]

If you go with a defender, get a wading blanket to block air flow, it helps get the temp up quickly in super cold climates, and doubles as it's name suggests.

I have one of these, so installed on truck and never leaves it.

Wading Screen/Seed Net Combo - Fleet Alliance Pty Ltd t/as Dolium (http://www.dolium.com.au/retail_catalogue/LRSN_item.html'ref_cat_id=Netting_Solutions)

Snow cowl for heater intake would also be a must.

Get AC in a defender if you want to be comfortable in 40 degree heat. And if you have it pulled apart, insulate and seal the seat box. The transfer, gearbox and exhaust bleed heat into the cabin. Great for winter, not so much in summer. I say seal the box because if I have the window or front vents open in mine I get more hot air coming in from that area. Windows closed is much better, air doesn't come up and into the cabin and make it hotter than it should be.

[shedlock2000]

So if you find a good LHD TDI don't rule it out as not being powerful enough to cruise highways at the speed limit - it can. A slight fuel pump tweak on the TDI will see it cruise alongside a factory tuned TD5. Both these motors will fall off 80mph on a steep incline. If you want to storm up steep hills in a Defender a tuned up TD5 can leave the TDI for dust, but it will still sound like it is being absolutely thrashed!

This is good information, Manic -- thanks. I live near the Rockies, so some hill/mountain work will be a must. Also, many of our trips are down south (which usually involves crossing the Great Divide once or twice). Never having driven a 300TDI, I am not certain how much a mountain would kill it (especially if I put on a new IC). I am not averse to a RHD -- but it would seriously hurt the resale value if I ever came to sell!


A large IC certainly does make a difference, it allows you to up the fuel delivery without increasing EGT. If you do end up with a TDI, a full IC and fuel tweak can get you 35% more power ( up to 160BHP according to allisport). I doubt you would push it up to those figures in the real world, but a modest fuel adjustment to suit the IC could reliably produce more than a 122bhp TD5. The 300tdi behind the autobox was dialled up to 122BHP at the factory with a stock IC.
Defender 300 Tdi Full Size Intercooler - AlliSport (https://www.allisport.com/shop/performance-products/intercoolers/land-rover-defender-300-tdi-intercooler-kit/)

Would this mod permit TD5 hill performance from a Tdi?


An electric fan mod might be a good idea for the cold!

This is probably a must over here -- I will probably put some sort of muffler on too. The cold is incredibly heat sapping here. This will probably involve a lot of insulation -- I have to look into what sort of insulation has the best heat properties (normally, insulation is sold for its sound properties -- which are different).


110kph being the highway speed limit in Canada, and with no mention of towing, I would say soundproofing, gearing and cruise control would do more to improve your highway driving pleasure in a Defender than TD5 over TDI.

Thanks for all the useful information, Manic. Silly question, but have you fitted heated seats and windshield at all? I know that there are kits out there, but I have not looked into the difficulty yet. If I go with the older Tdi, I will need to incorporate the newer luxuries (else the g/f will be most unhappy!)

[shedlock2000]

Snow cowl for heater intake would also be a must.

How much do these restrict the air flow to the heater? Is there any way to assist the heater? I have heard about Aliweld's oversized heater matrix -- but does it do any good? I heard that the air flow to the cab was more of an issue?


Get AC in a defender if you want to be comfortable in 40 degree heat. And if you have it pulled apart, insulate and seal the seat box. The transfer, gearbox and exhaust bleed heat into the cabin. Great for winter, not so much in summer. I say seal the box because if I have the window or front vents open in mine I get more hot air coming in from that area. Windows closed is much better, air doesn't come up and into the cabin and make it hotter than it should be.

Both the landy's I am looking at have AC... I am just not sure if I would prefer to adopt the blower motor and try and rig it for warmth rather than cold. The heat is good here, but the cold is worse. You can always wind windows down to try and get cooler -- you cannot do anything much to get warm if you are cold.

That said, I will have to see how effective my insulation ideas are before I mess with the AC.

[shedlock2000]

TD5 every time, then the Isuzu then a 300tdi.....

Ha! The TD5 and Tdi is quite polarising! I have heard much support for both. I think it will come down to driving them both and the price. I have heard that the Tdi has a better chassis metal, but lack of toys worries me a bit (I know I am getting into a Defender from a L322 -- and I have had many Defenders in the past, so it is not like I don't know what they're like -- but I would have to have leccy windows, some heated stuff, and a half decent stereo at the bare minimum!

Isuzu engines are not available here -- and I am a bit of a purist when it comes to Land Rovers (I only like LR stuff on my LR!). It is a shame that the defender is not fitted with a bigger lump; I was quite surprised that they never modified the lovely inline 6 they had for diesel.



and if we are talking engines in general..
all the new engines well after the top 3 Not sure what you mean by 'all the new engines well after the top 3'... Can you advise a bit further, please?

[JoeFriend]

They don't restrict the intake a great deal, the wingtop vent for the heater will fill with snow if you don't get one, melt and then get sucked into the heater matrix and fan causing issues.

The big thing to help the heater is to get engine temp up to operating as quick as you can, hence the engine blanket which will restrict airflow around the engine bay.

You can always alter the airvents inside the cabin and reroute them. They are only windshield and feet as standard. Not a great deal of room to do it though! Increasing the heater matrix size might work, but I would want to increase it with extra piping to get more hot air in. Increase the thermostat as well so it stays closed longer would help a tiny bit.

[manic]

Would this mod permit TD5 hill performance from a Tdi?
A healthy TDI on full IC and tweaked pump would go better than a stock TD5, but not by much. It will be a little less slow. A chipped TD5 with full IC would take it up another notch, but compared to a L322 you are still going to feel the hills.

Silly question, but have you fitted heated seats and windshield at all? I know that there are kits out there, but I have not looked into the difficulty yet. If I go with the older Tdi, I will need to incorporate the newer luxuries (else the g/f will be most unhappy!)
I have not. I think heated seats/screen only found their way into the TDCI defenders, so TDI or TD5 you would have to do the mods. If you go for the webasto pre-heater the windows and seats will get hot air blown on them before you even get in, and your engine will never have a cold start. I find heated seats are good for immediate heat whilst the cars interior warms up, after that they are unnecessary - so if you have a pre-heater you may not need them.

[discorevy]

Ha! The TD5 and Tdi is quite polarising! I have heard much support for both. I think it will come down to driving them both and the price. I have heard that the Tdi has a better chassis metal, but lack of toys worries me a bit (I know I am getting into a Defender from a L322 -- and I have had many Defenders in the past, so it is not like I don't know what they're like -- but I would have to have leccy windows, some heated stuff, and a half decent stereo at the bare minimum!
Isuzu engines are not available here -- and I am a bit of a purist when it comes to Land Rovers (I only like LR stuff on my LR!). It is a shame that the defender is not fitted with a bigger lump; I was quite surprised that they never modified the lovely inline 6 they had for diesel.
Not sure what you mean by 'all the new engines well after the top 3'... Can you advise a bit further, please?I'm pretty sure Dazza meant that his top 3 in order were td5, then isuzu then tdi and the newer engines are well down the list, he works on them for a living as do I , and I agree with that order.
The td5 is a great engine, and if tweaked properly will reliably produce 200hp / 480 + nm ( my own runs higher than this and has over 330000 kilometres) it is a d2 though, which has pretty much all the stuff you say you will want to add to a defender.
Don't want to **** on your parade as a purist but the lovely inline 6 diesel you describe is a BMW engine

[manic]

...top 3 in order were td5, then isuzu then tdi and the newer engines are well down the list, he works on them for a living as do I , and I agree with that order....


Depends on how you assess these engines. We are in the Defender section of the forum so we have to look at how suitable these engines are for the vehicle. The Isuzu is something like 350kg of bullet proof steel, its the nosiest engine out of the bunch, not even that powerful for its size and it near enough puts the front axle over its limits. Yet people flag it as one of the best to sit in a defender engine bay - why? Well, because it is simple and reliable. That is exactly what you would expect in a Series/Defender. The TDI has proved to be a reliable motor, has the same simplicity, yet lighter on the axle, and not quite so rattly. But the Isuzu is such a winner because it is uncompromisingly brutal in its simplicity and can tow 3 ton through the Aussie outback for days on end without a sweat. At least that's what I am told!

The Series/Defender would not have been so revered if it wasn't a ridiculously simple tin of nuts and bolts. Times have changed though, and the Defender can no longer exist in that state. The TD5 is a reliable, more modern, more capable engine than the ISUZU/TDI, but it introduced bits that no one was asking for, like an ECU and electric in tank fuel pump. Whilst the TDI was built with the military and hostile environments in mind, the TD5 wavered to satisfy more stringent European standards. This didn't go notice by the British military who declined the TD5 and demanded the TDI continue to power its vehicles.

So for me the best engines to ever fit in with what the Defender was built to do goes TDI -> TD5 -> Isuzu -> TDCI. Isuzu behind the TDI/TD5 only because it is not a proper land rover engine (Australia only), and TDCI last because even though it is the best engine/gearbox combo to drive, it would simply **** itself if it ever caught a whiff of bad fuel.

[rick130]

This didn't go notice by the British military who declined the TD5 and demanded the TDI continue to power its vehicles.



Only because the TD5 was electronically too 'noisy' for military use, and the Land Rover UK couldn't resolve it.

I'm the early 2000's the ADF looked at repowering the Perenties with the TD5, and LRA with a very small team headed by a mate of mine did it.
Then Ford bought Land Rover and canned military vehicles....

[uninformed]

saying the Isuzu is not better because its not a REAL LR engine is pretty silly - emotional bias. That like saying a rover 3.5 V8 better than a LS3 for a RRC beacuse its not a real LR engine....

I have 2 problems with the Isuzu - its weight and its torque pulsing thats not great on the LR driveline. It is however a great engine!

Id have the TD5 as the pic. Much better than the Tdi and lighter smoother than the Isuzu and the TD5 can deliver enough power for a LR reliabliy IMO

[manic]

saying the Isuzu is not better because its not a REAL LR engine is pretty silly - emotional bias.

I see your point, I wouldnt call it emotional bias though. More like Solihull bias. The isuzu was an officially endorsed engine conversion available straight out the dealer in Australia only. I have to knock a few points off for that. My list, my criteria :) .

The Isuzu conversion was a great australian intervention, the actual diesel motors made for the 'county' era land rovers coming out of solihull were the 2.5 NA and Turbo diesel which were terribly under powered. Aussies did what had to be done. For the rest of the world there were many conversion kits on the market back then. Perkins, nissan, isuzu, mazda, etc. It was only when the TDI came out that land rover had a good reliable diesel option. A worldwide winner!

[AK83]

As I remember, South Africa did a BMW 6cyl engine for their country too.

So, non LR engines in LR vehicles wasn't unusual.

[Slunnie]

Must have been pretty insulting to LR engineers when even their dealers are swapping out their motors.

[rick130]

Also remember that both SA and here were assembling/making Stage 1, Series III's and then 110's at the time and just choose to fit more appropriate engines than the UK could supply.
The 4BD1 was 'factory', not an aftermarket conversion.
Australia also made the 120 before Solihull developed the 127.
Again tailoring to local demands.

[strangy]

Cant sleep Rick?

[rick130]

Yep.
Instead of the normal 3:00am, wide awake, just to be different it was 1:30am this morning.....

[simmo]

Power. Did the tdi have cruise control?

to the question, I think to cruise at 70-80mph, the TD5 would be your only option from the two listed. On the flat the Disco2 TD5 will sit happily on 130kmh all day, faster will really compromise your range, and it will max out at just over 160kmh with a standard or tweaked engine. The Defender has a bit less power and aerodynamics so will be a bit slower.


I did an indicated 145 km hr once in my 300 tdi defender passing truck down a hill, the engine didn't feel comfortable.

I regularly cruise at a true 100 -110 kph, ( by GPS), the LR speedo has over 10km/hr error at 110 km/h.

With a roof rack on I would put the maximum cruising speed of a standard 300 tdi defender at 110 ks, (68 mph), about 125 k/hr indicated on my speedo.

even my car with a VNT, bigger IC, I wouldn't cruise above 110km/hr with a loaded roof rack. ( I load my roofrack "flat and low")

The boost is up an extra 5 psi at cruise because of the roof rack, but even without the roof rack the engine load goes up a lot between 90-110 k/h

The aerodynamics of the defender body are too much for the Tdi above 110 k/h IMV, Canada is a big place, sitting on an A road at 120 kms hr for thousands of kms might be asking a bit much for a 300 tdi IMV.

cheers simmo

[manic]

Canada is a big place, sitting on an A road at 120 kms hr for thousands of kms might be asking a bit much for a 300 tdi IMV.


Speed limit is likely 110kph or less for those long drives through Canada. My TDIs love to cruise at 115kph on the GPS and have done for 100,000s of kms.

Funny you mention 145kph in a tdi. I did the same in mine down hill 'passing a truck', except the TDI felt completly comfortable and at ease. This was with a fully loaded rack and the cargo area packed up to the rafters, heavily laden.

The difference in confidence is probably down to the gearing and perhaps general condition of the car, suspension/bushes/steering ujs etc etc.

If you are in a Defender screaming along at high revs, little to no sound proofing, driveline vibrating and steering wandering all over the place - YOU will limit your speed.

A TDI powered defender in all round good shape and well set up by previous owner will drive better than a neglected TD5 powered defender. So see whats on the market, LHD/RHD, test drive a bunch. If you are lucky you will find a gem (TDI or TD5)

[rick130]

Further to my post, I had a really nice Tdi in my old Deefer 130, particularly after I ported and installed the new AMC head, new pistons, injectors, fully balanced, etc.

It also had a 3" pipe and the fuel turned right up and would cruise easily at a genuine 110km/h fully loaded for work.

I now drive a stock TD5, albeit in a Disco.
It's a nicer drive.

[PAT303]

My Tdi is about to clock 520,000km's and has cost me about $500 in parts doing it,for me it's the best. Pat

[simmo]

Speed limit is likely 110kph or less for those long drives through Canada. My TDIs love to cruise at 115kph on the GPS and have done for 100,000s of kms.

Funny you mention 145kph in a tdi. I did the same in mine down hill 'passing a truck', except the TDI felt completly comfortable and at ease. This was with a fully loaded rack and the cargo area packed up to the rafters, heavily laden.

The difference in confidence is probably down to the gearing and perhaps general condition of the car, suspension/bushes/steering ujs etc etc.

If you are in a Defender screaming along at high revs, little to no sound proofing, driveline vibrating and steering wandering all over the place - YOU will limit your speed.

A TDI powered defender in all round good shape and well set up by previous owner will drive better than a neglected TD5 powered defender. So see whats on the market, LHD/RHD, test drive a bunch. If you are lucky you will find a gem (TDI or TD5)


Thanks Manic,
its good to hear your real experience with giving the 300 tdi a "flogging" :), and your confidence in the engine, Its very reassuring. ( are you still running standard gear ratios?)

My car always steers well etc, and was heavily loaded at the time, I think they feel better on the road loaded than not. But I do recall when doing 145 k-h thinking it sounds very busy down there. about 3700 rpm I think.
The defender transfer case gears don't help they are pretty noisy.

I'm now running a disco-2 TC and its a lot quieter, when i first drove it I thought there was a window open, I could hear "wind noise". (I don't have any extra soundproofing)

with my roof rack on at 110 km-h, (2400 rpm), I'm at 14-15 lbs boost and about 450-470 c egt, but the egt can climb up to 600 on the long hills, 650 C is my self imposed maximum, and i'll only sustain it for a short time. but notice the load goes up quickly over 100 k-h, as expected.

There's no escaping the aerodynamics of the defender, and roof rack makes a noticeable increase in drag, compared to driving without it.
Maybe I'm too gentle with mine,

cheers simmo

[manic]

Thanks Manic,
its good to hear your real experience with giving the 300 tdi a "flogging" :), and your confidence in the engine, Its very reassuring. ( are you still running standard gear ratios?)

My car always steers well etc, and was heavily loaded at the time, I think they feel better on the road loaded than not. But I do recall when doing 145 k-h thinking it sounds very busy down there. about 3700 rpm I think.
The defender transfer case gears don't help they are pretty noisy.

I'm now running a disco-2 TC and its a lot quieter, when i first drove it I thought there was a window open, I could hear "wind noise". (I don't have any extra soundproofing)

with my roof rack on at 110 km-h, (2400 rpm), I'm at 14-15 lbs boost and about 450-470 c egt, but the egt can climb up to 600 on the long hills, 650 C is my self imposed maximum, and i'll only sustain it for a short time. but notice the load goes up quickly over 100 k-h, as expected.

There's no escaping the aerodynamics of the defender, and roof rack makes a noticeable increase in drag, compared to driving without it.
Maybe I'm too gentle with mine,

cheers simmo




I'm now running a disco-2 TC and its a lot quieter, when i first drove it I thought there was a window open, I could hear "wind noise". (I don't have any extra soundproofing)

with my roof rack on at 110 km-h, (2400 rpm), I'm at 14-15 lbs boost and about 450-470 c egt,

Sounds like we have similar gearing. Im reving a little under yours on 33" tyres.

I would get 145kph at around 3100rpm. Up hills Im fine holding 110kph in 4th , which is also ~3100rpm. I will rev the hell out of a TDI so long as the EGTs are safe. If 3000 rpm sounds like the engine is about to jump onto your lap, you probably dont have enough sound proofing!

Standard gearing on a defender TDI or TD5 will see around 2800rpm at 110kph and 3650rpm at 145kph. Better ratios for hill starts and towing, but not a good song over 110kph.

[rick130]

Speed limit is likely 110kph or less for those long drives through Canada. My TDIs love to cruise at 115kph on the GPS and have done for 100,000s of kms.

Funny you mention 145kph in a tdi. I did the same in mine down hill 'passing a truck', except the TDI felt completly comfortable and at ease. This was with a fully loaded rack and the cargo area packed up to the rafters, heavily laden.

The difference in confidence is probably down to the gearing and perhaps general condition of the car, suspension/bushes/steering ujs etc etc.

If you are in a Defender screaming along at high revs, little to no sound proofing, driveline vibrating and steering wandering all over the place - YOU will limit your speed.

A TDI powered defender in all round good shape and well set up by previous owner will drive better than a neglected TD5 powered defender. So see whats on the market, LHD/RHD, test drive a bunch. If you are lucky you will find a gem (TDI or TD5)

Yes, my Tdi never felt stressed or like it was about to explode, it just revved cleanly to the limiter and went really well with the 255/85's and stock gearing suiting highway driving with loads. Towing was better with 235/85's though.
Apparently 200Tdi's can feel a bit agricultural