2.8 tgv diesel (big 300tdi ) power loss any ideas?

[finallyrangie]

Hello clever people

I have a 2.8 tgv diesel engine, basically a reworked and enlarged 300tdi, in a p38 range rover, I know , it seemed like a good idea at the time!

Straight after the engine swap (a couple of years ago now ) I was more than happy with the performance, mud tyres have slowed her down a bit but still no trouble keeping up with traffic or getting up hills, but over the last few months things have changed, I am way down on power, egt gauge has been on since the swap is now reading silly Temps at even moderate speeds, but that might be because of the large throttle openings to make it move. Starts after a few turns in the morning, used to be instant, but will go straight away for the rest of the day, revs roughfor a few blips of the throttle then will Rev okay up to about 2300, fights to 3k then seems to get a second wind and sets off towards 4k, but by then the egts are up and I am not happy about pushing it any further and back off.

So far I have,

Checked the lift pump, seems fine and fired diesel all over me when I tested it.
Changed the injectors, then bled the system
Checked all the valve clearances, changed a few
Panicked when I had no boost before I found the intake hose that had escaped .

Where should I go next, suggestions on what to look for and how to look for it greatly appreciated

Sorry it's a long post trying to get all the info in there so as not to waste anyone's time

Thanks in advance for any help

[LandyAndy]

From memory those motors have a VNT turbo dont they???
We recently had a truck at work with similar problem.It was the turbo,the VNT had lost its variable function.
Unsure how you check on a non electronic instal,ours showed up as a electronic fault logged.
Goodluck
Andrew

[rick130]

What you are describing is a classic lack of boost.
The actuator rod wears on the VNT vane mechanism and stops the bloody thing working.

Really common problem with them.
Pretty sure uninformed posted a photo here a year or two back.

[finallyrangie]

Boost gauge says a healthy 20 psi at 1500rpm, that's what I am struggling with, I have plenty of boost and high egts, not sure what is making it work so hard, I even went so far as to check if the brakes were binding when it started happening, now it's definitely an engine issue

Thanks for the suggestions, keep em coming I need all the help I can get

[rick130]

Hmm, that blows mine and Andy's theory, doesn't it !

OK, some sort of air restriction.

Blocked air filter, delaminating hose (internally)

Dirty intercooler (oil internally and dirty externally)

[finallyrangie]

Boost gauge is plumbed in at the intake, so 20 psi going into the engine, all hoses are silicon so shouldn't be delaminating and the intercooler wasnew when the engine was installed, the inside of the hoses actually look pretty clean, I had some of them off to check for blockages

[finallyrangie]

Also new air filter, just in case

[roverrescue]

As per rick list but also add in timing
Check the plunger lift at tdc

[finallyrangie]

Is it possible for the timing to change once it's set, would that be a timing belt jumping a tooth thing, I say that sounding like I know, can it happen?

[rick130]

As per rick list but also add in timing
Check the plunger lift at tdc


That's about the only other thing.
When you checked the tappets, the lash caps were all Ok ?

[finallyrangie]

All the caps appeared to be present and correct, and the gaps were either correct or close, nothing that could cause the problem I don't think

[Aaron IIA]

I would suggest to check the cam timing. If that is correct, then check the timing of the fuel pump.

Aaron

[rick130]

I suppose the question needs to be asked, how many km on the timing belt ?

[finallyrangie]

I suppose the question needs to be asked, how many km on the timing belt ?


New belt went in when the engine was swapped, done about 50k since, so it's not new but I would like to think they last longer than that, if I'm wrong I am happy to be told.

[finallyrangie]

So I have checked with Google, would it be correct to say that the injector pump timing can only be altered by adjusting the timing belt end of things?

Is it likely, or indeed possible for it to go from a fine running and well adjusted set up to what I have now without being mucked about with?

I'm only asking as I am starting to get outside of my comfort zone in a big way and might have to wave the white flag and get it done rather than do it.

Thanks again for all the help either way

[Aaron IIA]

The timing can get out if the cam belt jumps a tooth. Does this engine have an EP mark on the flywheel?

Aaron

[rick130]

New belt went in when the engine was swapped, done about 50k since, so it's not new but I would like to think they last longer than that, if I'm wrong I am happy to be told.





The basic rule of thumb is 80,000km for a belt but they'll go longer than that quite happily, although not recommended here in Oz.
In temperate zones IIRC the changeout km is 115,000km.

The genuine HS2.8 timing belt is actually an HD version of the Tdi one from when a ate chased up the slight variation in part number, but you can't get them here at all so everyone just uses the Tdi version.
The cam and pump pulleys on the MWM International engine are better quality items than the Tdi too, being cast and machined rather than pressed metal.

[finallyrangie]

The belt we fitted was a standard 300tdi one as you say couldn't get a 2.8 one, but they did appear to be identical.

I don't know if there is a mark on the flywheel but as long as it stops raining sometime tomorrow I will have a look, we have a storm supercell hereat present, it's a bit damp with no shed.

80k is good to know, I had in my head 100 being alright, but if changing it now sorts the problem then it's a job worth doing, is there any way of stopping the new one from jumping as well or do they just stretch as they age?

[rick130]

Jumping a tooth is unusual, unless the tensioner pulley bolt has loosened (it's loctited so shouldn't) or if they do excessive km they can strip a tooth, but I've seen belts with 130,000km and they looked pretty good (although definitely not recommended)

Belt tension is critical, the tension in the '98 workshop manual is too high and that can cause problems of premature wear.

There's a later TSB recommending a lower tension.
That should be followed.

And mad storms here in NSW and the ACT too, good luck.

[Tins]

Bit of a long shot, but you haven't squashed or otherwise restricted your exhaust in any way?

[bee utey]

A 300TDi I replaced the timing belt on a couple of years ago had excessive wear on the key on the crankshaft, because the bottom pulley bolt hadn't been done up properly. With everything new and correctly aligned that engine now goes very well.

[finallyrangie]

Exhaust system seems to be fine, it's tucked away far enough that it doesn't get to much hammer off road.

Starting to look like I am up for a new timing belt, don't mind if it fixes it, I suppose I'm in to far to stop now!

[PAT303]

Take the exhaust off before the muffler and drive around the block,it could be the cause. Pat

[finallyrangie]

Quick update

Tried the cylinder test, disconnecting the injectors one at a time to see if it madea difference, and on number 4 it didn't so off to the mechanic we went for a compression test. number 4 was 'slow to come up ' was how he put it, basically it's running on 3 cylinders.

Got the head off this afternoon and took a look, expecting a fairly obvious valve, piston or crack to present itself, well it doesn't look new, there is nothing that looks like it could be causing the problem either.


I would be very grateful if anyone can give me an idea of what else I'm looking for, I was sure I would be able to spot the issue once it was apart, turns out not.

Thanks for any hints

[bee utey]

The valve clearances should have been checked before lifting the head, a closed up valve would have taken minutes to adjust. Run a straight edge across all the valve stems, look for a valve sitting noticeably higher or lower on the low comp cylinder.

The bores should be carefully inspected. Any cylinder with a broken top compression ring will have dull marks below the top of the ring contact patch on the bores.

[finallyrangie]

Valve clearances all checked and adjusted as part of the fault finding , non were far out and didn't change anything.

I will check the bores for wear marks tomorrow

Thanks

[finallyrangie]

Just wondering if anyone knows of a good head rebuilder Brisbane north side, looks like it's a valve seating issue.

[PAT303]

Whats the actual problem?,is the valve seat damaged or the valve not seating?. Pat

[finallyrangie]

Looks like the valve is not seating the inlet on number 4 is almost as dirty as the exhaust side

I am hoping that's the problem as there is nothing else obvious

[PAT303]

Have you tried lapping it?,very easy to do. Pat

[schuy1]

Like Pat said a simple lapping should fix it unless the valve is very warped. And how about unlocking the Caps key? Most of us can read normal lettering.
Cheers Scott

[finallyrangie]

. And how about unlocking the Caps key? Most of us can read normal lettering.
Cheers Scott


Sorry about that , doing it on the phone and I'm a bit technically challenged

[vnx205]

Like Pat said a simple lapping should fix it unless the valve is very warped. And how about unlocking the Caps key? Most of us can read normal lettering.
Cheers Scott


Sorry about that , doing it on the phone and I'm a bit technically challenged

??
On my screen the text isn't capitals.

It is just large lower case.

I prefer that to the tiny, coloured fonts that some people occasionally use. :)

[finallyrangie]

Head is off for pressure testing today, provided it's not cracked everything is being fitted back in for the weekend, all nicely machined

Hopefully that's the fix I've been looking for.


I thought I was just making the text bigger, makes it easier to see on the phone screen.

[vnx205]

... .... ....

I thought I was just making the text bigger, makes it easier to see on the phone screen.




That is right. That is exactly what you did. Some of us don't mind one little bit when you make the text bigger. :)

[finallyrangie]

Technically challenged and making the text bigger so I can see it, when did it come to this

[superquag]

... Been happening slowly over the last 40 years... and it ain't gunna get any better. :(

[Tins]

Technically challenged and making the text bigger so I can see it, when did it come to this




I'm 62. Although I can still read most things without glasses I don't care how big you make your font.

[finallyrangie]

Hello people, just a quick update.

After a head test (not cracked ) and rebuild everything finally went back together, but still only firing on three cylinders, checked the injectors one at a time and now number one isn't firing, so we put back one of the old injectors and we have four cylinders!

Here comes the question, the engine is still very down on power and the egts are still much to high for the road speed.

I have tried changing the fuel filter again, there did seem to be a bit of contamination when we emptied it out for a look, but not much.

Any suggestions for things we can check next.

Thanks for any hints, tips or advice

[loanrangie]

High egt means low boost, how is the turbo ?

[PAT303]

If you've checked all the mechanical s maybe it's time for a dyno run to find whats what. Pat

[justinc]

Timed properly?? Retarded timing will give huge egt and low power.

Jc

[finallyrangie]

High egt means low boost, how is the turbo ?


Boost gauge at the intake says a nice healthy 19 psi at 1500 rpm, so I am hoping that's not a problem .

[finallyrangie]

Timed properly?? Retarded timing will give huge egt and low power.

Jc

Timing belt is 50k old, maybe time for an early change

[roverrescue]

Im with JC and have been all along

-check the FIP plunger lift at TDC - that is the best (most accurate) way to ensure FIP timing is correct
-cam timing youll need to take the front case off

s

[finallyrangie]

Im with JC and have been all along

-check the FIP plunger lift at TDC - that is the best (most accurate) way to ensure FIP timing is correct
-cam timing youll need to take the front case off

s
I didn't realise the timing could be checked without taking the front cover off, I will do a search for that as soon as I get chance


Thanks

[loanrangie]

I didn't realise the timing could be checked without taking the front cover off, I will do a search for that as soon as I get chance


Thanks

Thats injection timing not cam timing.

[schuy1]

Sorry about that , doing it on the phone and I'm a bit technically challenged

Ahh right. Yeah well Im a bit old school here, still use a PC to access the internet! How ancient mariner is that?;) and for me that text is LOUD!! can read the laptop screen across the room:D Ya'll need to live where there is no 'phone access for a while:tease::Rolling:
Cheers Scott

[finallyrangie]

Im with JC and have been all along

-check the FIP plunger lift at TDC - that is the best (most accurate) way to ensure FIP timing is correct
-cam timing youll need to take the front case off

s

Had a quick look last night, doesn't look like I have the flywheel locking marks on this combination, what would be the best way to find tdc, at the moment I am thinking of taking out number 1 injector and putting a bit of ally wire in as a gauge and just winding around until it's at the top of its travel, should be pretty obvious if it's 180 degrees out, then adjust to get a 9.5 drill bit into the pump locking hole.

That's the plan, I am more than happy to be told where I will be going wrong

[roverrescue]

I guess its a crap shot over pulling an injector or pulling the rocker cover?
Either will give you definitive TDC

If your flywheel is missing the timing groove - praytell how did you do the timing belt last time?

With regards to FIP timing a drill bit through the front is the quick easy loose manner to check timing.
Removing the centre cap from amongst the FIP fuel lines, using a dial test indicator and plunger screwed into the centre cap and physically measuring the plunger lift as you rock around TDC is the accurate way to assess/adjust FIP timing.

If your flywheel does indeed have no grooves marked into it - I would have a very low threshold to pull the timing case, assess TDC (mark the flywheel) and correctly time the cam and FIP.

There really is not too much tot he timing of a tdi
cam is either right or off by a tooth
FIP is infinitely adjustable within a certain range and this will effect EGTs and power.

You have obviously already payed for head work on the old girl... timing is likely where the problem will lay

s

[finallyrangie]

How can I get tdc by taking the rocker cover off, if there is a straight forward way to do that it would be the easier option I think


Last time we did the timing we just lined up all the marks got a drill in the injector pump and put it back together, has been fine for almost two years, if it is the timing I'm a bit worried as to why it's out now, performance has slowly gone down until we have reached this sorry state but I was expecting more than 50k from the timing belt could it just have stretched in its middle age or should I be looking to replace it sooner rather than later?

Should know tomorrow if it's timing or not, I will post the results


Thanks again

[finallyrangie]

With regards to FIP timing a drill bit through the front is the quick easy loose manner to check timing.
Removing the centre cap from amongst the FIP fuel lines, using a dial test indicator and plunger screwed into the centre cap and physically measuring the plunger lift as you rock around TDC is the accurate way to assess/adjust FIP timing.


s

Unfortunately I don't have the required tooling to test it, I do have a drill bit so I thought I would try it with that and if it's the problem it might be a trip to the landrover specialist and get them to do it properly, as much as anything I'm trying to be sure I know what the problem is before I pay money for the fix.

You are, of course, quite right to say the dial gauge is the most accurate way to test the timing, not something I can do at the moment though.

Thanks for all your help so far

[roverrescue]

Im not sure why your timing would have gone off over two years - belt wear is a possibility albeit unlikely... how secure was the retaining plate on the FIP when you did your belt change?

The factory method to do a belt is lock the flywheel, lock the FIP rotor (drill bit if you like) loosen the retaining plate for FIP and juggle the belt on while making sure cam stays on its marks. If the flywheel is not locked I guess it is possible to use rock in the crank to align the teeth rather than adjusting the retaining plate of the FIP... This would likely show up earlier than 2years 50,oookm BUT If your retaining plate loosens then FIP timing can go out by a significant margin.

Depending on what diameter pin(drill bit) you lock the FIP rotor with it is possible to advance retard the pump significantly.

I think your best bet is to pull the timing cover and have a look at cam and FIP timing?
You will need to establish TDC somehow

You can establish TDC by monitoring the valve train...
I could write it out or otherwise I just stole the below from here

Finding TOP DEAD CENTER (TDC) Casually (http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cs111a.htm)


Very often you have a completely assembled engine, and you can use the timing mark on the crankshaft pulley to find TDC. This however does not tell you if it is on the compression stroke or exhaust stroke, which are 360 degrees apart, or offset by one complete rotation of the crankshaft. With TDC on the compression stroke the intake and exhaust valves are both closed. With TDC on the exhaust stroke the intake and exhaust valves are both open (partially open). For this you can remove the valve cover and look at the rocker arms to see which ones are fully up (slightly loose) and which ones are partly depressed (intake and exhaust arms at the same height), one moving up while the other is moving down.

[finallyrangie]

So I located tdc, aluminum rod down the injector hole, and took the cover plate off of the front of the pump, the timing is so far out it actually won't line up with the hole, I mean can't even see it, getting the pin in the hole moves the piston well past tdc, would that be consistent with jumping a tooth on the belt?

Timing belt kit next I am thinking.

Really hope that's the issue, swmbo is starting to talk about getting rid, this looks like my last attempt

[roverrescue]

Possible teeth movement or possible that the FIP retaining plate is loose and let the spring pressure work against the pulley location?

Is the belt loose? like super loose? you could check the tension on the belt (supposed to be 11Nm from memory) measured at the tensioner pulley?

At TDC does the cam pulley mark line up with the cast pedestal in the case? ie is cam timing spot on?

When the the new belt arrives, get the pump locked in position. Align flywheel/no.1 piston at TDC (lock it somehow if you can) and align cam timing. Put on new belt and tension up.

Whatever the cause, if at TDC the FIP is not aligned THAT is why she is running like crap and EGTs are up.

Either ****ty belt or FIP retaining plate issue?

You have found the problem, FIP timing was out.
Fix it and voila

S

[finallyrangie]

Well the plan is to get the front cover off and have a look, I am hoping that the timing will be obviously way out and that will be that ,


Will let you all know how it goes

[finallyrangie]

Well the front cover came off over the weekend, and as you guys predicted the timing was way out,couple of teeth at least, so with a light heart we got eveything lined up, pin in the injector pump, and put it back together.

It still won't start, with all the marks lined up (bearing in mind I have no flywheel locking position so we turned the engine until the arrow on the casting met the mark on the wheel ), is it possible for it to be 180 degrees out, or am I clutching at straws now?

This is really starting to get to me now.

Any hints very greatly appreciated

[jboot51]

If you want I might be able to get up to berpengary tomorrow afternoon and have a look for you.
I have the timing tools for 300 tdi so I assume they will fit.


Send me a pm with your phone number and address, If I finish work early enough I'll give you a call.


Cheers
Tony

[Blknight.aus]

yes you can set yourself up 180 degrees out and its stupidly easy toget the cam timing out a tooth or 2. From memory you dont get valves to pistons contact till you are more than 2 teeth out of in position.

heres my howto on it, if it helps

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html

post 9 details recovering from timing out of spec without specialist tools.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html

[finallyrangie]

If you want I might be able to get up to berpengary tomorrow afternoon and have a look for you.
I have the timing tools for 300 tdi so I assume they will fit.


Send me a pm with your phone number and address, If I finish work early enough I'll give you a call.


Cheers
Tony


Thanks so much

PM sent

[finallyrangie]

yes you can set yourself up 180 degrees out and its stupidly easy toget the cam timing out a tooth or 2. From memory you dont get valves to pistons contact till you are more than 2 teeth out of in position.

heres my howto on it, if it helps

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html

post 9 details recovering from timing out of spec without specialist tools.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/133800-tdi300-timing-belt.html


I have been reading and digesting, thanks.

The only thing I don't understand is how it canbe so far out it was running rough, we left everything else alone and just moved the injector pump pulley round so the pin went in, it shouldn't be this hard.

We are giving it a try without the radiator or anything reconnected, just wanted to run it for 2 seconds so we knew it did , there's no reason it wouldn't fire because of that is there, I'm pretty sure we tested it like that last time

[roverrescue]

Did you put the fuel solenoid wiring back in place assuming you disconnected to undo crank bolt? So you have no.1 tdc aligned as per your rod down the glow. FIP aligned and locked. Cam aligned. Belt on and tensioned. Cycled it a few times before checking marks all line up. Then gave it a shot at the title and it spun on the starter but wouldn't fire?

If so I'd be guessing some twit has played with the order of injection lines or some difference between 300tdi and 2.8 conversion....

You need to go to first principles...

Annoying I know

S

[finallyrangie]

Thanks to jboot51, you are a gentleman and all round top bloke, it was a pleasure to meet someone so knowledgeable, and a proper land Rover man.

Turns out we got caught with a difference between engines, on the tgv the injector pump is sitting upright rather than being on an angle as the 300tdi is, which means the locking pin fits at 12 o'clock rather than off to the left, we ended up getting the keyway for the crank pulley to the top, refitting the cover plate and pulley wheel and getting a set square to line up with the mark on the pulley to the arrow on the casting. Then took it all to bits again, being very careful not to move anything and reset the timing with the correct pin in the correct hole.

Kicked her over and she started instantly!

So if you have a tgv diesel engine, the locking pin for the injector pump doesn't go at the same angle as a 300tdi, even though there seems to be a hole for it to fit into.


Gary ( jboot51 ) you are the nicest bloke on earth and I cannot tell you how grateful I am, not sure I would ever have figured it out.

Couple of bearings to sort out and hopefully back together this week, I will let you all know how the test drive goes