LPG Fumigation

[abaddonxi]

Hi All

Saw this mentioned in the td5 ecu software upgrade thread and thought it could do with a little more discussion in its own right.


But having said that, I think the LPG fumigation www.dieselgas.com.au (http://www.dieselgas.com.au) would be more cost effective for a bigger power gain, especially if one were considering exhaust and turbo upgrades to go with it. Plus the LPG fumigation can be easily transferred to another vehicle.

I was wondering if any of you have tried this or seen it fitted?

And how much difference there is between this and acetone or petrol into the diesel tank.

Lo-tech version I know, but the theory seems v similar.

Looks like a nice idea, but $3k price tag made me think more than twice.

Last time I had LPG conversion I think it was $1600, a good few years ago, and I reckon I was overcharged for it. Almost twice seems like a monster gouge.

Cheers

Simon

[igould]

I've been looking at the posts about this with interest as I'm about to pick up a Td5 Disco.
It got me thinking. Would LPG/diesel be any different to mixing a bit of unleaded (premium?) in with the diesel when filling up?
If not, this sounds a lot cheaper.
Someone wiser than I would need to calculate appropriate diesel/petrol ratios.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Ian

[George130]

I contacted this mob and was quoted $3630 with a choice of either 28 or 50 litre tank. The cost to convert a petrol car should be $1500 - $2500. I have talk to friends about it and they were saying they could get me the mixer for $55 and the computer for $400-$500 but it would still need programming.
I'm very interested in more info. I have read a few articles from overseas that do support the claims.

[disconut]

I was quoted this.

"Basic kit price for a Defender is $3300+GST. This includes a single LPG tank up to 50l. On the Defender we usually use a 28l unit mounted under the drivers door."

If the price of LPG remains stable, and is not linked to fuel prices, it is a viable proposition to help spin out the diesel and gain more power.

If you just want power, go for the chip!. (While diesel is still affordable!)

Trev.

[p38arover]

What price is the chip?

What are the power gains in comparison with LPG fumigation?


Ron

[p38arover]

Originally posted by abaddonxi
Looks like a nice idea, but $3k price tag made me think more than twice.

Last time I had LPG conversion I think it was $1600, a good few years ago, and I reckon I was overcharged for it. Almost twice seems like a monster gouge.

My first RR LPG conversion cost $1800 - that was in 1997 when LPG was costing 21 c/litre and petrol was about 75c (according to my records for that car).

My current RR was converted for the previous owner in Oct 2001 at a cost of $3025 - and it's nowhere as good a job as that done by the blokes who did the first car.

Ron

[disconut]

Originally posted by p38arover
What price is the chip?

What are the power gains in comparison with LPG fumigation?


Ron

Chip $1000 power 96Kw to 135Kw torque 333Nm to 450Nm

Gas about 20% increase from standard I think. Check the web site for more info.

http://www.dieselgas.com.au/home.htm


Trev.

[George130]

Thanks for the chip info I was wondering what my power stats were.

[Ace]

But does the LPG stretch the diesel out enough to offset the cost of buying the LPG in the first place?, and how long would it take to offset the cost of installing the kit? Matt

[George130]

2.5 years for me or 100,000k's. Thats based on current prices for fuel in canberra and the estimates I was quoted. The good thing is it would up my range to almost 1800k's a tank. My diesel consumption is currently around 11.4l/100km and they think it would drop to 8 or 9.

[p38arover]

Originally posted by Ace
But does the LPG stretch the diesel out enough to offset the cost of buying the LPG in the first place?, and how long would it take to offset the cost of installing the kit? Matt

One buys this kit for the improvement in power - any fuel savings would take forever to cover the costs. It will increase your range but you have actually added another tank containing 30 litres of fuel.

Ron

[abaddonxi]

I really like the sound of this.

Saves money, clean, good for the engine, better for teh environment, more power.

Does it do what it says?

But, from the couple of websites, all I saw was testimonials and dyno results with pictures of their dyno in the background.

I'm a bit wary of fuel improvement gadgets.

This guy http://www.dansdata.com/danletters102b.htm and here http://www.dansdata.com/danletters071.htm does a great line on debunking this stuff - scroll down to find it.

Point is that if it does the trick and is genuine wouldn't they have reference to independant testing? Something outside of their own sales pitch.

The flip side of this is that I've never heard anyone question LPG as an alternative fuel source.

What I mean is that ther really isn't a question that LPG does what it says. This other stuff is almost smoke and mirrors. I guess it is the difference between a fuel source and a fuel extender.

Come to think ofit, last time I got LPG on I did it 'cos I knew taxi drivers burned LPG and it was cheap (14c a litre, don't you just wish.) I think it went up to 17 the week I got it on and 21 in the next couple of months.

So, does anyone know of this diesel/LPG thing actually doing what it says?

Cheers

Simon

[p38arover]

Originally posted by abaddonxi
So, does anyone know of this diesel/LPG thing actually doing what it says?

Come out to Penrith a test drive the Defender or Patrol with it switched in and out.

It seemed to work exceptionally well when I drove it.

Everyone keeps thinking improved fuel economy. Forget economy in terms of litres/100km which is what those site you referenced are talking about.

If there is any economy changes it is in the extended range from the greater fuel load and the fact that 30 litres of the fuel is 1/3rd the price of diesel.

Look at this as a performance improver.

Oh, it's not their dyno. They don't have one so they can't fake the figures. That's a local commercial dyno operator.


Ron

[abaddonxi]

Damn, now my brain's started working.

check out these websites
http://www.iwemalpg.com/Diesel_LPG.htm
http://www.radisol.com/dieseldynamics/
http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/lpgsys.html
http://www.autogasonestop.com/diesel.htm

Now

What do they do about RTA compliance?
Do they guarantee the installation?
What happens if my engine blows up 'cos it has all of this kryptonite under the hood?
If the system is as simple, in terms of LPG injected to performance/tuning as the first link suggests why does it all cost so much?

The site implies that diesel use is monitored and LPG injection is controlled by a simple percentage of diesel used on the fly.

I had been thinking that all the money was in the computer, I guess that was the wrong idea.


Or you could read this page
http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm which seems to explain things quite well.

He is mad, though.

I reckon he must have spent about $100 on his system. and for the extra $2900 or so I'd hope not to get rust or a bbq bottle.

Well that's my rant of the moment.

Cheers,

Simon.


Ah, if you want to read some of the science http://www.paper.edu.cn/english/process/do...?file=200508-37 (http://www.paper.edu.cn/english/process/download.jsp?file=200508-37)

[abaddonxi]

Just can't leave it alone

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The fumigation process is as old as old man Diesel himself, it was actually the first process used before injection was introduced. They called it "Erd Gas" or "Earth Gas", more commonly known as methane. Small to moderate amounts of methane allow for substantial power increases of the engine, so the diesel amount was reduced to retain the standard power levels. This system is in wide use around the world, and may known as "Pilot Ignition".
Propane has different combustion characteristics than methane. Using small amounts can provide significant amounts of power increases but using more will provide combustion pressure spikes which can indeed pop head bolts, burn turbos, scorch pistons and cylinders. Repeated in field tests show that using propane substitution for diesel at ratios much over 15% can lead to dangerous engine conditions, but higher substitution ratios can be used if diesel levels are reduced.
Some of the do-it-yourself websites claim "user adjustable power levels"(!), "easily removed if the vehicle needs to be returned to the dealer for engine warranty service"(!), "the use of LPG acts as a catalyst to make the diesel fuel burn more completely"(!).
Hmmm, maybe I missed something in the "hype and marketing" classes I was supposed to attend! Sounds like bull droppings to me!
Franz[/b][/quote]

From this site http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid...d=123560&page=5 (http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=123560&page=5)

and this page
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=7832&page=1