Bushfire-resistant houses

[DiscoMick]

Sounds like a good idea. You'd think it would be a no-brainer in this country. So, why don't more people build houses which can resist bushfires? Is it because the designs they see look a bit weird, such as underground houses?
It is possible to make apparently conventional houses more able to resist fires, by measures such as shutters to block out embers.
Anyone on here done something like this?


Bushfire-proof houses are affordable and look good (http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/feb/09/bushfire-proof-houses-black-saturday-innovations)

[DiscoMick]

So no-one has fire-proofed their house? Gonna become more important as the bushfire hazard continues to get worse because of climate warming.


Are we causing longer, more intense bushfire seasons? - The Drum (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-08/connor-are-we-causing-longer,-more-intense-bushfire-seasons/7149044)

[Bushie]

Not sure about other states but in NSW if you are identified as in a bushfire prone area then you pretty much have to build a bushfire resistant house (needs to comply with AS2959).

There are different levels (Bushfire attack level) BAL 12.5/BAL 19/BAL 29/BAL 40 and flame zone, each have different conditions depending upon the level of radiant heat impacting ie 12.5kW/m2 through to direct flame contact.
All the levels are aimed at preventing ember entry/attack and piloted ignitions of timber etc.
Once the Fire Danger Index goes above 100 (ie Catastrophic) then there is little that current designs and materials can do to help.

There is no such thing as a bushfire proof house though and no substitute for separation from the hazard. Around 95% of losses will be within 100m of the bush

I think most states are some way behind NSW in this regard though, with Vic probably the closest.

We are also living with a historical issue where bushfire wasn't considered in earlier planning, so in some places there is no potential to get the house further away from the scrub, or fix an older home.

More Info (NSW) (http://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/plan-and-prepare/building-in-a-bush-fire-area)


Martyn

[ramblingboy42]

come on, this is Australia, we are tough.

the community cost and grief from fires in this country is astronomical and appears to worsen each year instead of improving and learning from lessons.

in the northern hemisphere every home that is affected by cold temperatures ie snow , cold winds , cold rains , ice buildup.....are built to protect the occupants so that they don't die of cold.

why then do we build houses that can be effected by heat and fire in zones that are known historically for it happening? in other words we don't build to design to protect occupants from death caused by heat.....it's going to get worse natuarally by global warming let alone bushfires.

[slug_burner]

It is not just heat although that plays a big part, there is the lack of oxygen and the wind storm that comes with the fire. Sure you can build underground but it is expensive and lots of people don't want to live underground.


Costs plays a big part, the building industry is setup to build using the same materials and techniques that most of our houses have been built with. Anything different costs. People think it will not happen to them and those that do run into lots of brick walls with regard to building regulations. There are people who would like to build earthships using earth rammed tyres for walls and other materials other than the regular stick frame. The standards just don't exist to allow people to convince the inectors and insurance companies that it is a genuine house.

We are slow to change. It will take a few more Black Saturdays, hundreds more killed before we see significant change in this area.

[Don 130]

This professor saved his S.A. House by activating sprinklers from Darwin with his phone.

Professor saves home with smart sprinklers from 3,000km away (http://www.engadget.com/2015/11/29/australia-bushfire-home-phone/)

All hope is not lost. Even simple stuff can be helpful. Sprinklers are easy to arrange.

Don.

[Simon]

If there is little to be done once things become catastrophic is there an argument for allowing minimal fire resistance builds but quid pro quo is must vacate and nil assistance in rebuild etc.

Just throwing a thought out. I have no bushfire experience, so happy to learn from others experience.

[Barefoot Dave]

Strangely,I am yet to hear anyone in the last 5 years discuss the option of straw bale cladding. retrofit almost any home.
Amazingly effective when combined with shutters and sprinklers.

[LandyAndy]

I dont know how much bushfire experience the posters have.
Resistant would be the best you could possibly hope for.
Fires are self feeding monsters,until you have seen the power of the wind and noise they develop with the ember storm its hard to appreciate.
In the Boddington fires I experienced stuff I NEVER want to see again,Im greatfull NOBODY was badly injured.
I have 20 years experience around fires now,the older I get and the more I attend the more they spook me.
Part of my job involves being sent out to fires to put fire breaks in.
Andrew

[DiscoMick]

I grew up on a farm so I've seen fires. Some nothing would stop because the embers were blowing way ahead of the front.
With underground houses, is loss of oxygen the main problem?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[slug_burner]

I grew up on a farm so I've seen fires. Some nothing would stop because the embers were blowing way ahead of the front.
With underground houses, is loss of oxygen the main problem?

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

Oxygen inside a building will sustain people for a while, for most fires long it enough for it to pass.

[Bushie]

A bit more insight

We will rebuild (http://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/feb/09/bushfire-proof-houses-black-saturday-innovations)


Martyn

[DiscoMick]

I've liked the idea of building underground ever since I went inside underground houses at Coober Pedy years ago, but I've never had the opportunity to try building one.
Apart from fire safety they are also much cooler in hot weather. I think the Coober Pedy ones were 21 degrees.

On the surface, is it better to surround a house with concrete slabs or mown grass for fire resistance?

[slug_burner]

I think that it is more a case of the value people place of these things when there is no fire. Green grass is much more appealing than concrete for many of us. The evaporation coming off the grass has a cooling effect not provided by concrete, much more re radiation of concrete. If you can maintain a well groomed lawn I'd go the grass.

[PAT303]

The townships south of Perth that burned out were established over 100 years ago,the timber in them is so old and dry as soon as the fire hit them they burned out,but now they are gone they should be replaced with houses built to a modern standard,and we should have heavy lift fire fighting aircraft,we only need one that can be used anywhere it is needed. Pat

[cafe latte]

I dont know how much bushfire experience the posters have.
Resistant would be the best you could possibly hope for.
Fires are self feeding monsters,until you have seen the power of the wind and noise they develop with the ember storm its hard to appreciate.
In the Boddington fires I experienced stuff I NEVER want to see again,Im greatfull NOBODY was badly injured.
I have 20 years experience around fires now,the older I get and the more I attend the more they spook me.
Part of my job involves being sent out to fires to put fire breaks in.
Andrew

I am first officer of my local rural brigade and I am in the paid town brigade too. In the training for the Urban's the resistance of homes was covered at length, different construction techniques etc. Building a fire proof home against the fires you get in the south is virtually impossible. Apart the huge temperatures, the toxic gasses and lack of oxygen no matter how you build it will not be survivable. Wearing full turnout gear and BA a firefighter can survive for maybe half an hour in modest temperatures, at 5-600 degrees only maybe 15 minutes. During a firestorm many building materials will reach quickly its auto ignition temperature and the house will be lost. When the fire travels in the canopy in these fires temperatures are extreme, the only survival method is not to be there.
Chris

[gusthedog]

Here's one for you. Why doesn't anyone put in an approved or build an approved bushfire shelter on their property? Commercial ones are available that are building standard approved which pass strict fire tests. They only cost 10k and will protect a family of four for an hour (that's when they run out of oxygen - which is plenty of time for a fire front). Cheap insurance when you're talking peoples lives.

Pricey

[LandyAndy]

I am first officer of my local rural brigade and I am in the paid town brigade too. In the training for the Urban's the resistance of homes was covered at length, different construction techniques etc. Building a fire proof home against the fires you get in the south is virtually impossible. Apart the huge temperatures, the toxic gasses and lack of oxygen no matter how you build it will not be survivable. Wearing full turnout gear and BA a firefighter can survive for maybe half an hour in modest temperatures, at 5-600 degrees only maybe 15 minutes. During a firestorm many building materials will reach quickly its auto ignition temperature and the house will be lost. When the fire travels in the canopy in these fires temperatures are extreme, the only survival method is not to be there.
Chris

Chris in the Boddington fire we got abandonded by the FESA and DPAW fire fighters.Their figherfighters and appliances were withdrawn,they left the farmers,shire workers and contractors to it.1 FESA team refused to leave their post,a farmhouse in front of the fire.They saved the house,had to contaminate the farmhouse watertank with BFF wich Im told is a big no no.It was used to save themselves and the homestead.Well done I say.

Nobody was happy to see the 40+ prossesion of government fire units that flowed in to mop up after the danger was over.They were left with it:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

We had put firebreaks in a standing oat crop with the graders,then an illegal backburn in the oat crop was conducted by the farmer fire fighers.The result was exceptional,we stopped a running crown fire as it came out of the forrest.

A few pics.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/562.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/012_zpswumlclyl.jpg.html)

Fireballs in the sky.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/563.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/011_zpsecxfz0ud.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/564.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/013_zpsacfmuvat.jpg.html)

Farmers cutting a fence so I could grade a track off the bitumen and thru the drain.Note the fireballs above them.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/565.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/014_zpsf6vuzqla.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/566.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/015_zpsty9vxzro.jpg.html)

Then it went very dark,this was at 4pm,at this stage I was getting pretty concerned about getting torched,didnt dare drive off as there was no visability and I was worried about driving over a firefighters ute.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/567.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/016_zpsa9zpuvum.jpg.html)

Soon after the main fire was out,daylight returned.Helitacs arrived to help with the spot fires.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/502.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/018_zpsmswearln.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/568.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/019_zpskaalpaku.jpg.html)

The carnage the next day where we stopped the fire.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/569.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/002_zpsx8ahyics.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/570.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/003_zpsbgwxgunp.jpg.html)

Andrew

[Barefoot Dave]

Incredible heroic work, mate! Well done to all of you.

[LandyAndy]

Incredible heroic work, mate! Well done to all of you.

I have managed to get out of 2 fires since that fire,trouble is I sent a lesser experienced operator in,as my grader was futher away.It plays on my concience.
Probably done 6 fires myself since the Boddington fire,not a favorite job.
Andrew

[Barefoot Dave]

I agree with what you said earlier about fire monsters and what chance you have. I wear orange not yellow for that reason. Give me flood or tempest any day. I dips me lid to you Sir.

[cafe latte]

Chris in the Boddington fire we got abandonded by the FESA and DPAW fire fighters.Their figherfighters and appliances were withdrawn,they left the farmers,shire workers and contractors to it.1 FESA team refused to leave their post,a farmhouse in front of the fire.They saved the house,had to contaminate the farmhouse watertank with BFF wich Im told is a big no no.It was used to save themselves and the homestead.Well done I say.

Nobody was happy to see the 40+ prossesion of government fire units that flowed in to mop up after the danger was over.They were left with it:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

We had put firebreaks in a standing oat crop with the graders,then an illegal backburn in the oat crop was conducted by the farmer fire fighers.The result was exceptional,we stopped a running crown fire as it came out of the forrest.

A few pics.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/562.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/012_zpswumlclyl.jpg.html)

Fireballs in the sky.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/563.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/011_zpsecxfz0ud.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/564.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/013_zpsacfmuvat.jpg.html)

Farmers cutting a fence so I could grade a track off the bitumen and thru the drain.Note the fireballs above them.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/565.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/014_zpsf6vuzqla.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/566.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/015_zpsty9vxzro.jpg.html)

Then it went very dark,this was at 4pm,at this stage I was getting pretty concerned about getting torched,didnt dare drive off as there was no visability and I was worried about driving over a firefighters ute.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/567.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/016_zpsa9zpuvum.jpg.html)

Soon after the main fire was out,daylight returned.Helitacs arrived to help with the spot fires.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/502.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/018_zpsmswearln.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/568.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/019_zpskaalpaku.jpg.html)

The carnage the next day where we stopped the fire.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/569.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/002_zpsx8ahyics.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/02/570.jpg (http://s113.photobucket.com/user/LandyAndy_2006/media/003_zpsbgwxgunp.jpg.html)

Andrew

Butt covering is the problem Andrew. The brass cant have volunteers burned so when things get even a little dangerous they will be pulled out. Even in the Urban brigade we are taught from the beginning to protect yourself first. Truth is we dont, all to me is a measured risk, but it is the training...
Chris

[DiscoMick]

Its hard to appreciate what its like unless you are there. I was at some rural fires on the farm, but nothing like that. Stopping a firefront like that is amazing.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[cafe latte]

Its hard to appreciate what its like unless you are there. I was at some rural fires on the farm, but nothing like that. Stopping a firefront like that is amazing.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

I have been to more fires than I can count, many we could not stop, and non of them where crown fires ( in the canopy). I have melted my visor, and melted the wing mirrors on the truck, I have choked on smoke so think you cant see, but all this is nothing to a crowning bush fire which is another thing. One of the most scary moments I ever experienced there was a wind change, we crouched down turning away from the fire, the air was thick was smoke, orange with the glow of the fire, my back was hot, millions of embers were in the air, it felt like forever, you feel like a chicken on a spit, eventually I had to breath in the thick smoke. We came out coughing and very hot. All this scary as it was you know where the fire is, crown fires jump km ahead and cut you off.
There is an amazing operator here who does your job Andrew. On the last fire we asked for a dozer hoping to get it up into the rocky hills to cut the fire off. The dozer was elsewhere so he brought his grader. We told him no way he was going to get it up into the scrub, it would be like climbing a mountain. He just smiled and said follow me.. I followed in the Land Rover our small fire truck and the crazy bugger got the track all the way to the top. That was the day things got a bit scary, but due to the skill of this operator we stopped the fire.
Chris

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I've been in places where the fire has turned and the only way out is to go into the area which has just been burnt and find somewhere to shelter while the fire goes around you. Not fun.

[PAT303]

I'd buy any of you blokes a beer any day no question. Pat

[Eevo]

Chris in the Boddington fire we got abandonded by the FESA and DPAW fire fighters.Their figherfighters and appliances were withdrawn,they left the farmers,shire workers and contractors to it.1 FESA team refused to leave their post,a farmhouse in front of the fire.They saved the house,had to contaminate the farmhouse watertank with BFF wich Im told is a big no no.It was used to save themselves and the homestead.Well done I say.

Nobody was happy to see the 40+ prossesion of government fire units that flowed in to mop up after the danger was over.They were left with it:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

We had put firebreaks in a standing oat crop with the graders,then an illegal backburn in the oat crop was conducted by the farmer fire fighers.The result was exceptional,we stopped a running crown fire as it came out of the forrest.


keep up the good work mate.
from an operation POV, if firefighters are leaving, it's too risky for them.
we only have 1 rule at our firestation: Everyone comes back alive.

but i suspect the reason was political.

[Bushie]

I dont know how much bushfire experience the posters have.
.................................................. ...........................
Andrew

I joined a bushfire brigade as a volunteer in 1971, became captain of that brigade in 1977 and held that position until 1999 except for a 4 year period in the late 80s.
Concurrent with this I was a career firefighter between 1983 and 1999 working my way to station officer for the final 7 years.
In 1999 i took up employment with the NSWRFS initially in the role of community safety - managing hazard reductions, assessment of houses for compliance with AS2939, asset protection zones etc, in 2010 I moved into the operations officer role and hope to retire within the next year or so.

I've been fortunate to have worked on some major fires over the years both within the firefighter role and fire management, and have been unfortunate enough to see too many people (including some of my own brigade) die in the same fires.


Martyn

[cafe latte]

I am proud of my job with the fire brigade, both Rural and Urban. Today there was a road crash, and car fire my missus was first on the scene which she is a bit wobbly about it too.. She had been into town, she rang me before my pager went off as she knew I was in the station and the person was entrapped. .. When we arrived someone had pulled the driver out who was badly burned, then we assisted the ambos and put the fire out. This is the second road crash I attended in two weeks, not good...
Chris

[DiscoMick]

It's one of those sometimes terrible jobs most people avoid, so full credit to those who put their lives on the line.

[DiscoMick]

So, after two very hot days I came out of work today to find strong winds blowing a lot of smoke towards us. Not what you expect in the city where we often assume we are relatively safe from bushfires.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Bushie]

In the city you would be safe (or at least as safe as you can be), the smoke just doesn't know it :)

Martyn

[Eevo]

In the city you would be safe

think again.
2003 Canberra bushfires

[Bushie]

Canberra fires didn't get "The City" they affected the outer suburbs, fires around my way are Sydneys outer suburbs, hardly what would be considered "The City"

Martyn

[Eevo]

Canberra fires didn't get "The City" they affected the outer suburbs, fires around my way are Sydneys outer suburbs, hardly what would be considered "The City"

Martyn

the city would include outer metro.

or do you mean the CBD?

[slug_burner]

Fire safe and living at the edge of the bush are hard to achieve. Apart from the few on the suburban and bush interface city dwellers are safe from bush fires. I am sure that the advice for people living more than two blocks from that bush interface is to not panic as fire is unlikely to affect you.

[Eevo]

Fire safe and living at the edge of the bush are hard to achieve. Apart from the few on the suburban and bush interface city dwellers are safe from bush fires. I am sure that the advice for people living more than two blocks from that bush interface is to not panic as fire is unlikely to affect you.

these guys were more than 2 blocks in
embers can spread 5km in front of the fire front.

https://youtu.be/wW4ItqEkuWQ't=108

[Eevo]

Curtin is several suburbs in.


In Curtin, the ESA headquarters was in danger from the fires. With back-up power available only to the Communications Centre, many personnel were forced to work on tables outside as Army Reserve personnel hosed down the building

[Bushie]

the city would include outer metro.

or do you mean the CBD?

I suppose we should ask the OP what he meant by city


these guys were more than 2 blocks in
embers can spread 5km in front of the fire front.

https://youtu.be/wW4ItqEkuWQ't=108

If you listen he was at Warragamba and Eucambene in Duffy - that is right on the interface and in 2003 was on the edge of Stromlo state forest which was pine forest. The CSIRO assessment of the Canberra fires was that a significant proportion of the house losses was due to house to house ignition, as established house fires weren't fought, and fires in one house ignited the one next door etc. I saw the same locally in 1994 where fire penetrated 3 streets into the suburb.


Curtin is several suburbs in.

Curtin is really an interface suburb - or at least it was in 2003 with fire able to penetrate from the NW.

[Eevo]

I suppose we should ask the OP what he meant by city



If you listen he was at Warragamba and Eucambene in Duffy - that is right on the interface and in 2003 was on the edge of Stromlo state forest which was pine forest. The CSIRO assessment of the Canberra fires was that a significant proportion of the house losses was due to house to house ignition, as established house fires weren't fought, and fires in one house ignited the one next door etc. I saw the same locally in 1994 where fire penetrated 3 streets into the suburb.



Curtin is really an interface suburb - or at least it was in 2003 with fire able to penetrate from the NW.

yeah and he drives further in and the conditions are the same.

and yes, many were house to house ignition but that doesnt exclude ember started.

either way. its not going to a nice day for anyone. i really hate giving the impression that anyone is safe.

[gusthedog]

Ember attack distance is determined by weather info and fuel type, density, structure, and other things like relative humidity etc. Some vegetation types could potentially drop embers up to 20 km away from a fire front according to phoenix rapid fire modelling completed by Melbourne uni.

Also no one has yet commented on my earlier statement on page one regarding why no one in bush fire prone areas is installing approved fire bunkers on their properties. If you live in a risky area a $10-13k fire bunker is surely cheap insurance?

Pricey

[Eevo]

Ember attack distance is determined by weather info and fuel type, density, structure, and other things like relative humidity etc. Some vegetation types could potentially drop embers up to 20 km away from a fire front according to phoenix rapid fire modelling completed by Melbourne uni.

Also no one has yet commented on my earlier statement on page one regarding why no one in bush fire prone areas is installing approved fire bunkers on their properties. If you live in a risky area a $10-13k fire bunker is surely cheap insurance?

Pricey


record for ember attack is 32km from an actual event.
ive personally seen ~6km


i think someone died in the 2009 black saturday fires in an underground fire bunker.

[cafe latte]

record for ember attack is 32km from an actual event.
ive personally seen ~6km


i think someone died in the 2009 black saturday fires in an underground fire bunker.

In very bad fires a bunker will become an oven, also how much air does the bunker hold? There wont be any breathable air after a bad bush fire has gone through.
Chris

[gusthedog]

Firstly, lots of people died on Black Saturday in unapproved fire bunkers. But they were unnaproved and untested. No one has died in a proper bunker in Australia (ie one that has exceeded requirements and has met building approval). The approval process means a number of stringent tests need to be exceeded so they don't become an oven. The model I'm quoting has an hour of air supply for 6 adults and is buried underground. An hour is plenty of time for most fire fronts.

Wildfire Safety - Fire Bunkers (http://www.wildfiresafetybunkers.com.au/)

You can also get your own bunker tested and signed off appropriately. Requirements for building a bunker properly are available at EMV

https://www.emv.vic.gov.au/our-work/bushfire-shelter-options/

Also EMV warn again unnaproved bunker use

https://emv.vic.gov.au/latest-news/non-accredited-bushfire-shelters-warning/

I was unaware of fires spotting 32km. That's amazing . Around where I live modelling puts it at 20km or so max at code red/catestrophic conditions. The modelling has been shown to be around 85% accurate.

[Eevo]

I was unaware of fires spotting 32km.

it was on a CFS document i read somewhere.

attached, last page. was 30km not 32.

[DiscoMick]

I see next week in Queensland is predicted to be hotter than this week, with Birdsville hitting 46, so that is something to look forwards to. I shall be on a camp out the back of Gympie for four days, at a site which is through a forest along a narrow road, so hopefully we will be OK. If not, it might be a case of 'head for the river.'

[bob10]

these guys were more than 2 blocks in
embers can spread 5km in front of the fire front.

https://youtu.be/wW4ItqEkuWQ't=108

This makes it a bit clearer. Frightening stuff.

https://youtu.be/rqYEeivt8Eg

[bob10]

these guys were more than 2 blocks in
embers can spread 5km in front of the fire front.

https://youtu.be/wW4ItqEkuWQ't=108

This makes it a bit clearer. Frightening stuff.

https://youtu.be/rqYEeivt8Eg