The Whyalla steel works must be saved, at any cost

[bob10]

The last structural steel manufacturer in Australia, must be kept going.

Turnbull must grasp the big picture for steel workers | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/2016/02/26/turnbull-must-see-big-picture-future-steel-workers/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160227%20The%20New%20Daily%20(1)&utm_content=&spMailingID=24825200&spUserID=MTIxODgyNjMyMTEwS0&spJobID=744413863&spReportId=NzQ0NDEzODYzS0)

[frantic]

This is to express support and care for all those whose jobs are threatened.
Locally we've been through similar with the repetitive threats to BSL port Kembla and feel sad to see another region going through the same thing , along with all the other employees nationwide.
Steel making is a hard dangerous and complex industry whose employees have dedicated years to learn specific jobs and are now having nowhere to use many of those skills.
Please don't turn this political as it so easily can be.

[Eevo]

i dont feel the same way.
this is a company who has failed to adapt to a changing market.
why should we be propping them up?

[jon3950]

i dont feel the same way.
this is a company who has failed to adapt to a changing market.
why should we be propping them up?

Because soon there'll be nothing left. They say we need to transition to a service economy, but what will there be left to service?

Sure, they've made some unwise decisions but there's a lot more to it than that. There's a whole community at risk. Newcastle has been through it (and come out the other side), Wollongong faces it and now Whyalla.

Steelmaking is a difficult business to be in and being world class and competitive is not enough when China is dumping steel below cost on the world market.

We need to keep steelmaking in this country, it is a vital part of a healthy economy - its the basis of pretty much everything we build.

Cheers,
Jon

[frantic]

i dont feel the same way.
this is a company who has failed to adapt to a changing market.
why should we be propping them up?

No eevo the "market" hasn't changed, just over the last 8-10 years one country has quadrupled production and then dumped it globally.
When a steelworks invests for a 20+ year run on certain equipment , it's very hard to reshape without major losses.

[incisor]

i dont feel the same way.
this is a company who has failed to adapt to a changing market.
why should we be propping them up?

:D

your not really that stupid are you?

hopefully it is just another **** stirring post....

[incisor]

We need to keep steelmaking in this country, it is a vital part of a healthy economy - its the basis of pretty much everything we build.
on a par with the car industry but that was sacrificed to ideology as well.

let hope this one fairs better, tho i doubt it...

[digger]

i dont feel the same way.
this is a company who has failed to adapt to a changing market.
why should we be propping them up?

But $40mil on a footbridge is OK?, Building an office block (on parklands) with shops in it when multiple shops and offices already built in nthe CBD are empty is a good investment for government?

I find it interesting people want to throw money at Holdens (and I do believe we should support the workers) but they are in an area with multiple other businesses and factories or a short travel to same. There are options..

The whole town of Whyalla has built up around steel manufacture and treatment. It has also been involved in ship building. Should a town of 7,000 people be thrown away because we think the current managers are no good and make bad decisions? If so looks like maybe SA as a whole should be disreguarded in the same way for the same reasons!

The Govt and businesses themselves should feel obligated to use Australian steel and products. If you want a future for your kids then now is the time to act,

New managers etc in place at ARRIUM and if required One Steel but keep both businesses. After WW2 australian governments realised we relied overseas for almost everything, so started heavily pushing industry, steel works, car manufacturing etc started and all was good.

We need to get back to a spot where we can support and supply ourselves and our families etc. If this means the freetrade agreements need to be ripped up, so be it... we seem to lose on almost all of them anyway.

There are people on this forum who have or have just lost jobs as a result of this. I for one fully support the Govt dipping very deep (with conditions if they must) to keep them both active.

Stop spending govt money buying dream catchers and totem poles and start using it to keep the country alive.

my 2c

(and not a direct go at you Eevo!! just me blowing steam off)

[incisor]

I find it interesting people want to throw money at Holdens (and I do believe we should support the workers)

hooked by the ideology it seems...

it wasn't about the workers

it is all about the skills base

now that the car makers, the aircraft engineering and now it seems the heavy steel industry collapses there will be a total collapse of the skills base and the ability to keep a pool of engineering in AU

without it there will be little of consequence left to do here...

i see the wheel is turning in china now as well

industry shutting down and moving to india because labour is too dear in china

southern usa is starting to get the same way... wages are so low they are starting to talk about industrializing again

all pretty sad really IMHO but obviously smarter minds than mine are happy to see it all vanish up the IPA's rear orifice...

[AndyG]

Noone wants to see an industry gutted, but the stars are really lined up against Arrium, I dont have first hand numbers, but it would seem:

A Board who got it wrong with investments at top of cycle.
An inflexible workforce, esp the miners
S.A power going Green and Expensive
Dumping by the Chinese
A small market vs global competition/efficiency. Just look at TATA in England.
A global glut of iron & steel.
Trade Agreements that let efficient industries penetrate new markets & vice versa.

Now how do you address that !

And the heart goes out to those workers who put a life time in and end up stranded.
About time we enforced real standards on quality and fit for purpose and then we would have a chance to compete. Just look at the cladding scandle in the high rise game, :mad: should have been blocked at the wharf. But then we would not be allowed to import Jeeps either:twisted:

[Pickles2]

:D

your not really that stupid are you?

hopefully it is just another **** stirring post....
Not at all.
I agree with him....and I do feel sorry for the workers, ANY workers, ANYBODY that loses their jobs, and the implications that may have, PARTICULARLY, upon the FAMILIES involved.
So, if I'm "Stupid" then so be it.
The Govt, whoever is in power cannot support everybody that requires support. There was Ford, Holden, Sidchrome, now Arium, and then there are those who want more welfare, more wages, more health benefits,...MORE of everything, and that's all good, BUT, please tell me, WHERE the dollars are going to come from.
Of course, in terms of forum rules, this is all "IMHO",.....I'm not making it "Political",...don't care what Party, that's not the issue here, and not what I'm referring to.
Dave, You run things here mate, so pretty poor form to call someone "Stupid" just because their opinion is not the same as yours?
Pickles.

[strangy]

Not to worry. I just attended my sons graduation from Uni SA. Nearly 1000 graduates released into unemployment. Most of the poor kids leaving with feel good irrelevant pieces of parchment.
Only a handful with degree that may sustain let alone grow the nation.

Australia - soon to be the global equivalent of the 2 dollar shop.- just the dumping ground for low quality, unnecessary muck.

Really feel for those suffering. I don't think Australians realise just how much we are really losing when these industries finish.

[Tank]

:D

your not really that stupid are you?

hopefully it is just another **** stirring post....
Thank you for expressing my exact feelings about Eevo, If I had posted my thoughts I would be shown the door, not to worry, he's now on my "Ignore List", just added his mate "Pickles2", Regards Frank.

[Ean Austral]

I wonder how a company - any company - that cant survive in the lowest interest rate economy we have most likely ever had, can be pulled from the ashes with government support and survive in the same economic environment it already cant survive in.


If we made a law today that we would accept 0 % of steel from china , how long would it take before the stockpile was reduced enough for the local industry to not only start to sell products but also have the demand to produce more where they could start to see revenue flow enough to see a way forward. My guess would be a couple of years but its something I know little of.


The flow on effect would be the increase in costs to the building and construction sector , which would pass it on and then the new first home buyer has even less chance to enter the market.


I am all for supporting local , but it needs to be looked at very closely before the government cheque books get opened up for every struggling business.


I do know of many area's where I would rather see my tax dollars directed to - and a situation like this is 1 - compared to where its being wasted at present, but I would most likely get sent to CA if I started naming them.


Cheers Ean

[incisor]

Dave, You run things here mate, so pretty poor form to call someone "Stupid" just because their opinion is not the same as yours?
Pickles.

fair enough everybody reads things differently, but let me know when you trip over the smilie at the top of the post old mate...

feel free to address the serious post i made further down if you want a discussion... based on fact would be nice...

sadly i don't frequent the current affairs section because i always am told i cant behave like everybody else because i run the joint or i am biased because i dare differ with them so i run the place at a bias. i got over the confected outrage and hypocrisy ages ago.

it is what it is pickles...

[PAT303]

on a par with the car industry but that was sacrificed to ideology as well.

let hope this one fairs better, tho i doubt it...

I can see your point but I can't feel sorry for the Oz car industry.Land Rover was in a worse position than any Oz manufacturer and they dug themselves out of a bottomless pit and now are one of the most innovative car manufacturers there is and are getting better all the time.Land Rover didn't use excuses,they got on with it even though the pound is stronger than the dollar ever was,'olden and fud built rubbish no one want's,good riddance. Pat

[weeds]

I feel for the workers......but sadly the executives, governments, lazy Aussies, the demand for high wages and living standard is killing Australia........I reckon Australia is ****ed, I don't believe we will recover.

I believe NZ can make steel cheaper than AUS.

[Eevo]

But $40mil on a footbridge is OK?, Building an office block (on parklands) with shops in it when multiple shops and offices already built in nthe CBD are empty is a good investment for government?

I find it interesting people want to throw money at Holdens (and I do believe we should support the workers) but they are in an area with multiple other businesses and factories or a short travel to same. There are options..


i agree here with ya digger.
the footbridge was a waste of money
adelaide oval, although a great stadium, wasnt needed
and i dont believe we should be throwing money at holdens either.
i think 40-50% of shops in the CDB are empty.



throwing money at a failing business is stupid.
it's a waste of time and money.

[incisor]

I can see your point but I can't feel sorry for the Oz car industry.

i don't feel sorry for the car making firms either.

for me the discussion should never have been about them

i just don't see the sense in biting your nose off to spite your face when you don't have a plan b [wink11] and you dump thousands of the people that voted you in, onto the street.

[AndyG]

If Wheels unbiased reporting could save Holden, what could the Govt do :p

[frantic]

Pickles , your a numbers man so simply put the extra cost of buying local steel would be far far less than the loss of income tax from Whyalla Arrium employees alone.
Ean, one steel/ Arrium would be open still if all state govts bought Canada style ( nsw just bought several BILLION dollars of rail but not local).
Also my house , building at the moment is built with an Aussie steel frame and roof was same price as a timber competitors same size so false ean.
I'm sorry but if Arrium close where do you get rail and rope from of similar quality. We went down the accounts driven path of trying imported " same grade" rope years ago. That lasted a very short time as it was such bad quality that it threatened our lives and we insisted on going back to one steel rope.
You will also be in the situation of having only foreign suppliers so what you get is all you get at their price.
Yes they may have made a bad decision on assets purchases a few years ago but if they where based in India, South Africa, Canada , USA ,Brazil or Germany they would have their domestic market protections in place.

[Pickles2]

fair enough everybody reads things differently, but let me know when you trip over the smilie at the top of the post old mate...

feel free to address the serious post i made further down if you want a discussion... based on fact would be nice...

sadly i don't frequent the current affairs section because i always am told i cant behave like everybody else because i run the joint or i am biased because i dare differ with them so i run the place at a bias. i got over the confected outrage and hypocrisy ages ago.

it is what it is pickles...
Fair enough, thanks for the reply, I didn't like the wording, most unlike you, but importantly, YES, I DID miss the significance of the smilie.
I see "Tank" is putting me on his "ignore" list??!!...All good, I ain't gonna lose any sleep over that, & I'm sure He won't, but I'm always happy to read what other people write, even if I don't agree.
I never "ignored" anyone in C.A. either. Actually, I've learned a bit from people, on this Forum, & in life generally, from people with whom I've vigorously disagreed, and I hope I continue to do so. All part of life I reckon.
If the time comes in this Country when We can't say & write what we like, then that will really be something we won't be able to "ignore".
Regards, Pickles.

[tonyci]

A Vexed one this. On the one hand I agree with not supporting industries that are not sustainable. However the social cost to regional Australia and the families does need to be considered.
The issue of quality is also important, steel holds up half of our new city apartments and other buildings. I have read some where that the quality of steel from our northern neighbours is not as good as the domestic product. If this is correct then we should help our local producers.
The way we are heading our kids will be working (if they can get a job) for branch offices of multinationals.
As I opened with not easy.
Cheers
Tony

[Disco-tastic]

A story on steel quality:

I went to a seminar on steel and they were encouraging us to spec local steel and pushing that ther quality was much, MUCH better than a place that starts with c and ends in hina. They told of a job where a truss was to be made, but of course it was cheaper to get it made overseas. So when they got it they atuck in on a crane only to hear water sloshing around inside. On closer inspection they found that it had been tack welded together, with joints than siliconed to look like welds. A coat of gal rich paint and it looked the part. On pulling it apart they found that the steel gauge was too thin, and realised that it had been filled with water to bring it up to the correct weight!

Eevo are you still sure you dont care if the local steel mills close? :o

Oh and it obviously ended up being more expensive than supporting local at the start.

It can be sustainable industry, as has been mentioned, china is dumping so much steel here, and the government isnt doing (or can't do, i dont know the ins and outs of the trade agreements) anything to stop it.

And as has also been mentioned, if state projects supported local then local industry will stay. The income tax for paying the workers would come close to covering the difference in cost plus the money stays here to be spent elsewhere which equals more tax moneys.

Cheers

Dan

[Eevo]

A story on steel quality:

I went to a seminar on steel and they were encouraging us to spec local steel and pushing that ther quality was much, MUCH better than a place that starts with c and ends in hina. They told of a job where a truss was to be made, but of course it was cheaper to get it made overseas. So when they got it they atuck in on a crane only to hear water sloshing around inside. On closer inspection they found that it had been tack welded together, with joints than siliconed to look like welds. A coat of gal rich paint and it looked the part. On pulling it apart they found that the steel gauge was too thin, and realised that it had been filled with water to bring it up to the correct weight!

Eevo are you still sure you dont care if the local steel mills close? :o


propping up the company wont change the above.

[Ean Austral]

Pickles , your a numbers man so simply put the extra cost of buying local steel would be far far less than the loss of income tax from Whyalla Arrium employees alone.
Ean, one steel/ Arrium would be open still if all state govts bought Canada style ( nsw just bought several BILLION dollars of rail but not local).
Also my house , building at the moment is built with an Aussie steel frame and roof was same price as a timber competitors same size so false ean.
I'm sorry but if Arrium close where do you get rail and rope from of similar quality. We went down the accounts driven path of trying imported " same grade" rope years ago. That lasted a very short time as it was such bad quality that it threatened our lives and we insisted on going back to one steel rope.
You will also be in the situation of having only foreign suppliers so what you get is all you get at their price.
Yes they may have made a bad decision on assets purchases a few years ago but if they where based in India, South Africa, Canada , USA ,Brazil or Germany they would have their domestic market protections in place.


I agree that all government contracts should buy Australian first, but remember that they will be subjected to scrutiny for the $$ they spend and there will be a section of the community that will want to know why the government paid more for X brand when they could have bought Y brand for X$$ less.
Government contracts seem to be treated the same way as insurance company quotes, they seem to grow by more than double because its a government or insurance job. This is the big downfall when companies know its tax payers $$ they seem to believe its an endless pit.


Its a complex issue and I feel for the workers but a company that big gets itself $3 billion in debt and it cant trade out tells me that something is wrong. The down side of bringing receivers in is they get paid first, before anyone, so by the time it gets down to the poor old workers they will get bugger all of what they are owed.


Cheers Ean

[Disco-tastic]

It at least means the option of guaranteed high quality steel is available. Buying cheap from overseas can be a gamble, and it doesnt make much finacial sense for the government not to buy local as it keeps the money here.

Cheers

Dan

[Ean Austral]

It at least means the option of guaranteed high quality steel is available. Buying cheap from overseas can be a gamble, and it doesnt make much finacial sense for the government not to buy local as it keeps the money here.

Cheers

Dan


That's not always true, plenty of cases where stuff has been produced locally but the company funnels $$ offshore to avoid tax, or , the company is owned by a foreign company who funnels the money to its overseas offices.


I don't know the story behind this company , but this didn't just happen overnight , things have been going backwards for a while.


Cheers Ean

[bob10]

NSW rail link has more steel than the Harbour bridge, all imported from China. Another industry down the gurgler. Australia is indeed becoming a banana republic.

‘Whyalla Wipeout’ looms years after death of carbon tax | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/2016/04/07/whyalla-wipeout-after-carbon-tax/)

[incisor]

your wasting your breath bob

seems very few can see past their own wallet these days...

if the big picture ever falls off the wall it would knock them out :D

[Pickles2]

G'Day Frantic. Do I want Arium to stay operational?...Of course I do.
But it's been in the Press today, that this has been coming over a number of years, bad management & unprofitable practises, and now affected by a Worldwide drop in steel prices.
There has been an attempt to refinance recently, BUT WITHOUT EVEN TALKING TO THE BANKS!
I'm not really a "numbers man"as you say, but it's been the same with Ford, Holden, Aluminium plants, etc etc, we could go on & on, but the Govt just cannot support all of these industries. I mean everytime something like this happens, some say, "The Govt should support it",... but it simply can't, ....if our industries cannot support themselves, well they are not going to survive,...I think that applies to any company.
Just wait until you see the results from the big banks in a month or so?
I think You & I have discussed before, & I've mentioned, "Unsustainable"?....maybe that is coming home to roost, & it ain't just industry,..it's a lot of things. People want more & more, but no-one wants to pay more, & no-one wants to pay more tax.
Things are not looking good in this Country,...anywhere, IMHO..
Pickles.

[bob10]

It's madness. And it all starts from the top.



When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams ? this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness , and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!

― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

[Carzee]

Somebody mentioned low interest rate environment as a good thing for the economy and if the domestic steel companies can't make money in this low cost of money era.... but is cheap money a good thing? Yes and No. No if you have money on term deposit earning interest! Yes if you have an overdraft - if the bank borrowing rate is lower..

IMHO low cost money is a result of low demand for money. Currently the "unemployment rate" for international money is sky high. How many large cost projects do you see around the place? I see a lot being "shelved", not going ahead. A typical large company account would be telling the board of directors "We can get the loan cheap but the number of customers we are looking for to make a profit/to be viable, are not to be found, "until things pick up". Thats the problem.

Business confidence (and the optimism of the merchant banks who run the project feasibility study before handing over the loan) has taken hit after hit. The closing or downsizing of so many large domestic factories and mines (who are or were the clients of the so called service economy, eg., mining conveyer belt maintenance) has hit confidence for six. The freight and semi trailer service industry can also give you the hard facts on that aspect of the economy. (Cummins USA, have had three bad years in a row and are not in a good way as well).

As for Whyalla... I lived in Newcastle for 20 years of more and saw similar declines there. First the floating dock. Bradmill. Osram. Loco and Ship engineering. Various mines. The smelter. All the flow on effects.

Are we all following down the path of Detroit? The pessimist would say yes.

The optimist would look around for opportunity. Whats on the horizon? The trend is robotics. But thats all in asia and silicon valley. Or is it?

Aussies: Flirtey (http://flirtey.com)
Flirtey cleared for take-off in first FAA-approved drone delivery service (http://www.gizmag.com/flirtey-drones-deliver-medicine-in-us-first/38102/)

[Pickles2]

I don't think it's "madness" at all, it is REALITY.
There have been many companies "go down" in this country, over the last twenty years & longer,.. that is a fact, we all know that. Arium is another one, and it won't be the last, unfortunately.
And so, some say, the Govt should assist,...all of these companies?...over the last twenty years or so that this has been happening? How does that work, where do the dollars come from?
The simple fact is that these industries are UNCOMPETITIVE,..We cannot compete, because maybe, just maybe, we have priced ourselves out of the market? Maybe our COSTS are too high?....Does anyone think that this is possible.
We have the best democratic living "conditions" anywhere in our part of the World"....No doubt about that, but if these "conditions" equate to higher costs/uncompetitive industries relative to our neighbours/competitors, what is the answer?.....I don't know, but I do know that I believe that this country is in a lot of trouble, and I also know, that many many Aussies, DON'T WANT TO KNOW,..."She'll Be Right Mate". Well I'm here to say, "She Won't Be" IMHO.
Pickles.

[frantic]

G'Day Frantic. Do I want Arium to stay operational?...Of course I do.
But it's been in the Press today, that this has been coming over a number of years, bad management & unprofitable practises, and now affected by a Worldwide drop in steel prices.
There has been an attempt to refinance recently, BUT WITHOUT EVEN TALKING TO THE BANKS!
I'm not really a "numbers man"as you say, but it's been the same with Ford, Holden, Aluminium plants, etc etc, we could go on & on, but the Govt just cannot support all of these industries. I mean everytime something like this happens, some say, "The Govt should support it",... but it simply can't, ....if our industries cannot support themselves, well they are not going to survive,...I think that applies to any company.
Just wait until you see the results from the big banks in a month or so?
I think You & I have discussed before, & I've mentioned, "Unsustainable"?....maybe that is coming home to roost, & it ain't just industry,..it's a lot of things. People want more & more, but no-one wants to pay more, & no-one wants to pay more tax.
Things are not looking good in this Country,...anywhere, IMHO..
Pickles.

See this is the thing pickles , our car industry was and still is sustainable, just not allowed to be competitive and nowhere near "a level playing field ". A vast majority of any euro model is sold in far smaller numbers in their home market than any of our remaining 3 manufacturers cars. They only achieve the required volume via exports. Ditto all the Utes we buy, but here's the other MAJOR DIFFERENCE, the EU and USA give through direct and indirect help about 2x the amount your complaining about. Thailand has a 7year ZERO TAX deal to all manufacturers resulting in massive expansion and skilled employment and training. But we've lost that industry.
One steel have their own ore mine, basically at their door and between them and Bsl produce about enough to cover the local market. Because of imports both are forced to loss making exports.

[incisor]

what costs have increased at a much higher rate than others over the last few years.. ?




I don't think it's "madness" at all, it is REALITY.
There have been many companies "go down" in this country, over the last twenty years & longer,.. that is a fact, we all know that. Arium is another one, and it won't be the last, unfortunately.
And so, some say, the Govt should assist,...all of these companies?...over the last twenty years or so that this has been happening? How does that work, where do the dollars come from?
The simple fact is that these industries are UNCOMPETITIVE,..We cannot compete, because maybe, just maybe, we have priced ourselves out of the market? Maybe our COSTS are too high?....Does anyone think that this is possible.
We have the best democratic living "conditions" anywhere in our part of the World"....No doubt about that, but if these "conditions" equate to higher costs/uncompetitive industries relative to our neighbours/competitors, what is the answer?.....I don't know, but I do know that I believe that this country is in a lot of trouble, and I also know, that many many Aussies, DON'T WANT TO KNOW,..."She'll Be Right Mate". Well I'm here to say, "She Won't Be" IMHO.
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

See this is the thing pickles , our car industry was and still is sustainable, just not allowed to be competitive and nowhere near "a level playing field ". A vast majority of any euro model is sold in far smaller numbers in their home market than any of our remaining 3 manufacturers cars. They only achieve the required volume via exports. Ditto all the Utes we buy, but here's the other MAJOR DIFFERENCE, the EU and USA give through direct and indirect help about 2x the amount your complaining about. Thailand has a 7year ZERO TAX deal to all manufacturers resulting in massive expansion and skilled employment and training. But we've lost that industry.
One steel have their own ore mine, basically at their door and between them and Bsl produce about enough to cover the local market. Because of imports both are forced to loss making exports.


Why if that is the case was the car industry continually wanting government subsides if it was sustainable ? I am not being argumentive, but I have never read anything that would suggest anything like that statement. It seemed to me that when the government said no more they all said they are unsustainable and left.


Cheers Ean

[Pickles2]

"EU & USA",...MASSIVELY bigger economies & population than us, (Economies Of Scale?). We can't "subsidise" anything, because we ain't got the dollars....Our economy simply isn't big enough.....I say our economy is "stretched to the limit"......I don't like to say it, but I reckon it is, in fact, thinking about it, actually it's worse than that, it's overstretched.
Just have a look at the budget, ..Aussie is spending more than it earns, every day. The dollars just ain't there, they just aren't.
Frantic, you & I have spoken before, we've even agreed on a couple of things. Pumping money in is not the answer,...if we can't produce a product that is competitive to the world market relative to other producers, pumping money in ain't gonna work, ya're just throwing good money after bad.
What is the answer now, IN REALITY?....I don't know.
Regards, Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

"EU & USA",...MASSIVELY bigger economies & population than us, (Economies Of Scale?). We can't "subsidise" anything, because we ain't got the dollars....Our economy simply isn't big enough.....I say our economy is "stretched to the limit"......I don't like to say it, but I reckon it is, in fact, thinking about it, actually it's worse than that, it's overstretched.
Just have a look at the budget, ..Aussie is spending more than it earns, every day. The dollars just ain't there, they just aren't.
Frantic, you & I have spoken before, we've even agreed on a couple of things. What is the answer now, IN REALITY?....I don't know.
Regards, Pickles.


Sadly we live it a country that cant accept the user pays system. Sooner or later things are going to have to give 1 way or the other.


Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

Sadly we live it a country that cant accept the user pays system. Sooner or later things are going to have to give 1 way or the other.


Cheers Ean

can you expand on that for me please?

[Ean Austral]

can you expand on that for me please?


We live in a country that wants free health /medical is an example, it costs a fortune for the system we have but when the question of having to pay for the service, even $5 , you would have thought world was going to end, but the majority of people complaining the loudest , are the same people who put the most strain on that system and contribute the least.


Look at the debarcle of the HECS system, several billion of tax $$ and rising , that will never be seen again because nothing has to be paid until you earn $50k a year, there are people who will spend their life at uni and never cost them a cent. When its suggested that it be lowered to $30k its howled down as a money grab.


We have a population of what 23 million and we are not getting enough tax from that population to fund the life style we want , but when its suggested that people will have to pay more it gets that much bad media attention the government backs down, and we end up further in debt. As a country we are living beyond our means but no one wants to admit that there is a problem.


Just my point of view of course.


Cheers Ean

[MR LR]

I can see your point but I can't feel sorry for the Oz car industry.Land Rover was in a worse position than any Oz manufacturer and they dug themselves out of a bottomless pit and now are one of the most innovative car manufacturers there is and are getting better all the time.Land Rover didn't use excuses,they got on with it even though the pound is stronger than the dollar ever was,'olden and fud built rubbish no one want's,good riddance. Pat
I agree with the sentiment, the Australian car industry did kill itself, just like any relationship where no effort is put in... but if you look at how many owners LR has had, you'd see that it's been dug out many times. LRA too, along with quite a few dealerships when the union loving Labor idiots introduced the LCT in the 90's... And that did 4/5th's of SFA to prop up local industry.

Had it not been for significant investment, Land Rover wouldn't have had the means to continue, just like the rest of BL. They did use the investment wisely though, unlike the bogans building Falcons and Commodores... As far as I'm concerned the Holden died at the start of Commodore. Ford is still well alive, just not Aussie built ones...

[frantic]

Why if that is the case was the car industry continually wanting government subsides if it was sustainable ? I am not being argumentive, but I have never read anything that would suggest anything like that statement. It seemed to me that when the government said no more they all said they are unsustainable and left.


Cheers Ean

Re read the rest of the paragraph and google it. Thailand realised that building over a million cars , over half for export would give directly several hundred thousand jobs ( over a million in flow on for their new incomes)and a massive boost to govt coffers from income taxes that's why they offers zero tax for 7 years(google it) Again Google USA vehicle production support compared to Australia, it's 2:1. A majority of EU export sales , you know the ones that make numbers sustainable for everything from a Passat to a Citroen c5 are no longer to USA but China. Now whose closer? Yet we've never seriously exported there? Even when building LHD pontiacs,Wonder why?

[Pickles2]

We live in a country that wants free health /medical is an example, it costs a fortune for the system we have but when the question of having to pay for the service, even $5 , you would have thought world was going to end, but the majority of people complaining the loudest , are the same people who put the most strain on that system and contribute the least.


Look at the debarcle of the HECS system, several billion of tax $$ and rising , that will never be seen again because nothing has to be paid until you earn $50k a year, there are people who will spend their life at uni and never cost them a cent. When its suggested that it be lowered to $30k its howled down as a money grab.


We have a population of what 23 million and we are not getting enough tax from that population to fund the life style we want , but when its suggested that people will have to pay more it gets that much bad media attention the government backs down, and we end up further in debt. As a country we are living beyond our means but no one wants to admit that there is a problem.


Just my point of view of course.


Cheers Ean
Ean, THANK YOU. Most REALISTICALLY put. I have nothing to add.
It's ridiculous, everybody wants "help" or "more",...the Vic Govt wants "more" for road funding, the Health system wants "more", the Education system is crying out for "More"????? Is this not the truth, is this not what is being requested,...Jeez, it's in the press every day?...Where are the dollars.
Simply, & even if no-one's listening (as I've said before), You speak the truth.
Pickles.

[MR LR]

what costs have increased at a much higher rate than others over the last few years.. ?
Wages :p

[weeds]

We live in a country that wants free health /medical is an example, it costs a fortune for the system we have but when the question of having to pay for the service, even $5 , you would have thought world was going to end, but the majority of people complaining the loudest , are the same people who put the most strain on that system and contribute the least.


Look at the debarcle of the HECS system, several billion of tax $$ and rising , that will never be seen again because nothing has to be paid until you earn $50k a year, there are people who will spend their life at uni and never cost them a cent. When its suggested that it be lowered to $30k its howled down as a money grab.


We have a population of what 23 million and we are not getting enough tax from that population to fund the life style we want , but when its suggested that people will have to pay more it gets that much bad media attention the government backs down, and we end up further in debt. As a country we are living beyond our means but no one wants to admit that there is a problem.


Just my point of view of course.


Cheers Ean



Spot on.....I recon everybody (that has a job maybe) should pay something to see a doctor, like you said even if it's $5

[frantic]

Ean, THANK YOU. Most REALISTICALLY put. I have nothing to add.
It's ridiculous, everybody wants "help" or "more",...the Vic Govt wants "more" for road funding, the Health system wants "more", the Education system is crying out for "More"????? Is this not the truth, is this not what is being requested,...Jeez, it's in the press every day?...Where are the dollars.
Simply, & even if no-one's listening (as I've said before), You speak the truth.
Pickles.

So to get back on topic, instead of 7000 jobs nationwide and 3000 of those in Whyalla,a town of 22,000. Paying over $10-30,000 plus in tax each and earning income being spent in the local economy . You would rather they each get paid by your taxes $15,000 plus in welfare and make half the town unemployed?
That's about $60 million LOST in income tax and north of $50 million paid in welfare in one town , a $110million loss to the govt PER YEAR. Nationally that figure for one steel is above $250million a year loss to us the taxpayer!
But you still insist a local content rule would be stupid?:angel:
P.s those are income tax figures alone , now if you throw in the loss of taxes from the GST alone on their products there's well over another $500million income lost to us. Then when they start to make a profit, further taxes.

[Pickles2]

Re read the rest of the paragraph and google it. Thailand realised that building over a million cars , over half for export would give directly several hundred thousand jobs ( over a million in flow on for their new incomes)and a massive boost to govt coffers from income taxes that's why they offers zero tax for 7 years(google it) Again Google USA vehicle production support compared to Australia, it's 2:1. A majority of EU export sales , you know the ones that make numbers sustainable for everything from a Passat to a Citroen c5 are no longer to USA but China. Now whose closer? Yet we've never seriously exported there? Even when building LHD pontiacs,Wonder why?
Aaahh, "LHD Pontiacs"?.....Now you're in my part of the woods.
Ya know one of the MAJOR reasons why that didn't work?.......It was because of the Unions, the US Unions, that "almost" amongst many other of their "conditions" caused the death of GM.
And the "reason" I'm speaking of, is that the "SS" Chev in the U.S. could've been a massively popular car, & why wouldn't it be (and why wouldn't it be,..RWD V8, NO-ONE had a bad word to say about it), but GM couldn't promote it, because the US Unions wouldn't let them, because they considered it a threat to "their" jobs, because the car was not being built by them.....FACT.
I'm pretty close to Holden, a V8 Commodore man through & through,..it's a magic car, would've been a sensational car in the US,.......BUT,...well Frantic, I'll leave the answer to you?
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

Re read the rest of the paragraph and google it. Thailand realised that building over a million cars , over half for export would give directly several hundred thousand jobs ( over a million in flow on for their new incomes)and a massive boost to govt coffers from income taxes that's why they offers zero tax for 7 years(google it) Again Google USA vehicle production support compared to Australia, it's 2:1. A majority of EU export sales , you know the ones that make numbers sustainable for everything from a Passat to a Citroen c5 are no longer to USA but China. Now whose closer? Yet we've never seriously exported there? Even when building LHD pontiacs,Wonder why?


I will read it as you suggest, but when I read Thailand I always think are we comparing apples with apples. I wonder what the cost per car to build the same amount of cars in Australia would be with our labour costs, union rules etc etc would be.


I know nothing of the car industry , but let me give you some example of something I do know about.
I can and we do send 40 foot containers of prawns to Indonesia and Thailand to get processed into prawn meat and cutlets, BUT, we also do the same job in our Brisbane factory. So the cost including freight by sea to these countries and returned to east coast Australia is - Indonesia approx. $2 per kilo , Thailand $2.50 per kilo. Now to do the same job in our factory here is 5 times that and only if we work normal hours , its more if we do weekend or public holidays , and to my knowledge we are the only company left that still does this type of processing in Australia.


So whats my point , its that there may be several reasons why most car companies are now using these countries , because like us ( Australia ) they have most likely priced themselves out of business with high labour costs.


Just a thought.


Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

We live in a country that wants free health /medical is an example, it costs a fortune for the system we have but when the question of having to pay for the service, even $5 , you would have thought world was going to end, but the majority of people complaining the loudest , are the same people who put the most strain on that system and contribute the least.


Look at the debarcle of the HECS system, several billion of tax $$ and rising , that will never be seen again because nothing has to be paid until you earn $50k a year, there are people who will spend their life at uni and never cost them a cent. When its suggested that it be lowered to $30k its howled down as a money grab.


We have a population of what 23 million and we are not getting enough tax from that population to fund the life style we want , but when its suggested that people will have to pay more it gets that much bad media attention the government backs down, and we end up further in debt. As a country we are living beyond our means but no one wants to admit that there is a problem.


Just my point of view of course.


Cheers Ean

holy crap!
i dont think ive ever seen the nail being hit on the head as hard as you just did.
Ean for PM.

[Eevo]

Spot on.....I recon everybody (that has a job maybe) should pay something to see a doctor, like you said even if it's $5

the problem is, i pay a fair bit of tax. and the medicare surcharge/private health
i except something for my taxes. so having to pay tax plus on the day, really ****es me off.

[Eevo]

So to get back on topic, instead of 7000 jobs nationwide and 3000 of those in Whyalla,a town of 22,000. Paying over $10-30,000 plus in tax each and earning income being spent in the local economy . You would rather they each get paid by your taxes $15,000 plus in welfare and make half the town unemployed?
That's about $60 million LOST in income tax and north of $50 million paid in welfare in one town , a $110million loss to the govt PER YEAR. Nationally that figure for one steel is above $250million a year loss to us the taxpayer!
But you still insist a local content rule would be stupid?:angel:
P.s those are income tax figures alone , now if you throw in the loss of taxes from the GST alone on their products there's well over another $500million income lost to us. Then when they start to make a profit, further taxes.

and over 10 years, how much will it take to prop up the business?

[PAT303]

We live in a country that wants free health /medical is an example, it costs a fortune for the system we have but when the question of having to pay for the service, even $5 , you would have thought world was going to end, but the majority of people complaining the loudest , are the same people who put the most strain on that system and contribute the least.


Look at the debarcle of the HECS system, several billion of tax $$ and rising , that will never be seen again because nothing has to be paid until you earn $50k a year, there are people who will spend their life at uni and never cost them a cent. When its suggested that it be lowered to $30k its howled down as a money grab.


We have a population of what 23 million and we are not getting enough tax from that population to fund the life style we want , but when its suggested that people will have to pay more it gets that much bad media attention the government backs down, and we end up further in debt. As a country we are living beyond our means but no one wants to admit that there is a problem.


Just my point of view of course.


Cheers Ean

Ean,the HEC's debt is the size it is because people do pointless degree's that cost the same amount as worthwhile ones.The people who do worthwhile degree's get jobs and earn money,the others get low income jobs or the dole. Pat

[Eevo]

Ean,the HEC's debt is the size it is because people do pointless degree's that cost the same amount as worthwhile ones.The people who do worthwhile degree's get jobs and earn money,the others get low income jobs or the dole. Pat

but all those low paying jobs require that silly piece of paper.

[Ean Austral]

Ean,the HEC's debt is the size it is because people do pointless degree's that cost the same amount as worthwhile ones.The people who do worthwhile degree's get jobs and earn money,the others get low income jobs or the dole. Pat


Gday Pat 303,


Is that an acceptable excuse ?


Just maybe that if people had to pay back the money regardless of what their income is it may stop that from happening. Just possibly people may question whether or not they need to do a pointless degree when they know they have to put their hand in their pocket straight away.


My wife and me put our eldest daughter thru her nursing degree and 3 years of her living at home and she was told in no uncertain terms that the bank of mum and dad wasn't endless , to her credit she gradated and has pursued it further which is pleasing.


Cheers Ean

[Disco-tastic]

Ean,the HEC's debt is the size it is because people do pointless degree's that cost the same amount as worthwhile ones.The people who do worthwhile degree's get jobs and earn money,the others get low income jobs or the dole. Pat

This isn't helped by the fact that unis hey paid per student so they encourage people to start a degree to get more money. Entry isn't regulated like it used to be so they can have as many students as they have seats, more if you include by correspondence. It used to be regulated so that for jobs with few positions available the required HSC score was really high to limit attendees, while the opposite was true for degrees with plenty of jobs.

Cheers

Dan

[ramblingboy42]

it's very simple solution but it takes guts.

STOP foreign import of steel.

No new projects may be authorised unless using Australian steel. ...all Australian railway lines MUST be Australian steel.

it isn't a hard thing to do, it just takes GUTS. if you are spineless you will be walked over.

[Sitec]

I don't really know enough about it to comment, but what I do see is that Australia is sadly going the same way the UK did 15+ years ago..

As long as people want cheeper products, goods, food, cars etc there will always be the import market. It seems to cost a huge amount to manufacture anything here, and the government is largely to blame for the way the country is going. It is all too easy to buy stuff from overseas as it it too readily available. If local business's were favoured, and imported goods taxed heavily it would do a lot to help the situation. At work I have the option of Australian made equipment or imported equipment, and more often than not I source, purchase and sell the imports because... It arrives on time, has a good finish, is competitively priced, is reliable and works. We used to deal with several Australian firms, but things would arrive with bits missing, scratched, poorly finished, and often it wouldn't arrive at all... As a seller, it makes it nearly impossible to stay loyal which really frustrates me. I have recently sourced a few new local suppliers and am using them on the proviso that the quality is good, the stuff arrives on time and the price is competitive. So far so good. Trouble is you have to find it!!

Re the cars, Holden in particular.. IMO they didn't move with the times.. Large dated thirsty cars that devalue very quickly. I might be wrong, but if Holden had produced a potent fuel efficient diesel with a few euro touches they'd have had a winner.

The govt and the people have to really start looking after their own. So long as we all continue to buy the cheep crap that's available from abroad, and so long as the govt allow it to happen things won't change.

[LandyAndy]

Re The Hecs debt.
Lindsay just did another xmas uni break working for a mining company.He gets paid very good money,pays plenty of tax.
He is still at uni,the break is his main money earner for the year.I said at least you will get all that tax back,no he says,the 3 month job puts him over the threshold and he gets Hecs debts taken out of his return despite not having completed his studies.
He also gets lower student payments from centrelink because I put too much into my super every fortnite.He doesnt live at home,hasnt done for 3 years.
Andrew

[incisor]

Wages :p

Wrong

Go read some real facts...

[Ean Austral]

what costs have increased at a much higher rate than others over the last few years.. ?




Anything that requires fridge gas has gone thru the roof , proberly not related to steel industry , but 3 years ago we paid $1200 for a 65kg bottle of R22 gas , I picked up 2 yesterday at a cost $12450 plus government levies.


Cheers Ean

[Bytemrk]

Andy,

I thought you didn't start paying hecs until you earned around $54k p.a

either that is some fair vacation job, or I've got my facts crooked....

Loan Repayment - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-repayment/pages/loan-repayment#WhenDoIHaveToRepayMyHELPDebt)

[incisor]

Extraordinary the way that one went....

[bob10]

I don't think it's "madness" at all, it is REALITY.
There have been many companies "go down" in this country, over the last twenty years & longer,.. that is a fact, we all know that. Arium is another one, and it won't be the last, unfortunately.
And so, some say, the Govt should assist,...all of these companies?...over the last twenty years or so that this has been happening? How does that work, where do the dollars come from?
The simple fact is that these industries are UNCOMPETITIVE,..We cannot compete, because maybe, just maybe, we have priced ourselves out of the market? Maybe our COSTS are too high?....Does anyone think that this is possible.
We have the best democratic living "conditions" anywhere in our part of the World"....No doubt about that, but if these "conditions" equate to higher costs/uncompetitive industries relative to our neighbours/competitors, what is the answer?.....I don't know, but I do know that I believe that this country is in a lot of trouble, and I also know, that many many Aussies, DON'T WANT TO KNOW,..."She'll Be Right Mate". Well I'm here to say, "She Won't Be" IMHO.
Pickles.

No one I know has a "she'll be right"attitude. Almost all have an understanding of the problem. So, why was $ 385 million found to keep Port Pirie alive, and nothing for the Steelworks.? Surely the Steelworks are a strategic industry? Spending $ 385 million to keep a lead smelter going, and trashing a strategic industry, like a steelworks, considering there is only one other left in Australia, is madness. The cost in Welfare payments alone to Whyalla is reason enough to find a way. That is the reality. The Federal Govt lacked the courage to ensure a % of steel used in Australian infrastructure was Australian made. That is another reality.

Whyalla: Australia's largest ghost town or a steelworks bail-out? (http://www.smh.com.au/business/whyalla-australias-largest-ghost-town-or-a-steelworks-bailout-20160407-go0en4.html)

[bob10]

Anything that requires fridge gas has gone thru the roof , proberly not related to steel industry , but 3 years ago we paid $1200 for a 65kg bottle of R22 gas , I picked up 2 yesterday at a cost $12450 plus government levies.


Cheers Ean

It's going to get worse.

Air Conditioning Costs and the banning of R22 (http://www.out-law.com/en/sectors/core-industries--markets/real-estate/air-conditioning-costs-and-the-banning-of-r22/)

[EastFreo]

Wrong

Go read some real facts...

I have to ask - where are these real facts?

As much as anyone I would prefer our industry to stay here and thrive. But I think Mr LR is correct. Wages here have risen much higher than our competitors.

I am happy to be corrected.

[bob10]

Anything that requires fridge gas has gone thru the roof , proberly not related to steel industry , but 3 years ago we paid $1200 for a 65kg bottle of R22 gas , I picked up 2 yesterday at a cost $12450 plus government levies.


Cheers Ean

This is from the UK Government web site. Admittedly, they are E.U. regulations. Have to admit, I'm not sure where we stand in Aus., regarding regulations for the use of CFC's.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20070603164510/http://www.dti.gov.uk/files/file29101.pdf

[bob10]

I have to ask - where are these real facts?

As much as anyone I would prefer our industry to stay here and thrive. But I think Mr LR is correct. Wages here have risen much higher than our competitors.

I am happy to be corrected.

Forget wages, that's a furphy. The problem can be summed up in two words, Debt, and China. China is producing more steel than they need, subsidised by their government. They are flooding World Markets with cheap steel, sending many overseas mills to the wall, including in the UK. Conspiracy theorists could say Chinas' plan is to control World steel supply, I'm not sure about that. The solution is to modernise your steel plant, to bring it up to Worlds best practice. From what I can gather, this means more automation , taking people out of the loop. Extremely expensive, but if you want a steel industry, making quality steel, rather than cheap Chinese low grade stuff, you have to make the hard decisions. Can't see that happening in Aus. any time soon.

Why Arrium is in trouble;

Awash with an oversupply of Chinese steel and no end in sight | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/markets/commodities/metals/awash-with-an-oversupply-of-chinese-steel-and-no-end-in-sight-20160407-go0hfk)

[bob10]

And, it is not only steel....

China ramps up aluminum output as 20pc rally allows restarts | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/markets/commodities/metals/china-ramps-up-aluminum-output-as-20pc-rally-allows-restarts-20160407-go11p3)

[Pickles2]

Lets be honest with each other people, even if we don't agree with each other.
Lets not just talk about steel, because the issue isn't confined to steel, Arium is just the latest in a long line, going back many years, before Mitsubihi folded etc, and people said the same then, and before that there was Sidchrome,..how long ago was that,....still going of course, still making a good product, but not in Aus?....like I said, arium is no different to any of the companies that have folded or gone overseas,..why?....Because they are uncompetitive in Australia. In many cases, there was nothing wrong with the product, ie Sidchrome, but they couldn't make it in australia & be competitive.
Its the same with all of 'em, the cost of making stuff here is simply too much.
Aluminium, oil refineries, etc etc, all gone,....why is it,..because our product is too dear,..there is cheaper stuff about, just as good. I don't like it. Look at the clothes you wear, Don't know about you guys, but most of mine comes from China or Indonesia,...why is that?..We used to have a good textile industry here, where did that go, & why?
Like I said it's happened, & it'll keep happening. We have simply priced ourselves out of the market, and people that's why it's happened, buyers did not want to pay the cost of Aussie made goods,....if they had've, those goods/factories would still be here.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Lets be honest with each other people, even if we don't agree with each other.
Lets not just talk about steel, because the issue isn't confined to steel, Arium is just the latest in a long line, going back many years, before Mitsubihi folded etc, and people said the same then, and before that there was Sidchrome,..how long ago was that,....still going of course, still making a good product, but not in Aus?....like I said, arium is no different to any of the companies that have folded or gone overseas,..why?....Because they are uncompetitive in Australia. In many cases, there was nothing wrong with the product, ie Sidchrome, but they couldn't make it in australia & be competitive.
Its the same with all of 'em, the cost of making stuff here is simply too much.
Aluminium, oil refineries, etc etc, all gone,....why is it,..because our product is too dear,..there is cheaper stuff about, just as good. I don't like it. Look at the clothes you wear, Don't know about you guys, but most of mine comes from China or Indonesia,...why is that?..We used to have a good textile industry here, where did that go, & why?
Like I said it's happened, & it'll keep happening. We have simply priced ourselves out of the market, and people that's why it's happened, buyers did not want to pay the cost of Aussie made goods,....if they had've, those goods/factories would still be here.
Pickles.

You would do well to actually read the articles on the subject. The situation is not as simple and clear cut as you put. It is a simplistic view of a complicated problem, but I can see where it comes from, it's an understandable view. Throwing our hands in the air, and crying " the sky is falling" , is not the way to move forward. More than ever, Australia needs people with vision, and confidence, supported by Government , to focus on new industries, such as renewable energy, and to do what is necessary to modernise existing industry to allow them to be more competitive. We need less people like big Clive, and more ethical and honest entrepreneurs , whose motivation is not greed. It's funny, I've read where high workers wages is the problem, but not once has a manager taken a major pay cut. And, while we see CEO's take home millions of dollars [ Quantas, Aus. Post, Westpac,for example, ] to expect workers to work for the wages of Third World countries is laughable. There is a solution, but it means we all have to work together, with a common purpose. Good luck with that. Cheers.

[frantic]

and over 10 years, how much will it take to prop up the business?

Let's see, their looking for about $60 million in savings inside the plant a year, so a $600 million cost to " prop up " a business:confused: that put $5000million (5billion ) in your pocket directly over the same time .
I'm ignoring the welfare bill of over $1 billion if you shut the company, are you?

Ean, your talking in cost per unit for labour, so in your case it's similar to what happened to bonds and yakka who moved all production offshore as 30-50% labour cost per unit meant they could charge the same price but make higher profits. ;)
Cost per unit for cars and ,back on topic , STEEL, are below 10% depending upon the level of processing. Bsl report was below 5% per ton to slab stage.
This means if a foreign govt gives its exports a 5-10% bonus or incentive then both the labour and transport is free.

We are going to pay dearly in the future for importing poor quality. Across the harbour a new grain terminal by qube imported steel as "cheaper" now about 3 months after finish they have to spend 3 times the difference in repairs as all the bolts and numerous other parts are not to correct spec. Do a google on win stadium awning, imported structure that was new but snapped it's mounts in a mild breeze and had to be repaired. I talk to local miners whose companies have bought chutes etc where the wear plates are supposed to be say 30mm thick for wear and repair, the cheap import is actually 10+ layers of cheap strip/ thin plate welded together which means it's buggered much quicker and harder or not worthwhile to repair. I could name more structures but :censored: it

[incisor]

If someone had $200m and they put that in something that returned $1200m in a couple of years, what would it be called?

[Ean Austral]

Let's see, their looking for about $60 million in savings inside the plant a year, so a $600 million cost to " prop up " a business:confused: that put $5000million (5billion ) in your pocket directly over the same time .
I'm ignoring the welfare bill of over $1 billion if you shut the company, are you?

Ean, your talking in cost per unit for labour, so in your case it's similar to what happened to bonds and yakka who moved all production offshore as 30-50% labour cost per unit meant they could charge the same price but make higher profits. ;)
Cost per unit for cars and ,back on topic , STEEL, are below 10% depending upon the level of processing. Bsl report was below 5% per ton to slab stage.
This means if a foreign govt gives its exports a 5-10% bonus or incentive then both the labour and transport is free.

We are going to pay dearly in the future for importing poor quality. Across the harbour a new grain terminal by qube imported steel as "cheaper" now about 3 months after finish they have to spend 3 times the difference in repairs as all the bolts and numerous other parts are not to correct spec. Do a google on win stadium awning, imported structure that was new but snapped it's mounts in a mild breeze and had to be repaired. I talk to local miners whose companies have bought chutes etc where the wear plates are supposed to be say 30mm thick for wear and repair, the cheap import is actually 10+ layers of cheap strip/ thin plate welded together which means it's buggered much quicker and harder or not worthwhile to repair. I could name more structures but :censored: it

I have said all along that this issue needs government support , I just don't believe you have an open cheque book approach.
I was responding to your comment about cars being built in Thailand compared to else where, in Thailand the labour cost of assembly is maybe as low as 5% in countries like Australia it could be 10% so if you are assbling 1 million cars it's a huge expense even tho it's only 5%.

If the figures are as you quote on steel then why is it that with no transport costs due to them having their own mines can't we compete against imports? It seems looking from an outsider that the cost to run the day to day operation is to high. That is where my point on labour costs and workers demands Vs low productivity come in.
The fact that they have voluntarily called in receivers tells me the board of that company feel they are not able enough to trade out of trouble under the way they know how to do business. They need someone that looks at things differently to see if there are answers.

Just my view of course

Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

Let's see, their looking for about $60 million in savings inside the plant a year, so a $600 million cost to " prop up " a business:confused: that put $5000million (5billion ) in your pocket directly over the same time .
I'm ignoring the welfare bill of over $1 billion if you shut the company, are you?

Ean, your talking in cost per unit for labour, so in your case it's similar to what happened to bonds and yakka who moved all production offshore as 30-50% labour cost per unit meant they could charge the same price but make higher profits. ;)
Cost per unit for cars and ,back on topic , STEEL, are below 10% depending upon the level of processing. Bsl report was below 5% per ton to slab stage.
This means if a foreign govt gives its exports a 5-10% bonus or incentive then both the labour and transport is free.

We are going to pay dearly in the future for importing poor quality. Across the harbour a new grain terminal by qube imported steel as "cheaper" now about 3 months after finish they have to spend 3 times the difference in repairs as all the bolts and numerous other parts are not to correct spec. Do a google on win stadium awning, imported structure that was new but snapped it's mounts in a mild breeze and had to be repaired. I talk to local miners whose companies have bought chutes etc where the wear plates are supposed to be say 30mm thick for wear and repair, the cheap import is actually 10+ layers of cheap strip/ thin plate welded together which means it's buggered much quicker and harder or not worthwhile to repair. I could name more structures but :censored: it

cost a lot more than 60mil. 60mil will get you though the first month.
should we limit handouts to just the steel industry?
why not every industry?
cause its not affordable.


i dont think anyone is disagreeing that aust steel is better quality. point is noone is buying it. it could be the best steel in the world, if noones buying it....

[incisor]

cost a lot more than 60mil. 60mil will get you though the first month.

funny you carry on like this over steel and are all for mining who are given way bigger chucks of money than this year in year out.

i'll ask the question again

if you put $200m into something and you get $1200m back over a couple of years, what would you call it?

[frantic]

I have said all along that this issue needs government support , I just don't believe you have an open cheque book approach.
I was responding to your comment about cars being built in Thailand compared to else where, in Thailand the labour cost of assembly is maybe as low as 5% in countries like Australia it could be 10% so if you are assbling 1 million cars it's a huge expense even tho it's only 5%.

If the figures are as you quote on steel then why is it that with no transport costs due to them having their own mines can't we compete against imports? It seems looking from an outsider that the cost to run the day to day operation is to high. That is where my point on labour costs and workers demands Vs low productivity come in.
The fact that they have voluntarily called in receivers tells me the board of that company feel they are not able enough to trade out of trouble under the way they know how to do business. They need someone that looks at things differently to see if there are answers.

Just my view of course

Cheers Ean
Ill lay it out for you.
China over the last decade has gone from making about 200million tons of steel to the global number one at over 600million tons, total aussie production from both makers is about 5-6 million tons or 1%.
China for the last 5-7 years has been using less steel so they are mass exporting it to the point that during the high dollar / ore/coal prices it was cheaper to buy chinese steel than the raw materials to make it. How long would you stay open if a rival was selling a finished product cheaper than you could buy the raw materials.????
Now to start up a steelworks is not a simple thing, coke ovens , slab/steel casters, blast furnace's, sinter plants, rolling mills, materials handling, dispatch etc are all long term investments. A blast furnace usually has a campaign life of 20+years, so once blown in it never stops for 20 years. A down day is when the wind is stopped but the furnace is still 1/2-3/4 full, still red hot and still burning coke and melting ore.Now the chinese have lots of steel plants but the ideal size is around the 3-5million tons production point as otherwise the raw materials and liquid pig iron handling becomes to hard. Have a look at the planned steel plant at Gladstone, again 2 furnaces, making about 5 to 5.5 million tons a year.(what we used to do)
Up until 2011 we where exporting about 2.5-3million tons of steel slab and coil from port Kembla as we used to run 2 furnaces making over 5 million tons a year. But with the chinese dumping slab/coil globally BSL lost over a billion, result was we halved our workforce and shut one furnace which would now need a serious amount of money to restart.
All other markets except us and the U.K have put up serious limits and tariffs to stop their home manufacturing bases being decimated. Again , its being all over the news we froze our pay, in reality took a heavy cut as other items where cut, and signed an agreement for 3 years 0 pay rise to keep the place open.
Now the money BSL lost in 2011 would have paid the ENTIRE workforce in port Kembla for several years!!


As a result of OTHER countries protecting their manufacturing bases China has been forced to cut production by about 100million tons , or 20x what we make here!


Now as to productivity, back when we where all one Big Happy Party;)
Port Kembla was in the lowest cost per ton 10% globally with Whyalla in the lowest 20%, this was before govt incentives and bonuses where factored in.

[frantic]

cost a lot more than 60mil. 60mil will get you though the first month.
should we limit handouts to just the steel industry?
why not every industry?
cause its not affordable.


i dont think anyone is disagreeing that aust steel is better quality. point is noone is buying it. it could be the best steel in the world, if noones buying it....
No , its being bought, just not buying locally. If the govt bought locally, both BSL and Arrium would be ok, unfortunately their not.
No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/south-australian-treasurer-tom-koutsantonis-wants-to-know-why-nsw-has-favoured-spanish-steel-instead-of-whyalla/news-story/661a43d55a05178ce9949ccc67558183)


Found the link to back my numbers.
Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)


you still haven't answered the question .
Would you rather spend $60 million and get $500million back or "save it today" but tomorrow have to spend $100million and have a $500million hole in your income?

[Ean Austral]

Ill lay it out for you.
China over the last decade has gone from making about 200million tons of steel to the global number one at over 600million tons, total aussie production from both makers is about 5-6 million tons or 1%.
China for the last 5-7 years has been using less steel so they are mass exporting it to the point that during the high dollar / ore/coal prices it was cheaper to buy chinese steel than the raw materials to make it. How long would you stay open if a rival was selling a finished product cheaper than you could buy the raw materials.????
Now to start up a steelworks is not a simple thing, coke ovens , slab/steel casters, blast furnace's, sinter plants, rolling mills, materials handling, dispatch etc are all long term investments. A blast furnace usually has a campaign life of 20+years, so once blown in it never stops for 20 years. A down day is when the wind is stopped but the furnace is still 1/2-3/4 full, still red hot and still burning coke and melting ore.Now the chinese have lots of steel plants but the ideal size is around the 3-5million tons production point as otherwise the raw materials and liquid pig iron handling becomes to hard. Have a look at the planned steel plant at Gladstone, again 2 furnaces, making about 5 to 5.5 million tons a year.(what we used to do)
Up until 2011 we where exporting about 2.5-3million tons of steel slab and coil from port Kembla as we used to run 2 furnaces making over 5 million tons a year. But with the chinese dumping slab/coil globally BSL lost over a billion, result was we halved our workforce and shut one furnace which would now need a serious amount of money to restart.
All other markets except us and the U.K have put up serious limits and tariffs to stop their home manufacturing bases being decimated. Again , its being all over the news we froze our pay, in reality took a heavy cut as other items where cut, and signed an agreement for 3 years 0 pay rise to keep the place open.
Now the money BSL lost in 2011 would have paid the ENTIRE workforce in port Kembla for several years!!


As a result of OTHER countries protecting their manufacturing bases China has been forced to cut production by about 100million tons , or 20x what we make here!


Now as to productivity, back when we where all one Big Happy Party;)
Port Kembla was in the lowest cost per ton 10% globally with Whyalla in the lowest 20%, this was before govt incentives and bonuses where factored in.


And here lies the problem.. Why would the average consumer buy a product for double the price when they can buy what they deem to be the same product for less. Some people would say that is just business, and if they can afford to dump it on the market and absorb the losses then that's their choice.


This forum is full of threads about buying parts from O/S suppliers compared to local , this is the same thing only on a far bigger scale.


The only answer to this problem is before any $$ are pumped into saving this company the law on cheap imported products needs to change, but that wont happen so why get the government to pump 1,2,3 billion $$ in to save the company when they are going to be faced with the exact same problem a few years down the track.


I understand the consequences of not doing something and letting a whole town crumble, and certainly don't want to see that happen.


I hope there is a way found sooner rather than later to save them


Cheers Ean

[Mick_Marsh]

if you put $200m into something and you get $1200m back over a couple of years, what would you call it?
A shrewd investment.
The trouble is, when the government put our money into an investment, they don't get it back.
'I'm not a cowboy': Phoenix Institute investor maintains private college did nothing wrong - Background Briefing - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/phoenix-institute-founder-maintains-college-did-nothing-wrong/7303498)

It's sad to see Arrium is suffering.
PM - Arrium administrators hold crisis meetings as politics around steel heat up 08/04/2016 (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2016/s4439755.htm)

But this is not the governments fault. It is the fault of "we the people". Our constant drive for the cheapest at the expense of quality.
Circuit breakers, cladding, electrical cables, and now:
Warnings people could be die because of dangerous imported steel - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-08/warnings-people-could-be-die-because-of-dangerous/7311206)

A phrase often said "not complying with Australian Standards".

In my industry, we comply with these standards. We have to.
But the consumer buys from our competitor who imports product that does not comply.

In short, it's our fault.

[Eevo]

funny you carry on like this over steel and are all for mining who are given way bigger chucks of money than this year in year out.

i'll ask the question again

if you put $200m into something and you get $1200m back over a couple of years, what would you call it?

im all out for money being given to mining industry? that news to me.

it never makes its money back, look at the car industry.
if the govt made that much return, it would be investing more money. no such thing as a free lunch.

without that 200m handout the business would collapse yes? i call that a bad business model.

[Eevo]

No , its being bought, just not buying locally. If the govt bought locally, both BSL and Arrium would be ok, unfortunately their not.
No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/south-australian-treasurer-tom-koutsantonis-wants-to-know-why-nsw-has-favoured-spanish-steel-instead-of-whyalla/news-story/661a43d55a05178ce9949ccc67558183)


Found the link to back my numbers.
Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)


you still haven't answered the question .
Would you rather spend $60 million and get $500million back or "save it today" but tomorrow have to spend $100million and have a $500million hole in your income?


if its being bought and their making a profit, why are they shutting down?

[LandyAndy]

Andy,

I thought you didn't start paying hecs until you earned around $54k p.a

either that is some fair vacation job, or I've got my facts crooked....

Loan Repayment - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-repayment/pages/loan-repayment#WhenDoIHaveToRepayMyHELPDebt)

I will ask him,I know he was quite annoyed about it as he uses the money for the year to top up his student allowence.
Andrew

[DiscoMick]

Developed economies make complex premium products such as cars, ships, planes etc which require high investment in skills and facilities. Undeveloped economies don't. Which do we want to be?

Governments should enforce buy locally policies to support local industries by ensuring a base local market exists. For example we have a gas mining industry because the Qld Government in 1995 required 15% of Queensland's electricity to be generated by gas not coal

We might have retained a car manufacturing industry if the Abbott Government had continued the previous government's policy of supporting the manufacture of vehicles which were competitive such as the Holden Cruze and Ford Territory.

Thailand has become the 'Detroit of Asia' by imposing 400% import duties to protect companies which agree to make cars there (which we Aussies buy). That makes the Thais smarter than us Aussies.

If we throw away the steel industry because we're too selfish to work together to build up the country then we also undermine the industries which use its products to manufacture locally. That makes our country poorer and we all lose out in the long term.

We'll end up at the mercy of foreign companies who will jack up their prices to make us pay for being vulnerable to being exploited. I've just come back from Vanuatu so I've seen a vulnerable economy first-hand. Its not a pretty sight.

Surely its time for us Aussies to reject ideological economic theories and get back to doing what actually works in real life. Are we too stupid to see the truth?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[incisor]

it never makes its money back, look at the car industry.
if the govt made that much return, it would be investing more money. no such thing as a free lunch.

without that 200m handout the business would collapse yes? i call that a bad business model.

very myopic view

well proven that the government both state and federal were getting back much more than they were putting in... sure it wasn't directly but they were certainly getting it back indirectly from the workers and the businesses that depended on it and were supplying it.

whether the company made anything out of it has nothing to do with it in the long run.

conservative governments have been selling off profitable bits of government for years. it's what they aspire to... read their policy platforms.. if it can make money it should be in the private sector they say.. then they pump out the tripe about government having not enough income to pay for health and education.

i'll leave you too your one eyed ideology....

[BMKal]

We might have retained a car manufacturing industry if the Abbott Government had continued the previous government's policy of supporting the manufacture of vehicles which were competitive such as the Holden Cruze and Ford Territory.



Once again we get this same old clap trap argument .................. (in what had been a pretty good thread, free of politics and blind stupidity up until now).

Never mind that all three Australian car manufacturers had made up their mind to close up shop well before the Abbott government was elected to power - and Ford even made the announcement of their intentions before that election.

The decisions of the car makers were taken at a corporate level, outside of Australia, and were based on each company's interpretation of world competiveness and the size / capacity of the Australian market at the time - and had little, if anything at all to do with who was in government in Australia at the time (or who might / might not have been elected next time round - I don't think any of the car manufacturers had an accurate crystal ball at their disposal). These are undisputed and documented facts.

But some people never let the facts get in the way of their one eyed view of politics, and continue to dribble the same old garbage, even though it has been shown time and again for the garbage that it is. ;)

The biggest problem that I see today are the so called "free trade agreements" and the supposed "level playing fields". It is patently obvious to blind freddy that the playing field is definitely NOT level, across a very broad range of industries. This has been the doing of governments of BOTH persuasions - and is likely to continue as a problem for some time to come - until someone in high places realizes that these agreements are to Australia's detriment and has the balls to do something about it. If you are stupid enough to start pointing the finger at any one party / government - the demise of the Australian car industry is said by many commentators to have started with the "Button Plan" - a bloody long time before the Abbott government was even thought of.

[bob10]

If someone had $200m and they put that in something that returned $1200m in a couple of years, what would it be called?

The Mafia?

[BMKal]

Re The Hecs debt.
Lindsay just did another xmas uni break working for a mining company.He gets paid very good money,pays plenty of tax.
He is still at uni,the break is his main money earner for the year.I said at least you will get all that tax back,no he says,the 3 month job puts him over the threshold and he gets Hecs debts taken out of his return despite not having completed his studies.
He also gets lower student payments from centrelink because I put too much into my super every fortnite.He doesnt live at home,hasnt done for 3 years.
Andrew


Andy,

I thought you didn't start paying hecs until you earned around $54k p.a

either that is some fair vacation job, or I've got my facts crooked....

Loan Repayment - Study Assist (http://studyassist.gov.au/sites/studyassist/payingbackmyloan/loan-repayment/pages/loan-repayment#WhenDoIHaveToRepayMyHELPDebt)

Pretty sure that HECS re-payment is based on "annualised" earnings, and not "annual" earnings. Unless I'm mistaken, the "ability" to re-pay HECS would be based on your pay for an individual pay period, multiplied by the number of pay periods in a year to give a calculated "annualised" earnings - in much the same way that taxation liability is calculated each pay period.

For example, I only work occasionally these days, but when I do work I am still taxed in the top tax bracket. They take my weekly earnings and multiply it by 52 to arrive at an "annualised" figure, and then tax me on that basis. The fact that I no longer work anywhere near the 52 available weeks in the year means that I get a refund at the end of the financial year, when the tax that I have paid is assessed against the actual earnings over the full year.

I'm not sure if you can claim a refund on HECS fees paid on this basis (somehow I doubt it) - but it is definitely worth asking the question of a decent taxation accountant.

It's got me buggered why Lindsay's student payments are affected by your super contributions though Andrew. As he is no longer a "dependent" and you are not claiming anything for him, I can't see how your financial matters should affect his entitlements.

[Fatso]

Google the "Australian Debt clock" for probably the real reason we are not in good shape .

[AndyG]

A Nigerian bank account, promise I will send the 1200m

We are a trading nation,and need to trade on our strengths. Last thing we want is barriers go up around the world blocking our exports.

About the best any Govt can do to protect industry is
Rigorous anti dumping controls
Rigorous quality control so we don't get crappy steel, cars, building cladding etc. Ffs the USA did not pick up non compliant VW for how many years
And give bonus marks for local content in contract tenders

[AndyG]

No need to visit Greece, it's coming here

[Ean Austral]

A shrewd investment.
The trouble is, when the government put our money into an investment, they don't get it back.
'I'm not a cowboy': Phoenix Institute investor maintains private college did nothing wrong - Background Briefing - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/phoenix-institute-founder-maintains-college-did-nothing-wrong/7303498)

It's sad to see Arrium is suffering.
PM - Arrium administrators hold crisis meetings as politics around steel heat up 08/04/2016 (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2016/s4439755.htm)

But this is not the governments fault. It is the fault of "we the people". Our constant drive for the cheapest at the expense of quality.
Circuit breakers, cladding, electrical cables, and now:
Warnings people could be die because of dangerous imported steel - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-08/warnings-people-could-be-die-because-of-dangerous/7311206)

A phrase often said "not complying with Australian Standards".

In my industry, we comply with these standards. We have to.
But the consumer buys from our competitor who imports product that does not comply.

In short, it's our fault.

100% correct Mick , and it isn't going to change anytime soon. We all want to buy the cheapest regardless of place of origin, then blame the government when something like this happens.

Cheers Ean

[Mick_Marsh]

Google the "Australian Debt clock" for probably the real reason we are not in good shape .
Did you read the disclaimer

The Owner is not in the business of providing professional advice and gives no warranty guarantee or representation about the accuracy,
Says it all, really.

[Pickles2]

Developed economies make complex premium products such as cars, ships, planes etc which require high investment in skills and facilities. Undeveloped economies don't. Which do we want to be?

Governments should enforce buy locally policies to support local industries by ensuring a base local market exists. For example we have a gas mining industry because the Qld Government in 1995 required 15% of Queensland's electricity to be generated by gas not coal

We might have retained a car manufacturing industry if the Abbott Government had continued the previous government's policy of supporting the manufacture of vehicles which were competitive such as the Holden Cruze and Ford Territory.

Thailand has become the 'Detroit of Asia' by imposing 400% import duties to protect companies which agree to make cars there (which we Aussies buy). That makes the Thais smarter than us Aussies.

If we throw away the steel industry because we're too selfish to work together to build up the country then we also undermine the industries which use its products to manufacture locally. That makes our country poorer and we all lose out in the long term.

We'll end up at the mercy of foreign companies who will jack up their prices to make us pay for being vulnerable to being exploited. I've just come back from Vanuatu so I've seen a vulnerable economy first-hand. Its not a pretty sight.

Surely its time for us Aussies to reject ideological economic theories and get back to doing what actually works in real life. Are we too stupid to see the truth?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app
Mate, the car industry,...How could the Australian Govt "support the production of Cruze & territory"?....The Cruze has been a disaster from inception,..outclassed by the opposition,....have a look at the current figures. Terrirory,..nice car but not sold outside Aus, because it was Ford USA that wouldn't support that NOT the Aussie Govt. In fact, the Aussie Govt gave big dollars to Ford to produce the Focus in Aus. What did Ford do?...I'll tell you, THEY decided to make the Focus in Thailand, (I'll let you guess why?), and they put that money into the emission development of the Falcon 6, which is now obsolete. So, whose fault is that?,...It sure as hell ain't the fault of the Govt,...ANY Govt.
And, please don't forget to tell me why Ford made the decision to make the Focus in Thailand.
Pickles.

[frantic]

Ean and eevo read this, Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)

Ean the cost of buying local is not "double", it's not even 20% , in most cases it's down to single figures 0.5-5% read the report. 60-80 million extra cost on 2 billion worth of projects is 3-4%.
Eevo read the post the MARKET is here but our govt is importing the product which means locals must export at a loss.

In reality Whyalla plant is worth to build around 4 billion

Pickles, we've told you why but your not listening. 7 years zero tax.
Also uk and Europe made both Gm and ford export their products made locally , mondeo in China and oz, vectra and Astra etc.

[Pickles2]

Ean and eevo read this, Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)

Ean the cost of buying local is not "double", it's not even 20% , in most cases it's down to single figures 0.5-5% read the report. 60-80 million extra cost on 2 billion worth of projects is 3-4%.
Eevo read the post the MARKET is here but our govt is importing the product which means locals must export at a loss.

In reality Whyalla plant is worth to build around 4 billion
G'Day My friend, I've just got back in from attending a lovely car show, so I've caught up on this thread, which I've now read.
Mate, you called me a "Figures Man"!!!?......Lol,...You've just proved to me, after reading this thread, that you are the master!!!..All good.
But really this thread could've gone anywhere, but it's refreshing to see the way it has gone, even though many of us have differing views.
Are you directly caught up with Arium?
Regards, Pickles.

[Eevo]

whether the company made anything out of it has nothing to do with it in the long run.

i think here is the key point were we differ.
you think its ok for a business to run at a loss as long as it employees people regardless of how bad the business is performing.
i dont.

[Eevo]

Ean and eevo read this, Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)

Ean the cost of buying local is not "double", it's not even 20% , in most cases it's down to single figures 0.5-5% read the report. 60-80 million extra cost on 2 billion worth of projects is 3-4%.
Eevo read the post the MARKET is here but our govt is importing the product which means locals must export at a loss.

In reality Whyalla plant is worth to build around 4 billion

Pickles, we've told you why but your not listening. 7 years zero tax.

many times buying local (not just steel) is more expensive. anywhere from 55% to 100%

if buying australian was so cheap, we would all be doing it.

[Ean Austral]

Ean and eevo read this, Buying Australian makes sense (http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3407231/buying-australian-makes-sense-report/)

Ean the cost of buying local is not "double", it's not even 20% , in most cases it's down to single figures 0.5-5% read the report. 60-80 million extra cost on 2 billion worth of projects is 3-4%.
Eevo read the post the MARKET is here but our govt is importing the product which means locals must export at a loss.

In reality Whyalla plant is worth to build around 4 billion

Pickles, we've told you why but your not listening. 7 years zero tax.


You seem to forget I work in an industry that competes against the same thing as the steel industry, I seen a fleet of 300 trawlers reduced to 50 so we could keep the industry afloat ( pardon the pun ) , My family went from 3 trawlers to 1 just to survive because we believed in the industry.


We have paid out millions as an industry for things like MSC certification so we could atleast have a leg to stand on when we battled the green movement, and I must say a lot of these changes are for the good. We seen refrigerant gas rise buy 300% the day after the carbon tax came in, all this and compete against foreign prawn imports where costs are 10% of ours.


I no longer own a trawler but we own a license, and I now manage 16 of them , so I know first hand the industry is still facing those same factors, and when we tried to get country of origin labelling the NT was the only state or territory that would do it off the bat, it took the senate years to finally see there was a merit in our point of view. I believe that its still not law in all states.... Why...


I might add that when our fishery achieved MSC ( marine stewardship council ) certification we were the only bottom trawl prawn fishery in the world to do so, I believe several now have it, as an industry we couldn't afford it but we realised it was our future at stake. We receive not 1c from the government when we approached them for help.


Believe me I have met with ministers , prime ministers and the like, fighting against the same issue's the steel industry is facing.


You don't need to preach to the preacher, but I am realistic enough to know that there are far more factors involved than simply telling people to buy Australian. The view of most in this country seems that they only pay attention to this when it affects them directly.


I have said it before, people buy on price first, and have done for a long time.


Cheers Ean

[Fatso]

Did you read the disclaimer

Says it all, really.
[/COLOR]


Ok , point taken , Australia has now toped the Trillion $ foreign Debt at approx. 1 Trillion $ and about $250b public sector debt . .


Even if this is 5% out it is a mountain of debt for 23m people , which ever way we cut the musted we are in for some pain .

[frantic]

Ean, the difference between your industry and mine is that the govt don't have the potential to buy a majority of your product to use locally in projects.;)
The U.K. Is in the same **** basket we are here, have a read.

Britain sacrifices steel industry to curry favour with China (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/)

12 million tonnes made in uk being swamped by Chinese dumping and zero govt help compared to the USA, now what's their tarrifs on imports?

Now as much as I do buy local ,fisheries included , whenever possible, trawlers are not a strategic industry but steel is. Where was the Owen gun made? What where all the munitions made from? The steel for the last three generations of subs? Maybe not the next but no political context here.;) the plating for the bushmaster and numerous other oz built ADF equipment?
Now if we had a war or even a neighbour with a trade dispute and needed rails or any other infrastructures repaired could we wait for a ship to run a blockade or make it here?

[Ean Austral]

Ean, the difference between your industry and mine is that the govt don't have the potential to buy a majority of your product to use locally in projects.;)
The U.K. Is in the same **** basket we are here, have a read.

Britain sacrifices steel industry to curry favour with China (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/)

12 million tonnes made in uk being swamped by Chinese dumping and zero govt help compared to the USA, now what's their tarrifs on imports?

Now as much as I do buy local ,fisheries included , whenever possible, trawlers are not a strategic industry but steel is. Where was the Owen gun made? What where all the munitions made from? The steel for the last three generations of subs? Maybe not the next but no political context here.;) the plating for the bushmaster and numerous other oz built ADF equipment?
Now if we had a war or even a neighbour with a trade dispute and needed rails or any other infrastructures repaired could we wait for a ship to run a blockade or make it here?


Ahh but we do need to feed the people making all this stuff.:p

Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

Now if we had a war or even a neighbour with a trade dispute and needed rails or any other infrastructures repaired could we wait for a ship to run a blockade or make it here?

i can actually buy into this.
but
pretty sure china will wipe the floor with us

[Ean Austral]

Ean, the difference between your industry and mine is that the govt don't have the potential to buy a majority of your product to use locally in projects.;)
The U.K. Is in the same **** basket we are here, have a read.

Britain sacrifices steel industry to curry favour with China (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/)

12 million tonnes made in uk being swamped by Chinese dumping and zero govt help compared to the USA, now what's their tarrifs on imports?

Now as much as I do buy local ,fisheries included , whenever possible, trawlers are not a strategic industry but steel is. Where was the Owen gun made? What where all the munitions made from? The steel for the last three generations of subs? Maybe not the next but no political context here.;) the plating for the bushmaster and numerous other oz built ADF equipment?
Now if we had a war or even a neighbour with a trade dispute and needed rails or any other infrastructures repaired could we wait for a ship to run a blockade or make it here?


On a serious note , you failed to see 300 boats employing on average 6 people per boat = 1800 people , not to mention numerous shore base industries including steel suppliers. The decline to 50 boats only see's a workforce of 300 people , the 12 sheds where I work were full of businesses that did work directly for the trawlers, now there is 1 - the fuel supplier.


Maybe not on the same scale, but does it ring a similar bell to yours ?


Guess how much media attention the decline of the fishing fleet received ?


Cheers Ean

[frantic]

Ahh but we do need to feed the people making all this stuff.:p

Cheers Ean

The trawlers made out of?
The fuel it runs on is stored in?
It's transported to market in vehicles made of? That are running on either tracks made of or bridges constructed with?

Eevo run the likely scenario that's brewing at the moment, not a direct all out war but a trade and area disputes in our backyard with China building islands and arguing with a)Japan b) Taiwan c) Vietnam d) north and or South Korea e) Phillipines, Or possibly more than one with most pulling in the USA to the mix and us as well

[PAT303]

100% correct Mick , and it isn't going to change anytime soon. We all want to buy the cheapest regardless of place of origin, then blame the government when something like this happens.

Cheers Ean

When I tried to buy a heater matrix for the Tdi from an Australian company and was quoted $405 with a 5-7 day delivery date compared to $48 from a UK company with a 5-7 day delivery date which do you think I picked?.I don't buy cheap,I hate doing jobs twice but I hate getting ripped off more :D. Pat

[Ean Austral]

When I tried to buy a heater matrix for the Tdi from an Australian company and was quoted $405 with a 5-7 day delivery date compared to $48 from a UK company with a 5-7 day delivery date which do you think I picked?.I don't buy cheap,I hate doing jobs twice but I hate getting ripped off more :D. Pat


most likely the same one that 99% of us would have made.


Cheers Ean

[bob10]

This is scary. Logged on to find a multiplication of posts, on a controversial subject, pop up out of nowhere. And not a angry word, or nasty comment, to be seen. Just old fashioned discussion, albeit robust, and keen. I'm gob smacked. Well done all, long may it continue.

[Bytemrk]

We had to very similar threads running Bob, one in here one in general, so we decided to merge them....;)

You started yours first... so they both ended up in here :D

[bob10]

We had to very similar threads running Bob, one in here one in general, so we decided to merge them....;)

You started yours first... so they both ended up in here :D

You are making me nervous, do I need my tin hat/

[Bytemrk]

Not at all :spudnikbeanie:

[frantic]

See what we are failing to recognise is chinas willing to pay for its companies losses, to repost :
The giant state producer Sinosteel - with $16bn of debts - was rescued from bankruptcy in October. The reforms failed their first big test. UBS estimates that the 100 biggest steel producers in China lost $11bn in the first ten months of last year. The state plugged the hole.
And:
While Washington has slapped penalties of 267pc on Chinese cold-rolled steel, the EU peashooter has so far managed just 13pc.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/03/30/britain-sacrifices-steel-industry-to-curry-favour-with-china/


Now what's our tariff?
Ohh that's right "free trade" rofl.
Why Australian factories are on their knees (http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/why-australian-factories-are-on-their-knees-20150209-139w1v.html)


Now if chinas prepared to lose 1.1 billion a month to buy a sector, what will we pay when they own it?
Steel is unlike fishing in one major way, to start up takes years and billions of dollars, how long would it take to buy a trawler, crew it and expand existing wharves to unload a larger catch?
Today the chinese are willing to lose 200 euro or usd a ton to own a market and keep their people employed.


Heres a prophetic piece from 2006.
COVER STORY: Top manufacturer slams free trade 'fantasy' (http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=2461)

[bob10]

Why Australian factories are on their knees (http://www.smh.com.au/good-weekend/why-australian-factories-are-on-their-knees-20150209-139w1v.html)


Heres a prophetic piece from 2006.
COVER STORY: Top manufacturer slams free trade 'fantasy' (http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=2461)[/QUOTE]

Two articles every Australian should read. That should put to bed the fantasy of high workers wages ruining industry , forever. What people must realise, is Chinese are the best hard nosed businessmen in the World, and never give a sucker a break. And we are suckers, for sure.

[AndyG]

I wonder how many people would buy Arrium Bonds if they were issued next week to keep it going

[bob10]

I wonder how many people would buy Arrium Bonds if they were issued next week to keep it going

Perhaps the Chinese will snap them up.

[Ean Austral]

I wonder how many people questioned what was going to happen when china was buying our resources by the ship load. A as country we were welcoming it with open arms , well looks like it wasn't so smart after all.


I wonder if the mining companies that helped supply china with the resources to be able to make that much steel would line up to buy those Arrium bonds.


Just a question , I am sure frantic will know the answer - How long has the Whyalla plant been in operation ?


Cheers Ean

[AndyG]

1901 mining
1941 smelting

[Eevo]

1940's?

[Ean Austral]

So the arguement of it taking years to set up and billions of dollars if it has been operational since 1940s is interesting . I am sure it's needed major upgrades since then which of course has to be factored in.

So China has been dumping steel on the world market at lower than production cost in Australia for the last few years , and that has brought the company to its knees, mainly because for the last few years every man and his dog has bought cheap imported steel.

Capital investment was in the 1940,s with several upgrades needed since then, so i think it could most likely be a case of a board / management that was asleep at the wheel.

I certainly think the core problem needs addressing - what tariffs need to be imposed before the open cheque book occurs , but don't think a new set of board members for Arrium would hurt either it seems.

Cheers Ean

[Pickles2]

Lots of talk about Arium here, what should be done, what people need to do, progressive action, what Aussies should do, "move on, move forward" (Jeez, how many times do I need to hear "move forward").
BUT, there has beeen NO talk of how Arium can "Move Forward", NO CONCRETE PROGRAM FROM ANYONE, as to how Arium can survive.
Nothing concrete from Arium, its management, Administrators, The Banks, in fact NO-ONE has come up with anything, any solution, as to how Arium can return to efficient, profitable, production.
And I'm not surprised, and as I've said before, Arium is simply the latest of a long line, which will get longer.
Are We in BIG TROUBLE?..Absolutely. We ain't got no spare ammo, & we are borrowing more "ammo" every day.
Will the Govt, ANY Govt, fix the problem? Well, I say neither is capable of that at the moment, for very different reasons,..quite happy to enlarge on that if anyone's interested, but ya're probably not!
So, IMHO, don't just confine your thoughts to Arium, the problem is MUCH bigger than that, I wish it wasn't, but IMHO, it is.
"Voice of Doom"?..Probably, Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

Lots of talk about Arium here, what should be done, what people need to do, progressive action, what Aussies should do, "move on, move forward" (Jeez, how many times do I need to hear "move forward").
BUT, there has beeen NO talk of how Arium can "Move Forward", NO CONCRETE PROGRAM FROM ANYONE, as to how Arium can survive.
Nothing concrete from Arium, its management, Administrators, The Banks, in fact NO-ONE has come up with anything, any solution, as to how Arium can return to efficient, profitable, production.
And I'm not surprised, and as I've said before, Arium is simply the latest of a long line, which will get longer.
Are We in BIG TROUBLE?..Absolutely. We ain't got no spare ammo, & we are borrowing more "ammo" every day.
Will the Govt, ANY Govt, fix the problem? Well, I say neither is capable of that at the moment, for very different reasons,..quite happy to enlarge on that if anyone's interested, but ya're probably not!
So, IMHO, don't just confine your thoughts to Arium, the problem is MUCH bigger than that, I wish it wasn't, but IMHO, it is.
"Voice of Doom"?..Probably, Pickles.


You will only hear the odd snippet, the board & management of Arium don't have any answers that's why the called in the receivers , the only side of government that has a lot to say in this sort of situation is whomever is in opposition as they can woffle on as much as they like with uncosted dribble because they will never be held accountable they try and win votes , and the receivers well they will take age's and trawl thru every bit of the company they can, leaving no stone unturned as they get paid regardless, even before any creditor get 1c.


I think you are most likely correct, we as a country spend more than we make, its the reason Arium is in this situation and why as a country we will go the same way, unless some political party finds the balls to make the tough calls , put up with the bad publicity , and hope that people wake up and realise its something as a whole we need to do. None of the current crop of pollies will do it as they are to worried about keeping the golden egg job they have.


The last politician that had the balls to do it when Howard stood up to the gun lobby and common sense prevailed, but that's for a different thread.


Cheers Ean

[AndyG]

There are sunset industries and sunrise industries for Australia, need to pick the winners. Anyone got a lazy 14 B for a silicon chip foundry

[Mick_Marsh]

There are sunset industries and sunrise industries for Australia, need to pick the winners. Anyone got a lazy 14 B for a silicon chip foundry
Silicon, old tech.
What about organics?

[AndyG]

Agree,
Nano, bionics, quantum computing

[incisor]

i think here is the key point were we differ.
you think its ok for a business to run at a loss as long as it employees people regardless of how bad the business is performing.
i dont.
that's not what i said at all..

lots of business are run at a loss.... especially when you have some other overly profitable ones

this myopic view that each should be viewed in isolation is half the issue...

[bob10]

Lots of talk about Arium here, what should be done, what people need to do, progressive action, what Aussies should do, "move on, move forward" (Jeez, how many times do I need to hear "move forward").
BUT, there has beeen NO talk of how Arium can "Move Forward", NO CONCRETE PROGRAM FROM ANYONE, as to how Arium can survive.
Nothing concrete from Arium, its management, Administrators, The Banks, in fact NO-ONE has come up with anything, any solution, as to how Arium can return to efficient, profitable, production.
And I'm not surprised, and as I've said before, Arium is simply the latest of a long line, which will get longer.
Are We in BIG TROUBLE?..Absolutely. We ain't got no spare ammo, & we are borrowing more "ammo" every day.
Will the Govt, ANY Govt, fix the problem? Well, I say neither is capable of that at the moment, for very different reasons,..quite happy to enlarge on that if anyone's interested, but ya're probably not!
So, IMHO, don't just confine your thoughts to Arium, the problem is MUCH bigger than that, I wish it wasn't, but IMHO, it is.
"Voice of Doom"?..Probably, Pickles.

It is preferable to think through a problem, and find a way to move forward, then sit on ones thumb, and rotate. The answer is simple. Tariffs. Exactly what the USA is doing. They have the courage, we have the ditherers. Remind me , what fine body of men sold us out with the free trade deal. Free for some, devastating for us.

[bob10]

Silicon, old tech.
What about organics?

The World needs to be fed. Food & water, with Earths population growing fast,
investment in food growth seems a lay down misere. We should spend the money needed to ensure an adequate supply of water, to our best producing areas. Before foreign companies own it all. About those foreign companies;


The following is an extract from an article by Frank Walker which appeared in the Sun Herald, 17 September 2000.
"The level of foreign ownership of Australian companies has doubled in the past decade to 21% of gross domestic product (GDP) and foreign debt hovers at 40% of GDP. The money leaving Australia to foreign owners doubled in the decade to $12 billion last year."
"Tax expert and Electronic International Trade Service director Martin Feil said multinationals use a tax trick called transfer pricing to escape paying tax in Australia. An Australian Taxation Office review of 207 companies, which generated $30 billion in annual revenue, showed they paid less than $40 million in company tax."
"'Despite having operated in Australia for decades, over half of the foreign companies paid no tax at all,' Mr. Feil said

Who is getting the kickback?

[strangy]

I seem to be on a slightly different page here.
While I believe governments should purchase local product. I believe supports should be in place but not to protect big business like GM or those who pack up to operate elsewhere.
These manufacturers are not leaving Australia because the business model is unsustainable.
They are leaving/ have left, to ensure the new Merc, biz jet, holiday home is not compromised.
Business never operates with an ideology, that is just spin to make consumers and employees feel good.
Business operates to make the owners/ investors money.
Employees are nothing in the scheme other than what can be had at the lowest price.
There isn't a business ormanufacturer in the world that would not take advantage of free labour.
Ideological business models where others matter do not exist.
Ideology is up to the consumer.
No such thing as a billionaire aged care giver.
The wealthy will step on, bury whatever gets in their way to ensure their own wellbeing, whether people, environment even governments, crying poor all the way.
Big business won't change because we get concerned about social effects.
But the government could impose tarifs to help protect the countries viable industries.

As mentioned before, steel landing here cheaper than the the ore was sold to the manufacturer isn't a sustainable business model- it is a hostile business move to remove all competitors.
GM and others left for more cash and expected the Australian taxpayer to provide cheap/ free labour and sustain the executives excessive lifestyle.

[bob10]

I wonder how many people questioned what was going to happen when china was buying our resources by the ship load. A as country we were welcoming it with open arms , well looks like it wasn't so smart after all.


I wonder if the mining companies that helped supply china with the resources to be able to make that much steel would line up to buy those Arrium bonds.


Just a question , I am sure frantic will know the answer - How long has the Whyalla plant been in operation ?


Cheers Ean

Whyalla steel mill was born out of necessity during WW2, to help the Commonwealth War effort. However iron ore had been mined from the Middleback range since 1900. [ the mines were called Iron Duke, Iron Knob, Iron Monarch, Iron Baron, Iron Princess, & Iron Chiefton] Ore was shipped to Port Pirie to be used as flux in smelters. Later ore was sent to Port Kembla. I believe the mill was started in May 1941, and first used to send pig iron at BHP plants. The names of the mines may sound familiar, because they are , in the main, the names of ships built by the Whyalla shipyard.

It wasn't until the 1960's that rolling mills & coke ovens were constructed, enabling the Whyalla plant to become a fully integrated steelworks. The shipyard built the largest ship in Australia, Darling River, and the first gas turbine-electric powered ship, the Seaway Prince.

Back then, the Government of the day decided Australia did not need a shipbuilding industry. The shipyard closed, Whyalla went into a major re cession. The workforce at the steelworks went from 6,000, to 1500. Ever since then, the steel works has been behind the 8 ball, just surviving. The Chinese problem was the straw , the lack of interest from various federal governments , the back breaker. Don't blame the present board, it goes way back. One has to think, if governments had not been donated massive amounts of money from mining interests, whether they would have fallen asleep at the desk. A list of ships built. None have been built since.

Vessels built at Whyalla shipyards[edit]

MV Lake Illawarra was sunk after colliding with the Tasman Bridge in 1975. 5 motorists' lives were lost.

HMAS Pirie was launched in Whyalla in 1941

HMAS Kalgoorlie was launched in Whyalla in 1941

Plate from the vessel P.J.Adams on display at the SA Maritime Museum.
Name Type Owner DWT Launched
HMAS Gawler Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Kalgoorlie Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Pirie Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Whyalla Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
Iron Monarch Ore Carrier BHP 8160 1942
Iron Duke II Ore Carrier BHP 7740 1943
River Glenelg Freighter Australian National Line 9260 1943
River Derwent Freighter Australian National Line 9320 1944
River Murchison Freighter Australian National Line 9250 1944
River Murray Freighter Australian National Line 9380 1945
River Murrumbidgee Freighter Australian National Line 9290 1945
Dandenong Freighter Australian National Line 3040 1946
Daylesford Freighter Australian National Line 3030 1946
Delamere Freighter State Shipping Service of Western Australia 3010 1946
Barrigun Freighter Australian National Line 6350 1947
Iron Yampi Bulk Carrier BHP 13100 1947
Balarr Freighter Howard Smith Industries 6350 1948
Balook Freighter Australian National Line 6350 1949
Iron Kimberley Bulk Carrier BHP 12760 1949
Iron Derby Bulk Carrier BHP 11790 1950
Baroota Freighter Adelaide Steamship Co. Ltd. 6350 1951
Iron Wyndham Bulk Carrier BHP 13070 1952
Iron Whyalla Bulk Carrier BHP 10800 1953
Yanderra Collier Australian National Line 4830 1954
Yarrunga Collier Australian National Line 4830 1954
Lake Eyre Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1955
Iron Spencer Bulk Carrier BHP 12800 1956
Lake Illawarra Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1957
Lake Torrens Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1957
Lake Macquarie Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1958
Iron Flinders Ore Carrier BHP 19400 1959
Mount Keira Ore Carrier Australian National Line 14220 1959
Iron Dampier Ore Carrier BHP 19320 1960
Mount Kembla Ore Carrier Australian National Line 15240 1960
Mittagong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 16660 1962
P.J. Adams Tanker Ampol Petroleum Ltd. 32770 1962
Wollongong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 16660 1962
Seaway Queen Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 3250 1963
Musgrave Range Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 21740 1964
Seaway King Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 3250 1964
Darling River Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 49780 1965
Gerrigong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 21740 1965[7]
Bogong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 55880 1966
Ocean Digger Oil Drilling Barge ODECO (Aust) Ltd. 1967
Cellana Tanker Shell Co. of Australia Ltd. 22350 1968
Iron Hunter Bulk Carrier BHP 55460 1968
Kanimbla Container ship Bulkships Ltd. 10670 1968
Clutha Oceanic Bulk Carrier Hastings Shipping Co. Pty. Ltd. 55630 1969
Manoora Container ship Bulkships Ltd. 15140 1969
Yarra River Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 55680 1970
Amanda Miller Tanker R. W. Miller & Co. Pty. Ltd. 67060 1971
Mobil Australis Tanker Mobil Oil Australia Ltd. 24380 1971[8]
Clutha Capricorn Bulk Carrier Clutha Development Co. Pty. Ltd. 84330 1972
W.M. Leonard Tanker Ampol Petroleum Ltd. 25910 1972
Iron Duke Roll-on/Roll-off BHP 14630 1973
Iron Monarch Roll-on/Roll-off BHP 14630 1973
Arthur Phillip Tanker Botany Bay Tanker Co.(Aust) Pty. Ltd. 67820 1974
Zincmaster Bulk Carrier & Roll-on/Roll-off Holyman Operations Pty Ltd., Hobart 12696 1975[9]
Seaway Prince Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 1975[10]
Seaway Princess Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 5550 1975[9]
Union Rotorua Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 14550 1976[9]
Union Rotoiti Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 14550 1976[9]
Iron Carpentaria Bulk Ore Carrier BHP 45430 1977[9]
Iron Curtis Bulk Carrier BHP 45430 1978[9][11]

[Ean Austral]

Whyalla steel mill was born out of necessity during WW2, to help the Commonwealth War effort. However iron ore had been mined from the Middleback range since 1900. [ the mines were called Iron Duke, Iron Knob, Iron Monarch, Iron Baron, Iron Princess, & Iron Chiefton] Ore was shipped to Port Pirie to be used as flux in smelters. Later ore was sent to Port Kembla. I believe the mill was started in May 1941, and first used to send pig iron at BHP plants. The names of the mines may sound familiar, because they are , in the main, the names of ships built by the Whyalla shipyard.

It wasn't until the 1960's that rolling mills & coke ovens were constructed, enabling the Whyalla plant to become a fully integrated steelworks. The shipyard built the largest ship in Australia, Darling River, and the first gas turbine-electric powered ship, the Seaway Prince.

Back then, the Government of the day decided Australia did not need a shipbuilding industry. The shipyard closed, Whyalla went into a major re cession. The workforce at the steelworks went from 6,000, to 1500. Ever since then, the steel works has been behind the 8 ball, just surviving. The Chinese problem was the straw , the lack of interest from various federal governments , the back breaker. Don't blame the present board, it goes way back. One has to think, if governments had not been donated massive amounts of money from mining interests, whether they would have fallen asleep at the desk. A list of ships built. None have been built since.

Vessels built at Whyalla shipyards[edit]

MV Lake Illawarra was sunk after colliding with the Tasman Bridge in 1975. 5 motorists' lives were lost.

HMAS Pirie was launched in Whyalla in 1941

HMAS Kalgoorlie was launched in Whyalla in 1941

Plate from the vessel P.J.Adams on display at the SA Maritime Museum.
Name Type Owner DWT Launched
HMAS Gawler Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Kalgoorlie Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Pirie Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
HMAS Whyalla Corvette Royal Australian Navy 690 1941
Iron Monarch Ore Carrier BHP 8160 1942
Iron Duke II Ore Carrier BHP 7740 1943
River Glenelg Freighter Australian National Line 9260 1943
River Derwent Freighter Australian National Line 9320 1944
River Murchison Freighter Australian National Line 9250 1944
River Murray Freighter Australian National Line 9380 1945
River Murrumbidgee Freighter Australian National Line 9290 1945
Dandenong Freighter Australian National Line 3040 1946
Daylesford Freighter Australian National Line 3030 1946
Delamere Freighter State Shipping Service of Western Australia 3010 1946
Barrigun Freighter Australian National Line 6350 1947
Iron Yampi Bulk Carrier BHP 13100 1947
Balarr Freighter Howard Smith Industries 6350 1948
Balook Freighter Australian National Line 6350 1949
Iron Kimberley Bulk Carrier BHP 12760 1949
Iron Derby Bulk Carrier BHP 11790 1950
Baroota Freighter Adelaide Steamship Co. Ltd. 6350 1951
Iron Wyndham Bulk Carrier BHP 13070 1952
Iron Whyalla Bulk Carrier BHP 10800 1953
Yanderra Collier Australian National Line 4830 1954
Yarrunga Collier Australian National Line 4830 1954
Lake Eyre Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1955
Iron Spencer Bulk Carrier BHP 12800 1956
Lake Illawarra Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1957
Lake Torrens Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1957
Lake Macquarie Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 10160 1958
Iron Flinders Ore Carrier BHP 19400 1959
Mount Keira Ore Carrier Australian National Line 14220 1959
Iron Dampier Ore Carrier BHP 19320 1960
Mount Kembla Ore Carrier Australian National Line 15240 1960
Mittagong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 16660 1962
P.J. Adams Tanker Ampol Petroleum Ltd. 32770 1962
Wollongong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 16660 1962
Seaway Queen Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 3250 1963
Musgrave Range Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 21740 1964
Seaway King Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 3250 1964
Darling River Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 49780 1965
Gerrigong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 21740 1965[7]
Bogong Bulk Carrier Bulkships Ltd. 55880 1966
Ocean Digger Oil Drilling Barge ODECO (Aust) Ltd. 1967
Cellana Tanker Shell Co. of Australia Ltd. 22350 1968
Iron Hunter Bulk Carrier BHP 55460 1968
Kanimbla Container ship Bulkships Ltd. 10670 1968
Clutha Oceanic Bulk Carrier Hastings Shipping Co. Pty. Ltd. 55630 1969
Manoora Container ship Bulkships Ltd. 15140 1969
Yarra River Bulk Carrier Australian National Line 55680 1970
Amanda Miller Tanker R. W. Miller & Co. Pty. Ltd. 67060 1971
Mobil Australis Tanker Mobil Oil Australia Ltd. 24380 1971[8]
Clutha Capricorn Bulk Carrier Clutha Development Co. Pty. Ltd. 84330 1972
W.M. Leonard Tanker Ampol Petroleum Ltd. 25910 1972
Iron Duke Roll-on/Roll-off BHP 14630 1973
Iron Monarch Roll-on/Roll-off BHP 14630 1973
Arthur Phillip Tanker Botany Bay Tanker Co.(Aust) Pty. Ltd. 67820 1974
Zincmaster Bulk Carrier & Roll-on/Roll-off Holyman Operations Pty Ltd., Hobart 12696 1975[9]
Seaway Prince Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 1975[10]
Seaway Princess Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 5550 1975[9]
Union Rotorua Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 14550 1976[9]
Union Rotoiti Roll-on/Roll-off Union Steamship Company of New Zealand 14550 1976[9]
Iron Carpentaria Bulk Ore Carrier BHP 45430 1977[9]
Iron Curtis Bulk Carrier BHP 45430 1978[9][11]


Thanks Bob,


But all that post does is tell a simple minded dumb person like me the place has been doomed for a long time , its been death by 1000 cuts instead of a major heart attack.


I would quite happily tell the tax man to divert all my tax to save the place, but sadly I cant do that and those on welfare and all the other places where my tax $$ go wouldn't be happy.


Its a double edge sword, look at the employment that mining create during the GFC , if we didn't have that then where about s would we be ? I don't know as that's not my field, but I can guess. I wonder if the government during the resources boom had the foresight to realise that we were feeding the animal that was going to try and eat us to keep itself alive, I doubt it. keep digging holes and ship it out , keep the $$$ rolling into the coffers so we can waste it elsewhere.


The current management / board has to be held to account , they would have known they were in a troubled market , your post says so. Take the money , do the job , accept the consequences.


Don't get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is us ( Australia ) loose more key industries , but lets sort out the core problem first , before we just throw money at it to band aid the issue.


Cheers Ean

[bob10]

Thanks Bob,


But all that post does is tell a simple minded dumb person like me the place has been doomed for a long time , its been death by 1000 cuts instead of a major heart attack.


I would quite happily tell the tax man to divert all my tax to save the place, but sadly I cant do that and those on welfare and all the other places where my tax $$ go wouldn't be happy.


Its a double edge sword, look at the employment that mining create during the GFC , if we didn't have that then where about s would we be ? I don't know as that's not my field, but I can guess. I wonder if the government during the resources boom had the foresight to realise that we were feeding the animal that was going to try and eat us to keep itself alive, I doubt it. keep digging holes and ship it out , keep the $$$ rolling into the coffers so we can waste it elsewhere.


The current management / board has to be held to account , they would have known they were in a troubled market , your post says so. Take the money , do the job , accept the consequences.


Don't get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is us ( Australia ) loose more key industries , but lets sort out the core problem first , before we just throw money at it to band aid the issue.


Cheers Ean

And the core problem is?

[Ean Austral]

And the core problem is?



Its not something I know much of , but there seems to have been plenty of suggestions so far.


What really caused Arium to be where it is would be a good start.


Cheers Ean

[bob10]

Its not something I know much of , but there seems to have been plenty of suggestions so far.


What really caused Arium to be where it is would be a good start.


Cheers Ean

I think it is safe to say, not one person here knows . It would be brilliant for Australian mainstream media to cut to the chase, and dig deep , in some real investigative journalism, but we know that is never going to happen. How long before your industry is ripped apart by super trawlers?

[Ean Austral]

I think it is safe to say, not one person here knows . It would be brilliant for Australian mainstream media to cut to the chase, and dig deep , in some real investigative journalism, but we know that is never going to happen. How long before your industry is ripped apart by super trawlers?


With all the pain we went thru to restructure the industry, we put in rules that capped the license's so I wont say in couldn't happen, but they would need to take out existing operators to get them in and the type of trawl we use you become in-efficient once your nets get to a certain size, add that to the time restrictions we have its a very slim possibility, but not impossible..
We have 2 types of license - B is the boat - there are only 51 of these - A- is the gear able to be used in net size , 1 A = 8cm of net , this number is also capped , so a super trawler would only need 1 B license but heaps of A units to go with it , so to stop it from happening we also imposed that every B license needs a minimum of 100 A units at all times or it gets surrendered , so you would need to take out several operators to put in a super trawler.


Funnily there was a Russian factory ship that tried to do it in the late 70"s but its costs outweighed its returns.

We are looking at the option of building new vessels but the returns are not there, so we keep upgrading the one's we have . Might have to go visit the ex shipyard in Whyalla , sounds like they will have plenty of steel available. :p:p


Cheers Ean

[frantic]

Thanks for that bob:D
I've worked and unloaded the iron carpentairia and the iron chieftain still comes here. We also used to watch the roro iron monarch go past but Bsl cut that.
The iron chieftain was a perfect example of quality defeated by cheap quantity, after 30 years the floors where still pretty good, access was very good except for hatch 1 and it was the best handy size to unload. We could on a 45,000 ton load grab out all except about 500 tons for a quick same cargo turnaround voyage, this was over 7 hatches. Most of the new handies have more than that left as a minimum in each hatch by their poorer design.
But back on topic, why has BSL bought their partner out in their USA steel business? Would it be no imports to swamp the market?
Unfortunately Arrium spent at the top of the cycle and are now laden with debt which their mining division cannot cover and their steel making is only break even at best.
Now if we followed the USA or Brazil and put hefty tarrifs on dumped steel Arrium may have reported a paper loss but would be covered by local demand.
One thing though is at least our pm has visited Whyalla. I won't comment on the number of times he's driven past the Illawarra to Canberra with not even a wave.:censored: because that's political.

[bob10]

Thanks for that bob:D
I've worked and unloaded the iron carpentairia and the iron chieftain still comes here. We also used to watch the roro iron monarch go past but Bsl cut that.
The iron chieftain was a perfect example of quality defeated by cheap quantity, after 30 years the floors where still pretty good, access was very good except for hatch 1 and it was the best handy size to unload. We could on a 45,000 ton load grab out all except about 500 tons for a quick same cargo turnaround voyage, this was over 7 hatches. Most of the new handies have more than that left as a minimum in each hatch by their poorer design.
But back on topic, why has BSL bought their partner out in their USA steel business? Would it be no imports to swamp the market?
Unfortunately Arrium spent at the top of the cycle and are now laden with debt which their mining division cannot cover and their steel making is only break even at best.
Now if we followed the USA or Brazil and put hefty tarrifs on dumped steel Arrium may have reported a paper loss but would be covered by local demand.
One thing though is at least our pm has visited Whyalla. I won't comment on the number of times he's driven past the Illawarra to Canberra with not even a wave.:censored: because that's political.
Thanks mate. It's amazing what an election does, hey. I guess a lot depends on whether it is a core value promise, or non core value promise. Either way this country is going down the gurgler.

[bob10]

With all the pain we went thru to restructure the industry, we put in rules that capped the license's so I wont say in couldn't happen, but they would need to take out existing operators to get them in and the type of trawl we use you become in-efficient once your nets get to a certain size, add that to the time restrictions we have its a very slim possibility, but not impossible..
We have 2 types of license - B is the boat - there are only 51 of these - A- is the gear able to be used in net size , 1 A = 8cm of net , this number is also capped , so a super trawler would only need 1 B license but heaps of A units to go with it , so to stop it from happening we also imposed that every B license needs a minimum of 100 A units at all times or it gets surrendered , so you would need to take out several operators to put in a super trawler.


Funnily there was a Russian factory ship that tried to do it in the late 70"s but its costs outweighed its returns.

We are looking at the option of building new vessels but the returns are not there, so we keep upgrading the one's we have . Might have to go visit the ex shipyard in Whyalla , sounds like they will have plenty of steel available. :p:p


Cheers Ean

Funny you should say that, how good would it be for government to subsidise Whyalla to provide steel to manufacture new design trawlers for the Aussie fishing industry, built by small Aussie shipyards, and provide low interest loans for the fishermen. Win, win,win, but, none of the usual suspects would make a motza out of it, so that probably wont happen.

[Pickles2]

Thanks Bob,


But all that post does is tell a simple minded dumb person like me the place has been doomed for a long time , its been death by 1000 cuts instead of a major heart attack.


I would quite happily tell the tax man to divert all my tax to save the place, but sadly I cant do that and those on welfare and all the other places where my tax $$ go wouldn't be happy.


Its a double edge sword, look at the employment that mining create during the GFC , if we didn't have that then where about s would we be ? I don't know as that's not my field, but I can guess. I wonder if the government during the resources boom had the foresight to realise that we were feeding the animal that was going to try and eat us to keep itself alive, I doubt it. keep digging holes and ship it out , keep the $$$ rolling into the coffers so we can waste it elsewhere.


The current management / board has to be held to account , they would have known they were in a troubled market , your post says so. Take the money , do the job , accept the consequences.


Don't get me wrong, the last thing I want to see is us ( Australia ) loose more key industries , but lets sort out the core problem first , before we just throw money at it to band aid the issue.


Cheers Ean
EXACTLY,...FULL STOP...a realist at last.
Lots of waffle on here.....from the usual suspects,.....excluding you Frantic, because I know, from previous discussions, where you are coming from, (not that I agree with you & vice versa,....but I know that you do "care").
Like I said, don't confine your thoughts to Arium,...don't do that, because the issue here is a systemic problem for Aussie,.....EVERYWHERE.
Think, "UNSUSTAINABLE". In addition to this statement of MINE, which many of you will not agree with, and I KNOW that nothing that I could say will change your minds, I give you the following challenge. Just write todays date down, and remember what the conditions were, & when this lunatic (in your minds, I get that) (ME) said that we were going downhill. Diarize it, & see if there was any truth in what I prophesied,...I dare you.
Today is the day that is the best that it will ever be,...we are all downhill from here.
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

Funny you should say that, how good would it be for government to subsidise Whyalla to provide steel to manufacture new design trawlers for the Aussie fishing industry, built by small Aussie shipyards, and provide low interest loans for the fishermen. Win, win,win, but, none of the usual suspects would make a motza out of it, so that probably wont happen.


It used to be that way funnily enough, you got a government subsidy which was enough to get you started and the shipyard also got a subsidy as well , but the keating government put a stop to it.


I am sure if it was re-introduced there would be a few take it up.


Cheers Ean

[Ferret]

What really caused Arium to be where it is would be a good start.


I think it is safe to say, not one person here knows . It would be brilliant for Australian mainstream media to cut to the chase, and dig deep , in some real investigative journalism, but we know that is never going to happen.

There is a series of article in the Fin. Review which outlines some of what is thought to be known about how Arrium ended up where it is.

Big banks 'bully' Arrium to appoint administrator McGrathNicol (http://www.afr.com/business/manufacturing/big-banks-bully-arrium-to-appoint-administrator-mcgarth-nichol-20160405-gnyoda)

Arrium defiant as it surrenders to creditors (http://www.afr.com/business/manufacturing/arrium-defiant-as-it-surrenders-to-creditors-20160407-go0omy)

Arrium hit by ANZ credit freeze (http://www.afr.com/business/manufacturing/arrium-hit-by-anz-credit-freeze-20160408-go20rm)

[incisor]

anz again

losing count of the number of business people i come across that have been done over by them.

mate lost his business because of them last year without warning or good reason it seems

he is going them legally and has some big names backing him he tells me but cant divulge who as yet.

bring on that royal commission and i hope they include administrators in the mix as well.

[Pickles2]

anz again

losing count of the number of business people i come across that have been done over by them.

mate lost his business because of them last year without warning or good reason it seems

he is going them legally and has some big names backing him he tells me but cant divulge who as yet.

bring on that royal commission and i hope they include administrators in the mix as well.
ANZ?
Dave, GET REAL.
This "problem" has NOTHING to do with "ANZ".....the issue is far far bigger than that, far bigger than "ANZ".
If it has, please tell me why, & also, why "ANZ" is the cause of Arium's current issues?...and please be SPECIFIC with respect to "ANZ".
Pickles.

[incisor]

ANZ?
Dave, GET REAL.
This "problem" has NOTHING to do with "ANZ".....the issue is far far bigger than that, far bigger than "ANZ".
If it has, please tell me why, & also, why "ANZ" is the cause of Arium's current issues?...and please be SPECIFIC with respect to "ANZ".
Pickles.

get real yourself

the article above my comments mentions what anz did, go read it

i didn't say this problem was caused by anz how the hell do you draw that conclusion from what i said?

i mentioned what happened to my mate and it was definitely anz and now they are getting done for bringing in administrators without due cause it seems

i read a few lnp members want the inquiry into them to proceed as well over their behavior in the cattle industry.

geezus..

[Pickles2]

get real yourself

the article above my comments mentions what anz did, go read it

i didn't say this problem was caused by anz how the hell do you draw that conclusion from what i said?

i mentioned what happened to my mate and it was definitely anz and now they are getting done for bringing in administrators without due cause it seems

i read a few lnp members want the inquiry into them to proceed as well over their behavior in the cattle industry.

geezus..
Nope,...RUBBISH.
Put up the link to "ANZ", & I'll respond. This issue is systemic, and has nothing to do with ANZ, or any other bank, in terms of normal lending business practices,...of course if you are one who always wants to blame "THE BANKS", well go for it. I can remember not so long ago when people like Keating, & VERY recently Wayne Swan commented on the STRENGTH of our FOUR PILLARS, (our banks), & how their strength had enabled the survival of our financial/economic system, in the face of the GFC, and was one of the reasons why we withstood the GFC. Do you remember?
Just give me the link to "ANZ" & I'll respond, ...with FACTS,...relative to blame attributable to ANZ with respect to the position Arium finds itself in.
Pickles.

[bob10]

EXACTLY,...FULL STOP...a realist at last.
Lots of waffle on here.....from the usual suspects,.....excluding you Frantic, because I know, from previous discussions, where you are coming from, (not that I agree with you & vice versa,....but I know that you do "care").
Like I said, don't confine your thoughts to Arium,...don't do that, because the issue here is a systemic problem for Aussie,.....EVERYWHERE.
Think, "UNSUSTAINABLE". In addition to this statement of MINE, which many of you will not agree with, and I KNOW that nothing that I could say will change your minds, I give you the following challenge. Just write todays date down, and remember what the conditions were, & when this lunatic (in your minds, I get that) (ME) said that we were going downhill. Diarize it, & see if there was any truth in what I prophesied,...I dare you.
Today is the day that is the best that it will ever be,...we are all downhill from here.
Pickles.

You are quite welcome to come back when you have something positive to say. Otherwise, please keep your doomsday thoughts to yourself. No offence meant. I'm sure there are plenty of members on General Chat who will share your views. Just not here, please.

[Pickles2]

You are quite welcome to come back when you have something positive to say. Otherwise, please keep your doomsday thoughts to yourself. No offence meant. I'm sure there are plenty of members on General Chat who will share your views. Just not here, please.
Bob,....Positive thoughts?.....Love to hear 'em. If you've got some, feel free to tell me how ANYONE can have positive thoughts with respect to Arium. IF YOU HAVE THEM, feel free to advise me, and make me feel good. I will await your "good news" so that I can be more positive.
For your info, I'm a self funded retiree, not rich (like Shorten would like to say), just a normal RESPONSIBLE person who has decided to look after himself & his family (from a very young age) without relying upon welfare, with respect to which I have never received ANYTHING.
I have bought a few shares, including BHP, to rely upon dividend for my income,...so that I don't have to rely upon welfare (Pension, if you don't understand) Dividend from BHP dropped by 75% this time, which means that I just may have to resort to claiming the pension. Is that good?...I don't think so,....Even more pressure on the system. I'll leave you to tell me whose fault that is. I await your response with very great interest.
Pickles.

[incisor]

Nope,...RUBBISH.
Put up the link to "ANZ", & I'll respond. This issue is systemic, and has nothing to do with ANZ, or any other bank, in terms of normal lending business practices,...of course if you are one who always wants to blame "THE BANKS", well go for it. I can remember not so long ago when people like Keating, & VERY recently Wayne Swan commented on the STRENGTH of our FOUR PILLARS, (our banks), & how their strength had enabled the survival of our financial/economic system, in the face of the GFC, and was one of the reasons why we withstood the GFC. Do you remember?
Just give me the link to "ANZ" & I'll respond, ...with FACTS,...relative to blame attributable to ANZ with respect to the position Arium finds itself in.
Pickles.

if you cant click on the link containing the words "anz" in the post before my comments and read them then you need to stop and have a little think.

no where did i say anz or the banks were to blame for the arrium mess

i am happy to say the anz taint helping much and it appears the other banks agree with me going by that article

enjoy your night.

[Pickles2]

if you cant click on the link containing the words "anz" in the post before my comments and read them then you need to stop and have a little think.

no where did i say anz or the banks were to blame for the arrium mess

i am happy to say the anz taint helping much and it appears the other banks agree with me going by that article

enjoy your night.
OK Dave. I understand that. Let me also say that my comment "RUBBISH" was inappropriate, it is your opinion, to which you are entitled.
I'll just say this. I worked in the Financial Sector for my whole working career, & I've seen literally thousands, maybe more, lending applications, and I've also seen almost as many "failed" Applications, ie, loans that have "gone bad".
Let me say this, NOBODY lends money if they don't think it's a sensible deal for a sensible practical purpose etc. That would be silly. Nor do Banks want to "foreclose", "call up" loans etc, unless they absolutely have to, because when they do that, they almost always "do their dough" with very little hope of recovering it.
And, there is also a limit that the bank, any bank, has to apply to any loan, and if that loan is not "performing", then there can be no further loans.
The Bank doesn't run any of these businesses, that is up to the company directors/board etc who make, hopefully, the correct decisions, so that the company is properly & profitably run as described in the loan application to the Bank, and it is also their responsibility to make proper use of those funds. And if those decisions/operations, or whatever cause the company to fail, then it is certainly not the fault of the Bank.
Anyway, I hope what I've said makes a little sense, if there's any questions, I'd be pleased to discuss.
And Bob, "Positive"?...Yes, I'd love to be positive, love to be. But like I've said, the Arium issue is, IMHO, the tip of the iceberg. I believe we are in for VERY hard times ahead. Very hard,...pleased to discuss that too. There are more & more demands upon the economy, the deficit is growing rapidly every day. Interest rates are at an all time low. Now with the deficit increasing, what will it be in a few years, I hate to think, & if interest rates go up to somewhere near normal, say 7 or 8%, how will we repay the debt, & what effect will that have on the economy, and,....You & I? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, so,..... I'd welcome some "positive" comments from you, which may "relieve my anguish"?
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

And so it goes on.
Today the Electrolux plant in NSW is closing. There were originally 1850 people employed here, but now, only 300, who will be losing their jobs.
Manufacture of the product will continue,...Guess where,.....in Thailand. Another one,....going off shore. I'll leave the answer as to the reason why for others to answer.
Like I said, "Tip Of The Iceberg"?
Pickles.

[PhilipA]

I have been watching this thread, as I recall several days ago that an Arrium employee claimed that wages were not that high and most earned $95K.
Now at the time i thought gee $95 K would be pretty good in a small town like Whyalla where houses should only be say 300K. ( unless of course it is like Karratha where houses were outrageous due to capapcity to pay)

So today in the Australian I read an Article by Robert Gottliebson which states the following.
QUOTE
Here some of the clauses that locked Arrium into administration in the event that the prices for its products fell:
? Wages levels are way above the award. An entry-level trade person begins at $120,476 and a level-5 tradie is on $160,631, with another increase to $165,450 due in March 2017. Production workers entry-level wage begins at $95,783 and tops out at $130,188.
Then there are the clauses that crippled flexibility and reduced management control:
? Union delegates are entitled to 10 days paid union training leave per year and afforded paid time, to ?interview a representative of the company on matters affecting employees?. This gives the union enormous power.
? Union notice boards are provided and the company cannot remove union notices unless special conditions apply.
? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.
? If an employee with at least two years? service is declassified to a lower pay scale, not only do they stay on their old pay rate, but also the pay rate keeps rising in line with the rises due to the old rate for another two years.
? In the event the mine closes, redundancy pay is 4 weeks per year capped at 104 weeks.
? Where a redundancy is caused by innovation or mechanisation or new technology, the company must add an extra 3 months? notice or pay, on top of the two years.
? Arrium staff with a long-term, non-work related illness, for the purpose of ?added financial security?, are able to 'reasonably expect continued financial support? at their normal rates of pay for up to 12 months, and longer if they are expected to return shortly to the workplace.
QUOTE
The article also states that the banks suffered from "Groupthink" that made them make the stupid decision to loan billions to the company unsecured.

So should the rest of Australia support a company where the unions greed and spineless management has contributed greatly to its own demise?
Regards Philip A

[Ean Austral]

I have been watching this thread, as I recall several days ago that an Arrium employee claimed that wages were not that high and most earned $95K.
Now at the time i thought gee $95 K would be pretty good in a small town like Whyalla where houses should only be say 300K. ( unless of course it is like Karratha where houses were outrageous due to capapcity to pay)

So today in the Australian I read an Article by Robert Gottliebson which states the following.
QUOTE
Here some of the clauses that locked Arrium into administration in the event that the prices for its products fell:
? Wages levels are way above the award. An entry-level trade person begins at $120,476 and a level-5 tradie is on $160,631, with another increase to $165,450 due in March 2017. Production workers entry-level wage begins at $95,783 and tops out at $130,188.
Then there are the clauses that crippled flexibility and reduced management control:
? Union delegates are entitled to 10 days paid union training leave per year and afforded paid time, to ?interview a representative of the company on matters affecting employees?. This gives the union enormous power.
? Union notice boards are provided and the company cannot remove union notices unless special conditions apply.
? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.
? If an employee with at least two years? service is declassified to a lower pay scale, not only do they stay on their old pay rate, but also the pay rate keeps rising in line with the rises due to the old rate for another two years.
? In the event the mine closes, redundancy pay is 4 weeks per year capped at 104 weeks.
? Where a redundancy is caused by innovation or mechanisation or new technology, the company must add an extra 3 months? notice or pay, on top of the two years.
? Arrium staff with a long-term, non-work related illness, for the purpose of ?added financial security?, are able to 'reasonably expect continued financial support? at their normal rates of pay for up to 12 months, and longer if they are expected to return shortly to the workplace.
QUOTE
The article also states that the banks suffered from "Groupthink" that made them make the stupid decision to loan billions to the company unsecured.

So should the rest of Australia support a company where the unions greed and spineless management has contributed greatly to its own demise?
Regards Philip A


I have been wondering how long it would take for this sort of article to come out. I wonder what the union / Arium reply will be.


As I said in most of my posts, lets sort out the core issue before having an open cheque book response.


What a shame the management / boards entitle's / package deal wasn't included.


Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.

this is quote common. company i work for has this condition



? In the event the mine closes, redundancy pay is 4 weeks per year capped at 104 weeks.

again, this is quote common. company i work for also has this condition


? Arrium staff with a long-term, non-work related illness, for the purpose of ?added financial security?, are able to 'reasonably expect continued financial support? at their normal rates of pay for up to 12 months, and longer if they are expected to return shortly to the workplace.


i'm pretty sure i have this condition too

[Pickles2]

PhilipA,....Brilliant post mate.
The problem is no-one wants to listen, but those are the same reasons why many companies have failed in Aus.
There is no way, that anyone is going to refinance anyone with that sort of "load" hanging around its neck.
A "Reality Check" is needed here, because, & I'll use a word that I've used MANY times,.... those figures are "UNSUSTAINABLE"....and it ain't just Arrium,...those sorts of "rorts" would be in the go in many companies......which is part of "Aussie's" problem. And, before the "flaming" starts, I know it ain't the whole problem, bad management, antiquated machinery, low commodity prices etc have all contributed.
And another issue that I saw on Facebook yesterday, Electricity costs are a large part of Arrium's costs,.....guess what, the cost of their electricity is FOURTH HIGHEST in the World!!...It all adds up.
Pickles.

[Tombie]

I have been watching this thread, as I recall several days ago that an Arrium employee claimed that wages were not that high and most earned $95K.
Now at the time i thought gee $95 K would be pretty good in a small town like Whyalla where houses should only be say 300K. ( unless of course it is like Karratha where houses were outrageous due to capapcity to pay)

So today in the Australian I read an Article by Robert Gottliebson which states the following.
QUOTE
Here some of the clauses that locked Arrium into administration in the event that the prices for its products fell:
? Wages levels are way above the award. An entry-level trade person begins at $120,476 and a level-5 tradie is on $160,631, with another increase to $165,450 due in March 2017. Production workers entry-level wage begins at $95,783 and tops out at $130,188.
Then there are the clauses that crippled flexibility and reduced management control:
? Union delegates are entitled to 10 days paid union training leave per year and afforded paid time, to ?interview a representative of the company on matters affecting employees?. This gives the union enormous power.
? Union notice boards are provided and the company cannot remove union notices unless special conditions apply.
? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.
? If an employee with at least two years? service is declassified to a lower pay scale, not only do they stay on their old pay rate, but also the pay rate keeps rising in line with the rises due to the old rate for another two years.
? In the event the mine closes, redundancy pay is 4 weeks per year capped at 104 weeks.
? Where a redundancy is caused by innovation or mechanisation or new technology, the company must add an extra 3 months? notice or pay, on top of the two years.
? Arrium staff with a long-term, non-work related illness, for the purpose of ?added financial security?, are able to 'reasonably expect continued financial support? at their normal rates of pay for up to 12 months, and longer if they are expected to return shortly to the workplace.
QUOTE
The article also states that the banks suffered from "Groupthink" that made them make the stupid decision to loan billions to the company unsecured.

So should the rest of Australia support a company where the unions greed and spineless management has contributed greatly to its own demise?
Regards Philip A

I've been very quiet reading this thread and have very little to say about it.

However, that media article is not the most accurate.

Green Inking - Yes
Staff (not wages) and theres only ~250 staff - Get Illness support however, if unable to RTW are released as TPI.

The wages quoted... Only was ever achieved with HUGE amounts of OT - of which there is none/very little...


Aside from 3-4 people in this thread - most of you have no real idea of the impacts, the reason the company is where it is at the moment, or consequences of closing it.

And I am the most recent to leave the company - redundancy as of 1st April...

[Ferret]

And I am the most recent to leave the company - redundancy as of 1st April...

Sorry to hear that.

[PhilipA]

? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.


this is quote common. company i work for has this condition



? In the event the mine closes, redundancy pay is 4 weeks per year capped at 104 weeks.

again, this is quote common. company i work for also has this condition


? Arrium staff with a long-term, non-work related illness, for the purpose of ?added financial security?, are able to 'reasonably expect continued financial support? at their normal rates of pay for up to 12 months, and longer if they are expected to return shortly to the workplace.

Eevo you are indeed blessed.

To compare, when I was in the NSW government the conditions were.

Maximum of 52 weeks retrenchment . This applies to Feds also.

If there was a "spill" you had to apply for your old job and if you missed out you went onto the lower pay classification of the job you were assigned.

Sick leave AFAIR 2 weeks at full pay plus 2 weeks half pay.

Your conditions are one of the major problems with Australia and why we are priced out of many markets. Enjoy while you can.
Regards Philip A

[Eevo]

Eevo you are indeed blessed.


Sick leave AFAIR 2 weeks at full pay plus 2 weeks half pay.

Your conditions are one of the major problems with Australia and why we are priced out of many markets. Enjoy while you can.
Regards Philip A

blessed maybe. we work hard for it and our company make a profit. we have to remain competitive from a technical perspective.

every 24-36 months there is a reorg and usually 10 jobs go down to 9 or 8 jobs and we have to reapply.
if unsuccessful you can try and find another role in the company (which the company prefers) or take a package.


we get 15 days.
people in NZ get 5.


as much as i enjoy these conditions and work hard for them, i do agree.

[PhilipA]

BTW to see the executive remuneration for Arrium .
Google Arrium 2015 Annual Report .
This will be a PDF and to save your eyes I found it on page 35 of the Pdf.
The MD gets 1.4 Mill.
But the non exec directors seem to be well overpaid seeing the outcome at 173K for a few meetings a year, although they are liable if found to be trading while insolvent. That's why they called in a voluntary administrator.
Regards Philip A

[Pickles2]

Don't care what "excuses" anyone wants to hear,....We are TOO DEAR,....we cannot compete on World competivity,....and we will NEVER be able to do so, unless we realize that that the conditions that we think are "our right" in Aussie, are not "our right", but in today's reality, are a recipe for disaster,and if we continue to pursue such, which I have said many many times, will be proven as "UNSUSTAINABLE", but like I've said before, no-one wants to listen,.....but,.....maybe,......now,......as the chickens are coming home to roost,.......maybe someone will,.......before it's too late?.....But I don't think so. So,BE AFRAID.
Pickles.
Don't just be afraid, be VERY AFRAID, because what you are seeing now is just, "the beginning",.......it's about to get much worse, VERY much worse. Remember you rubbished me, for sure, BUT, remember,I said it.

[Tombie]

Sorry to hear that.



Thank you...

It's a surreal environment here in Whyalla at the moment.

The entire city is united and are working to understand what the outcomes of "what happens next".

I'm comfortable with being made redundant - my role was "fully loaded" and I was unable to take any more work flow on. However, my role was able to be 'split up' and distributed amongst 4 other positions which had ability to broaden their scope.

These things happen! And as a home owner in town anything that can contribute to the success of restructuring and ongoing trading can only help.

The company is viable, if managed correctly and especially once its debt overhead is reduced.


Once people understand the specialised work Steel workers do, the risks faced and the knowledge required they can appreciate it more..

It's much more than "driving a truck", "pressing a button" or "pulling a lever".

The quality of products produced in Whyalla are second to none.

The mining side has done an amazing amount of work on cost per tonne reduction recently and are currently cash positive...

It's just that damn debt hanging over the company...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/04/582.jpg

[Tombie]

? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.

Regards Philip A


Those people move to other roles and their former position is made redundant. Reducing the manning level by one.

That is where it saves money.

[Tombie]

As has been said many times... As a generalisation:

People want great wages, but refuse to buy local from people who want great wages.

We buy clothing from "Target/Big W" and buy cheap.

We go for the lowest price at the expense of the Aussie product and the economic benefits.

We support Duopolies rather than independents.

We buy cheap imports over quality local products - Sidchrome is a prime example.
People spend a fortune on "Snap Off" but wouldn't support an Aussie product so they went overseas.

***this is separate to price gouging***

[stewie110]

Pickles , your a numbers man so simply put the extra cost of buying local steel would be far far less than the loss of income tax from Whyalla Arrium employees alone.
Ean, one steel/ Arrium would be open still if all state govts bought Canada style ( nsw just bought several BILLION dollars of rail but not local).
Also my house , building at the moment is built with an Aussie steel frame and roof was same price as a timber competitors same size so false ean.
I'm sorry but if Arrium close where do you get rail and rope from of similar quality. We went down the accounts driven path of trying imported " same grade" rope years ago. That lasted a very short time as it was such bad quality that it threatened our lives and we insisted on going back to one steel rope.
You will also be in the situation of having only foreign suppliers so what you get is all you get at their price.
Yes they may have made a bad decision on assets purchases a few years ago but if they where based in India, South Africa, Canada , USA ,Brazil or Germany they would have their domestic market protections in place.
My experience of imported steel is limited. However I can say that the limited but I do have is
1. The same grade was not the same grade.
2. The actual same grade was similar in price.
I have almost no knowledge of steel however structural engineers had to test it and found that it was a poor substitute for the local grade.

The other point is that many of the cheaper nations products are heavily subsidised either by backhanded grants, official subsidies, massive tax concessions, free or at a loss shipping etc.

While I am a firm believer that there is no such thing as a level playing field in business it's important to note that it's also nearly at a right angle against Australia

[Eevo]

The company is viable, if managed correctly and especially once its debt overhead is reduced.

It's just that damn debt hanging over the company...


can i ask how all this debt piled up and how long ago with the debt build up start?

[AndyG]

Management bought assets at the top of the cycle, thinking the mining boom would go on forever, that's a broad generalisation

[Ean Austral]

As has been said many times... As a generalisation:

People want great wages, but refuse to buy local from people who want great wages.

We buy clothing from "Target/Big W" and buy cheap.

We go for the lowest price at the expense of the Aussie product and the economic benefits.

We support Duopolies rather than independents.

We buy cheap imports over quality local products - Sidchrome is a prime example.
People spend a fortune on "Snap Off" but wouldn't support an Aussie product so they went overseas.

***this is separate to price gouging***


Gday Tombie,


Sorry to hear of the redundancy , I hope, like I am sure we all do, that the road ahead is not a rocky one.


I think your above post is the issue that is facing and has faced most, if not all Australian businesses.


There is no excuse for any side of the Australian government, federal or state not to support Australian made products no matter what that product is. We cant change the past , but it should be standard practice from now on.


How do we change the mindset of the general population ? , well a true , hard hitting add campaign on what NOT buying Australian really does to the country and the people in it may be a start.


I have said it before, my industry has battled for 6 years that I know of to get Country of origin seafood labelling laws as standard in Australia, and we still haven't achieved it , The NT implemented with no issue many years ago but no one else even looked at it , so really what chance do we have of changing how the political parties think.


Cheers Ean

[incisor]

It's the mindset of most levels of government that need changing as well ean

[Ean Austral]

It's the mindset of most levels of government that need changing as well ean


I agree totally , our past governments and its seems the present has held the belief that "We need our trading partners and cannot upset them in any way" and sadly it seems that they will do this to the detrement of Australian business and its products. When you meet with ministers and their advisers this is 1 of the consistent things you hear no matter which side is in power - I have heard it with my own ears ..


We are a nation of not many and we rely on our trading partners to survive is the sentence that stands out.


I always think of Dick Smith ( whether you like him or not is irrelavent ) - he tried to get people to support local foods and in the end he gave up because not many would pay a bit extra for local quality food.


That was the writing on the wall for me


Cheers Ean

[strangy]

I've been very quiet reading this thread and have very little to say about it. However, that media article is not the most accurate. Green Inking - Yes Staff (not wages) and theres only ~250 staff - Get Illness support however, if unable to RTW are released as TPI. The wages quoted... Only was ever achieved with HUGE amounts of OT - of which there is none/very little... Aside from 3-4 people in this thread - most of you have no real idea of the impacts, the reason the company is where it is at the moment, or consequences of closing it. And I am the most recent to leave the company - redundancy as of 1st April...
I was wondering when/if you would say something.
I suspected something as much. Media seldom present a full story and regularly bias facts (agendas driven from the background?)

Frustration as others discuss the perceived anatomy of your livelihood as it is dying must be immense.
My thoughts are with you, family and workmates.
I have a good idea what significant changes and difficult choices you will likely have ahead.
Helpless words in these circumstances I know, yet you at least need to know others care.

Thanks for your input.

[Tombie]

Thanks mate.
We currently have a foot in both camps.
My wife is still working for the company.

Interesting times for sure.

[frantic]

? If the company restructures, and people are put into lower paying jobs, their old rate of pay is maintained forever, which cancels out the whole point of the exercise.


Eevo you are indeed blessed.

To compare, when I was in the NSW government the conditions were.

Maximum of 52 weeks retrenchment . This applies to Feds also.

If there was a "spill" you had to apply for your old job and if you missed out you went onto the lower pay classification of the job you were assigned.

Sick leave AFAIR 2 weeks at full pay plus 2 weeks half pay.

Your conditions are one of the major problems with Australia and why we are priced out of many markets. Enjoy while you can.
Regards Philip A
Actually if you get 52 weeks redundancy as a 5 day a week public servant it's virtually the same as a shift worker getting 104. See if you bother to look deeper than the headline a shift worker is paid out at their BASE wage which is about half their full time wage.
Secondly the sick leave scheme your talking about is called discretionary, this means if an employee does the right thing and only takes the occasional genuine sick day gets a major illness , they will give them time off at full pay, but will also be deducting days from their total accumulated over service and possibly be putting them into negative as well. But being at the managers discretion you can also get the abuser who used all their sickies every year who needs an operation or has a major illness where the manager turns around and says use all your hols and long service and we might cover the last few weeks!
You've stated people earning up to $160,000 , to do that they would be living at work doing lots of overtime, callouts and double shifts.
Pay freezing is a bhp caryover, it's called green inking. The way it used to work was if a person got forced to move to a lower paid job his pay was frozen until he trained up to an equally paid level or the depts pay caught up.
See in most areas there are numerous levels of training so if you shut one section through new tech or shutting a section you might have people who have trained for years to get to level 5 and are then put in a new area where it will take them 2-5 years to get to the same pay/ skill level. Now it's not their fault you decided to shut dept x and will pick up the new area skills faster than most outsiders, so it's not a major loss to freeze their pay for a period.
As to pricing ourselves out , are you ignoring the facts that labour is 5% of the cost in steel making ?
How about ignoring the costs to us the taxpayer if they shut shop and leave 7,000 unemployed , not paying any tax and drawing welfare?
The cost to the government of buying local at all levels is about 10% of the costs to them if Arrium shuts. Yet still we could all protect our constituents like certain people when asked about a govt buy local campaign:
But Mr Pyne told a KPMG lunch in Adelaide on Monday that was a 'mad idea? which would result in the creation of a 'monopoly??.
Interesting article
No Cookies | The Advertiser (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/nothing-to-stop-compulsory-use-of-australian-steel-in-public-infrastructure-projects-says-expert-john-spoehr/news-story/d08a3586d50c755b8fce512398e9929d)

[PhilipA]

Actually Frantic I didn't say any of that . It was a quote from the Australian in an article by Gottliebson..

The only part I said was the conditions in the public service.

But really the conditions enjoyed by the workers are even greater when you consider 4 weeks annual leave and 17% loading compared to say 2 weeks leave and no loading in the USA.

It is hard to compete with Chinese who probably are paid $10 a day and the some/most of the mills are modern .

But many of the problems in the steel industry were caused by government inaction to hold down the exchange rate when the iron ore export "enclave" boosted the currency to absurd levels.

Regards Philip A

[frantic]

Actually Frantic I didn't say any of that . It was a quote from the Australian in an article by Gottliebson..

The only part I said was the conditions in the public service.

But really the conditions enjoyed by the workers are even greater when you consider 4 weeks annual leave and 17% loading compared to say 2 weeks leave and no loading in the USA.

It is hard to compete with Chinese who probably are paid $10 a day and the some/most of the mills are modern .

But many of the problems in the steel industry were caused by government inaction to hold down the exchange rate when the iron ore export "enclave" boosted the currency to absurd levels.

Regards Philip A
Your halfway there, pay rates in terms of the steel industry are a minor factor. 5%
The big issues as you said are govt not supporting local industry by various measures such as exchange rates, that China peg, export bonuses , that China give not us, write off debts to the tune of 25billion in 10 months by Chinese steel companies, pay for discount shipping, etc.
This results in price differences of about 15-20% and over 40% in some cases.

[Tombie]

Just for clarity.

Shift workers get 5 weeks annual leave (staff and wages)

Staff on fixed contract (like I was) get no loading for leave or public holiday work - nor overtime for any additional hours worked.

My wife is expected to attend all training and meetings on her days off or before / after her fostered hours with no additional pay.

[Eevo]

My wife is expected to attend all training and meetings on her days off or before / after her fostered hours with no additional pay.

i thought that was illegal.

[Tombie]

i thought that was illegal.



Staff are on "Commercial contracts" not EBA.

There is a reasonable hours policy although slightly ambiguous...

[Eevo]

.ignore

[bob10]

There is merit in this argument.This is not a political statement, something like this could save jobs.

‘Protectionism’ is no longer a dirty word | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/money/2016/04/15/protectionism-red-hot-issue-steel-industry/?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160416%20The%20New%20Daily%20(1)&utm_content=&spMailingID=25256772&spUserID=MTIxODgyNjMyMTEwS0&spJobID=782467775&spReportId=NzgyNDY3Nzc1S0)

[Mick_Marsh]

I will read it as you suggest, but when I read Thailand I always think are we comparing apples with apples. I wonder what the cost per car to build the same amount of cars in Australia would be with our labour costs, union rules etc etc would be.


I know nothing of the car industry , but let me give you some example of something I do know about.
I can and we do send 40 foot containers of prawns to Indonesia and Thailand to get processed into prawn meat and cutlets, BUT, we also do the same job in our Brisbane factory. So the cost including freight by sea to these countries and returned to east coast Australia is - Indonesia approx. $2 per kilo , Thailand $2.50 per kilo. Now to do the same job in our factory here is 5 times that and only if we work normal hours , its more if we do weekend or public holidays , and to my knowledge we are the only company left that still does this type of processing in Australia.


So whats my point , its that there may be several reasons why most car companies are now using these countries , because like us ( Australia ) they have most likely priced themselves out of business with high labour costs.


Just a thought.


Cheers EanHey, Ean, You've got the wrong business model.
Pulitzer Prize: Team that exposed slavery in Asian seafood industry wins top honour - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-19/team-that-exposed-slavery-in-asian-seafood-wins-pulitzer/7336610)


You need to increase your slave labour content in Australia.

[Ean Austral]

Hey, Ean, You've got the wrong business model.
Pulitzer Prize: Team that exposed slavery in Asian seafood industry wins top honour - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-19/team-that-exposed-slavery-in-asian-seafood-wins-pulitzer/7336610)


You need to increase your slave labour content in Australia.


Jeez Mick, if I work for much less I will have to start to give the company I work for some money back just to keep me employed.:p:p


Cheers Ean

[cuppabillytea]

Jeez Mick, if I work for much less I will have to start to give the company I work for some money back just to keep me employed.:p:p


Cheers Ean

That's the Maritime industry for you. Streets ahead in the race to the bottom. :wasntme:

[DiscoMick]

Your halfway there, pay rates in terms of the steel industry are a minor factor. 5%
The big issues as you said are govt not supporting local industry by various measures such as exchange rates, that China peg, export bonuses , that China give not us, write off debts to the tune of 25billion in 10 months by Chinese steel companies, pay for discount shipping, etc.
This results in price differences of about 15-20% and over 40% in some cases.
Don't forget cheap finance costs for Chinese government owned entities, which are an unfair advantage.
In Germany its free land and waived government charges which underpin their car industry.

[Ean Austral]

That's the Maritime industry for you. Streets ahead in the race to the bottom. :wasntme:


Led from the front by the MUA .


Cheers Ean

[Tombie]

We can't compare the car industry in Australia.

All manufacturers had indicated their intent to "pull out" of Australia in the shorter term.

Holden harassed the Government and received short term cash injection - and then designed the current Commodore platform and a global platform for the US market - a case of a cash strapped company (GM) using clever manipulation to fund ongoing development.

Ford had already announced its intent to cease in Australia.

Toyota then announced that it was becoming less viable to remain here, as did many suppliers to all 3 - as once they were down to single customer base it wasn't a viable model.

The bigger difference - Arrium - doesn't want to cease trading in Australia. It's just made some bad choices in prior years and chasing its tail.

My opinion - there is a fantastic opportunity for an investor if they're clever..

[frantic]

Led from the front by the MUA .


Cheers Ean
Unfortunately the MUA has been the main target of a certain side of govt, with the CFMEU occasionally taking the sights off them.
With the new changes to the rules for shipping, slave labour, (ok $2/hour is huge in ???), is becoming the norm rather than the exception.
MUA Seeks Reasons Behind Alcoa’s Temporary Licence | World Maritime News (http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/183457/mua-seeks-reasons-behind-alcoas-temporary-licence/)
Or hell just don't pay the crew at all.
http://bmuc.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/mua-third-alcoa-ship-arrives-owing.html

[Eevo]

We can't compare the car industry in Australia.


My opinion - there is a fantastic opportunity for an investor if they're clever..

i disagree
the car industry faced the same challenges hence why they pulled out

holden has the additional issue of GM stringing along the taxpayer, and not being allowed effectively export.


an investor will face the same issues. the market is the same, supply n demand hasnt changed, wages have not changed

what can a new investor do to sell more steel?

[Ean Austral]

Unfortunately the MUA has been the main target of a certain side of govt, with the CFMEU occasionally taking the sights off them.
With the new changes to the rules for shipping, slave labour, (ok $2/hour is huge in ???), is becoming the norm rather than the exception.
MUA Seeks Reasons Behind Alcoa's Temporary Licence | World Maritime News (http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/183457/mua-seeks-reasons-behind-alcoas-temporary-licence/)
Or hell just don't pay the crew at all.
Blue Mountains Union News: MUA: Third Alcoa Ship Arrives Owing Foreign Crew $190,000 (http://bmuc.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/mua-third-alcoa-ship-arrives-owing.html)


Sadly Frantic you and me wont see eye to eye on this topic , and I still am a paid up member of the MUA . I left a job because of the attitude of this union, they are an embarasment in my eye's.


As for a investor into Arium, most investors will just split the company, flog off the bad operating side of it and keep the core money earning side, whatever that part is. That usually just results in streamlining and job losses. The other side it could be a oversea's investor with usually a similar outcome.
The best chance is if they can trade their way out of trouble.. We can only hope.


Cheers Ean

[frantic]

Sadly Frantic you and me wont see eye to eye on this topic , and I still am a paid up member of the MUA . I left a job because of the attitude of this union, they are an embarasment in my eye's.


As for a investor into Arium, most investors will just split the company, flog off the bad operating side of it and keep the core money earning side, whatever that part is. That usually just results in streamlining and job losses. The other side it could be a oversea's investor with usually a similar outcome.
The best chance is if they can trade their way out of trouble.. We can only hope.


Cheers Ean
Thanks Ean, seriously would you mind PMing me what happened as in the past there are issues with union Reps etc.

[bob10]

Led from the front by the MUA .


Cheers Ean

I have experience of the MUA. My Uncle, and his son, were members of the MUA, on the Brisbane waterfront. I can't say much, except from the stories I heard, it was unionism by thuggery. Same as certain sections of the CFMEU. However, they do not represent the majority of unions in Aus. Thankfully. But the gangster element must be brought to account. Unions have an important role in our society, but they must be regulated, or they will become irrelevant.

On a totally different subject , a report I just read is the reason we must be vigilant our strategic industries are not controlled by foreign interests. As follows;

"Work on the U.K.'s Trident nuclear deterrent force may run into trouble following the mothballing of the Dalzell site' Indian owned Tata has announced it would be moth balling steel plate mills in Scunthorpe, Dalzell, & clydebridge as well as one of two coke ovens in Scunthorpe as part of its Europe steel Business. UK steel is the only mill in the country capable of producing the steel required for the UK's Trident submarine program, as swell as armour plating for a range of armoured vehicles used by the British Army. " There is more, but that's enough to make me stop & think.

[Tombie]

i disagree

the car industry faced the same challenges hence why they pulled out



holden has the additional issue of GM stringing along the taxpayer, and not being allowed effectively export.





an investor will face the same issues. the market is the same, supply n demand hasnt changed, wages have not changed



what can a new investor do to sell more steel?



Car manufacturers pulled out because head office had already decided a "return to manufacture at home" was more important than small markets.

The steel market, once it's not being dumped in is very stable.
Cost to manufacture is very competitive locally for a better quality product.

[Eevo]

The steel market, once it's not being dumped in is very stable.

just saw a news article
chinese still manufacturing at record level.

China says March steel output a record (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/breaking-news/major-steel-producers-fail-to-reach-deal/news-story/f8e71bee0993a2c154755263c8fbeae5)

[Eevo]

The steel market, once it's not being dumped in is very stable.

just saw a news article
chinese still manufacturing at record level.

China says March steel output a record (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/breaking-news/major-steel-producers-fail-to-reach-deal/news-story/f8e71bee0993a2c154755263c8fbeae5)

[Ferret]

... Tata has announced it would be moth balling steel plate mills in Scunthorpe, Dalzell, & clydebridge as well as one of two coke ovens in Scunthorpe as part of its Europe steel Business.

Similar problems there too - a world wide glut of Chinese steel. Though perhaps not the only problem in the UK steel industry, as with Australia, it sure doesn't help any. And while politicians here ague the wrongs and rights of tariff protection the Chinese seem to be somewhat more flexible about it.

April 2016 - Chinese government imposes tariff on EU steel imports (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/01/chinese-imposes-tariff-on-eu-steel-imports-tata)


China has risked raising tensions over its role in the UK steel crisis by imposing a 46% import duty on a type of high-tech steel made by Tata in Wales.

The Chinese government said it had slapped the tariff on ?grain-oriented electrical steel? imported from the European Union, South Korea and Japan. It justified the move by saying imports from abroad were causing substantial damage to its domestic steel industry.

Interesting times ahead in all matters regarding China.

[Pickles2]

Unfortunately the MUA has been the main target of a certain side of govt, with the CFMEU occasionally taking the sights off them.
With the new changes to the rules for shipping, slave labour, (ok $2/hour is huge in ???), is becoming the norm rather than the exception.
MUA Seeks Reasons Behind Alcoa's Temporary Licence | World Maritime News (http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/183457/mua-seeks-reasons-behind-alcoas-temporary-licence/)
Or hell just don't pay the crew at all.
Blue Mountains Union News: MUA: Third Alcoa Ship Arrives Owing Foreign Crew $190,000 (http://bmuc.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/mua-third-alcoa-ship-arrives-owing.html)
AAhh yes, the "M.U.A."!
I seem to remember the 1998 "Waterfront Dispute", where Mr Reith & Mr Patrick, were successful, as a result of this "infamous" dispute, in revealing some intersting waterfront "practises", which, shall we say, were not "World Standard".
I'm no expert, but Wikepedia has a very comprehensive of those issues, and the consequence of the dispute.
Pickles.
Of course, the issue that you refer to Frantic, is far removed from that. Just goes to show there's good & bad in everyone I guess.

[DiscoMick]

China wil protect its own steel industry in whatever way it considers necessary because it regards steel as an industry of national strategic significance. The USA and similar countries do the same. Economic theory is regarded as irrelevant in this, its all about national power.
The question is, does Australia want to maintain some economic independence or are we content to just act like a colony of other countries and a playground for foreign multinationals to exploit?
We are back to where we were after WWII when we started a local car industry partly for economic reasons to provide a market for the steel industry developed before and during the war. We have gone backwards in the last decade. It's time to start going forwards again.
We need to discriminate against the dumping of cheap foreign steel and we need to ensure there is a minimum market for quality locally produced steel. These things are in our national interest and we should make sure they happen. My opinion.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Eevo]

The question is, does Australia want to maintain some economic independence


are we large enough, developed enough or powerful enough to do this?
lets not kid ourself, we're an island nation of 25mil.

[incisor]

With too many zealots basing decisions on ideology instead of facts

[DiscoMick]

are we large enough, developed enough or powerful enough to do this?
lets not kid ourself, we're an island nation of 25mil.

We are, I think from memory, the 12th largest economy in the world and we punch well above our weight economically. We need to get over our inferiority complex, not let others push us around, stop thinking like a colony and stand up for ourselves, I reckon.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Pickles2]

We are, I think from memory, the 12th largest economy in the world and we punch well above our weight economically. We need to get over our inferiority complex, not let others push us around, stop thinking like a colony and stand up for ourselves, I reckon.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app
It ain't that easy,...you know it & I know it.
AND it ain't "Political". If it was, Labor would have done something about it, as would have the Libs,.....it ain't that easy, particularly if We're "up against" China, and if anyone thinks that China would go out of its way to make things easier for us, or assist us in any way, then I'll simply disagree.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

all the successful countries have ideology.
whats Australian ideology? she'll be right mate

[Ean Austral]

We are, I think from memory, the 12th largest economy in the world and we punch well above our weight economically. We need to get over our inferiority complex, not let others push us around, stop thinking like a colony and stand up for ourselves, I reckon.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app


Is that figure based on domestic economy only ?? I wouldn't think so , the only reason we are the 12 largest is the sheer volume we export , the same stuff that gets us to #12 is being reprocessed and sold back to us cheaper than what we produce it.


Our biggest problem is ourselves , its been said here before, we want to sell everything for top $$ but want to buy everything at bottom $$$.


Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

We are, I think from memory, the 12th largest economy in the world and we punch well above our weight economically. We need to get over our inferiority complex, not let others push us around, stop thinking like a colony and stand up for ourselves, I reckon.

and did we make 12th on the list though manufacturing?

manufacturing makes up under 10% of our GDP.


do you really think number 12 on the list can stand up to number 2 on the list?

[Eevo]

]

Our biggest problem is ourselves , its been said here before, we want to sell everything for top $$ but want to buy everything at bottom $$$.



isnt that human nature?

[Pickles2]

Well, referring to the thread title, with the Administrators now in place, I guess they will go through & analyse every aspect of the operation with a fine toothed comb. I will be interested in their findings, & do hope that there is a solution, which if there is one, will be based on facts, not words.......and I hope they do find one (a solution).
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

isnt that human nature?


Yes to an extent , but the road to recovery starts at home, and we need to start seeing past the cost to what the real price is of buy cheap lower grade products, which I am confident that imported steel is.


The biggest issue that I see is Arium made some bad business decisions by buying up thinking our boom was going to last forever, and changing the mindset of joe public that the tax payer should help them out.


I would have thought they could approach the government and get a secured loan at a capped interest rate to keep them trading within certain guidelines. The problem with administrators is they will see the profitable parts and try to keep them but toss the non profitable parts of the business, but in many cases its just a matter of where the costs are allocated so they may both be holding their own.


Its a bad place to be and hopefully some pressure can come that forces a outcome to keep them trading.


Cheers Ean

[incisor]

AAhh yes, the "M.U.A."!
I seem to remember the 1998 "Waterfront Dispute", where Mr Reith & Mr Patrick, were successful, as a result of this "infamous" dispute, in revealing some intersting waterfront "practises", which, shall we say, were not "World Standard".
I'm no expert, but Wikepedia has a very comprehensive of those issues, and the consequence of the dispute.
Pickles.
Of course, the issue that you refer to Frantic, is far removed from that. Just goes to show there's good & bad in everyone I guess.

somehow i doubt the mua has done anywhere near the damage to australians that the bankers have done over decades.

would love to see that same little light mr abbott constantly referred to shone down the money trails of the bankers and financiers.

bet a bit of it leads back to dodgy union hierarchy as well as all sides of government not to mention big business.....

PS
and i might add that after seeing and hearing their reaction, you would have to be mad not too!

[Ean Austral]

looks like I missed out on all the fun:wasntme:




Cheers Ean

[Pickles2]

somehow i doubt the mua has done anywhere near the damage to australians that the bankers have done over decades.

would love to see that same little light mr abbott constantly referred to shone down the money trails of the bankers and financiers.

bet a bit of it leads back to dodgy union hierarchy as well as all sides of government not to mention big business.....

PS
and i might add that after seeing and hearing their reaction, you would have to be mad not too!
Aaahhh Dave, "The Banks"?
Always makes me laugh, when Labor, or anyone else for that matter, has a go at "The Banks"? Of course I may be biased, I worked for one for 40 yrs. So, I know how they work, I know what they like, what they don't like, & despite what people say, they DO try to look after their customers,.....jeez, it's common sense,..no customer, no business, no profit.
Anyway, back to what I was saying, during the GFC (are we out of it yet?..I don't think so), LABOR,...Swan & Co, were trumpeting, continually, about the benefits of the FOUR PILLARS, the FOUR BIG BANKS, We're lucky to have them, their strength & integrity would protect us, never go down, there'd never be a run on them, we all knew we've got the strongest banks in the world, they're different to other banks,...ra ra ra,......jeez, I could go on & on,.....but now, Labor's on the other foot,.....Why would that be??!!!
Pickles.
NB: Don't believe ALL you hear relative to Banks giving someone a "hard time",.....there's ALWAYS two sides, I know, I've been involved in plenty of stuff. And no doubt, some will blame "The Banks" for the issues the subject of this thread, and yet I read somewhere that a week or so ago, someone put forward a "wonder fix" involving the influx of squillions,........but they never even spoke to "The Banks"!

[incisor]

looks like I missed out on all the fun:wasntme:




Cheers Ean

it literally was fun...

but not needed in the grand scheme of things...

got a pull a chain or two occasionally

;)

[Mick_Marsh]

it literally was fun...

but not needed in the grand scheme of things...

got a pull a chain or two occasionally

;)
You need to sign up to CA.


As does Mr Pickles.

[incisor]

Why would that be??!!!

it may have a little to do with the continual litany of abuse and mistreatment of customers that seems to be in the news over the last few years..

if "looking after your customers" was what they were doing with respect to the storm financials carry on etc etc etc, i would hate to see what not looking after them leads too!

[Pickles2]

You need to sign up to CA.


As does Mr Pickles.
LOL.
Been there, done that, No thanks.
"Mr. Pickles".

[Ean Austral]

somehow i doubt the mua has done anywhere near the damage to australians that the bankers have done over decades.

would love to see that same little light mr abbott constantly referred to shone down the money trails of the bankers and financiers.

bet a bit of it leads back to dodgy union hierarchy as well as all sides of government not to mention big business.....

PS
and i might add that after seeing and hearing their reaction, you would have to be mad not too!


For another time and thread Inc, but I would highly doubt it , I just think the MUA did it without the general publics knowledge.


Cheers Ean

[Pickles2]

it may have a little to do with the continual litany of abuse and mistreatment of customers that seems to be in the news over the last few years..

if "looking after your customers" was what they were doing with respect to the storm financials carry on etc etc etc, i would hate to see what not looking after them leads too!
Dave, for sure there's the bad stuff, but there's bad stuff in just about every organization....BUT, don't you think they do good stuff as well, and more particularly, don't you think the good greatly outweighs the bad,......because there's plenty of business owners & home owners that do.
Whether you believe it or not, I can assure you that if it is possible to help a customer, the Bank will do so,....I know, because that was the Dept I worked in, Customers, Accounts etc,....in trouble,....."non performing" is the word.
Well let me tell you, we worked our butts off trying to help ANY customer that needed it, not only for the customer of course, but for ourself,...the last thing we wanted was for the customer, Account etc to fail,,,,,that was no good for the customer & no good for us. Of course, some customers are beyond help, for NO fault of "The Banks",.....but the press vary rarely are interested in that side of those cases.
I've "been there/done that",....for a long time.
Pickles.

[Ferret]

..NB: Don't believe ALL you hear relative to Banks giving someone a "hard time",.....there's ALWAYS two sides, I know, I've been involved in plenty of stuff. And no doubt, some will blame "The Banks" for the issues the subject of this thread, and yet I read somewhere that a week or so ago, someone put forward a "wonder fix" involving the influx of squillions,........but they never even spoke to "The Banks"!

You must have missed this bit from one of the the article linked to in post #140


While neither Arrium nor its now very active banks would discuss the matter, there is informed speculation the selected banks began withdrawing uncommitted short-term funding from Arrium as early as July last year.

The sorts of facilities we are talking about here include letters of credit and the other short liquidity that are critical to greasing the wheels of commerce. Their removal suggests a level of sustained caution that implies a level of self-serving confection to the anger the bank's have started expressing about the aloofness of Arrium management through its progress to crisis.

Yes there are two sides to every story, here's another side.

The directors of any public company have an obligation to announce price sensitive material to all stake holders equally and at the same time. To not do so leaves them open to legal action by those (if any) disadvantaged by treating one creditor differently to another. Hence it's announcement to the the ASX publicly rather than to the banks privately. The banks were unsecured creditors with no special privileges.

[Eevo]

banks are there to look after its shareholders.

[Ferret]

No. Again, just us directors of public companies have obligations to treat all stakeholders equally so do directors of banks. Shareholders of banks are stakeholders - so are customers.

[Pickles2]

You must have missed this bit from one of the the article linked to in post #140



Yes there are two sides to every story, here's another side.

The directors of any public company have an obligation to announce price sensitive material to all stake holders equally and at the same time. To not do so leaves them open to legal action by those (if any) disadvantaged by treating one creditor differently to another. Hence it's announcement to the the ASX publicly rather than to the banks privately. The banks were unsecured creditors with no special privileges.
Not entirely correct.
Doesn't matter whether it's secured lending or not. As lenders, the banks, or any lender, are entitled to regular financial reports, whether that be monthly, weekly, daily, or whatever,...they are entitled to it,...and if they don't view it analyse it etc, then they are truly being irresponsible. And, if as a result of that info, if they see any trendings, whether it be good or bad, then they are entitled to increase or withdraw their funding, as they see fit.
Pickles.

[frantic]

Who would have thought a Tory govt in the uk would nationalise part of any industry let alone steel?
Steel crisis: UK willing to take 25% stake in rescue deal - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36102835)

Maybe somebody in Canberra could learn a thing or two?

[cuppabillytea]

somehow i doubt the mua has done anywhere near the damage to australians that the bankers have done over decades.

would love to see that same little light mr abbott constantly referred to shone down the money trails of the bankers and financiers.

bet a bit of it leads back to dodgy union hierarchy as well as all sides of government not to mention big business.....

PS
and i might add that after seeing and hearing their reaction, you would have to be mad not too!
Not to mention the damage done to the nation by certain people in their efforts to destroy the MUA.

[DiscoMick]

Who would have thought a Tory govt in the uk would nationalise part of any industry let alone steel?
Steel crisis: UK willing to take 25% stake in rescue deal - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36102835)

Maybe somebody in Canberra could learn a thing or two?

Bit like the American Government buying GM and Chrysler to stop them collapsing during the GFC and then floating them and selling them when they had recovered. Well done Obama, I say. America is certainly much better off than it would have been if GM and Chrysler had gone down. So the home of the free market and capitalism was quite prepared to intervene and nationalise to save an industry. Good thing too.
Equally, you can bet the Chinese Government will do whatever it takes to protect its industries.
We need to get over this level playing field fantasy and wake up to how the world really works.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[Ferret]

Well the horse has bolted but better late than never I suppose. A shame they could not have acted before the **** hit the fan.

Implications for China free trade aggreement, and how will China react. ???

Struggling steelmaker Arrium to be boosted by new import duties imposed on cheap Chinese steel (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-23/import-duties-imposed-on-cheap-chinese-steel/7352666)


Import duties will be imposed on "unfairly priced" Chinese steel products by the Federal Government in a bid to help embattled South Australian steelmaker Arrium remain competitive.

Industry Minister Christopher Pyne said duties of between 37 per cent and 53 per cent of the export price would apply to "rod in coil", and between 11 per cent and 30 per cent on reinforcing bar.

The move is intended to drive down oversupply of Chinese steel, and is based on recommendations by the Anti-Dumping Commission.

[bob10]

Well the horse has bolted but better late than never I suppose. A shame they could not have acted before the **** hit the fan.

Implications for China free trade aggreement, and how will China react. ???

Struggling steelmaker Arrium to be boosted by new import duties imposed on cheap Chinese steel (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-23/import-duties-imposed-on-cheap-chinese-steel/7352666)

Amazing what an election and bad polls will do. I don't care who does it, it had to be done.

[Ean Austral]

Amazing what an election and bad polls will do. I don't care who does it, it had to be done.


And that's all that matters.


Lets see how long it is before its said that the tariffs are not high enough.




Cheers Ean

[bob10]

And that's all that matters.


Lets see how long it is before its said that the tariffs are not high enough.




Cheers Ean

That will come from pure greed , that we know our most prominent businessmen/women are very capable of. It will take a strong leader to keep that under control, leaders are short on the ground in Aus. at the moment.

[frantic]

And that's all that matters.


Lets see how long it is before its said that the tariffs are not high enough.




Cheers Ean

Day one :D
Ours is 30% USA is 266% and they have a minimum 50% local on every govt job.
South Africa had the best idea, 100% govt jobs but company will cap profit on all jobs at 10%. Should have done the same here.

[bob10]

The new submarines are to be made with Australian steel. Amen to that. Hopefully the steelworks will be upgraded to provide the special steel for the pressure hulls.

[Tombie]

The new submarines are to be made with Australian steel. Amen to that. Hopefully the steelworks will be upgraded to provide the special steel for the pressure hulls.



Arrium can not make flat plate. They can make the steel grade but have no rolling mills for plate (BSL does).

[bob10]

Arrium can not make flat plate. They can make the steel grade but have no rolling mills for plate (BSL does).

As long as the work stays in Aus.