Gracie. DISASTER. Transmission Failure.

[Pickles2]

After being the love of our lives, and having been treated as such for just over two years & 41000Ks, Gracie came to a stop today, on a Highway, 200ks from home, with a TOTAL loss of drive.
NO drive in any gear, just a whirring rattling noise from the area of the transmission, with absolutely no forward motion.
LandRover Assist took 3hrs to get to us,..sitting in the hot sun, finally got her back to ULR, and thanks to Brett & the Service guys from ULR for waiting for us after hours. Thanks Guys.
So, any Defender experts, any idea what's happened?
Pickles.

[JDNSW]

Several possibilities (ignoring the possibility it was just knocked out of gear in the transfer case):-

1. Stripped axle flange spline, probably rear.

2. Broken centre diff

3. Stripped spline on the output gear/shaft of the main gearbox.

4. Broken clutch plate

For 1 and 2, engaging the centre diff lock would have got you going. 1. is a cheap and quick fix, the others neither cheap nor quick, although 3 is probably the most expensive.

Unlikely, but could also possibly be a broken CV joint in the front swivels, which the centre diff lock would have got you going as well. There are also a few other pretty unlikely possibilities.

1. is the most likely, in my view.

John

[scarry]

Probably output shaft for sure,another LR issue that should have been sorted:mad:

Hope they do the right thing and get it sorted.

[4wheeler]

Very bad luck Pickles.
Could be the adaptor shaft between the gearbox and the transfer case. A few have failed at this distance as many were not lubricated. That results in total loss of drive, including centre diff lock use. Warranty I assume.

My Defender is at the dealer having the main seal replaced and the adaptor shaft checked for lubricant while they are at it.

Also replacing the front axle seals as grease is contaminating the diff oil. Hmm, this is what I suggested might be the problem when at the last service (4000km ago), they said the front diff oil was contaminated and needed replacing. What more can you do!

Hope you get it sorted soon.

[Pickles2]

Very bad luck Pickles.
Could be the adaptor shaft between the gearbox and the transfer case. A few have failed at this distance as many were not lubricated. That results in total loss of drive, including centre diff lock use. Warranty I assume.

My Defender is at the dealer having the main seal replaced and the adaptor shaft checked for lubricant while they are at it.

Also replacing the front axle seals as grease is contaminating the diff oil. Hmm, this is what I suggested might be the problem when at the last service (4000km ago), they said the front diff oil was contaminated and needed replacing. What more can you do!

Hope you get it sorted soon.
Thank You.
This "lack of lubrication" issue?...I've heard of it, but never thought I'd experience anything like that because of the "gentlest" respectful way we drive her.
The vehicle's done 41000ks, last serviced by Dealer at 24000ks,....wouldn't they have "lubricated" it?...I am not mechanically minded!
Thanks, Pickles.

[GypsySamuraiAnt]

Really sorry to hear this mate, you must be gutted. I hope LR gives you a quick and long lasting fix as soon as possible.

Cheers,
Ant.

[Disco Muppet]

Thank You.
This "lack of lubrication" issue?...I've heard of it, but never thought I'd experience anything like that because of the "gentlest" respectful way we drive her.
The vehicle's done 41000ks, last serviced by Dealer at 24000ks,....wouldn't they have "lubricated" it?...I am not mechanically minded!
Thanks, Pickles.

Not unless they're pulling the gearbox out at services I'd imagine.
There's a solution offered by Ashcroft, if it turns out to be your issue I'd be leaning on them heavily to utilise the Ashcroft fix.
Sorry to hear of your woes, my D2 has had 3 trips on a flat bed!

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rangieman]

One way of eliminating axles & diffs is select cdl if it moves my money would be on a drive flange or stripped splines on a axle;)

[rick130]

Probably output shaft for sure,another LR issue that should have been sorted:mad:

Hope they do the right thing and get it sorted.

That'd be my pick too, that spud shaft has caught quite a few people out.

[rar110]

Several possibilities (ignoring the possibility it was just knocked out of gear in the transfer case):- 1. Stripped axle flange spline, probably rear. 2. Broken centre diff 3. Stripped spline on the output gear/shaft of the main gearbox. 4. Broken clutch plate For 1 and 2, engaging the centre diff lock would have got you going. 1. is a cheap and quick fix, the others neither cheap nor quick, although 3 is probably the most expensive. Unlikely, but could also possibly be a broken CV joint in the front swivels, which the centre diff lock would have got you going as well. There are also a few other pretty unlikely possibilities. 1. is the most likely, in my view. John

I'm betting option 3.

I experienced the same sound 6 mths ago in the L322.

At least it's a warranty job.

[1nando]

If its the output shaft, id get the ashcroft kit asap. If you do you'll never have to worry about it again.
The output shafts are sometimes either setup incorrectly and as a reault misaligned and can wear at an accelerated rate or not greased properly leading to premature failure.

Anyway when u find out what it is 100% please let us know

[justinc]

Yup another stripped adapter shaft. Shouldn't bloody happen. 😠

Jc

[Pickles2]

Yup another stripped adapter shaft. Shouldn't bloody happen. 😠

Jc
So, why does it "bloody" happen?..Who is to blame?
Justin, thank you for your response, Pickles.

[justinc]

Sorry i was having a rant about the ridiculous situation that exists when a class leading and not entirely cheap vehicle can be designed and assembled and released to the market with such a failure of a major component just waiting to happen. In this day and age of engineering prowess and innovation just how in the heck does this occur??? Its because the end product is governed by accountants preventing engineers from doing their job properly is my guess...
The lack of lubricant during assembly is the reason the splines fret and fail.
Jc

[Pickles2]

Sorry i was having a rant about the ridiculous situation that exists when a class leading and not entirely cheap vehicle can be designed and assembled and released to the market with such a failure of a major component just waiting to happen. In this day and age of engineering prowess and innovation just how in the heck does this occur??? Its because the end product is governed by accountants preventing engineers from doing their job properly is my guess...
The lack of lubricant during assembly is the reason the splines fret and fail.
Jc
During assembly?..How does this happen?..Just assemble without grease?..Like I said, I ain't no mechanical genius, so all info is appreciated.
Pickles.

[bee utey]

During assembly?..How does this happen?..Just assemble without grease?..Like I said, I ain't no mechanical genius, so all info is appreciated.
Pickles.
You could try searching the forum:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/216748-mt82-adapter-shaft-2.html#post2330810

[jimb]

You could try searching the forum:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/216748-mt82-adapter-shaft-2.html#post2330810


Pickles

If you didn't feel like searching, or innocently asked a pretty good question thinking someone might give you a 1sentence answer rather than directing you to search before you ask any questions-

Simple answer(I think). The current design prevents oil/lubricant getting in there. So not as simple as rubbing some grease on I suppose.

[ozy013]

Sorry to hear about your loss Pickles, hopefully the problem with Gracie is sorted soon.

It definitely sounds like the output adapter shaft, it's not just the lack of grease that causes the failure, unfortunately there also seems to be issues with alignment between the two housings on some Defenders.

[Pickles2]

Pickles

If you didn't feel like searching, or innocently asked a pretty good question thinking someone might give you a 1sentence answer rather than directing you to search before you ask any questions-

Simple answer(I think). The current design prevents oil/lubricant getting in there. So not as simple as rubbing some grease on I suppose.
jimb, Thank You.
After getting home last night, I can tell you that I was totally devastated, mainly with the transmission failure, but also the "Saga" of getting Gracie back to ULR, so rightly or wrongly, I didn't even think about a search, but thanks for the link, which this morning I have been able to absorb!....I have now looked at it, and I reckon that is definitely the issue.
Funnily enough I was given a drive of a friend's new Adventure Edition last week, & I did say to him that his drove very smoothly, with much less transmission/slackness/backlash than mine,......so maybe this "condition" has been building up for a while.
Thanks, Pickles.

[rar110]

jimb, Thank You. After getting home last night, I can tell you that I was totally devastated, mainly with the transmission failure, but also the "Saga" of getting Gracie back to ULR, so rightly or wrongly, I didn't even think about a search, but thanks for the link, which this morning I have been able to absorb!....I have now looked at it, and I reckon that is definitely the issue. Funnily enough I was given a drive of a friend's new Adventure Edition last week, & I did say to him that his drove very smoothly, with much less transmission/slackness/backlash than mine,......so maybe this "condition" has been building up for a while. Thanks, Pickles.

There is quite a lot of slope in a Defender drive train as it accumulates. Output spline wear is not something you can normally detect over any other spline or gear wear. The drive flange spline is supposed to be a sacrificial part of the drive train so it should wear first. As JC says it's a design or assembly fault.

[cafe latte]

Sorry to hear what happened Pickles..
Next time I go to Cairns I will get the Landy specialist to check the slop in my drive line and if they think it is too much (I do) I will get them to do a letter saying such which I dont mind paying for. I will try a big moan again at the next service this time armed with a letter and a modded Ashcroft output shaft.
Here's hoping mine does not fail before the service..
Chris

[Pickles2]

Sorry to hear what happened Pickles..
Next time I go to Cairns I will get the Landy specialist to check the slop in my drive line and if they think it is too much (I do) I will get them to do a letter saying such which I dont mind paying for. I will try a big moan again at the next service this time armed with a letter and a modded Ashcroft output shaft.
Here's hoping mine does not fail before the service..
Chris
Good thinking,.....because I can now tell you from "personal experience", that being "caught out" like we were in a relatively remote location, is not a pleasant experience.
landRover assist actually said to me when I complained about the delay said, "ah well you are not in the metropolitan area,..... outside our normal range, ...we have to use subcontractors......etc etc"...jeez, where they expect Landrovers to be?
Pickles.

[cafe latte]

Good thinking,.....because I can now tell you from "personal experience", that being "caught out" like we were in a relatively remote location, is not a pleasant experience.
landRover assist actually said to me when I complained about the delay said, "ah well you are not in the metropolitan area,..... outside our normal range, ...we have to use subcontractors......etc etc"...jeez, where they expect Landrovers to be?
Pickles.

Very true, if you were going to spend your time in the city you would not buy/ need a Land Rover in the first place.
Twice now I have complained to the Dealer about the slop in the drive line both times they said it was normal. The last time I took the mechanic for a drive and he was unable to change gear without a clunk. He said he would have a look and he still came back saying all was good and it was normal!!
Do you know for sure what failed on yours yet?
Chris

[ProjectDirector]

It took me nearly 2 years to convince them it was flange/axle issue and replaced them last year. Guess what, I think they are gone again. I did some diagnostics and now my output shaft is very slack more than before which I asked the dealer to investigate but said normal.
My warranty expires end of may this year and am getting independent diagnostics done and present that during the next service.

[Andrew86]

if you were going to spend your time in the city you would not buy/ need a Land Rover in the first place.

As a city Defender owner, I take offence to that ;)

Really sorry to hear about your troubles, Pickles. I hope it's all sorted soon.

[Pickles2]

Very true, if you were going to spend your time in the city you would not buy/ need a Land Rover in the first place.
Twice now I have complained to the Dealer about the slop in the drive line both times they said it was normal. The last time I took the mechanic for a drive and he was unable to change gear without a clunk. He said he would have a look and he still came back saying all was good and it was normal!!
Do you know for sure what failed on yours yet?
Chris
Nothing define yet, but I think it's the output/adapter shaft.
It may be "normal", & I took it to be, but after driving my friend's Adventure Edition, which was super smooth with virtually no backlash/clunking at all, I'm not so sure. best advice I can give you, go & drive another, & see what you think.
Regards, Pickles.

[AndyG]

Mine was built 07/07/14 and at 12000 got anew rear main seal, and adaptor shaft, am sorely tempted to replace shafts, diffs axles and flanges with good Ashcroft stuff and bugger the warrenty

[Lagerfan]

Sorry to hear Pickles, you must be gutted.

I recall there was a service bulletin with something about squirting grease into the shaft at each service to lube it, seemed a bit of a potluck solution but I think I have noticed it on the paperwork from our last couple of services. Be interesting to see if yours makes mention of it? We use MLR so essentially same guys.

[cafe latte]

Sorry to hear Pickles, you must be gutted.

I recall there was a service bulletin with something about squirting grease into the shaft at each service to lube it, seemed a bit of a potluck solution but I think I have noticed it on the paperwork from our last couple of services. Be interesting to see if yours makes mention of it? We use MLR so essentially same guys.

Is that even possible? I cant imagine how you would even get to the part without a lot of dismantling.
Chris

[roverrescue]

Just some Friday afternoon spit balling

First if you wanted to "test" the adaptor. You could put the gearbox in gear engine off.
Remove the Transfer case PTO inspection plate.
Slide out the input gear and voila you will be looking at the back end of the adaptor shaft.

Ideally there should be minimal slack between the input shaft and trying to turn some gears in the gearbag?

Spitball idea number two

The MT82 box defender I have recently bought has had a machine shop modified adaptor shaft with opposing zerks and grease channel machined. Hole in adaptor casing for grease gun access. All very schmick.

But what would be wrong with simple filling the adaptor junction with a high quality high shear grease and then slipping an appropriate sized CV boot over the joint. Zip the boot on and the grease is well contained. No fluid or external wear?
Perhaps not as sexy as the Ashcroft mod but where are the holes in my theory?

Steve

[cafe latte]

Anyone have any pics of doing this job or how hard it is?
Does the Ashcroft solution fix all the worn parts or will the gearbox main shaft have to be replaced too?
Cheers
Chris

[Dervish]

Anyone have any pics of doing this job or how hard it is?
Does the Ashcroft solution fix all the worn parts or will the gearbox main shaft have to be replaced too?
Cheers
Chris

The job is basically removing the transfer case. Once it is out, you'll be able to pull the spud shaft out, it'll look like this (ignore the lines, was used in another thread).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/814.jpg

The socket on the end of the mainshaft looks like this.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/815.jpg

The socket is removable, so no need to replace the mainshaft if the interface is worn. Unless the spline on the mainshaft is also worn, I guess.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/816.jpg

In this next photo you'll see what I guess is the factory fix, the interface is packed with grease and that plastic cover thing holds over the spud shaft and onto the socket to keep the grease in. A rubber boot would be better.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/817.jpg

[Lagerfan]

Is that even possible? I cant imagine how you would even get to the part without a lot of dismantling.
Chris

You might be right, I'm probably confusing it with the actual LR "fix", which I found and is SSM71952 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=106549&stc=1&d=1457083759) but I was sure I saw something about it being addressed during service as well. As I recall it was a "try and squirt some grease down there" type thing - which is why I called it a potluck fix! Wish I could find it but there's a good chance I imagined it :)

[cafe latte]

The job is basically removing the transfer case. Once it is out, you'll be able to pull the spud shaft out, it'll look like this (ignore the lines, was used in another thread).

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/814.jpg

The socket on the end of the mainshaft looks like this.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/815.jpg

The socket is removable, so no need to replace the mainshaft if the interface is worn. Unless the spline on the mainshaft is also worn, I guess.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/816.jpg

In this next photo you'll see what I guess is the factory fix, the interface is packed with grease and that plastic cover thing holds over the spud shaft and onto the socket to keep the grease in. A rubber boot would be better.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/817.jpg
Great post it explains it perfectly :)
Good to here you can change the whole thing without messing with the main shaft. I have rebuilt a couple of gearboxes including a new main shaft on a Toyota and it was a pain in the butt. I hope I can get the dealer to do this as mine has slop, but at least I know it is not that hard now. Thing is it should not happen!!
Chris

[rick130]

A little thread drift, how are you blokes finding the shift quality on the MT82 ?

Just started a new job this week and my car is a near new BT50 with the 3.2 and the MT82 behind it.
I'm finding the 'box clunky and easy to beat the synchros in certain gears, and I'm shifting gently, not rushing the changes at all.
Nice short throw and a narrow gate, but an awful change IMO.
Datsun/Nissan 'boxes from the seventies/eighties put it to shame.

The 3.2 throttle response is strange (bloody fly by wire throttles) but it's ballsy and sounds bloody brilliant from inside the cab. :D

Not sure how it would go off road but trying to work out if the company would miss the engine if it found it's way into the Deefer. :angel:

[cafe latte]

A little thread drift, how are you blokes finding the shift quality on the MT82 ?

Just started a new job this week and my car is a near new BT50 with the 3.2 and the MT82 behind it.
I'm finding the 'box clunky and easy to beat the synchros in certain gears, and I'm shifting gently, not rushing the changes at all.
Nice short throw and a narrow gate, but an awful change IMO.
Datsun/Nissan 'boxes from the seventies/eighties put it to shame.

The 3.2 throttle response is strange (bloody fly by wire throttles) but it's ballsy and sounds bloody brilliant from inside the cab. :D

Not sure how it would go off road but trying to work out if the company would miss the engine if it found it's way into the Deefer. :angel:
I love my Defender to bits, but I hate with a passion the clunky shift. It is a good box and you find the gears easily, but I is some situations it is almost impossible not to clunk the change, you almost give yourself a pat on the back when you dont clunk it.
Chris

[Pickles2]

dfendr:...G'Day Peter.
Mate, I reckon the shift in your Adventure is beautiful, very little if any clunking/backlash,...you've got a good one.
Regretfully We can't drive Gracie tomorrow, but I've now "recovered" enough to go without her, so, we'll see you at the destination, wherever that is?
Martin.

[alan48]

Hi all,
my 14 110 has spent months in the dealership in warranty re the transfer case so wonder if anyone on here has had the same issues? Car has had clunks on gear changes almost since new (now done 50K kms) so various dealers have replaced three sets of axles, flanges, A arm ball joint, rear diff tightened, jack shaft replaced early on and now just had TNS case rebuilt here in Sydney--BUT now it keeps leaking oil from between the gearbox and TNS--in fact now on third seal so waiting to hear if fixed or not--only drive it about 40 kms not hundreds just 40 and it pours oil out again. Now I have no complaint re the dealer or Rover Assist (have now got a free loan car--a Jag too!) until fixed but someone must know what is happening--could it be this misalignment for the shafts that is causing the issues--when it went in for transfer case rebuild it was not leaking any oil but is since work performed--now a few times!Should the gearbox also be rebuilt as if the transfer case is now perfect could it be out of sinc with the gearbox somehow Any ideas welcomed.

[alanw]

I have some more queries to add to this thread - but first some background.


The spline on the centre shaft on my 2013 130DC stripped at 47K.
I was of the view that the backlash was getting worse - and had it noted as an issue on the 40K service which took place at the same time as the oil pump recall was done. Expert opinion at the time was that there was no problem but 7K later there was a trip back to the dealer on the back of a truck.
I had backed my own judgement and ordered and received the Ashcroft replacement shaft prior to the spline stripping - so this went down and was installed as the replacement. All backlash removed in one go.
But there were delays in the changeover - including a puller being broken trying to remove some component from the gearbox. Was told this had to be done whenever the centre shaft fails to make sure there was no problem within the box.
And now - about 3K later - there is an oil leak from the back of the gearbox.


Can anyone fill in some detail as to what might be going on here?


Thks.

[YOLO110]

It may be "normal", & I took it to be, but after driving my friend's Adventure Edition, which was super smooth with virtually no backlash/clunking at all...

Really sorry to hear about this mate... I know you have not even really stressed your drivetrain with serious offload stuff either... :confused:

Your observation about the Adventure is exactly what I noted in my UK Heritage. Super smooth drivetrain, no backlash, no 'knicking' from 1st to 2nd... as well as an engine with NO rev-hang either! I asked Customer Relations to comment... the reply was there was nothing different in the Heritage... I do wonder if there are some porkies running about here and later vehicles did have some more development improvements introduced... ???

As for the recovery, 200km from Melbourne is hardly a long way away! I am off on my half 'lap' Sydney to Perth in June... heaven knows what would happen if I were to have an issue with my 90, 200km West of Uluru on the Great Central Highway, my planned route...

Hope this is sorted... what worries me however is this seems like a 'sleeping' problem that will happen... not just if, but when. That's not right... if a low mileage user finally gets to 50,000 km in say 5 years and has the same failure from a proven weakness in the Defender, will JLR cough up...? It makes me want to do 33,333 km every year for the 3 years so I know it will probably break before the warrantee expires and can then be fixed!

I think the solution may indeed simply be the 'bugger the warrantee' comment and just get on and fit some properly engineered and assembled replacement parts to mitigate future worry and failure...

Let us know the diagnosis and planned repair... perhaps you should push JLR for the above solution?

Cheers, Pete ;)

[Pickles2]

Well Pete, You've summed up the situation pretty well.
It was a big shock for Karen & I. I've always been aware of a bit of slackness/backlash (just thought it was "normal" Defender stuff?), don't know whether it was a sign of this problem developing,..I wouldn't know, but yeah, driving along on a beautiful day, then, out of nowhere, suddenly coming to a "grinding" stop, is not the best.
L.R. assist were pretty average, but I did eventually get Gracie back to ULR not quite in time, but the ULR service guys were pretty good and stayed back for us. I've now spoken to the Worshop Manager, and am quite happy that she's now in good hands.
Hopefully we'll have some news next week, watching Clipsal now. Karen has a nice tea & a bottle of red organized, so all is good!
Regards, Martin.

[PAT303]

The trouble with the TDCi is back in the beginning when we stared having the backlash issue every tom dick and harry expert blamed either the P38 or the centre diff,the diff's where never the problem,the problem was always the axle flanges and the adapter.Replace the flanges as soon as you get the vehicle and at the first service get LR to remove the transfer and grease the adapter,if they don't do it leave it there until they do,this should not happen but it does,get these two issue's fixed and drive happy.If you decide to keep the vehicle for a long time make the decision to fit an ATB and oil lubed adapter from Ashcrofts and the problem is properly and permanently fixed. Pat

[jimr1]

A little thread drift, how are you blokes finding the shift quality on the MT82 ?

Just started a new job this week and my car is a near new BT50 with the 3.2 and the MT82 behind it.
I'm finding the 'box clunky and easy to beat the synchros in certain gears, and I'm shifting gently, not rushing the changes at all.
Nice short throw and a narrow gate, but an awful change IMO.
Datsun/Nissan 'boxes from the seventies/eighties put it to shame.

The 3.2 throttle response is strange (bloody fly by wire throttles) but it's ballsy and sounds bloody brilliant from inside the cab. :D

Not sure how it would go off road but trying to work out if the company would miss the engine if it found it's way into the Deefer. :angel:
Hi Rick , I always said this engine should have been on offer as a option over the standard 2.2 lt . I like the 2.2 don't get me wrong , but maybe those extra horses would have been a nice option !!.. Jim

[ATH]

I've just test driven both auto and manual BT-50s and found the same with the manual gearbox. The auto was very smooth and would be my pick to replace the Defender.
But, after the test drive the Deafener felt that much stronger and steadier on the road I've decided not to bother getting rid of it at the mo......:p
I'm also getting the independent I use to give the drive line a thorough check and give a quote for an Ashcroft replacement output shaft and maybe an ATB.
The reason I'm thinking of spending the dough doing this upgrade is because a mate with his 2007 110 had his shaft let go at Balladonia WA after returning from the east. Him and his wife have done many thousands of kays on their own with total confidence in the Puma. Needless to say that confidence has been shattered and who can blame them?
When the stealer was trying to fix my backlash plus fitting a new transfer box, I had to beg the workshop foreman to make sure the shaft was greased properly while they could.
His answer was "It's not a service item....." !!!!!! "We know that (you turkey) as it can't be got at during a service but how about doing it anyway"?
My drive is reasonably smooth with good changes now but I've still got this nagging feeling about that damn shaft......
AlanH.

[PAT303]

Go to another dealer,Barbagallo's replaced mine 3 months out of warranty,I didn't get the service item line,there is no need for all this confidence shattering talk,it's a known issue,fix it and move on.Lets not let this get into a TDCi knockers thread,these two problems are no different to what we went through with the Tdi and Td5 when they were new,all up the TDCi is a much stronger vehicle than both,people just have sort memories. Pat

[aj90]

I'm a huge Land Rover fan but this is why people move away from Land Rovers. Tom Sheppard was a frequent traveller & explorer to isolated locations throughout the world with Land Rover products; he was let down once too often so moved to Merc G Wagons, more recently like the Australian Army have done.
Forums like this one are a huge help as are specialist LR service garages. I think the only way to go is to do alot of preventative maintenance ahead of time including adding known fixes eg Ashcroft add ons etc.
I'm in the process of doing this with my 90 as I'm now keeping it for longer than expected given the huge cost and rarity for any new ones left!!

[jackdef90]

I'm a huge Land Rover fan but this is why people move away from Land Rovers. Tom Sheppard was a frequent traveller & explorer to isolated locations throughout the world with Land Rover products; he was let down once too often so moved to Merc G Wagons, more recently like the Australian Army have done.

That's not the reason the army moved away from LR

[jackdef90]

106600

Attached is Photo of the culprit, was changed about a year ago when I hassled LR into replacing my clutch at their expense, then about 3months later that clutch was rubbish again and they replaced whole clutch kit again at their expense, output shaft was in new condition no wear at all and covered in grease still. I now have a good clutch that feels 10 times better than the first 2 and I'm not worried about this output shaft stripping on me.
The application of grease is all that it needs, if it hasn't been done make them do it, if you get a bad part that is faulty make them replace it, you've got every right to do so.

[MrLandy]

Lube or replace your shaft and keep your Defender. All makes have their problems. I know of a new Amarok that needed a new gear box within 10K, Tojo 78' needing new gearbox / diffs within 30K... There would be countless other examples.

As others have said there's no excuse for JLR not to have fixed known problems, which is why demanding warranty fixes is imperative. Keep them honest. Go to a different dealer if no support.

I'm monitoring my backlash, it's getting worse at 45K. Will call a meeting with dealer service manager without hesitation if gets much worse and also considering pre-emptive action to have input shaft changed at next service. I'd much rather do that than change to another vehicle, let alone the changeover cost.

IMO preemptive maintenance repays in spades, whether it's upgrading radiator, new water pump, uni joints, hoses, belts, tyres, whatever.

The two known Defender issues identified here can be fixed for peace of mind. Input shaft is only seen as major because it's a gearbox out fix/mod. No one here would think twice about spending same money on a bullbar, upgrading shocks, rear wheel carrier, or any other functional bling/mod/upgrade. Better to know the key issues and fix than not to know and be surprised. Another reason why the AULRO clan is so awesome.

Cheers

[justinc]

WARNING PUMA KNOCKING ABOUT TO HAPPEN . Look away if offended...

I as a repairer can 100% say that these vehicles are worse than the previous models for faults per vehicle. I've seen ON MULTIPLE VEHICLES loose and even missing sway bar link bolts all the way through to engine failures due to poor design. Including all components of the complete driveline.

This is also 100% the reason i don't have one and bought a dmax ite for work use. I love my landies anyone who knows me knows this . However i will not give this model a good rap.

As i have also stated previously somewhete here i have plenty of satisfied customers who hardly have any issues at all but plenty at the other end of the spectrum too.

Take what you will from this post.

Jc

[slug_burner]

All cars have their problems, some because they have inherent faults, they get fixed if the model run is long enough or the accountants have their way and cheap parts continue to be used or the effort does not get spent to fix the problem. Then out comes a new model and the cycle starts again.

I have a 300Tdi and a Td5 both have had their model related faults. The R380 and LT230 combination had a similar issue to that of the MT82, not a spud shaft but the splines on the gearbox main output shaft and input gear to the transfer case. At least with the TDCi the spud shaft and the output socket can be replaced without having to rebuild the box, I had to get the R380 rebuilt as the main shaft had lost it's splines. Then there was the timing belt and had to get the the front timing cover replaced etc. The Td5 has fuel coolers, worn fuel hoses on top of the tank, leaking injectors, blah, blah.

You weigh up the situation, fix the problem, get rid of or hold onto the vehicle. If you get rid of it then you can move onto another model in the same brand or move onto another marque. You would think that systemic faults would not occur, everyone is under pressure to do more with less. It is just a symptom of the times.

Looks like there are fixes for this TDCi problem so it must be time for LR to introduce a new model.

[PAT303]

I'm a huge Land Rover fan but this is why people move away from Land Rovers. Tom Sheppard was a frequent traveller & explorer to isolated locations throughout the world with Land Rover products; he was let down once too often so moved to Merc G Wagons, more recently like the Australian Army have done.
Forums like this one are a huge help as are specialist LR service garages. I think the only way to go is to do alot of preventative maintenance ahead of time including adding known fixes eg Ashcroft add ons etc.
I'm in the process of doing this with my 90 as I'm now keeping it for longer than expected given the huge cost and rarity for any new ones left!!

The difference between a happy holiday and a tow is knowing your vehicle,preventative maintenance,dealing with known issue's,the use of common sense before-during and returning from a trip is no different regardless of brand,I'll bet Tom Sheppard has a very good Merc mechanic. Pat

[PAT303]

WARNING PUMA KNOCKING ABOUT TO HAPPEN . Look away if offended...

I as a repairer can 100% say that these vehicles are worse than the previous models for faults per vehicle. I've seen ON MULTIPLE VEHICLES loose and even missing sway bar link bolts all the way through to engine failures due to poor design. Including all components of the complete driveline.

This is also 100% the reason i don't have one and bought a dmax ite for work use. I love my landies anyone who knows me knows this . However i will not give this model a good rap.

As i have also stated previously somewhete here i have plenty of satisfied customers who hardly have any issues at all but plenty at the other end of the spectrum too.

Take what you will from this post.

Jc

Sorry JC but no,half the members of the Sydney LR club were off the road because of timing belt failures,R380 stripped output splines,P Gasket failures,plastic dowel HG failures,loom oil contamination,fuel cooler leaks,oil pump bolts and lets not forget axle flange failures,I also remember the days of LR not repairing vehicles under warranty Ala Toyota/Nissan.The TDCi has bugger all issue's mechanically compared to the three models before it,where it's let down is the QC on assembly. Pat

[justinc]

Sorry JC but no,half the members of the Sydney LR club were off the road because of timing belt failures,R380 stripped output splines,P Gasket failures,plastic dowel HG failures,loom oil contamination,fuel cooler leaks,oil pump bolts and lets not forget axle flange failures,I also remember the days of LR not repairing vehicles under warranty Ala Toyota/Nissan.The TDCi has bugger all issue's mechanically compared to the three models before it,where it's let down is the QC on assembly. Pat

I've been doing this for 26 years now and started my landrover love affair back with Range rover and county etc. I have owned some of and worked on all of those models and have built a business around them. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject Pat ☺

Jc

[ProjectDirector]

I would agree with JC, they are design issues. They put this car together in a hurry and created mechanically a "Frankenstein"

[manic]

...these two problems are no different to what we went through with the Tdi and Td5 when they were new,all up the TDCi is a much stronger vehicle than both,people just have sort memories. Pat

I will concede, I have a selective memory. What memories do you have of TDI, td5 driveline problems hitting at low mileage and how is the puma set up much stronger?

[davisshannon]

Looking at the problems experienced, would people recommend doing the Ashcroft MT82 Output Adapter along with things like heavy duty drive flanges, and possibly heavier duty axles and CV's sooner rather than later? Or would you say just run it until things go bad and then replace then (hopefully you're not too far out for the tow)? This is on a brand new 2016 90, where I do notice a bit more slop compared to the TD5 90 I had years ago.

[justinc]

Looking at the problems experienced, would people recommend doing the Ashcroft MT82 Output Adapter along with things like heavy duty drive flanges, and possibly heavier duty axles and CV's sooner rather than later? Or would you say just run it until things go bad and then replace then (hopefully you're not too far out for the tow)? This is on a brand new 2016 90, where I do notice a bit more slop compared to the TD5 90 I had years ago.

I have developed a list for these later models which now includes an Ashcroft ATB for the transfer case and a removal and lube of the yrans adapter in the same job. Next a change and inspection of the diff oils at 10k service. ANY sign of silver and we'll look closely at loose crosspins in the front diff and premature bearing failure for the rear diff ( p38a only in 110 and 130) and crosspin issues with the rear diff in a 90. Also a complete tightening of every suspension bush/ bolt and wheel bearing service/ change to oil lube hubs.

Jc

[1nando]

Looking at the problems experienced, would people recommend doing the Ashcroft MT82 Output Adapter along with things like heavy duty drive flanges, and possibly heavier duty axles and CV's sooner rather than later? Or would you say just run it until things go bad and then replace then (hopefully you're not too far out for the tow)? This is on a brand new 2016 90, where I do notice a bit more slop compared to the TD5 90 I had years ago.

THIS IS MY EXPERIENCE AND OPINION:

i own a 2013 2.2 110. Ive had parts thrown at my truck which in reality were thrown at it becuase of simple fixes which the dealer didnt address for what ever reason. For example i had 3 rear diffs (the 1st diff however was setup inccorrectly from factory) when the actual problem was the rear axels and flanges for example, ive even had 2 gearboxes :what: amongst a long list
Anyway to make a puma tough and reliable you need the following (remeber my opinion):
Hd rear axels
Hd flanges all round
Rear diff locker
Rear wheel carrier
Ashcroft output shaft kit

Thats it! Thats my experience, those listed items make the puma a formidable beast, tougher than any toyo or nissan out there! Obviously i could go on with the list of mods but they are not necessities but rather "wants" eg intercooler, remap, egr removal, 33s, bullbar, roof rack, lights, draws, snorkel, etc etc etc

[mike_beecham]

Hi All
As l am looking at PUMA 130 - what is the cost for the Ashcroft MT82 Output Adapter + labour? I believe Ritter and Les Richmond are agents for Ashcrofts?

Michael

[justinc]

Hi All
As l am looking at PUMA 130 - what is the cost for the Ashcroft MT82 Output Adapter + labour? I believe Ritter and Les Richmond are agents for Ashcrofts?

Michael

Michael in all honesty at those low kms i would be saving the $ for the fantastic ATB for the centre diff and just remove/replace/ lube the shaft. Obviously if the female adapter is flogged then go the whole hog.

[davisshannon]

So do you feel that the stock front axles are sufficient and don't need replacing?

[1nando]

So do you feel that the stock front axles are sufficient and don't need replacing?

Everyone mentions this, i dont know any puma driver who's broken a front cv. Im not saying they are the bees knees but i dont know anyone, fact!
Who here has broken front cv on their puma? Anyone? I would love to know what you were doing when broke it, just curious

[justinc]

There has been a few and interestingly iirc they were mostly due to having NO LUBRICANT in the swivel housing ex factory...😠😠. They have the same CV and axles as the previous model so the only extra stress over a td5 would be that antistall in low range with traction control operating...and a sharp steering angle. I have run these cvs in my 4bd1t rrc and now county and haven't broken anything even with 33's. Maybe i haven't wheeled hard enough then??? 😈

Jc

[PAT303]

I will concede, I have a selective memory. What memories do you have of TDI, td5 driveline problems hitting at low mileage and how is the puma set up much stronger?

My '98 Tdi had four timing belt,timing gear,belt tensioner ''upgrades'' plus two output gear upgrades alone,plus '98 is when we had big end bearing failure that snapped cranks,not bad for the last year of production. Pat

[PAT303]

I would agree with JC, they are design issues. They put this car together in a hurry and created mechanically a "Frankenstein"

Considering where my ''Frankenstein'' has taken me in the last 5 years we'll have to agree to disagree. Pat

[Disco Muppet]

No-one said Frankenstein couldn't be capable pat. However I'd tend to agree, Ford probably didn't want to put a whole lot of thought into it, and what they used can work to great effect but it can also create issues.

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rar110]

Land Rover have a different way of doing things. The bean counters have wanted to drop Defender for at least the last decade. Ford couldn't get their noodle around a Henry Ford era production line being used in the 21st century, but insisted a few ford items get used like gearbox, motor, vents etc.

Unlike other makes I think the later production run is higher risk than the first.

[MrLandy]

WARNING PUMA KNOCKING ABOUT TO HAPPEN . Look away if offended...

I as a repairer can 100% say that these vehicles are worse than the previous models for faults per vehicle. I've seen ON MULTIPLE VEHICLES loose and even missing sway bar link bolts all the way through to engine failures due to poor design. Including all components of the complete driveline.

This is also 100% the reason i don't have one and bought a dmax ite for work use. I love my landies anyone who knows me knows this . However i will not give this model a good rap.

As i have also stated previously somewhete here i have plenty of satisfied customers who hardly have any issues at all but plenty at the other end of the spectrum too.

Take what you will from this post.

Jc

Big call JC! In fact a very serious indightment coming from one of the best LR mechanics in the country.

If this is the case then no one buy a Ford Ranger or Mazda BT50 to replace their puma either.

My understanding is that apart from engine/gearbox, the only difference to driveline from previous Defenders is the rear diff? The problematic adapter shaft links the tried and true transfer case to new getrag gearbox. Once lubed or replaced no more problem?

Can I ask, what are the consistent puma engine / gearbox problems you're finding?

All Defenders have driveline clunk, all need HD flanges and rear axles at some point. All Defenders are prone to quirky behaviour, all have had factory issues and all 4WDs have their failings.

...How do puma electrics compare to problematic TD5 elecs for example?

DMax might be a great light duty work ute with a sweet engine but they look pretty flimsy as a long term rough country proposition to me.

Pumas must be really bad for you to come to this conclusion JC.

[ProjectDirector]

Considering where my ''Frankenstein'' has taken me in the last 5 years we'll have to agree to disagree. Pat


I said "Frankenstein" from the perspective of putting parts together that have little engineering input. I am an engineer and been involved in many engineering designs.
LR obviously did not have design funds for defender and therefore quickly took parts from existing pile and adapted them.
Why do you think the bonnet has a bulge? They had to place the engine higher to line up the drivetrain.
Anyway I still like my defender and will fix the drivetrain design flaws with Ashcroft and hand the car to my son as I was about to sell it and he put his hand up.

[steane]

Big call JC! In fact a very serious indightment coming from one of the best LR mechanics in the country.

If this is the case then no one buy a Ford Ranger or Mazda BT50 to replace their puma either.

My understanding is that apart from engine/gearbox, the only difference to driveline from previous Defenders is the rear diff? The problematic adapter shaft links the tried and true transfer case to new getrag gearbox. Once lubed or replaced no more problem?

Can I ask, what are the consistent puma engine / gearbox problems you're finding?

All Defenders have driveline clunk, all need HD flanges and rear axles at some point. All Defenders are prone to quirky behaviour, all have had factory issues and all 4WDs have their failings.

...How do puma electrics compare to problematic TD5 elecs for example?

DMax might be a great light duty work ute with a sweet engine but they look pretty flimsy as a long term rough country proposition to me.

Pumas must be really bad for you to come to this conclusion JC.

Ashcroft will tell you that the transfer in pumas is variable in quality at best.

My Defender does not have any driveline clunking. The 300tdi a friend bought last year that was original with 200k kms on it had no driveline clunking. The 2.2 Puma i had for a week a while back was great, but not as nice to drive as any of the 300tdis ive driven. More power but very hard to drive smoothly and way too much backlash in driveline to ever consider acceptable.

It was brand new...

Would still like to have it though, plenty to like about it.

[Pickles2]

I have developed a list for these later models which now includes an Ashcroft ATB for the transfer case and a removal and lube of the yrans adapter in the same job. Next a change and inspection of the diff oils at 10k service. ANY sign of silver and we'll look closely at loose crosspins in the front diff and premature bearing failure for the rear diff ( p38a only in 110 and 130) and crosspin issues with the rear diff in a 90. Also a complete tightening of every suspension bush/ bolt and wheel bearing service/ change to oil lube hubs.

Jc
"Mechanically Hopeless" here, what is an "Ashroft ATB for the transfer case",...more particularly, what is an "ATB"?
Thanks, Pickles.

[Disco Muppet]

An ATB is an automatic torque biasing differential. Kind of like an LSD but instead of using friction plates it uses helically cut gears.
Ashcroft developed one to replace the centre diff in the lt230. If for no other reason, I'd fit one to eliminate backlash and strengthen the transfer case, particularly on a puma. But they also make things like fast gravel a delight to drive on I'm told.


http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/diy-rebuild-kits/lt230-rebuild-kits/ashcroft-lt230-atb-diff.html

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[rgty_kmj]

My March 2012 build 110 is too clonking away nicely at 43000 kms.

I too will be keen to get the Ashcroft MT82 Output shaft kit

but it looks like there are none in stock
Ashcroft Transmissions (www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/mt82-output-shaft-kit.html)

(maybe heaps of people with this problem have the overwhelmed supply??)

Kerry

[cuppabillytea]

My Puma is an October 2013 build. It started service on Christmas eve 2013. I haven't been kind or respectful to her at all, apart from the yearly service and a twice yearly, or after severe mudding, wash and polish. She's had a few blown charged air hoses, the mandatory fuel tank issues and a few whacks. 43,000 Ks down the road now, but so far nothing in the drive train has broken. I suppose I'll just keep flogging her until something goes bang and then fit the Ashcroft gear.

[PAT303]

I said "Frankenstein" from the perspective of putting parts together that have little engineering input. I am an engineer and been involved in many engineering designs.
LR obviously did not have design funds for defender and therefore quickly took parts from existing pile and adapted them.
Why do you think the bonnet has a bulge? They had to place the engine higher to line up the drivetrain.
Anyway I still like my defender and will fix the drivetrain design flaws with Ashcroft and hand the car to my son as I was about to sell it and he put his hand up.

The adapter is not under engineered,it's under lubed :o,now that I've said that we will leave it or we'll have the worst thread drift possible :p. Pat

[YOLO110]

106600

Attached is Photo of the culprit, was changed about a year ago...

I have looked at the photo's many times... and every time I do I come to the same observation...

Grease or no grease, the actual DEPTH of the grooves look far too shallow to me! As do the height of the tongues on the output shaft.

Whilst there are a lot of interface sections, it seems that the interface area is small, especially considering the load transfer forces that are exerted each way. Would it not be a much better and totally robust design if the depth of the grooves and height of the tongues was increased...?

Or am I missing an engineering issue with this? Obviously there is a maximum height/depth given the rotational circumference restrictions... but what I see just 'looks' rather puny and I am not surprised we have failure at this point...

Thoughts? :confused:

[ramblingboy42]

A spline is far stronger and normally more durable than a spigot.

Without being mean you are missing an engineering issue.

A spline is usually used where good radial power is transmitted in a fixed position....a spigot is used where the power is transmitted radially and laterally.....however both should still be lubricated.

A spigot will always have more backlash than a spline.....unless worn of course.

[YOLO110]

Ok! I am not an engineer so thanks for the input.

Curious, when does a spline become a spigot? Is it not possible to increase the depths of the design and would that not spread the loads to eliminate this fretting to failure issue?

[JDNSW]

No, as pointed out, the problem is lack of lubrication. The area is actually quite large - each tooth is small, but there are a lot of them, and they are fairly long. And they are at a relatively large radius, which reduces the load per tooth. Compare to the spline on the other end, inside the transfer case, which has the same load. Fewer but deeper splines, I suspect you will find though that this one has a larger contact area, mainly because it is on a larger diameter, as well as a lower load.

Perhaps worth pointing out that a similar problem in the same position has arisen many years ago with the drive to the Fairey overdrive on Series Landrovers! This has a very similar spline! And also is prone to a lack of lubrication.

John

[justinc]

Big call JC! In fact a very serious indightment coming from one of the best LR mechanics in the country.

If this is the case then no one buy a Ford Ranger or Mazda BT50 to replace their puma either.

My understanding is that apart from engine/gearbox, the only difference to driveline from previous Defenders is the rear diff? The problematic adapter shaft links the tried and true transfer case to new getrag gearbox. Once lubed or replaced no more problem?

Can I ask, what are the consistent puma engine / gearbox problems you're finding?

All Defenders have driveline clunk, all need HD flanges and rear axles at some point. All Defenders are prone to quirky behaviour, all have had factory issues and all 4WDs have their failings.

...How do puma electrics compare to problematic TD5 elecs for example?

DMax might be a great light duty work ute with a sweet engine but they look pretty flimsy as a long term rough country proposition to me.

Pumas must be really bad for you to come to this conclusion JC.

Well firstly i am getting really uncomfortable with people sticking me up on some pedastal. I am not some kind of messiah. I make plenty of mistakes and like all of us I'm only human. So we'll leave that kind of misdirected praise for someone that deserves it thanks.

I've already outlined some of the issues i come across regularly and I'll add that the puma lt230 isn't the same quality as the td5 and earlier. In fact the last 2015 case i fitted an ATB to it had an even weaker designed centre diff design. The engine issue i mentioned is centered around a design fault with the piston cooling jets (PCJs) failing to open under high flow / high pressure situations like cold starts. This would reduce lubrication for piston skirts on first start up and eventually cause piston failure. This was documented quite a bit in the uk and was addressed on a case by case basis. New engines were fitted sometimes well within the warranty period and the new design PCJs are quite different. All engines after MY2009 had the revised jets fitted and that was the end of the problem. I had one fail here and there was NO way i could get anyone from LR to listen. After week 5 the customer agreed we were not going to get any kind of resolution so i rebuilt the engine and he just had to pay. Now I KNOW that this was the cause however trying to convince anyone at LRA that it was was a complete waste of time. I'm still dirty about this.

The Dmax may suit my towing and work needs 100% and been totally free of problems after 60000km and 2 years so far but it has no soul. It is like driving a piece of whitegoods . I have still got my 110 and love it to bits and will most likely be buried in it... plus i get to drive lots of interesting landies every day so that makes up for it i reckon.

So in conclusion i still stand by my comments and I'm quite happy to expand on them as i find more issues in the years to come....


Jc ☺

[101 Ron]

Landrover still has not learnt from the mistakes which gave the game away to the Japs in the early 1970s.
The TDI/R380 marry up from the early 1990s had the same problem as does the drive flanges on the hubs............nothing has changed in reliability.
Salisbury diffs are now replaced by weaker rover diffs which the Salisbury replaced as the rover ones were too weak.
I loved my defender for its road holding and suspension etc.
I kept my uncomfortable 101 landrover as the flanges are bigger and oil lubricated,bigger axles,Salisbury front and rear, bigger C/Vs etc.
Landrover had it sused out in 1970.
It's the same old story with English motor vehicles,produce something brilliant and then just keep following up with the same mistakes.
They just just can not be bothered.

The 101 Landy will be still around for another forty years on its original drive line splines.

[jon3950]

I am not some kind of messiah.

You are the Messiah. I should know, I've followed a few.



Sorry, someone had to say it.

[Disco Muppet]

No he's not, he's a very naughty boy.
Who's penance is fixing dodgy British 4wds :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[PAT303]

Hang on and lets back track a bit to add some context,Defenders have problems,but so does everything else,the difference is the defender fix's are cheap and easy and LR are good at honoring the warranty.We are not replacing entire suspension systems,doing GVM upgrades,re-valving auto's etc so the vehicles can do what the manufacturer said they can do,we are getting adapters fixed at LR cost and replacing $100 worth of axle flanges,besides that we do not have sticky threads containing 1500 posts relating to seized motors,oil burning motors,chronic injector problems and monthly safety recalls.We know what goes wrong,it's very well documented,just fix the common ones and if more happens well find it,fix it and post on here to add to our knowledge,looking over the posts there isn't much to worry about :cool:. Pat








PS. Some say under his beard theirs another arm holding a spanner,and his blood is 15w 40,all I know he's called JC :wasntme:. Pat

[MR LR]

I said "Frankenstein" from the perspective of putting parts together that have little engineering input. I am an engineer and been involved in many engineering designs.
LR obviously did not have design funds for defender and therefore quickly took parts from existing pile and adapted them.
Why do you think the bonnet has a bulge? They had to place the engine higher to line up the drivetrain.
Anyway I still like my defender and will fix the drivetrain design flaws with Ashcroft and hand the car to my son as I was about to sell it and he put his hand up.
I'm going to correct you on that one...

The 2.2 is a very tall engine, it was placed high in order to clear the front axle (it is not designed for a vehicle with a live front axle). That is why they have the bonnet bulge...

That is also why the whole driveline is raised at the front, which by extension is why the input shafts wear because they are not oil bathed as in an earlier LT230 (they didn't raise the fill plug), that is also why the front tailshaft is so close to it's maximum operating angle when at rest.

Basically, the 2007 onwards defender, is actually the bodgiest, thrown together, **** poor excuse for a Land Rover, that Land Rover have ever made.

- The vent holes in the firewall were removed to fit better AC (they didn't even change the pressing, so they look to be missing something [like their best feature]).
- The engine was raised and a glorified hot rod bonnet scoop fitted to cover that.
- The driveline was raked to fit the engine, which caused the myriad of other issues.
- The rear diff is a total POS, from a total POS.
- The rear seat shares more with a D2 seat than most other D2 seats.
- The dash is straight out of a D3.
- The sunroof is straight out of a 1993 NAS Defender.
Do I need to go on?

It's a serious parts bin special. I could put a better vehicle together out of what is in my shed. And I'd probably have more money tied up in R&D than Land Rover did for the whole Puma project.

Give me a Td5 Defender, with all the Td5 niggles any day, at least very few of them put you on a tow truck. Especially with under 350,000km on the vehicle...

[karlz]

I'm going to correct you on that one...

...

Thread out of control. Stay focused :)

Look at title of this thread.

[justinc]

Goodness yes sorry it has got a fair bit OT. My apologies to Mr Pickles2.

Jc ☺

[MR LR]

Thread out of control. Stay focused :)

Look at title of this thread.
Sorry!

Forgot to mention how bad the MT82 is :p :wasntme:

But seriously, apologies for the hyjack...

[slug_burner]

Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.

[Jock The Rock]

Please delete

[jackdef90]

Sorry!

Forgot to mention how bad the MT82 is :p :wasntme:

But seriously, apologies for the hyjack...

Why is MT 82 box bad, it's a ****load better than an R380, the last and only td5 I drove was miles worse to shift than my 2010, plus it's got it has a history of problems probably worse than the ford unit.
Has a 6th gear great for long distance, and 1st is a fair bit lower so good for 4x4, defenders are used for overland and offroad so it definately suits one.
If a V8 mustang uses it can handle the defenders torque with ease.

[1nando]

Everything post 2012 when the 2.2 came in has pretty much been rectified and sorted. Most problems occured early in the 2.4s and were addressed under recalls by LR.

[Pickles2]

Why is MT 82 box bad, it's a ****load better than an R380, the last and only td5 I drove was miles worse to shift than my 2010, plus it's got it has a history of problems probably worse than the ford unit.
Has a 6th gear great for long distance, and 1st is a fair bit lower so good for 4x4, defenders are used for overland and offroad so it definately suits one.
If a V8 mustang uses it can handle the defenders torque with ease.
Yes, I like the Defender gearbox too.
The 6 speed is great on the road, 100kph in 6th at 2000rpm is ideal. I find the shift pretty good too,...1st to 2nd is a bit "clicky", but it's not a worry. Haven't had a manual G.B. for a while, & I'm quite enjoying using this one.
Pickles.

[kogvos]

Everything is wrong with my Defender. But that's exactly what's so right about it.

[jimr1]

Why is MT 82 box bad, it's a ****load better than an R380, the last and only td5 I drove was miles worse to shift than my 2010, plus it's got it has a history of problems probably worse than the ford unit.
Has a 6th gear great for long distance, and 1st is a fair bit lower so good for 4x4, defenders are used for overland and offroad so it definately suits one.
If a V8 mustang uses it can handle the defenders torque with ease.
I did read on google that the MT 82 gearbox in the Mustang is made in China , and the MT 82 in the Defender is made in the North of England . The Mustang had had there share of problems !!.. Jim

[rar110]

I did read on google that the MT 82 gearbox in the Mustang is made in China , and the MT 82 in the Defender is made in the North of England . The Mustang had had there share of problems !!.. Jim

Maybe the mustang assembly line accidentally got a batch of UK made boxes. 👹

[PAT303]

Why is MT 82 box bad, it's a ****load better than an R380, the last and only td5 I drove was miles worse to shift than my 2010, plus it's got it has a history of problems probably worse than the ford unit.
Has a 6th gear great for long distance, and 1st is a fair bit lower so good for 4x4, defenders are used for overland and offroad so it definately suits one.
If a V8 mustang uses it can handle the defenders torque with ease.

Just to add to this post,in the USA the mustang guys are rebuilding their ''Chinese MT82's'' with ''British MT82'' internals and are getting good life out of them,they are only modifying them,re-heat treating the shafts and gears when they mod the motors and only go to purpose built Tremec's when they go the whole hog and build track cars.Just to add a few facts to the discussion. Pat

[justinc]

Everything post 2012 when the 2.2 came in has pretty much been rectified and sorted. Most problems occured early in the 2.4s and were addressed under recalls by LR.

Sorry i totally disagree. With the exception of clutches which i think they may finally have sorted the transfer case and adapter shaft and general poor build and QC still exists.

Jc

[1nando]

Sorry i totally disagree. With the exception of clutches which i think they may finally have sorted the transfer case and adapter shaft and general poor build and QC still exists.

Jc

I know other reputable LR mechaincs/workshops who would disagree with your thoughts. So lets agree to disagree ;)

[justinc]

I know other reputable LR mechaincs/workshops who would disagree with your thoughts. So lets agree to disagree ;)

Agreed. ☺

Jc ☺

[jon3950]

With the exception of clutches which i think they may finally have sorted......

See if you can guess what the one problem I am having is. :D

Cheers,
Jon

[Wallaby Ted]

Anyway for the OP

If he needs a MT82 Output shaft from Ashcrofts they now have them back in stock.


Richard


My March 2012 build 110 is too clonking away nicely at 43000 kms.

I too will be keen to get the Ashcroft MT82 Output shaft kit

but it looks like there are none in stock
Ashcroft Transmissions (www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/mt82-output-shaft-kit.html)

(maybe heaps of people with this problem have the overwhelmed supply??)

Kerry

[justinc]

See if you can guess what the one problem I am having is. :D

Cheers,
Jon

😕 Sorry to hear.

I rest my case your honour....😮

Jc ☺

[Pickles2]

Anyway for the OP

If he needs a MT82 Output shaft from Ashcrofts they now have them back in stock.


Richard
Thanks Ted.
At this time, I'm going to trust ULR. They've probably ordered the new bits by now anyway. Obviously the Ashcroft item is very good, but I'd like to think (hope!) that with a new shaft, properly greased & fitted, I should have no further problems in that area.
Pickles.

[incisor]

Ever the optimist Mr Pickles....

Hope it goes to plan for you

[Pedro_The_Swift]

wont you have to regrease it at intervals?

[Wallaby Ted]

I spoke with Greg Tunstall at Cleveland about mine needing replacing before doing a trip in Central Australia in June/July and we came to the conclusion that it was better to go with the Ashcrofts replacement rather than the stock one so I don't need to worry about it for a long time.

I hope yours works out for you.

Richard

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[cuppabillytea]

I hope it works for you too Pickles.

Biddy has gone in for another charged air leak to be fixed. I told them, amongst other things, to check the adaptor shaft for wear. If it is I will have them replace it but I will be ordering an Ashcroft to keep on stand by, or perhaps just put it straight in.

[Lagerfan]

...I told them, amongst other things, to check the adaptor shaft for wear.

Any idea what sort of job it is to pull it out and check? As in hours and difficulty? Guessing it isn't trivial or they would do it at service.

[cuppabillytea]

Any idea what sort of job it is to pull it out and check? As in hours and difficulty? Guessing it isn't trivial or they would do it at service.
That's their problem. I'll just drive around in their loan car whilst they carry on the good work.

[Andrew86]

It's a serious parts bin special.

The Defender is just a huge Meccano set, of course it's a parts bin special. Personally, I'm glad they 'ruined' the Defender with air conditioning, a more modern dashboard and a sweet bonnet bulge :cool:

My 110 has been back to the dealership twice in the 4 weeks I've had it, and for some reason I don't love it any less for it.

[Pickles2]

Just spoken to ULR, job's done, new shaft etc, & B Service done.
Karen & I will pick her up in the morning, at which time I shall report back to you guys.
Thanks, Pickles.

[Lagerfan]

That's their problem. I'll just drive around in their loan car whilst they carry on the good work.

Those of us out of warranty have no such luck...

[cuppabillytea]

Those of us out of warranty have no such luck...

No. In your case,or you shoes, I would bite the Bullet and put the Ashcroft one in. Sorry I don't know what it would cost but I reckon it would save much more. The peace if mind that would follow?....Priceless.

[Lagerfan]

No. In your case,or you shoes, I would bite the Bullet and put the Ashcroft one in. Sorry I don't know what it would cost but I reckon it would save much more. The peace if mind that would follow?....Priceless.

Yep it feels weird to have had 3+ years of worry free motoring to now having this niggling in the back of my mind every time we head out. It seems to me the lucky ones are those that have it fail early and get it fixed by LR - assuming it is done properly.

You're right, will probably bite the bullet and get the Ashcroft one, why I'm curious about ballpark effort/cost to whip out the old one. I expect this would be a real challenge to do myself given my cack-handedness!

[cuppabillytea]

Yep it feels weird to have had 3+ years of worry free motoring to now having this niggling in the back of my mind every time we head out. It seems to me the lucky ones are those that have it fail early and get it fixed by LR - assuming it is done properly.

You're right, will probably bite the bullet and get the Ashcroft one, why I'm curious about ballpark effort/cost to whip out the old one. I expect this would be a real challenge to do myself given my cack-handedness!

It would be for me too, in an open driveway. Then there would be the Missus saying "Why are you doing that? It's a new car!!!". It would still be worth the pain I reckon.:BigThumb:

[AndyG]

U go camping with some parts but no missus :angel:

[YOLO110]

Just spoken to ULR, job's done, new shaft etc, & B Service done.
Karen & I will pick her up in the morning, at which time I shall report back to you guys.
Thanks, Pickles.

Good news mate!

Any chance you can take some photos of the 'failed' part (s) please?

I will be most interested to hear exactly what they have done in the repair, including whether they greased the output shaft if that was the culprit?

I am sure you will indeed provide us with as much info as possible!

Looking forward to reports... and you can start your drive again too! :cool:

Cheers, P

[Wallaby Ted]

Glad to hear your getting yours back.

For those interested in the time it takes I have been quoted 3-4 hours.

Will find out when the new shaft arrives and I actually book it in.


Richard

[AndyG]

Next year, when i go whole hog and replace the drive line with Ashcroft goodies, i am going to put this in the transmission tunnel/ under the ex box

Zero Clearance is a premium quality peel and stick heat shield material, under body engine bay heat (http://www.carbuilders.com.au/zero-clearance)

If the transfer case is already out, i presume it would only be an extra hour to pull the gearbox, or do they come out together ?

[cafe latte]

Have you driven it yet, is there less play?
Cheers
Chris

[Pickles2]

Good News, We got Gracie back today, all done, ULR appear to have a neat job, and there is much less slack between gearchanges, still a little, but I guess that comes from other parts of the transmission.
So, Thank You to ULR, Bernie, Stuart, & Rachel, for looking after Gracie,..also got the B Service done while she was there.
ULR have a fairly big service area, & they are FLAT OUT, cars EVERYWHERE, & I mean everywhere. After they'd repaired Gracie, they put her into a corner of the P.D. area, out of the way, with tyres in front of her!
All is good, Pickles.

[PAT303]

There will always be ''play'' in the defender drivetrain,by the time the power goes through two gearbox's and three diffs there's a little slop there.Pickles,have you replaced the flanges?. Pat

[Pickles2]

There will always be ''play'' in the defender drivetrain,by the time the power goes through two gearbox's and three diffs there's a little slop there.Pickles,have you replaced the flanges?. Pat
No, haven't done anything at all. I've heard about "flanges"!!...I've already admitted to being mechanically hopeless, so what's the story on them?!
Thanks, Pickles.

[1nando]

No, haven't done anything at all. I've heard about "flanges"!!...I've already admitted to being mechanically hopeless, so what's the story on them?!
Thanks, Pickles.

Aulro is notorious for BS advice and opinions.....wasnt me....so you have to consider modifications and do some serious research before considering whether or not they should be done.

Anyway Pat is 100% right and just trust me that changing to HD flanges is a cheap and probably the best mod you can do to your puma. Adding HD flanges and converting to oil lubed axels is a no brainer. I also found that my so called "rear diff" backlash magically dissappeared.

[Wallaby Ted]

Look at:

Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/drive-flanges.html)

Postage was only an extra 6GBP to ship 2 pair with the MT82 output shaft.

Richard

[4wheeler]

Picked up my Defender today after warranty repairs.

The dealer removed the transfer case and inspected the adaptor shaft as I requested since the gearbox was coming out anyway. The dealer stated that the splines were lubricated but not sufficient for long term longevity. They lubricated the splines with the required grease. At 22,000km there was no wear apparently. Early 2013 Defender

Very happy my the local dealer service as well. Given gearbox out, front axle seals and other jobs done, everything looks as it should, nothing missing and everything tight. Certainly beats the time a 4x4 was returned to me (not a Landrover) with 4 of 10 gearbox bolts done to slightly better than finger tight and the rest just finger tight in the bolt holes!

It is sad to walk into a dealer or drive past one and not see any new Defenders on the lot.

[JDNSW]

No, haven't done anything at all. I've heard about "flanges"!!...I've already admitted to being mechanically hopeless, so what's the story on them?!
Thanks, Pickles.

The spline where the drive axles go into the flanges on the outside of the wheel hubs can be subject to exactly the same sort of wear as with the coupling between the gearbox and transfer case if there is no lubrication.

But they are easier and cheaper to fix and dead easy to see if there is a problem - remove the hubcap - if the spline is slightly oily, no problem. If there is no signs of oil or grease - you may have a problem. If there are signs of rust - alarm bells.

You can, as a preventive measure, periodically lubricate them, or change the hub lubrication to oil instead of grease, which also is likely to guarantee against bearing failure, or fit aftermarket axles and flanges, or all of the above.

(The hubs were originally oil lubricated, but changed to grease some time this century I believe to prevent oil leaks. May have done that, but flange and bearing failures have become much more common. On my 1986 110, now approaching 600,000km, I have replaced one flange, and it still has all the original wheel bearings. Lost count of how many seals I have replaced!)

John

[PAT303]

No, haven't done anything at all. I've heard about "flanges"!!...I've already admitted to being mechanically hopeless, so what's the story on them?!
Thanks, Pickles.

Pickles,just look on ebay,defender axle flanges,takes 10mins to fit them and your set. Pat

[spudfan]

The Defender handbook states
"Gearbox extension shaft to transfer box" - Weicon Anti Seize Standard Grade or equivalent.
I presume this is the shaft being discussed. If so this indicates that the shaft should not be fitted dry.
Commiserations on your mishap but I'm glad to see all is well again. It should not have happened in the first place but hopefully the drama is over now.
A number of years ago I lost all drive on a 200 tdi 110 station wagon while about to take off at traffic lights on a busy junction. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

[justinc]

The Defender handbook states
"Gearbox extension shaft to transfer box" - Weicon Anti Seize Standard Grade or equivalent.
I presume this is the shaft being discussed. If so this indicates that the shaft should not be fitted dry.
Commiserations on your mishap but I'm glad to see all is well again. It should not have happened in the first place but hopefully the drama is over now.
A number of years ago I lost all drive on a 200 tdi 110 station wagon while about to take off at traffic lights on a busy junction. I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

Hi Spud yes i have seen this stuff WEICON Anti-Seize Standard Grade | High-performance assembly paste and spray (http://www.weicon.com/pages/en/products/anti-seize/anti-seize-standard.php) on all of the ones i have replaced. Good thing i have good eyesight to spot the $ saving microgram spot of it on there during factory assembly. 😠.

By the time the vehicle is driven off the assembly line it'll nearly be starting to wear...😣

[spudfan]

:Rolling::BigThumb:

[YOLO110]

So...

IF I have a doubt that my drive has not been assembled with grease, can I expect my dealer to strip it down to find out under warrantee?

Or am I going to get 'if it's not broke we are not going to look'...?

Given this is a few hours of worship time, I am getting quite confused about what to do here... because my Defender back lashes like I gather they all do!

Help please! :confused::confused:

[AndyG]

If there has been no recall, then no. Your dependent on the Dealers goodwill.
Keep an on the rear main seal, it will probably start to leak like mine did, then your in like Flynn

[spudfan]

Considering that the Defender is not produced in large volumes you'd think Land Rover would just do a recall and inspect the shaft and lubricate/replace where necessary.
Other manufacturers have had to recall hundreds of thousands of vehicles so the cost to Land Rover would be miniscule in the overall view of recalls.
Our 2008 Puma has close to 130,000 kms on the clock and still on the original shaft. I've had two clutches fitted, one under warranty. I do not know whether the shaft was checked/greased during the operation.
It does have the potential to be dangerous. Imagine failing to ascend a steep slope and having to reverse down. Imagine selecting low range, selecting reverse then bang no drive when you lift your foot. You'd have a spectacularly uncontrolled hill descent...in reverse.:o
Can't see Land Rover bothering with this issue as they are focused on other things and the Defender is at last out of their hair.

[51mondays]

So...

IF I have a doubt that my drive has not been assembled with grease, can I expect my dealer to strip it down to find out under warrantee?

Or am I going to get 'if it's not broke we are not going to look'...?

Given this is a few hours of worship time, I am getting quite confused about what to do here... because my Defender back lashes like I gather they all do!

Help please! :confused::confused:

yeah i'm in the same boat with my first service coming up in a month or so. Lagerfan mentioned they remembered a bulletin being issued by LR about greasing the shaft - i'm not sure what that means in official LR-speak but suggests maybe it should be done under warranty - might get hold of Lance Dixon and see if they can shed some light

[justinc]

Some last some don't. Have a 51,000km old 90 in here with a stripped shaft towed in yesterday. I have been stocking these parts on the shelf now because we are doing quite a few....


Jc

[PAT303]

So...

IF I have a doubt that my drive has not been assembled with grease, can I expect my dealer to strip it down to find out under warrantee?

Or am I going to get 'if it's not broke we are not going to look'...?

Given this is a few hours of worship time, I am getting quite confused about what to do here... because my Defender back lashes like I gather they all do!

Help please! :confused::confused:

I strongly,and I mean STRONGLY recommend you pay the money and dealer service your vehicle,the reason being it tends to make warranty easier and butters the bread so to speak regarding little issue's like this.I personally would talk to the service manager about this,he'd know already and might decide greasing it now is better than replacing it later.Mines in getting it's major,it's going to cost me $1300 but I've had three warranty repairs,one out of warranty and all three were done no questions asked and two came with a free loan car,you scratch their back,they'll scratch yours.
And whatever you do spend the $100 and buy axle flanges,or drive members as the Poms call them. Pat

[PAT303]

yeah i'm in the same boat with my first service coming up in a month or so. Lagerfan mentioned they remembered a bulletin being issued by LR about greasing the shaft - i'm not sure what that means in official LR-speak but suggests maybe it should be done under warranty - might get hold of Lance Dixon and see if they can shed some light

There has been a bulletin out about it yes,I was shown it when mine was in for a replacement,LR know all about it. Pat

[YOLO110]

And whatever you do spend the $100 and buy axle flanges,or drive members as the Poms call them. Pat

Which ones (make) would you go for Pat?

I happen to be in the UK atm... lots of options available here having Googled!

Cheers!

[Disco Muppet]

Maxi Drive or Ashcroft :)

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[PAT303]

Which ones (make) would you go for Pat?

I happen to be in the UK atm... lots of options available here having Googled!

Cheers!

I've fitted everything from the cheapest to the dearest,makes no difference IMHO.I have Maxi drive on the Tdi and Britpart on the TDCi,no difference except the Britparts were half the price. Pat