Disco 2 - no start

[ozscott]

Hi guys,

The joy of long term LR ownership continues.

Disco 2 manual trans. Running well except for intermittent rough idle and a bit low on power. Stalled one day when reversing into a car park - at revs it would not normally stall at. Then hard re-start - took 10 seconds of spinning to start. Then ran fine.

Replace MAF with genuine. No change except for a little increase in overall power but still a bit down and still intermittment rough idle. No starting problems.

Day of MAF replacement occasional rough idle and went to back into a car park. Same stall and then no re-start at all.

Does not seem to have spark. I cannot hear the fuel pump unless shorting the under bonnet pump relay...with pump running while shorting it still will not fire.

It had a new crank angle sensor (genuine bosch) about 8,000k ago but I am thinking it could be that (does a failed crank sensor cause fuel pump to remain off as well as no spark???)....

Could it be the underbonnet or underdash fuse box (have checked all fuses in both)?? OR at a last guess ECU?

Grateful for any suggestions

Cheers

[Eevo]

CAS?

[ozscott]

I think it might well be Evo. Justin posted up a while ago - I just read his post where the fuel pump will not work AND no spark when CAS goes out to lunch...seems odd that a new genuine one would so so within 10,000k but I suppose if they are going to fail then they might fail quickly. I will have to put my old known good one (260,000k...) in and see what happens. Can you do the swap without removing manifolding? Also what is the easiest way to unplug?

Cheers

[ozscott]

So...weather cover held on by one bolt and cover is loose...what's the bet water from the water crossings i did 2 months ago had got in there (or oil...!!)
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/803.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

there is a bit of oil around--:p
may I ask where from?:angel::lol2:

and I would NOT have expected a new one to fail so soon,, or ever, really.:o

[ozscott]

Pedro its a Land Rover.

Cheers

[justinc]

Ive seen them do 200k+ even soaked in oil and coolant leaks...😮 still it does sound like CAS to me....

Jc

[Pedro_The_Swift]

mines just about dripless after the last million I threw at it,,:rolleyes:
I have a small (5 year old now) seep from the ACE pump which the visc fan tends to move around a bit,, but its just not worth fixing;)

[ozscott]

Million dollars? ;)

Thanks Justin. I think so too. I have read RAVE on them and sudden stall and also no restart is typical. I might have just got a dud.

Of course RAVE did not contemplate fuse box PCB failures and I suppose it could be that. My parts guy says he sells every box he gets from wrecks...

Cheers

[Battler]

Would the CAS cause the rough idle and loss of power? Maybe two things going on; MAF and CAS?

[ozscott]

Hi mate. It could be although there are some threads on US sites that show some rough running associated with it before complete failure to proceed.

Cheers

[ozscott]

Hi all...got under the truck and took off the cover...no oil inside. Removed the crank position sensor - looked like new (...it is new...) and then replaced it with the old (known good) one....AND...dadarhh...no change :( Same - spins over and does not fire.

So apart from changing the underbonnet fuse box any ideas?

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Fuel pressure?

[ozscott]

I wondered that Peter, but unless you short circut the connector for the fuel pump relay in the under bonnet fuse box you cannot hear the fuel pump at all...and no spark on cranking. So whatever it is is stopping/not starting fuel pump and stopping/not starting coil pulses....

Cheers

[schuy1]

Nearly has to be in the fuse box somewhere... Checked all the engine fuses? and the fusible links? Does all the right dash lights appear? Is the cable connector snug in the ecu? Relays energizing for fuel,etc? Is there any way you can swap coils for others? or maybe check that they are receiving power? Never had anything to do with a petrol D2 so Im just doing a general run down of stuff. Certainly a puzzle.
Cheers Scott

[discorevy]

bcu , immobiliser related? . tried keys out lock/ unlock try again. Is the dash immobiliser light going out with ign on.? Wiring to cas?

[ozscott]

Thanks gents. Going to check wiring to CPS...smells like a CPS fault...
Could be broken PCB somewhere. I do wonder somwtimes about owning a computer run vehicle at 14 years... Perhaps i need to go Isuzu powered County

[Pedro_The_Swift]

both coil packs wont fail at the same time,, so you should get at least 4 firing.
There is a fuel line pressure test valve at the back of the engine,, its just a schrader valve,, so a small screwdriver would work,, leave Ign on for more than 5 secs and cover your eyes!!;)

[ballbag]

Agree symptoms sound like crank angle sensor, except for non operating fuel pump.

Once all security signals are received by BCU/ECU, ECU should supply earth path for main relay, which then supplies fuel pump relay.

Your fuel pump works when bridging its own relay so problem points to main relay, which may also explain no spark condition.

So check main earth, then follow wiring diagram for main relay power and fusible links and check applicable connections, fuses, links.

For certanty you can check crank angle sensor in situ with multimeter. Disconnect from harness, whack a probe in each sensor wire, have monkey crank motor, should read 3-7V AC.

Immobilised condition seems unlikely given gradual nature of the failure. Bad earth or main power supply seems to fit symptoms.

[sierrafery]

Did you try to rule out the main relay though, cos if the pump runs only with bypassed relay or the relay is fubar'd or it doesnt get feed on the coil from main relay so swap relays R9(main) with R8(heated screen) just to rule it out, also unplug and bridge pins in the inertia switch's connector to rule that out too... the crank sensor won't stop the pump running

[Roverlord off road spares]

Did you try to rule out the pump and main relays though, cos if the pump runs only with bypassed relay or the relay is fubar'd or it doesnt get feed on the coil from main relay so swap relays R1(pump) with R3(headlamp wash) and R9(main) with R8(heated screen) just to rule them out, also unplug and bridge pins in the inertia switch's connector to rule that out too... the crank sensor won't stop the pump running
Beat me to it, I was going to say try the inertia switch
Cheers, Mario

PS do you have a Nanocom? if you do try going into to BCU and select Learn Security. You never know there might of been a glitch and it's shutting you out from starting.
When I replaced an ECU, it would crank but not start. After learn security it started.

pps Re your original rough running, did you pull the plugs to see if they were fouled, crook O2 sensors can cause fueling probs also.

[ballbag]

Thought inertia switch had been mentioned. Yes, definitely bridge it.

[ozscott]

OK - my mechanic had a win. Body Control Unit - swapped over and now engine fires and runs fine...

It may be not a common fault...

Cheers

[discorevy]

Common enough , that's why I suggested it , have done a couple in the last two years, luckily I keep a couple from wrecks to test with

[ozscott]

Thanks mate good call. Presumably a dodgy circuit caused the 2 stalls I experienced also - interrupted signal for ignition?

Anyway in addition to firing up and getting on with it, does it need some sort of re-programming?

Cheers

[ozscott]

I also doubt my 1668 code from December 2015 is unrelated...

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/229135-code-1668-a.html

Cheers

[ballbag]

That's disappointing and worrying.

[ozscott]

Mate it's a 14 year old computer tower on wheels...pcb boards fail in computers at work a lot sooner...and they are subject to less stress. So it's expected to happen some time. What is worrying however is that it could happen to any 4wd over about 10 years of age with a computer at any time in the middle of butt **** and you've got a pretty face...

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

They supposedly need syncing to the car on installation,,
after that you're good to go.

I havent heard of any needing replacement due to failure before yours,,,

would be interesting to put the old one back in and re-sync it,, just curious,,;)

dont you love the lock-in plug system!!:cool:

[ozscott]

I'm not sure it should have started and ran with a new BCU without recoding the key fobs etc...the mechanic might have programmed it I don't know.

Also wouldn't the BCU hold the mileage of the vehicle it came from?

Cheers

[ozscott]

Although perhaps there is no need to program...what follows is from RAVE

The IDM communicates with the BCU and the instrument pack via a serial interface. If the BCU or the IDM is replaced, the communications link between the two units has to be re-established. This can be done either by switching on the ignition and leaving it on for five minutes, or by using TestBook. The vehicle immobilisation will remain active until the communications link between the BCU and IDM has been re-established.

CHEERS

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Well there you go.:cool:
I thought it had to be done by testbook,,

Oh well, we were passing near Millicent anyway,,;):D

[sierrafery]

Although perhaps there is no need to program...what follows is from RAVE

The IDM communicates with the BCU and the instrument pack via a serial interface. If the BCU or the IDM is replaced, the communications link between the two units has to be re-established. This can be done either by switching on the ignition and leaving it on for five minutes, or by using TestBook. The vehicle immobilisation will remain active until the communications link between the BCU and IDM has been re-established.

CHEERS
That's just to re-establish the data link between them in order to be able to comunicate with the BCU... like some other things this statement from RAVE is inaccurate... that 5 minutes(or less) with ignition on is necessary either way cos untill the communication is not established between the IDM and BCU no tester will communicate with it not even the god of all TestBooks believe me...also the BCU must be programmed for the equipment of the car( fobs, suspension, transmission, etc) and the ECU must learn the new security code ... the BCU will keep the stored mileage just that if you only disable the odometer warning not syncronise it with the instrument pack there will be no problem cos if the mileage stored in the BCU is higher and you syncronise it with the odometer the higher mileage will be displayed

[ozscott]

Cool. Thanks mate. So the keys fobs will still work without recoding them or BCU?

[sierrafery]

Negative

...the BCU must be programmed for the equipment of the car( fobs, suspension, transmission, etc) ...;)

[ozscott]

Missed that thanks. Cheers

[ballbag]

So I've been chasing the source of a wet passenger floor, likely coming in around the air ducts.


Ever have this issue in yours, ozscott?


Might that explain the BCU failure?

[ozscott]

Could be mate. My plenum plastic bottom cover is broken like so many...although my HVAC is constantly on recirculating to avert water coming in.

Cheers

[Roverlord off road spares]

Could be mate. My plenum plastic bottom cover is broken like so many...although my HVAC is constantly on recirculating to avert water coming in.

Cheers
I would check the plastic blanking plate in the tray below the windscreen, this is where water can bank up under heavy rain if it doesn't drain away at the mudguard end drain holes of the tray .

Is the black plastic panel that blanks off where the LHD wiper motor would be installed.

Run some sealant along the seem. I've done it to 3 discos, so it must me a common problem and it lets water into the cabin .

Regards, Mario

[ozscott]

Thanks Mario. So it looks like the fuel pump is intermittently stuffed. Got it running fine with a different BCU. Then stopped but has good spark.

CHEERS

[ballbag]

Re windscreen plenum....

I pulled it out, made a shroud for the air duct from lead flashing, bolted it in with the top 3 pollen filter bolts, and ran Sikaflex around the top. Water leak gone.

[ballbag]

Replace the relay. Sometimes they'll engage but won't handle load.

[ballbag]

Sorry, that was re pump. Phone, fat fingers etc....

[ozscott]

Ok this is getting odd. Replaced fuel pump. Can hear the new one working. Starts and runs for 3-4 second and then stops. When it stops there is no spark at that point. Re-starts fine and runs for 3-4 seconds and stops - no spark...just keeps repeating.

Does this sound like some BCU-ECU comms problem?

Cheers

[ballbag]

Have you replaced the relay?

[Roverlord off road spares]

Ok this is getting odd. Replaced fuel pump. Can hear the new one working. Starts and runs for 3-4 second and then stops. When it stops there is no spark at that point. Re-starts fine and runs for 3-4 seconds and stops - no spark...just keeps repeating.

Does this sound like some BCU-ECU comms problem?

Cheers
Most cars will do this prime for a few seconds , and if a signal is not received that the engine is running will turn off the pump.
sorry can answer you question on the ECU-BCU

[ozscott]

Thanks gents, replaced relay and whole under bonnet fuse box. Cheers

[ozscott]

The pump has plenty of pressure. The BCU has been replaced. The ECU has been replaced...with electronics it could be as simple as a dodgy earth somewhere!!!

Cheers

[ballbag]

Does it start every time!

[ballbag]

Another fat finger....

[ozscott]

Does it start every time!

Sure does mate...I am getting over this thing even though literally the whole car is new (save the wiring...)

Cheers

[ozscott]

Ok i found a UK thread TD5 but EXACTLY the same symptoms. Starts and stops after 3 seconds. Turned out to be a dodgy connection probably at the bonet plug but replacing the green with grey wire between the BCU and ECU - ie bypassing that circuit - did the trick...i am going to try that. I think its not co-incidental.that a few months ago i got.a alarm comms error code...

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

whats an alarms comm error code?

[ozscott]

Pedro 1668. See the link on p3 of this thread. Sierra says its data link between BCU and ECU code...very suspect

Cheers

[ozscott]

Vehicle has now had the BCU, fuel pump, underbonnet fuse box and internal fusebox (with built in IDM) replaced. Wont crank at all but it might just need the ignition being left on for 5 mins to reestablish comms between BCU and IDM or testbook to do the same thing...hopefully it was the last thing done..ie in car fusebox because other stuff allowed it to start and run for a second but then stop. Cheers

[schuy1]

You must be getting close! That is 1 of the most problematic things I have heard of :O Unreal how stubborn its being! heres hoping..
Cheers Scott

[ozscott]

Thanks gents. I am very keen to get her back on the road. Cheers

[sierrafery]

1. ....Starts and stops after 3 seconds.....

2. Vehicle has now had the BCU, fuel pump, underbonnet fuse box and internal fusebox (with built in IDM) replaced.



1. The ECU misses the security code, see attachment(i underlined with red the relevant part),

2. if you replaced the BCU you must make the ECU learn the security code with nanocom, engine UTILITY menu.... if it refuses it means that the engine ECU is the problem and it was from the beginning.

[ozscott]

Mate you are a champion thanks!

[Roverlord off road spares]

1. The ECU misses the security code, see attachment(i underlined with red the relevant part),

2. if you replaced the BCU you must make the ECU learn the security code with nanocom, engine UTILITY menu.... if it refuses it means that the engine ECU is the problem and it was from the beginning.

I mentioned that a few pages ago. "Learn Security"
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2/232922-disco-2-no-start-3.html
Cheers, Mario

[sierrafery]

I mentioned that a few pages ago. "Learn Security"
Yes you did but not entirely correct :cool:


....PS do you have a Nanocom? if you do try going into to BCU and select Learn Security. ....
cos the BCU can't learn security, it stores the code which you must make the engine ECU to learn and this function is within the ECU's programming options not in BCU ;)

[ozscott]

So bottom line is that with TestBook, equivalent or Nanacom this problem can be sorted by the sound of it.

I was concerned about out of the way treks with a fuel pump that had done 300k so happy with preventative replacement and having near new fuse boxes and BCU is also good insurance for a further 10 years.


Cheers

[ozscott]

Ok - now the vehicle knows its 5 speed manual and not an auto (ie different computers from different vehicles) and things are talking to each other as Mr LR planned...yah! It runs!

Cheers

[Eevo]

great news!

[ozscott]

Thanks Evo,

So runs like a dream...new features from new BCU - doors auto lock after moving off and a bong if I leave my keys in the ignition even with lights off and door open (with lights on the bong is the old (and different) sound).

BUT TC and HDC (no ABS) lights are remaining on and my ABS Amigo is not shifting them!!!!! Argh!!! My mechanic says not faults were flagged on his computer...

Cheers

[ozscott]

After some seaching on AULRO it seems it could be the swtich on the steering column...?

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Fantastic to hear its running!!
I'm not sure about this auto locking thing,,
I'm pretty sure mines not switched on?

anybody else run auto-locking( switched-on)?

[ozscott]

Thanks Pedro. It auto delocks all door on ignition off too.

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Thats a lot of clunks! :lol2::p
I'd sell my left one to make it unlock all doors with one press,
yes I know it CAN,,
doesnt stop me from wanting--
;)

[ozscott]

Haha...yes it's not quiet when unlocking and locking from inside!

Cheers

[Wil2k]

Thats a lot of clunks! :lol2::p
I'd sell my left one to make it unlock all doors with one press,
yes I know it CAN,,
doesnt stop me from wanting--
;)


Pedro, I just bought a Nanocom Evo from BBS just to do this! It drove me COMPLETELY INSANE!

(Ok so I found it useful for other stuff too!)

[Roverlord off road spares]

All those features, can be activated and deactivated using nanaocom or a hawkeye.
Bongs on or off, bathrobe locking, single unlock , all unlock etc.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Mario,,
how does your D2 lock/unlock your bathrobe?
:angel:

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Pedro, I just bought a Nanocom Evo from BBS just to do this! It drove me COMPLETELY INSANE!

(Ok so I found it useful for other stuff too!)

Hmm. Brisbane. ^_^

[schuy1]

Mario,,
how does your D2 lock/unlock your bathrobe?
:angel:

Pedro, Do you really want to go there? :eek::eek:;)

[Roverlord off road spares]

Mario,,
how does your D2 lock/unlock your bathrobe?
:angel:
Land Rover call it Bathrobe locking, which is what it is called on nanocom and hawkeye
probably because you do it on cold mornings in your bathrobe.

Acclimatisation related locking
Acclimatisation related locking allows the engine to be started and then the vehicle locked with a spare key and left
unattended to allow the vehicle interior to reach the desired temperature.
There are two configurations for acclimatisation related locking:
l Acclimatisation related locking not active.
l Acclimatisation related locking active.
Once the engine is started, the vehicle is locked with a spare key at the driver's door while the engine is running.
During these conditions the alarm is not armed.
In order to activate acclimatisation related locking the following conditions must be met:
l Engine running.
l All doors closed.

[Eevo]

i actually dont like the auto lock the doors when you drive off.
if your in a crash, there meant to unlock, but they dont always. i attended (as a CFS firefighter) a fatal road crash on monday night. as first responder, all the doors were still locked and i had to break into the car. in this instance it didnt make a difference to the end result but the potential is there.

[Roverlord off road spares]

i actually dont like the auto lock the doors when you drive off.
if your in a crash, there meant to unlock, but they dont always. i attended (as a CFS firefighter) a fatal road crash on monday night. as first responder, all the doors were still locked and i had to break into the car. in this instance it didnt make a difference to the end result but the potential is there.
Auto lock would only be benificial in the USA where car hijacks are common.

[Wil2k]

Hmm. Brisbane. ^_^


Hey Pedro. I'm currently on the Sunshine Coast. Wil PM you.

[ozscott]

My BCU back in and no auto locking and i actually didnt like the bonging going on when the ignition was turned off and the key left in the ignition...the lights on bong is sufficient for me.

Cheers

[Pedro_The_Swift]

decisions decisions,,