ground up or retrofit restore?

[QRS40]

Hi
I am looking for an S1, but find myself struggling to determine a direction- ground up rebuild of an original matching numbers chassis, or acquire a running car that is not fully original (eg motor etc conversion), and retrofit it back to 'period correct' over time [but driving and enjoying it in the mean time].


I am a competent 'tinkerer' but am not an especially gifted mechanic, so a lot of the 'serious' work would need to be farmed out commercially... due to this Im currently leaning towards the 2nd option- however I don't want to be faced with 'its not a real landrover' prejudice down the track..!


Example of a potential car is on carsales currently
1953 Land Rover Rover 80 Manual 4x4 (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/Land-Rover-Rover-1953/SSE-AD-3729736/?Cr=1)


So I suppose my question is that, based on the collective experience here, if I do a retrofit restoration (which will be period correct but highly unlikely to be the actual original engine) will I still be driving "not a true landrover"...? Am I better of in the long term looking for a bare but matching numbers unit, and accepting it will be many years and many $$ before I can drive it...


At the end of the day, my desire is to have an enjoyable car, but also one that is respectable.


I would appreciate any input/opinions. Thanks in advance

[gromit]

You'll get a couple of very different viewpoints to your basic question.

The car you linked to for example. Non-standard colour, galvanised parts painted over, non-standard bullbar, Holden motor, modern tyres the list goes on.
So do you want to drive an early vehicle with all it's foibles or an early vehicle that has been modernised ?

I understand both viewpoints but have chosen to leave my Series I as it was found but I overhauled the brakes, replaced some seals etc.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-i-land-rover-enthusiasts-section/159944-1956-series-1-pto-welder-home-made.html

Personally I'd look for one that is as original & untouched as possible & work from there but this may depend on your budget.
If you decide to get one that is incomplete or non-original you need to take into account that some parts are difficult to obtain and therefore expensive.

Best of luck.

Colin

[grey_ghost]

Hi QRS40,

You have opened up a huge can of worms here - and I'm only offering my own personal opinion, so here goes..

* It depends - do you want an original Land Rover as an future investment?
* If so - then yes, go for original numbers matching car.
* Original cars are very hard to find - because almost all owners tinker with their Land Rovers and "improve" them.
* Then you have the question of period correct modifications - like installing a Series III gearbox in a Series II OR a Holden Engine.
* Technically neither modification is original - but they are common.
* Do you want to restore the car to "as near as showroom condition" as you can?
* Are you doing the restoration for the fun/enjoyment of it?
* In my experience "Series" Land Rovers are not an exact science. For example try and get an definitive answer/date on when Land Rover went from a Series II to a Series IIa - there are different opinions on when that actually happened.
* Based on this - how can you ever know, 100% for sure that your vehicle is 100% correct?
* The term "rivet counter" springs to mind!! :wasntme:
* I had to replace a rear wheel cylinder on my 1961 109 Series II. I discovered that this part is NO LONGER AVAILABLE and I could not find a replacement part anywhere in Australia or in the UK. Every supplier said "Oh - they only made that part for 2 years, they are impossible to get"
* In the end I used Series III backing plates so that I could use Series III wheel cylinders. But now my vehicle is not original/correct specification.
* I installed seat belts in both my 60 & 61 for safety reasons. But this is NOT period correct..
* Some people put 11" brakes from a LWB on a SWB - to improve braking. But again, it didn't come like that from the factory..

I myself have done 2 restorations:

1) 1961 Series II "rolling restoration". I basically replaced all brake components, had the radiator re-cored, re-covered the seats, had the wiring cleaned-up and did a tidy up of the paint work. It allowed me to drive the vehicle around while all of this was happening.

2) 1960 Series II "complete chassis up restoration". This took me 4 years to complete (again, I am a tinkerer like yourself). I am very pleased with the results - but it did take nearly 4 years, and motivation is hard to keep up sometimes.

In my opinion:

* Look at multiple vehicles - don't buy the first thing that you can
* Prices are going up - but don't get suckered into paying too much
* Seek advice from this fantastic forum.
* If you are really set on a vehicle, maybe get someone with experience to do a pre-purchase check with/for you.
* Buy the best vehicle that you can afford
* Enjoy the vehicle
* Enjoy the restoration project for the fun that you will have
* Don't get caught up on 100% originality...
* Have fun!

That's just my opinion though.

Cheers,
GG.

[JDNSW]

Up to you which approach you take, but be aware that particularly for a Series 1, if trying to get an exact restoration, you will find some parts are difficult, very expensive, or impossible to find. And as alluded to, especially if you are looking at an 80", it will be very difficult to even determine just what was original - changes happened rapidly and were not well documented!

My feeling is that it depends on what you want it for, but unless it is a special vehicle with good provenence, such as the first of something, or used for some historic purpose, I would do an approximate restoration. In other words, get as close to original as is feasible for a reasonable cost ("reasonable" will be different for each person).

For example, if a Series 1, I would happily adapt to use a later master cylinder, but not change to pendant pedals, happily use a spread bore 2l instead of a siamesed one or vice versa, and maybe grudgingly use a Series 2/3 engine, but draw the line at a Holden engine. And so on.

But ultimately, up to you.

John

[Dark61]

I like the fact that my vehicles all have original engines. I also like them to be a bit crispy. I'd consider a ground up restoration in terms of making them mechanically safer and more reliable but I wouldn't strain the budget to get a period part - if a modern replacement would do, or spend time pimping the engine block or the bodywork. Having said that, I did pull some Holden seats out of the Diesel and replaced them with modernish s3 seats & I got rid of a rather nasty air filter on the 109 and stuck a good old fashioned oil bath one in - but these didn't put undue strain on the wallet. Do whatever makes you happy.
cheers,
D

[QRS40]

Thanks for feedback, that's surprisingly consistent really...! I don't want a concourse winner or anything, just a good old s1 to enjoy- but to justify it (too many cars already) I need make it a 'good investment' hence possible concern about overly modified cars. But I suppose that as long as it is 'about' right (eg rover motor for staters) it sounds like it shouldn't be a big issue..?
I don't have a fixed budget but it seems like 10-15k for a drivable example seems about ballpark(?) as a startup. Less for bare chassis obviously. Long term will always be lots more, but I won't count that..

Keep the comments coming :)

[Rick Fischer]

Hi

As an opinion, and having done it with a number of cars. A registerable runner is better, preferably used as an alternate "daily driver". One then does what is needed to keep it on the road and registered (roadworthy) and bring it back to whatever standard you want. Might take a bit longer but chances are "the project" won't stagnate.

Additionally as a "daily driver" one fixes whatever, when needed; and progresses the "bringing back" as funds and "taste" dictate. As a daily driver it will all be there and in reasonable condition so as to be roadworthy :)

Cheers

Rick F