D697 Tyre Damage on Road to Birdsville

[BobD]

Photos of tyre damaged by rocky road between Windora and Birdsville.

As you can see, the tyre was not new and had done a fair bit of hard work.


These photos were taken after returning to Perth via the Birdsville Track, Maree to Coober Pedy and the Great Central Road but the tyre was cracked, cut and chipped when we reached Birdsville.

[LRD414]

Bob,

How many k's on the tyres?
What pressure were you using on those roads/tracks?
Did you get any flats?

Scott

[Graeme]

Not good to see the cracks and other damage but with the tread that low they're bound to sustain damage more readily. I suspect they would be due for retirement from trip work anyway.

[LandyAndy]

How old are the tyres????
The cracking is a worry.They were second on my list after wranglers.Have had a good run with wranglers over several vehicles,including work vehicles.
Andrew

[Ozzy119]

I did the same road (from Cairns, so going south not west) with same tyres. Mine look hardly dented, with 30k on them. Towing a KK, family, 2 kids and dog on board.

Bob, as previously said, your setup looks very heavy ? And you didn't exactly hang about either, so they probably have done you well. My previous set of Coopers left me with no confidence compared to these tyres.

[scarry]

My BFG A/Twere a lot worse after a trip out there,i will have to dig out a pic.

Japanese tyres generally don't chip as badly as American tyres on those types of roads.

[ADMIRAL]

As has been discussed on this forum previously, it is pretty much impossible to replicate the same operating conditions for any given tyre or loading, when an issue such as this is shown. Just too many variables at play. Stay with the major brands and use commonsense in how the vehicle is loaded, the pressures used for the conditions, and the speed at which the trip is taken.

Every driver, vehicle, loading and road chosen will be different.

[BobD]

I'm not critical of the tyres and just put up the photos to show the sort of beating you get on that stretch of road after the previous poster mentioned doing that section on old tyres at up to 140 kph. It's only the rears that get that damage and the fronts are always perfect.


I was running around 30 psi on the gravel and reduced to mid twenties on corrugated road at lower speed. I usually do 42 in the rears on bitumen and 36 for the fronts. That tyre is probably around one year old, not much more. The trip was a two week trip, from Perth to Brisbane via Broken Hill and Louth in 4 days then 10 days to travel back to Perth with the KK that I had just bought, travelling via Birdsville etc as previously mentioned.


I basically replace two of the tyres once a year after each big trip. The D697's always get cracks in the carcase between the treads on every trip on rocky roads but only on the rears. The first time they did it on brand new tyres on the Binns track and the tyre specialist told me the tyres were crap. That was at road pressures on the rocks and the cuts between the treads were much worse than the photos but with none of the big cuts that were on those photos.


Since then, after advice on this forum, I have tried lower pressures but similar outcomes. I have no idea how many km I get out of a tyre but not that many when they spend half their life on rough roads.


I've never had a problem with punctures, despite the canvas showing and big cuts as shown in the photos. It's not the fault of the tyres that sharp rocks create cuts between the treads. My son's brand new mud tyres also had the same damage between the treads on his D1 travelling with us on the same trip. Even the BFG tyres on the KK had some cuts between the treads but in typical BFG fashion, it is mainly the treads that are extremely badly chipped on them.

[BobD]

I did the same road (from Cairns, so going south not west) with same tyres. Mine look hardly dented, with 30k on them. Towing a KK, family, 2 kids and dog on board.

Bob, as previously said, your setup looks very heavy ? And you didn't exactly hang about either, so they probably have done you well. My previous set of Coopers left me with no confidence compared to these tyres.



I don't think my setup is heavy, although I did have a Kimberley MyCube roof top tent on board to sleep in on the way to Brisbane. For only a two week trip and picking up a new to me caravan we travelled pretty light and we had two cars as well for 4 people.


I don't know how much the Kimberley Karavan weighed but the AGM is 2200kg and we were travelling with full water tanks.


I don't call 100kph on good parts of the road and 70 to 80 on more average bits fast. We do long distances in short time frames on our trips so we need to cover some distance but not at the expense of driving to the conditions. I think we had lunch at Windorah and got to Birdsville in the late afternoon when everyone was arriving from the desert.


I bought my car in Sydney in late 2012 at 50,000km and drove it back to Perth via Esperance in three days. It is now at 210,000 so we have done some travelling and in one month it will be my fourth trip in the D4 across the Great Central Road plus two across the Nullarbor.

[morpheus]

I wonder whether it's the 18s. My Cooper AT3s (which are smaller than yours at 265/60r18) started cracking, in between the tread, after 20-30k and after not much off road but quite a bit of long distance trips. I put it down to the Coopers not liking the weight of my car, but now I'm wondering if it's the 18 inch size. I know my mechanic didn't think the AT3s were suited to the Disco, because of the weight. I'm sure plenty on here can advise otherwise.

The only thing I don't know is how old the tyres are (they were on the car when I bought it and looked newish but could be old for all I know).

Might expedite my push towards 17s.

[RobA]

I wonder whether it's the 18s. My Cooper AT3s (which are smaller than yours at 265/60r18) started cracking, in between the tread, after 20-30k and after not much off road but quite a bit of long distance trips. I put it down to the Coopers not liking the weight of my car, but now I'm wondering if it's the 18 inch size. I know my mechanic didn't think the AT3s were suited to the Disco, because of the weight. I'm sure plenty on here can advise otherwise.

The only thing I don't know is how old the tyres are (they were on the car when I bought it and looked newish but could be old for all I know).

Might expedite my push towards 17s.

The issue of rim size has nothing to do with the tyre damage. All down to how the actual tyre performs in the environment.. Not sure where your mechanic gets the idea an AT3 is not suited to a particular vehicle. If it complies with the placard and particularly load and speed ratings then it is legal. In regard to overall performance large and heavy cars like LC200, Disco and the like will always be harder on their tyres for those reasons alone. When you start adding the extra weight involved with towing for example that exacerbates rear tyre wear for the obvious reasons. I have seen similar issues with BfG on the same and other outback roads as well as pretty much most other tyres. But it is variable and greatly depends on road condition, speed, pressures, temperatures, load etc. Equally we drive that road regularly each year and I use 697's and have not had anything close to that sort of damage and we tow an Ultimate camper most of the time

Rob

[nismine01]

Ozzy119, strange that.

I had Coopers on my Nissan Navara dual cab and got over 100,000k out of them.

Had a set on my Disco I and only got half of that, well a bit more than half but only just.

Mike

[BobD]

The issue of rim size has nothing to do with the tyre damage. All down to how the actual tyre performs in the environment.. Not sure where your mechanic gets the idea an AT3 is not suited to a particular vehicle. If it complies with the placard and particularly load and speed ratings then it is legal. In regard to overall performance large and heavy cars like LC200, Disco and the like will always be harder on their tyres for those reasons alone. When you start adding the extra weight involved with towing for example that exacerbates rear tyre wear for the obvious reasons. I have seen similar issues with BfG on the same and other outback roads as well as pretty much most other tyres. But it is variable and greatly depends on road condition, speed, pressures, temperatures, load etc. Equally we drive that road regularly each year and I use 697's and have not had anything close to that sort of damage and we tow an Ultimate camper most of the time

Rob


The picture was one tyre, which was way worse than the other. Both rears had slight chipping and lots of small cuts between the treads but the left rear was the only one with the large chunk out of the tread and the big cut. It obviously hit a couple of big sharp stones that did that damage but still performed perfectly well all the way home. I think the sister tyre to the damaged one got a puncture at Mt Augustus the year before when a small stone pushed through the carcass between the treads which was easily fixed with a plug. If so, it was the most worn tyre on the car because I only replaced the one with a puncture after the Mt Augustus trip


As an aside, I was following my son in his D1 with mud tyres on the trip and he was throwing up the rocks for me to run over. I was trying to miss as many as possible of the worst ones but that is pretty impossible when the road is full of rocks.

[RobA]

Bob we know that road very well and I do understand how rocky it can be and even worse just after the grader as they kindly smooth the dirt and crack the rocks open leaving nice razor sharp edges. Give me smooth gibber every time.

We will be at Mt Augustus on our way to Perth from a couple of months in the Kimberley around mid July so I hope to not repeat your experience but about the only thing I can guarantee is there is no such thing as a puncture proof tyre.

Rob

[roverrescue]

It's only the rears that get that damage and the fronts are always perfect.

This is a pretty good summation for all vehicles - unless you run good front mud flaps

with no front flaps the rears will get a toasting compared to a set of well positioned front flaps.

I wonder if your front left flap is letting more stones fly than your right front?

s

[VK3GJM]

Hi All,

I run D697, but for the first time. Just completed 10,000km and travelled with GVM load over 5,000km on dirt road heading south from Longreach and travelled on similar dirt roads to Tibbuburra, Cameron corner and further south. Although my tyres are fresh, I have noticed the huge contribution a decent set of front mud flaps make in buffering stones.

The amount of reduced wheel arch tumble of stones with the new set of mud flaps compared to OEM put flaps was amazing and I compared it with recordings from my dash cam.

In addition, the mud flaps also assisted in a massive reduction of stone chipping on my camper.

This May I will do another run with a modified stone stomper and a further reduction in stone chipping should result.

Regards

Gerald

[BobD]

My car has standard LR knock off Chinese mud flaps. One of the issues is that 285 tyres are way wider than the mud flaps. All the plastic on my sills, the flares and the Kaymar rear bar have been stone blasted where the stones come past the skinny mud flaps. Even the air hoses for the GOE emergency suspension height kit are stone blasted but that is from the inside of the tyres throwing stones up under the car.


I found the Stone Stomper on my camper trailer was too narrow and let stones past to hit the outer 50 to 100 mm of the trailer and the underside was completely stone blasted. I am now trying a Rock Tamer bar to try to reduce stone damage to the outer edges of the Kimberley Karavan but I don't expect any let up on the stones hitting the undercarriage.


When we came back through Birdsville I didn't have anything but the standard KK protection and everything exposed to stones from the car was badly stone blasted. The folding steps were the worst (apart from the suspension) and the alloy is pitted from the rocks hitting hit. The steel bolts look like they have been hit with a hammer and cold chissel.


I am putting more rubber flaps on the KK to try to reduce this but I guess wider mud flaps on the car would be the best solution. The Rock Tamers go some of the way as they extend well outside the D4 tyres but there is still plenty of gap between the Rock Tamer flaps for stones to hit the undercarriage of the KK.

[Nicky]

Ozzy119, strange that.

I had Coopers on my Nissan Navara dual cab and got over 100,000k out of them.

Had a set on my Disco I and only got half of that, well a bit more than half but only just.

Mike

The Disco is way heavier than the Navara, and will cause tyre-wear faster.

[morpheus]

The issue of rim size has nothing to do with the tyre damage. All down to how the actual tyre performs in the environment.. Not sure where your mechanic gets the idea an AT3 is not suited to a particular vehicle. If it complies with the placard and particularly load and speed ratings then it is legal. In regard to overall performance large and heavy cars like LC200, Disco and the like will always be harder on their tyres for those reasons alone. When you start adding the extra weight involved with towing for example that exacerbates rear tyre wear for the obvious reasons. I have seen similar issues with BfG on the same and other outback roads as well as pretty much most other tyres. But it is variable and greatly depends on road condition, speed, pressures, temperatures, load etc. Equally we drive that road regularly each year and I use 697's and have not had anything close to that sort of damage and we tow an Ultimate camper most of the time

Rob

Well I can't speak for the mechanic - and I'm no longer in Canberra so I can't ask him - but I do recall him saying something about AT3's failing on D3/4s because they didn't like the weight of the car.

I don't mind the look of the D697 and they still are my number one consideration next.

[BobD]

I need to replace the two rear tyres for a big trip to Central and Northern Australia in May so I have decided to change four of the tyres to BFG K02 in the same size. I will keep the D697's for spares and probably put them back on after the trip to wear them out some more in less arduous conditions.


I will be doing the Birdsville Track and Great Central Road again and plenty of other NT rough roads north of Mt Isa towing the KK so I will see how they perform and report back. The new tyres go on on Wednesday next week.

[RobA]

We will be very interested in your findings. We start a 20,000km trip through the NT, Kimberley, outback and SW WA and across the OTL maintenance track and GAB to Ceduna in May on 697's and towing an Ultimate camper so let's see how it all pans out

Rob

[BobD]

Our trip is only 11,000 km so not as big a test as yours. We have 5 weeks to do it in.


The BFG K0's on the KK have also been replaced with K02's but size is 285x75R16. The K0's were very badly chipped and pretty worn out but I destroyed one when a wheel came off last year so I have the best K0 as a spare.


I hope the K02's don't chip as badly as the K0's or I will not be happy at $580 per tyre in Perth. The D697's are nowhere near that expensive and didn't chip much at all. They just tend to get cut on the worst of the sharp rocks.

[BobD]

I picked up the K02's today and so far so good. I was pleasantly surprised at the low noise, just a slight hum. A fair bit quieter than the D697's with worn edges and scalloping and similar to what they were when new. The car looks a bit strange at the moment though. They are very chunky looking and actually look narrower than the D697's at first glance. I need to get them a bit dirty because they are too black.

[scarry]

I picked up the K02's today and so far so good. I was pleasantly surprised at the low noise, just a slight hum. A fair bit quieter than the D697's with worn edges and scalloping and similar to what they were when new. The car looks a bit strange at the moment though. They are very chunky looking and actually look narrower than the D697's at first glance. I need to get them a bit dirty because they are too black.

What size in KO2 did you get?

[BobD]

LT285 x 60R18. They seem to have plenty of stock of both the 285's and 265's at the moment.

[LandyAndy]

A pic would be good.
Andrew

[BobD]

Yeah, I was just thinking that. The car looks a bit strange with the fairly low profile and the muddy like side biters dominating the tyre. The side biters are very chunky with the tread just the normal looking BFG tread.


I'll try to post a picture in the next couple of days before the tyres get too dirty.

[Graeme]

This is 275/55R20 on my RRV, which until a few days ago I thought were far too noisy but now believe the noise is a failing right front wheel bearing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/254.jpg

[Aaron40]

Hi Graeme, how do they go in sand compared with the 19 inch rims 255/55/19 these 275/55/20 are 7.8% larger sidewall..... The 18 inch rims allow for 265/65/18 which are 22.8% sidewall difference and obviously improve soft sand performance....

[Graeme]

Neither the RRV not the BFGs have seen sand yet but I don't expect any problems airing down enough to extend the footprint for adequate floatation. The LT BFGs are for tougher and maximum 20" sidewalls, hoping to avoid a conversion to LT265/60R18 on Compomotives.

[LRD414]

.... hoping to avoid a conversion to LT265/60R18 on Compomotives.
I understand why Graeme but I'd still like to see that ;)

Scott

[BobD]

Graeme's 275/55 R20 tyres look very similar to my 285/60 R18 BFG tyres. They look smaller than the same size D697's but I think it is because of the full width square looking tread. The D697 is a more conventional tyre with a more bulging sidewall that comes out past the edge of the tread, which seems to make them look wider. I'm very interested to see what they do at 18psi. The D697 rear tyres look almost flat at 18, although the fronts are fine. They are great in soft sand at that pressure, however.

[Aaron40]

Neither the RRV not the BFGs have seen sand yet but I don't expect any problems airing down enough to extend the footprint for adequate floatation. The LT BFGs are for tougher and maximum 20" sidewalls, hoping to avoid a conversion to LT265/60R18 on Compomotives.

Love to know how they go!:)

[LandyAndy]

Aarron,its only a small increase in sidewall height compared to our stockies.What concerns me is they are wider,I believe half our problem is the tyres are quite wide and need to push a fair amount of sand before you move,we have little sidewall bagging out to assist.
Andrew

[Graeme]

Bob, do you use the same pressure in the rear as the front when loaded, particularly regarding sand usage? I used 4 psi less in the front to obtain about the same footprint in sand with my loaded D4.

[LandyAndy]

Greame.
When Aaron and I were at Horrocks we couldnt get the D4s to do much at all with anything above 15psi.
We both were disgusted,as we and our friend who just got his new deefer last week(was a D2 owner) as too the very poor performance in the soft sand and all agreed our D2s wouldnt have struggled.I do believe the sand was much softer than where the 3 of us normally beach drive.I never used to air down in the D2 until it was struggling.
Once we were moving the soft sand was easy.It was just the trying to get moving that was the issue.
The Toyotas didnt need to make a runway like I did on our last fish.Aaron gave up in disgust and parked on terra firma.
The 19"tyres are the worst feature of these loverley vehicles:(:(:(:(:(:(
Andrew

[BobD]

Bob, do you use the same pressure in the rear as the front when loaded, particularly regarding sand usage? I used 4 psi less in the front to obtain about the same footprint in sand with my loaded D4.

That would be about right. I have my Stauns set to 18 and I stop the rears a bit early when they look about right, if still a bit flat. That is usually around 20 to 22 and the fronts are at 18 and don't look too flat at all.

[LandyAndy]

That would be about right. I have my Stauns set to 18 and I stop the rears a bit early when they look about right, if still a bit flat. That is usually around 20 to 22 and the fronts are at 18 and don't look too flat at all.
Ive ditched my much loved Stauns now.I got an ARB deflator,you really need to know exactly how low you have gone with these 55 tyres.They look dreadfully flat on hard ground at 15psi.
Andrew

[CSBrisie]

FWIW I've done a lot of soft sand driving now in a RRV on 285/50/20 Cooper LTZ and never looked like getting stuck, but aired down from scratch to 16psi.
Cheers

[scarry]

Greame.
When Aaron and I were at Horrocks we couldnt get the D4s to do much at all with anything above 15psi.
We both were disgusted,as we and our friend who just got his new deefer last week(was a D2 owner) as too the very poor performance in the soft sand and all agreed our D2s wouldnt have struggled.I do believe the sand was much softer than where the 3 of us normally beach drive.I never used to air down in the D2 until it was struggling.
Once we were moving the soft sand was easy.It was just the trying to get moving that was the issue.
The Toyotas didnt need to make a runway like I did on our last fish.Aaron gave up in disgust and parked on terra firma.
The 19"tyres are the worst feature of these loverley vehicles:(:(:(:(:(:(
Andrew


Isn't it nice not to have to worry about tyres:D:D:D:D:angel:

Oh,and i am not talking about the deefer;)

Gives me more time to worry about other things