Crank handle starting a 2.25 diesel

[Aaron IIA]

I have heard that it can be done, but how does one start a 2.25 diesel engine via the crank handle? I have tried, but not succeeded.

Aaron

[JDNSW]

I won't say that it is impossible, but I have never managed it, nor heard of anyone else managing it. You would need to be very strong, I think.

John

[Dinty]

There is a technique, you don't have to be overly strong, just aware of what your doing. I always pull the engine over a few times slowly, I always (when attempting to start it) have the crank handle @ the 7o'clock position and always pull up, that way if it does backfire you have a better chance of your hand not getting hit by the crankhandle, it can be taxing but it is achievable, cheers Dennis
ps now that I'm getting a little older (not as senior as JD, with respect John) I prefer to use a battery jump pack if needed,,.

[schuy1]

Years ago, as in when my brother and I were still going to school!, He acquired an Austin A40 ute. The elderly owner had used it about his dairy farm and never bought a battery and he showed us how to crank start it which is as Dinty's technique , Always pull up, there is less chance of injury, I have been told the same regarding all crank started motors.
Cheers Scott

[JDNSW]

There is a technique, you don't have to be overly strong, just aware of what your doing. I always pull the engine over a few times slowly, I always (when attempting to start it) have the crank handle @ the 7o'clock position and always pull up, that way if it does backfire you have a better chance of your hand not getting hit by the crankhandle, it can be taxing but it is achievable, cheers Dennis
ps now that I'm getting a little older (not as senior as JD, with respect John) I prefer to use a battery jump pack if needed,,.

Did you see the diesel in the original post? Are you saying you can start a diesel by hand?

Petrol is easy if the engine is in reasonable tune. And yes, I can still start a petrol one by hand. As you say, always pull not push, and have your thumb on the same side of the handle as your fingers.

John

[Loubrey]

Back in the mid 90's we use to crank start Lister diesel engines on construction plant, but they had compression release handles and when you got a turn of speed up on the crank you or someone else would engage the compression...

Bloody dangerous if you ask me, but that was the norm at the time.

Cheers,

Lou

[JDNSW]

Back in the mid 90's we use to crank start Lister diesel engines on construction plant, but they had compression release handles and when you got a turn of speed up on the crank you or someone else would engage the compression...

Bloody dangerous if you ask me, but that was the norm at the time.

Cheers,

Lou

I still use a crank start Lister diesel generator - but compared to the Rover 2.25 it is smaller, lower compression, and has a much heavier flywheel as well as a decompressor. And I haven't got a hope of starting it without the decompressor.

But it is perfectly safe.

John

[67hardtop]

I remember my dad hand cranking our lister diesel engine generator. He would turn the crank handle over a few times to get the flywheel going then flick something on top of the engine (im guessing the decompression lever) and she'd fire into life, and we had electrikery for the night. 32 volt IIRC. No phones, fresh milk daily from our cow, chopping wood for the stove and hot water, garden vegies and fresh eggs. Many moons ago near Condinup in WA. Dad worked on a station down there (early 60's) as a mechanic/all rounder till the station boss found out he was German and sacked him on the spot. I spose the war was still fresh in a lot of ppls minds back then.

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-P5110 using AULRO mobile app

[Aaron IIA]

I have hand started a GM 270 in a DUKW, a Rolls Royce B80 in a Saladin and regularly hand start my Ford 239 side valve V8, aswell as numerous Land Rovers. But these are all petrol engines. I am asking about a 2.25 diesel, without a decompression valve. Somebody on this forum said that it is possible. We shall await his response.

Aaron

[schuy1]

Yes, a landrover diesel can be hand stared as per the preceding instructions. A neighbour had swb 62 mod diesels and was always too tight to buy 2 6v batterys at the same time, The early LR had 2 6vs , 1 in the engine bay and another under the passenger seat. He was always cranking it! I was only a kid then but I remember him slowly rocking it over to the 7oclock position and pulling up , I think sometimes he turned it slowly over several rotations be 4 the starting pull though. Been a while :)
I also know dad used to crank the inter b250 tractor sometimes if the key had been left on over night. The LR d is not as high compression as some are too.
Cheers Scott

[Blknight.aus]

you need to decompress it, you need to pre heat it you need to start one pot then get the others up..

it is not as easy as you think the later 2.25s are higher compression than the early ones.

you can also start one with a shotgun shell, the crank handle and a 6v dolphin torch battery (and a little wire)

In case I loose track of the thread someone PM me when you want the answers to how for both methods.

[schuy1]

Dave, Would that be why the old bloke wound it around a few times? to get the pots right and decompress it? Been a long time since I saw it done :)
Cheers Scott

[Dinty]

No John I didn't LOL (going blind) but my mate used to start his S2A diesel 109 if the battery were flat, he would jack up the right hand rear wheel, remove wheel, have in rear wheel drive only, chock front wheels put a tyre lever into the wheel studs and jump on the lever, and to my surprise it started, but there would be no way I would ever try it, cheers dennis

[JDNSW]

..........The LR d is not as high compression as some are too.
Cheers Scott

Not sure where that comes from - the 2.0 is 22.5:1, the 2.25 is 23:1. For comparison, with similar vintage designs, the 4BD1 is 17:1 and the Perkins 354 is 16:1. Modern turbocharged direct injection diesels tend to be even lower. The Lister diesels mentioned earlier in this thread are about 15:1.

John

[67hardtop]

Friend of mine has a s3 diesel, next time i see him ill get my crank handle out and try to crank start it. But ill cheat coz ill try 2 do it with the engine already warm😆

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app

[JDNSW]

No John I didn't LOL (going blind) but my mate used to start his S2A diesel 109 if the battery were flat, he would jack up the right hand rear wheel, remove wheel, have in rear wheel drive only, chock front wheels put a tyre lever into the wheel studs and jump on the lever, and to my surprise it started, but there would be no way I would ever try it, cheers dennis


Yes, that would work, although you would want to be fairly heavy or a long lever. And hope the lever fell off the wheel when the engine started - it probably would, but it is a risk. If it failed to do so, I would think there'd be a good chance of the vehicle jumping off the jack before the engine stalled. Of course, a driver in the seat ready to jump on the clutch would be a valuable precaution.

Might be possible to use the crank handle with a suitable extension as well, although I am not certain the crank handle would be strong enough. At least it has automatic disengagement though.

John

[Blknight.aus]

ok, first up...

shot gun shell.

set fuel on, set 1/2 throttle, crack #1 injector, rocker cover off, roll the engine over until the exhaust valve on 1 closes and the rocker goes loose, pry ti up and insert about 1/8th of an inch of washers between the rocker and the valve. make sure you have a good bit of tie wire looped through them to enable you to pull them out, do the same for #2

make sure the engine turns over and the valves dont meet pistons.

roll it over again until #3 is at about 20ATDC AND injector 1 is spitting fuel out of the union.

remove the glow plug, open the shotgun shell, through a bit of fine pipe pour in the powder from the shotgun shell, about half of it, wet the glow plug with a little bit of diesel from the #1 union, dip it into the left over powder, pour in the rest of the powder and then carefully wind in the glow plug.

short the glow plug to the 6v battery when it gets hot enough it will fire the poweder that shoves #3 down and if you've got everything right it will then fire #4 and run very roughly rip out the decompression spacers from the exhaust valves on 1+2 then close the injector union on #1 put the rocker cover back on.

If you need to preheat #4.. dont . change it up so that you're working on pots 2+1 open up the valves on 1 and put a hot air torch into the inlet manifold you may also want to remove #1 glow plug. IF your glow plugs and battery are good enough you can wire it up so that the battery will turn on both the glow plugs on the cylinders that are going to try to fire.

THIS WONT WORK... if you have the aftermarket 12v glowplugs you must have the 3v wire all in series with a dirty great resistor style glow plugs.

[DAMINK]

Me and a mate had a few beers today.
Told him AULRO is talking about hand cranking cars today lmfao!!
Oh did we laugh our asses off. Seriously it was damn funny and i still chuckle at this thread.
Great stuff guys.........

[Blknight.aus]

even with a warmed up 2.25 diesel you wont crank start it without prepwork...

first you need to preheat the cylinders, I like to work with #3 as the cylinder Im going to try to start on. Set fuel on, full fuel position

you need to open up all the valves on all cylinders with 1/8-3/16 inch spacer stacks of washers held together with tie wire so they are ready to yank out. rocker cover off, turn the engine over slowly and as each rocker goes loose pry it up and insert your washer stack

open up all the injector unions and wind the engine over until you have fuel coming out of all the injector unions close them up.wind it over a couple more times

wind the engine over until #3 (or your cylinder of choice) is at about 10-15 DATC on the power stroke, use a tyre lever to lift the inlet and exhaust valves as open as you can get them put your blow torch into the inlet manifold and let it do its magic, you need to get the manifold hot, the piston hot and remove the glow plug from #3 to make sure that hot air is coming out #3, go check the exhaust and make sure air is coming out of that too. (it wont be hot but you need the air coming out that tells you that you're getting heat to where you need it most).

when you're ready to go and youve psyched yourself up (a helper helps with the next bit) drop the tyre levers out whip the blow torch out of the manifold but leave it where it is blowing hot air (not flame) into the manifold) get on the crank handle and get some inertia up on the crank and then whip out the spacer stacks on #3, if you get it right they come out as the inlet rocker for #2 starts to open, you now have 1+3/4 turns left before #3 fires, you need to give it everything. once it fires start pulling out spacers, ALWAYS pull inlets before exhausts. as the revs come up back off the fuel.

put the rocker cover back on.

It can help to select 4 Hi with both back wheels up off of the ground so you're building inertia in the entire driveline as opposed to just the engine. the wheels are very very big flywheels.

it will work with just one wheel up and if you have a good mate some rope and someone to work the clutch you can get it to go by wrapping the wheel picking second gear have someone hold the clutch in and then run with the rope and at the opportune moment dump the clutch.

Yes, Cartons were invovled along with some "told you you could crank start a landrover diesel." The fact that I happened to be leaning on a perentie at the time the comment was made and they didnt assume I was talking about a Series was not my fault. the badge on the grill said landrover.

[Aaron IIA]

Both very engenius methods. I will try them at some stage.

Aaron

[schuy1]

Must be losing the mind then? Am sure the old bloke cranked it no problems. Methinks the procedure is becoming entwined with myth and wikki craft...........
Cheers Scott

[Blknight.aus]

just be careful with the shotgun load...

to much will liberate you precombustion chamber from the head.

(works great on the tdi(x)00 tho)

[Blknight.aus]

Must be losing the mind then? Am sure the old bloke cranked it no problems. Methinks the procedure is becoming entwined with myth and wikki craft...........
Cheers Scott

if you have a not flat battery and just need to give it enough to help the starter get to turning over its easy to do.

the 2.25 petrol however...

a good one can be gotten to start with 3-4 priming turns of the crank handle and 1 good flick

A really good one, primed up right you can get to start with just the dolphin torch battery without having to pull the crank handle after you have the engine primed and positioned correctly

[67hardtop]

Why not just park on a hill????
😆😆😆😆😆😆

Cheers Rod

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[Aaron IIA]

the 2.25 petrol however...

A really good one, primed up right you can get to start with just the dolphin torch battery without having to pull the crank handle after you have the engine primed and positioned correctly

They tell me a T Ford could similarly be started simply by switching it on when running on the battery.

Aaron

[Aaron IIA]

Why not just park on a hill????
😆😆😆😆😆😆

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app

A bit hard when you are already parked front in at the supermarket carpark and the sprag clutch chooses that moment to stop locking up.

This is also the ultimate Land Rover conundrum. To park on a hill because the starter motor doesn't work, or to park on the flat because the hand brake doesn't work and the engine has lost compression.

Aaron

[Blknight.aus]

They tell me a T Ford could similarly be started simply by switching it on when running on the battery.

Aaron

If you prime it right, yes.

that was the inspiration behind the "Hrmmm, I wonder moment" that lead to getting a 2.25 to do it, took a bit of thinking tho.

it was also possible to do it if you had a really good maggy on it and could pop it on the advancer coupling by hand.

[Aaron IIA]

How do you get it to work with the battery coil ignition? You normally have to break the circuit to cause the magnetic field to collapse to generate the high voltage. Do you disconnect the lantern battery to get it to fire once, then quickly connect it again?

Aaron

[Blknight.aus]

thats surprisingly close.

[JDNSW]

They tell me a T Ford could similarly be started simply by switching it on when running on the battery.

Aaron

More or less correct. (I learn't to drive partly on one). The Model T and earlier FOrds had separate vibrator coil for each cylinder, with two positions for the ignition switch. "BAT" runs the ignition from battery, until 1917 dry batteries, after that optional generator and starter allowed operation from a 6v battery. "MAG" runs the ignition and optionally electric headlights from a flywheel low tension magneto.

Normal starting procedure was to ensure the handbrake was on (which automatically engages neutral), fuel on, ignition off, spark fully retarded, hand throttle full. Crank past four compressions, holding the choke rod (comes out of the bottom RH corner of the radiator) out as you do. Stop just past the last compression. Ignition on, throttle four notches, and slowly advance the spark. With any luck, engine starts. Without luck, retard the spark again, and a single gentle crank should see it running. Once the engine is running, switch across to "MAG", and advance spark to about half.

John

[Pezwa83]

On a more technical note wrt crank handles - does anyone know (or can they measure for me) the specs of a crank handle? Mine I suspect has been long lost and I think I will just make one myself. Cheers

[mick88]

On a more technical note wrt crank handles - does anyone know (or can they measure for me) the specs of a crank handle? Mine I suspect has been long lost and I think I will just make one myself. Cheers





Will do tomorrow for you!


Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

We used to have one of the little Suzuki LJ50 4wd's, 540cc two stroke and it could be hand started by jacking one wheel off the ground and then flicking the wheel with it 3rd or 4th gear high range. Mind you it used to rock around a bit on the jack once it started, so it was a quick dash to get the clutch in and throw it into neutral.


As for the two and a quarter diesel, I know not, however my experience with another Pommy diesel (Perkins) is they basically start on a rock without even a glow plug. Our Ferg (MF 135, Perkins AD3 152) will start on the coldest frosty morning without glowing and just a "rock" from the starter. Mind you the motor is in good nick and I rebuilt it less than 500 hours back.


Cheers, Mick.

[Aaron IIA]

The Land River 2.25 diesel is a pre-combustion chamber, indirect injection engine. They are hard to start without warming the glowplugs. On a 20?C day, it might take 30 seconds of cranking without the glowplugs. Once the engine is warm, it will start by just touching the starter button.

Aaron

[JDNSW]

Interesting you say that. It is a long time since I ran one, but I do not remember needing the glow plugs in warm weather. This is certainly not a problem of indirect injection engines as such - my tractor, with a Perkins 306, despite being almost fifty years old, invariably starts on the first compression in any weather. It has the same "Comet" precombustion chambers as the Rover engine, unless I am mistaken.

John

[Aaron IIA]

Could it be that the Land Rover engine, being one of the first high speed diesels fitted to a passenger car, is of a low compression design, and the Perkins engine is high compression?

Is your tractor a Chamberlain?

Aaron

[mick88]

On a more technical note wrt crank handles - does anyone know (or can they measure for me) the specs of a crank handle? Mine I suspect has been long lost and I think I will just make one myself. Cheers


Here you go!
Crank handle dimensions.


The handle is made from 18mm diameter rod and overall is 1 metre long. I reckon 3/4" (19 mm) dia. would be easier to get and do the job.
The end that goes into the starting dog has about a 60 degree taper extending 8-10 mm back.
The main part of the handle is 700 mm long, then the two right angles are each 150 mm long.
The drive pin at the end is 8mm dia. and 30.5 long, with an ever so slight taper at each end.
The pin is set back 20mm (to the centre) from the end.
The drive pin is set perpendicular to the handle.


Hope this makes sense.
Cheers, Mick.

[Dark61]

I took some pics.
cheers,
D

[JDNSW]

Could it be that the Land Rover engine, being one of the first high speed diesels fitted to a passenger car, is of a low compression design, and the Perkins engine is high compression?

Is your tractor a Chamberlain?

Aaron


No. The Chamberlain is 15:1, the Rover engine is 22.5:1. It is, however, distinctly possible that the cylinder size has an effect, as the surface/volume ratio is a lot higher for the smaller cylinder. And the larger surface area for the same volume means higher heat loss. Could also simply be a function of injector spray pattern. This, and other non-obvious parameters may well be quite different to meet design requirements - for example, the Perkins has a useful torque range of about 800-2,500rpm - the Rover engine has a much wider range about 800-4,000 rpm (lower maximum on the two litre). Cold starting ability may well have been a minor design consideration - after all, glow plugs were needed for real cold weather anyway.

But my point was that I do not remember difficult starting with mine - the only time I ever had difficult starting was in snow with inoperative glow plugs, although normal cold starting it certainly needed a couple of turns to fire if you did not use the glows. (and then there was the time the filters waxed up on a cold morning at Uluru! but it fired a couple of times)

John

John

[mick88]

I took some pics.
cheers,
D



That looks identical to mine but obviously made from a much smaller diameter bar.


Cheers, Mick.

[Aaron IIA]

According to this Chamberlain manual

http://antiquetractors6.blogspot.com.au/2005/10/antique-tractor-manualschamberlain-306.html'm=1

the Perkins 6-306 is a direct injection engine, with a fuel burning heater in the inlet manifold. This is probably why it starts easier.

Aaron

[mick88]

I took some pics.
cheers,
D




Darkside, might pay to check your vernier callipers are calibrated/zeroed, as the jaws line up nearer to 18mm, so that 11.96 mm dia looks to be an inaccurate reading.


Cheers, Mick.

[JDNSW]

According to this Chamberlain manual

ANTIQUE TRACTORS Chamberlain 306 manual: ANTIQUE TRACTOR MANUALS.Chamberlain 306 (http://antiquetractors6.blogspot.com.au/2005/10/antique-tractor-manualschamberlain-306.html'm=1)

the Perkins 6-306 is a direct injection engine, with a fuel burning heater in the inlet manifold. This is probably why it starts easier.

Aaron

You're right - faulty memory! I have never used the cold start provision in my tractor - it starts immediately even below zero.

John

[mick88]

Doesn't the "glow" start only work when activated, not with every start. Cheers, Mick.

[JDNSW]

Doesn't the "glow" start only work when activated, not with every start. Cheers, Mick.

Depends on the engine, but yes, that is the case for the Rover engine.

John

[Dark61]

Darkside, might pay to check your vernier callipers are calibrated/zeroed, as the jaws line up nearer to 18mm, so that 11.96 mm dia looks to be an inaccurate reading.


Cheers, Mick.


Yep - I tried again and got closer to 17 with the callipers and the piece of paper. Thanks for reminding me about the zero. Don't use them all that often.
cheers,
D