Winch - really a necessity? Your comment welcome

[tact]

In a past life in which I owned a Toyota 4x4 I did all the usual stuff:
- fitted bars and winch
- changed tyres and cut guards etc
- tackled pretty hard core terrain, usually with other vehicles
- often went bush solo, so considered the winch a necessity

Now I have a MY2013 D110 DCPU.
- am older and wiser (read: lazy to tackle hard core stuff any more)
- am older and wiser (read: won't be doing solo trips anywhere I can't call for roadside assist)
- modified my vehicle for a little extra "oomph" (a tune, 33" tyres, ATBs from Ashcroft's in front & rear diffs.)
- notice, no mention of fitting a winch and no plans to do so given my use cases.

Am getting the expected flak from some quarters for not wanting to fit a winch. A decision taken based on the following:
- in all the years I had a winch (on the Toyota) I think it was used a total of 4 times and none of those occasions was it the only option available.
- don't be facetious and say "if not getting stuck, not trying hard enough" the Toyota years saw plenty good hard core trails and plenty of getting stuck, all dealt with pretty well by first resorting to towstrap and shackles.
- won't ever be going bush solo beyond phone signal and roadside assist any more
- not going to be doing particularly hard core trails often, and expect a towstrap and shackles and a couple of buddy vehicles will be sufficient.
- do carry my own straps and shackles, saws, axes, shovels etc

I don't particularly care about the criticism I have fielded so far. But will respect your opinions - is it really madness to go off-road without a winch? I really don't think so.

[DNB]

I'm not really sure about how to answer your question, but I would say that every time I've been stuck 4wding...... I wished I had a Winch on my car!!! The last time I got bogged, we had to walk Miles and Miles, just to get some help, as we didn't have mates out with us.(they couldn't have gotten us out, because the entire area had SOFTTT sand..... luckily, we got help from some guys with some powerful 4 wheel motorbikes :)

[Toxic_Avenger]

It's all calculated risk as you've alluded to. A winch is NOT a prerequisite to going offroad, IMO.

If it really hits the fan, then it's always going to be a matter of "I wish I had a (snatch strap/ buddy to help / hand winch / electric winch / John Deere) to pull me out"

I have a winch, and I've done all I can to ensure it's in a position to help me out to its full potential when I need it.
That day hasn't come, but if it does, I want to rely on it to do 100% of it's job.
The key is that you engage the brain before low range, and you should never need it- calculated risk vs return.

[roverrescue]

I think the answer to this question

is it really madness to go off-road without a winch?

is

I won't ever be going bush solo beyond phone signal and roadside assist any more

Clearly for you and your choices a winch is just something to go rusty and seize whilst weighing down the front of the vehicle.


For the paths that I choose to travel you would be better calling the Army for a helicopter airlift than roadside assist - on your satphone because the nearest mobile reception is a few days walk away.

I choose to have an electric winch up front, a Tirfor behind the rear seats and carry metric ****-tonne of Dyneema.

Hell I have even had to use the winch just taking the dogs for a walk to the beach not 10 minutes from home? Had a mate walk 20km in the pouring rain (had no winch) stuck on a bush track chasing pigs just out of town... horses for courses.

S

[weeds]

You don't have to do hardcore to get stuck.......the first time I used mine I was cruising across a creek bed, little pebbles, dead flat, in phone reception, traveling solo.

The next time I pulled a couple of mates up over a bump on a track, was with others, had phone reception, snatching would have been difficult so a 2:1 setup meant the day wasn't spoilt.

Third time was assisting the owner of MAXTRAX to build a log bridge to re-open a track that is listed in his Dirty Weekend Book. He doesn't run a winch as his motto is take the easy way out I.e. MAXTRAX at least one of the other cars had an electric winch but when he looked at the tree and the distance to winch he changed his mind as he didn't want to wreck his winch. Have quite a few hours winching the bridge was built........

Winch was fitted for 8 or so years. Kinda glad I dragged it around. Electric winches are pretty cheap these days.......although I prefer PTO.

[Tank]

In a past life in which I owned a Toyota 4x4 I did all the usual stuff:
- fitted bars and winch
- changed tyres and cut guards etc
- tackled pretty hard core terrain, usually with other vehicles
- often went bush solo, so considered the winch a necessity

Now I have a MY2013 D110 DCPU.
- am older and wiser (read: lazy to tackle hard core stuff any more)
- am older and wiser (read: won't be doing solo trips anywhere I can't call for roadside assist)
- modified my vehicle for a little extra "oomph" (a tune, 33" tyres, ATBs from Ashcroft's in front & rear diffs.)
- notice, no mention of fitting a winch and no plans to do so given my use cases.

Am getting the expected flak from some quarters for not wanting to fit a winch. A decision taken based on the following:
- in all the years I had a winch (on the Toyota) I think it was used a total of 4 times and none of those occasions was it the only option available.
- don't be facetious and say "if not getting stuck, not trying hard enough" the Toyota years saw plenty good hard core trails and plenty of getting stuck, all dealt with pretty well by first resorting to towstrap and shackles.
- won't ever be going bush solo beyond phone signal and roadside assist any more
- not going to be doing particularly hard core trails often, and expect a towstrap and shackles and a couple of buddy vehicles will be sufficient.
- do carry my own straps and shackles, saws, axes, shovels etc

I don't particularly care about the criticism I have fielded so far. But will respect your opinions - is it really madness to go off-road without a winch? I really don't think so.
Not being a smartarse, but where you are planning to go You really don't need a 4WD, IMO, Regards Frank.

[pop058]

I must be getting old because I think if you need a winch to get out of somewhere, you should not have gone in there in the first place. :p

I do have one on my Disco but in the last few years have only used it once to drag a DA lowlux driver off a mound hidden in the grass. If he had walk it first, he would have realised he could have gone to the side and been fine.

What makes it even funnier is that he was heading in to try and drag the nephews Cruiser out where he had been since dusk the night before. :D

[rar110]

It really depends on where you are going and if you think self recovery is necessary or off road ability is important.

There was only one occasion back in 2001 that I needed a winch to recover my 110. These days I'm not as dumb as that I don't think, as with experience I'm a bit more aware of risks. That's not a guarantee I won't get stuck but now less likely. Also I really don't drive in situations anymore that's likely to need a winch. These days my off road driving is likely to be a local beach or gravel possibly corrugated road.

The other occasion a winch was important for off road ability, but not really necessary for recovery, was with Weeds as described above. On that occasion it was definitely an advantage as we got stuck fairly early and without a winch we wouldn't have had so much fun. Thanks again Weeds. ddc4d.

[PhilipA]

A winch is like a Talisman. If you have one you never need it, If you don't then you do.

I have a compromise. An Old warn 6000lb winch in a nice box that sits on the rear floor when I am on rough trips, but in the garage other times. It can fit on either end of the car.

I have used it once to pull someone who had slipped off a causeway in the Watagans and it did well.

Only had one occasion when I had to be winched and there were plenty around with winches to pull me.
Regards Philip A

[Tank]

Part of earning a living means that I need a winch to help recover myself and usually attached vehicle or van.
But there have been occasions I have had to use my winch to prevent a roll over or careening off backwards down a steep hill.
In these cases it is safer to either lower oneself back down the hill with the control that a winch gives, also the same if you need to proceed further up the hill.
An example I foolishly took on Pork Chop Hill near Batemans Bay NSW, very steep and wide powerline track, no narrow track with built up embankments you can use to arrest an uncontrolled backwards slide downhill.
I had both front and rear diffs locked and because steering was impossible I drove into a hole which put the Disco on a very steep side slope, I had to use the winch to stabalise the Disco till I could disengage the front diff lock and drive a metre or two to get back on an even keel.
The winch is not just for unbogging, you can 99 times out of a hundred avoid a bog, use the winch as a tool, it is very versatile and can be used to save not only a 4WD but lives as well.
I would rather have a winch along with all its Cons, like weight, dual batteries, etc. and never use it, than NOT have one and regret the day I was born because I didn't have one, think outside the box, I have used mine to clear tracks and even tarred roads, I have lifted engines out of vehicles, have dragged cars up onto a car trailer, my winch has paid for itself many times over, Regards Frank.

[cuppabillytea]

Hi Neil. I'm older and wiser than you, by you own definition of course. I didn't really thing I needed a winch, but the BIL viewed a video of some of my Less adventurous excursions and told the Missus I needed one. She went to ARB and bought one. Not being one to look a Gift Horse in the mouth, I had it fitted. It was my Birthday after all. All good, I thought, it'll lower the nose a bit and give it that wedgie look. (Not really. I thought. I need stronger springs now.) Any way a nice bit of bling.
Well low and behold, not long ago, I actually had to use it. Yes there were alternatives but one would have involved a slight amount of damage to my vehicle and the other, testing my skill at a higher level than I was comfortable with given the four kids I had onboard. So, I set my lazy hide to the task and at the end of the day was grateful for the winch.

[tact]

Not being a smartarse, but where you are planning to go You really don't need a 4WD, IMO, Regards Frank.

Yer rrrrr you might have mis-read the bit where I mention not going "solo" where I am out of phone signal and flat-top range.

There is plenty of fun to be had getting stuck and picking better lines on nicely challenging trails where 4x4 and a few mods are definitely needed - where I go. With friends. Not solo.

Smartarse. ;)

[joel0407]

If you don't think you have enough use for a winch, get a tirfor. Use it once and you'll wish you had a winch but at least it'll get you out.


Happy Days

[DieselLSE]

Agree with all of the above comments. I've spent many hours using a PTO capstan winch on a SIII. Two notable efforts were 4 hours uphill and another time about 8 hours downhill in reasonably deep snow with a broken front axle. Once I had an all night walkout when I was bogged (S11A) and I had yet to fit the PTO drive shafts.

But I was young and silly then. I'm old and silly now.

Under no circumstances would I not have a winch on a Landrover.

When I bought the LSE the first thing I did was fit a Warn winch. I'm not a fan of electric winches, but if there's no alternative then you have no choice. In 20 years of ownership I've never had to use it for self recovery, although it's been handy for a few lifting applications or for winching cars onto trailers.

I still get to remote places (I'm a deer hunter) and I have taken the LSE everywhere the Series Landies went. Perhaps the LSE is more competent. I love the ETC on the rear wheels and I have ARB diff locks front and rear as well. As you've probably figured out, I mostly travel with just the one vehicle, so the passengers are dependent on me.

For a few years I had a P38 in NZ and went beach and mountain driving a few times when on holidays. It did not have a winch and I was surprised at how nervous I was in not having a winch as a backup.

I really think we travellers should be as independent and self reliant as possible, particularly when 4wd'ing alone. We carry extra water, food, fuel, spare parts, comms equipment, tyres, etc., and I would always argue that a winch (and knowing how to use it) is essential.

But I've never been a convoy person and I accept that if you regularly travel with others then it is perfectly acceptable to spread the recovery abilities across the convoy. But if you travel alone in remote areas, particularly with passengers, then I'd recommend fitting a winch. Oh! And a raised air intake if there's any chance of a deep river crossing.

[tact]

[...]
I really think we travellers should be as independent and self reliant as possible, particularly when 4wd'ing alone. We carry extra water, food, fuel, spare parts, comms equipment, tyres, etc., and I would always argue that a winch (and knowing how to use it) is essential.

But I've never been a convoy person and I accept that if you regularly travel with others then it is perfectly acceptable to spread the recovery abilities across the convoy. But if you travel alone in remote areas, particularly with passengers, then I'd recommend fitting a winch. Oh! And a raised air intake if there's any chance of a deep river crossing.

This is pure gold comment - I reckon.

[cuppabillytea]

One adjunct to my anecdote as well Neil. It wouldn't have made any difference had I been in a convoy. The lead vehicle would have had to have a winch or they would all have been stuck. I've seen and heard what you do and it is no less difficult than what I do. You can't tell me either, that you're not inclined to push it a little further some times.

[PSI250]

Just some thoughts to ponder, not having a go at all and not all super relevant to you but just my ramblings.

While you say you may not ever need it, and that may be true, but what's the downside to fitting one on the chance it may save you one day ( or someone else ) Quality can be had cheap enough these days, bullbar is normally the most expensive part! Runva 9500 with rope and lifetime warranty for example.

Being able to self recover is handy, while you may not chase the hard stuff, sometimes it does the chasing! Tracks change overnight etc. weather conditions etc that corner that didn't look that slippery, that ground that just gave way that you didn't see, finding that soft spot while backing the boat in,

I have had mechanical issues on the tracks that have then forced me to winch to safety when a snatch would not have been possible or caused further damage.

Sometimes a vehicle to vehicle recovery is not possible, position, safety etc and other times it's just quicker to winch than set up 2 cars etc

I have used my winch a few times on other cars when traveling, majority on cars slid off tracks, I'd hate to have to drive off on someone up the creek and requiring assistance, my missus reckons I have a hero complex.

handy to prevent damage, a simple task of crossing a rut / tree etc could quickly and unexpectedly turn sour and require a quick winch to pull you back on line / off that bank / tree / Rock.

Just like mentioned in this thread I've also used my winch for non 4wding moments.

Re: won't be anywhere you can't call for assistance; flat phone battery, thought you'd have reception but don't, Telstra just happened to drop out again, waiting 2-3 hours for a mate to come give you that 2 min snatch / winch. Roadside call out fee more than your winch cost?

Never had to winch in the past so don't see the point? I've never made an insurance claim in the past but I sure as **** still have insurance! I've never used my fire extinguisher in the car, but it's always in the car.

You don't NEED a winch to get out and about, you might never use it, If you only ever go with others and at least one has a winch then you pretty much covered 99% of the time, But there may be just that one time when you really really need it and it will Be worth its weight in gold.

I guess there no real answer, there's so many what ifs but the way I see it. There isn't many negatives Why not?

[LandyAndy]

Im glad I paid the extra for a winch bar for my MY14 D4.The poxy 19" tyres are shocking in deep soft sand,yet to get a winch,Im pretty sure I wont be venturing up beaches alone until I have one,or GOE wheels with a better tyre sizing:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
Andrew

[Eevo]

i thinking having a wench should be mandatory

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/328.jpg

[gusthedog]

Just on fire extinguishers - did a course for work recently and if you let off even a small amount of the common car type extinguisher in your car it will write it off. The chemicals eat silicon. Just something to be aware of.

I have a tirfor. Wish I had an electric winch on my D2 but a non winch bull bar makes it a pretty costly exercise for a bar and winch purchase on a 16 year old vehicle.

Pricey

[DiscoMick]

Optional but occasionally useful.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[B.S.F.]

If people feel a winch is that important for self-recovery you'd think they'd have one front and back.
W.

[cafe latte]

Only twice I have needed a winch to get out of a bog and I used a hand pull through type. Amazing what you can get out of though with nothing. In the last fire one of the fire trucks was badly bogged, I sent another truck to help them get out. I hear on the radio they could not get them out and they tell me they need a tractor or something to pull them out and they were going to drain the water out which I told them not to and to wait for me to arrive.
There were old bushies on the second truck I sent and they thought they knew better than I did. I cut down an load of saplings with a cane knife and laid them in the wheel tracks under the wheels too. I got the moaning bushies to dig the diffs out whilst listening to constant protests how it would not work.. I hopped into the cab and without being towed at all I just drove the truck out. A winch would have worked well, but there was another way with a bit of thought. Before I arrived they had tried apparently everything for about 2 hours, what they had not tried was engaging any of their brains.
Winches are handy though, but heavy.
Chris

[austastar]

Hi,
Sit Rep:
Pulled off a bitumen road to check a set of roadside picnic tables as a spot to kip for the night. Heavy rain for days had us very cautious about going any where off road.

Problem:
Vic Gas had refilled a trench with soft earth between the road and the tables.

Result:
Bogged to the chassis at the rear. Front wheels on hard stand.

Not enough traction on the front to extract us forward, and that would put us on the wrong side of the trench. The Tirfur would have pulled us forward maybe but would have needed me to drive and winch at the same time.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/320.jpg

Backwards was the only way to go, but our jacks and planks were inadequate to get the wheel out of the gooey trench to get planks under them.

Fortunately we were rescued by a local with a Toyota and a short strap.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/321.jpg

Conclusion:
The weapon of choice here may have been a Hi-Lift Jack, although a mounted winch might have got me out - but on the wrong side of the trench.

Cheers

[cafe latte]

Hi,
Sit Rep:
Pulled off a bitumen road to check a set of roadside picnic tables as a spot to kip for the night. Heavy rain for days had us very cautious about going any where off road.

Problem:
Vic Gas had refilled a trench with soft earth between the road and the tables.

Result:
Bogged to the chassis at the rear. Front wheels on hard stand.

Not enough traction on the front to extract us forward, and that would put us on the wrong side of the trench. The Tirfur would have pulled us forward maybe but would have needed me to drive and winch at the same time.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/320.jpg

Backwards was the only way to go, but our jacks and planks were inadequate to get the wheel out of the gooey trench to get planks under them.

Fortunately we were rescued by a local with a Toyota and a short strap.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/321.jpg

Conclusion:
The weapon of choice here may have been a Hi-Lift Jack, although a mounted winch might have got me out - but on the wrong side of the trench.

Cheers

I have seen someone run a front mounted winch cable under the car, it might have helped. A high lift jack can be very useful as you said.
Chris

[austastar]

I have seen someone run a front mounted winch cable under the car, it might have helped. A high lift jack can be very useful as you said.
Chris

Hi, nothing but road behind me, and the chassis is on the ground in gooey mud.
Cheers

[kogvos]

If people feel a winch is that important for self-recovery you'd think they'd have one front and back.
W.
With science (and shackles, snatch blocks, etc.), I do!

I also have a hand winch for when science fails me. [emoji4]

[AndyG]

In Png 99.9 % of the 4wd are winchless we rely on rentacrowd
Mind u they are also often no spare, no jack, no tools, and no rego :p
Esp the Police

[Battler]

Hi, nothing but road behind me, and the chassis is on the ground in gooey mud.
Cheers

Would an exhaust jack worked in this situation to lift and pack underneath?

Just thinking, instead of an electric winch have a hand winch (hard work I know but how often are you going to use it?), some sort of traction devices (Treds or Matrix) and a exhaust jack or maybe a hi lift jack (if you have jacking points). All of which you don't have to carry around all the time and most likely weigh less than an electric winch and bar.

Except Treds I have none of the above so I don't know if it would be better than having a winch. Just spitballing.

Does anybody use an exhaust jack?

[Eevo]

i cant find the one with the exhaust jack
but got one of the winch and one of the snatch strap

https://youtu.be/DOa20qJoB8Y't=103

[Eevo]

ah, the exhaust jack

https://youtu.be/JCzqq7EeqU8?list=PLYu4Hn7PLP2x_15uy-3z7f2aEcb2z6vRN&t=324

[tact]

Hi,
Sit Rep:
Pulled off a bitumen road to check a set of roadside picnic tables as a spot to kip for the night. Heavy rain for days had us very cautious about going any where off road.

Problem:
Vic Gas had refilled a trench with soft earth between the road and the tables.

Result:
Bogged to the chassis at the rear. Front wheels on hard stand.

Not enough traction on the front to extract us forward, and that would put us on the wrong side of the trench. The Tirfur would have pulled us forward maybe but would have needed me to drive and winch at the same time.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/320.jpg

Backwards was the only way to go, but our jacks and planks were inadequate to get the wheel out of the gooey trench to get planks under them.

Fortunately we were rescued by a local with a Toyota and a short strap.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/03/321.jpg

Conclusion:
The weapon of choice here may have been a Hi-Lift Jack, although a mounted winch might have got me out - but on the wrong side of the trench.

Cheers

...and a strapped tow from another vehicle did the job nicely. Which kinda circles back to my use case: I don't go wheeling solo any more, carry my own straps and shackles.

I hadn't mentioned before but back when I was learning and listening to trainers (40 yrs ago) - the wisdom they imparted, assuming you had another vehicle around was:
- always try to recover a simple bogging with a tow strap as first resort (not snatch! Tow!). Digging and prep work may follow to help a tow strap recovery.
- then only if that fails then move on to the more dangerous activities and tools like winches and snatch straps

Most definitely there are situations when only a winch will do. I have also been in situations where 3 winches on 3 vehicles did the job but would have been nice to have a 4th vehicle with a winch - hard technical recoveries.

As someone pointed out - if you have a winch at the front, why not at the rear too?

And.....as above, you can get stuck just pulling off the tarmac for a break.

There is a line there that everyone must draw for themselves: No winch? One winch? Front and Rear winches?

[tact]

One adjunct to my anecdote as well Neil. It wouldn't have made any difference had I been in a convoy. The lead vehicle would have had to have a winch or they would all have been stuck. I've seen and heard what you do and it is no less difficult than what I do. You can't tell me either, that you're not inclined to push it a little further some times.

Nice comment cuppabillytea. Yep you have seen pics and heard some of my stories and for sure, I like to push limits.

Where those limits are, for me at least, differ somewhat tho - depending whether I have a winch fitted (the Toyota years) or not. And whether solo or in convoy with others.
- Without a winch, as already mentioned, solo into anywhere "interesting" is a no-no for me now, unless it's relatively easy to call a mate out should I get stuck.

- Without a winch, but in convoy with my regular mates who I know well and can trust for their knowledge and skills with regards to recoveries and equipment they carry - for sure I am WAY less worried (like not at all) about getting stuck. (And up to the point where a winch is the only way - I can reciprocate in kind with knowledge, skill, and gear).

Most of the guys do have winches and so in the scenario you mentioned - wouldn't have stopped us.

We practice sensible stuff like placing non-winch or low clearance vehicles between winch equipped vehicles. Once the lead vehicle winches through an obstacle its usually a strap to the one behind. As each vehicle passes the obstacle, they in turn pull the bloke behind. In situations like this you can get 6 vehicles through a challenge much quicker with straps than using winches.

(Reminds me of a tale: Back in Toyota/winch days I was lead on one trip (and yes lead can change several times in a trip to share the pain/fun). ... Had to winch myself up a muddy slope. Turned around and ran out winch for the next vehicle. So slow. Turned my 'lux around again and ran out 2 long tow straps joined together and then hauled the next 4-5 vehicles up real fast ... Tow one up, reverse, tow the next up....).

But all that is just "business as usual" type stuff.

When things turn to custard - a pretty rare thing I reckon - then for sure having a few in the group with winches is a good plan.