Lithium battery

[roverrescue]

Has anyone pulled the trigger on this style of batt
PRO Power 12V Volt 50AH Lithium ION LIFEPO4 Deep Cycle Battery Solar 4WD Caravan | eBay (http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/141862727960)

I'm looking to set up a standalone fridge solar setup in a shared dog box - lift on lift crate

These batts Are compatible with standard 12VDC charging setups and I like the power density of this style battery when you look at useable AH per kg...

Any users or am I to be the early adopter?

Steve

[NavyDiver]

http://fpdi.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/dam/fpdi/reports/storage-safety-performance-study-report.pdf

Fire risk with LI- batteries is an issue. No good way to put one out if they do start a fire is a point in this report.

[Blknight.aus]

I can only speak of the lithium batteries that are used for support gear and power tools.

good things, I suspect that they have specialist charging requriements as all of the stuff Ive played with that is fitted with them come with their own chargers.

Having read the specs on the chargers I dont think theres anything super magic about them, if you treat them as you would one of the gel pack batteriers (no trying to charge at high amperages, or higher voltages) then you're probably on the right path to looking after them properly. This is one of the cases that I think a DC/DC charger is warranted.

[korg20000bc]

You're the Dark Lord of the Lith!

[mattims]

I have used LifePO4 batteries in my track car for a few years now and they do seem pretty good except they must not be over discharged. Hopefully that preassembled pack has protection for overdischarge built in already. They seem to be okay with accepting charge pretty quickly, my car alternator gives them about 80Amp charge after a start when there a bit flat already.

My pack is one I have assembled myself out of 8 of these cells 10Ah Headway Cells.

Headway 38120 10Ah cell LiFePO4 Cell 3.2V 10Ah (http://www.evworks.com.au/headway-38120-10ah-cell-lifepo4-cell-3.2v-10ah)


A few things I have learnt.

These cells die if you over discharge them even once. Since I have fitted an automatic low voltage cuttout I have had no problems.

Balancing between cells appears to be pretty un-needed with these cells. They are all within 0.01V after two years use.

I do not get the full 20Ah capacity I should get out my cells because there are never fully charged by the alternator, as there fully charged voltage is about 16.8V, but I think the loss is only around 10%.

These cells are much much lighter than a lead acid battery of similar capacity, but to make a 100Ah pack would actually be physically bigger than a comparable deep cycle marine battery.

All of the premade packs like that one I saw seem to have pretty low current max current capacity, I am not really sure why. Mine easily puts out 250amps to the starter motor, in theory is rated to at 200amp.

When I looked the cost of pre-made cells was much higher than building it myself. Looks like they are getting closer now so it might be worth trying.

[LandyAndy]

Has anyone pulled the trigger on this style of batt
PRO Power 12V Volt 50AH Lithium ION LIFEPO4 Deep Cycle Battery Solar 4WD Caravan | eBay (http://m.ebay.com.au/itm/141862727960)

I'm looking to set up a standalone fridge solar setup in a shared dog box - lift on lift crate

These batts Are compatible with standard 12VDC charging setups and I like the power density of this style battery when you look at useable AH per kg...

Any users or am I to be the early adopter?

Steve

Send a PM to Graz.
Graham converted his Kimberley Karavan over to Lithium.Im sure he would be happy to chat about it.
He isnt all that regular on here,if you cant get him sendme a pm and I will send you his ph no.
Andrew

[roverrescue]

This site gives more specs

Pro Power 12V Volt 50ah Lithium Ion LiFePo4 Deep Cycle Battery Solar 4WD Caravan (http://www.ozimall.com.au/Pro-Power-12V-Volt-50ah-Lithium-Ion-LiFePo4-Deep-Cycle-Battery-Solar-4WD-Caravan)

If one believes what is written and hopes in the warranty it seems like a fair bet to me.
It should charge well off my blue solar mppt and 140W panel. I'll probably just run the 50AH model loosely the effective capacity of an 100AH lead acid. Less than 7kg and 200mm x 160mm x 170mm or so. Will report back once done.

For dry season camping should be all but stand alone.

Steve

[drivesafe]

I'll probably just run the 50AH model loosely the effective capacity of an 100AH lead acid.

Hi Steve and while I was not planning on posting in this thread but when I see misinformation like the above, I feel I need to warn you of the grossly misleading advertising used to sell some brands of Li batteries.

That 50Ah Li battery has 40Ah of usable capacity and if you matched it up with the operating perimeters of an Optima D34, you might find you are not getting such a good deal.

The primary advantage, particularly in your case, is the weight advantage.

But thats just about where it ends.

While you can safely discharge the D34 down to 10.5v, giving you 55Ah, the D34 is a 55Ah battery but if you cycle it no lower than 20% SoC, this will give you 44Ah, and allow you to get a similar cycle life as the Li.

The D34 will still only get about half the number of cycles but the D34 is just $310, or half the price. So two D34s will give you about the same cycle life for a similar cost.

The Li has a maximum charge current rate of 100 amps, while the D34 has no limit, other than monitoring it's temperature. But being as your alternator is the limiting factor, neither battery will give you an advantage over the other, except the D34 has no special charging requirements, so will be cheaper to set up.

If you had a high current usage situation, then the Li could be my useful but otherwise, for your apparent intended use, either battery will give you the same performance, with the Optima giving you a 10% greater usable capacity.

[roverrescue]

All good points tim.
Weight and size are certainly of significance for my thinking of setups.
My current setup of two n70 marine in parallel charged by above mentioned solar in dry season conditions hits float before 10am.

Obviously having 100 plus AH capacity is overkill!

As you say plenty of other 40-50AH options would suit me capacity wise but less than 7kg is hard to beat. A d34 is near three times the weight and 20+% bigger in two dimensions.

Regarding your other points this battery seems to be fine to charge off my mentioned setup will rarely if ever need alternator charging?

Also don't get me wrong those specs are read with grain of salt but it does say minimum capacity of 49AH down to 10v deep discharge so theoretically it does have 50ah capacity. Obviously that is only good for 1500 cycles with a softer hair enter of 70% capacity or 35ah but to be honest raw ah is not my biggest concern...

Someone's gotta try

This unit will charge nicely on my existing 12vdc solar setup and has more than enough capacity whilst weighing less than 7kg!

Someone has to fund battery technology advances may as well be me ;)

S

[TerryO]

I know several long time caravaners who have swapped over to lithium batterys in the last several years and all reckon they are the best thing there is and would never go back. Caravaners were pretty much the early adopters for Li batterys.

They all charge them through solar and have purpose built Li chargers though, so might be an idea to find out if your charger is one that will or will not cause any issues with the batterys.

[roverrescue]

Terry
It's nice to see that old I could never go back attitude !

that's the nice thing about the linked lith batt.
Max charge voltage of 14.6V the blue solar has bulk setting of 14.5V
The blue solar charger is completely modifiable so if I wanted I could drop the float voltage a little but I'll leave it for now. As I'll only be charging the lith when fridge is running meaning the Engels will hopefully protect the batt from over charging. Monitor for a bit and modify charge profile if needed.

I know some lith batt need specific charge and monitor regimes this option seems pretty ho hum in comparison. I'll just paste in the test conditions

Standard Charge/Discharge
Standard charge：Test procedure and its criteria are referred as follows：
0.2C5A= Charging shall consist of charging at a 0.5 C5A constant current rate until the cell reaches 14.6V. The cell shall then be charged at constant voltage 0f 14.6 volts while tapreing the charge current Charging shall be terminated when the charging current has tapreed to 0.02 C5A.Charge time：Approx 6.0h,The cell shall demonstrate no permanent degradation when charged between 0℃ and 45℃.
Standard Discharge: 0.2 C5A= Cells shall be discharged at a constant current of 0.2 C5A to 10.0 volts ＠20℃?5℃.
If no otherwise specified,the rest time between Charge and Discharge amount to 30min.


Time will tell

This jogger seems to be four cells packaged together as opposed to lead acid six cells...

[drivesafe]

Hi again Steve and you can simplify your charging requirements for any lithium battery by setting the charging device to the GEL setting.

This, on a solar setup will look after your lithium battery without needing any input from yourself.

Also NOTE, unlike lead acid batteries, where it is best to leave them in a fully charged state when they are not going to be used for some time, lithium batteries should not be left in a fully charged state if they are not going to be for any length of time.

While is varies from one brand to another, it is far better for a lithium battery to be stored in about a 70% charged state.

[Blknight.aus]

While is varies from one brand to another, it is far better for a lithium battery to be stored in about a 70% charged state.

Id heard charge to 90% allowing storage to drop to 80% and that you float them up to 100% every 3-6 months depending on how you're cycling them. Discharge could go as low as 30% remaining based on total AH drawn so long as the output voltage remained above the critical minimal volts for the battery.

Based loosely on how the 36v liths are performing on my ryobi stuff it seems to be pretty close

one of the other reccomendations I've been given (and I have not verified the requirement but on face value it does seem resonable to me) is no hot bulk charging. If the batteru has been working hard either let it cool off before trying to feed higher currents into it or if its still in use put just enough current on to support the load untill the battery cools and then hit it.

[roverrescue]

Talking hot charging hitachi certainly recommends avoiding hot charging on their Li ion batts.

I pick the ute up tomorrow drive back north then priority one is dog box with slide out fridge

I'll let y'all know how it swings

S

[scarry]

And on a side note,our lithium ion Hitachi cordless drill/grinder batteries don't like charging if they are hot.

Our battery drills/grinders get hammered all day at times.

In high ambients,we have continual problems with them not charging,the chargers continually trip out,which is very frustrating.

[drivesafe]

Hi again folks, I should have been more specific in my last post.

My comments relate specifically to LiFePO4 batteries ( as is what the thread is about ), not just lithium batteries in general.

Lithium-ion batteries, as used in portable battery powered tools are lithium-ion and have problems and limitations not found in LiFePO4 type batteries

[Blknight.aus]

thats one thing I dont like about my ryobi OEM chargers, if they detect the battery is hot once the charger is turned on it wont auto start when it cools down I have to either make brake the battery connection or turn the charger off and on.

[scarry]

thats one thing I dont like about my ryobi OEM chargers, if they detect the battery is hot once the charger is turned on it wont auto start when it cools down I have to either make brake the battery connection or turn the charger off and on.

Same with ours,a PITA.

In our game we are often around a cold or freezer room,so in they go for a short while:D