Articulation Comparison in Overlander

[Ace]

Did anyone see the wheel articulation comparison in the same issue as overlander as the Disco Prado comparo? It was an interesting ariticle and compared the live axle fender to the ais suspension clad D3 to the base coil spring model. The Air suspension in the D3 really makes a difference, being cross linked. matt

[broonski]

yeah, i saw that article! i read it at work!

very interesting stuff!!!

i've never been a fan of independent suspension myself...

cheers,
bryce

[Ace]

Originally posted by broonski
yeah, i saw that article! i read it at work!

very interesting stuff!!!

i've never been a fan of independent suspension myself...

cheers,
bryce

I never was, until i read how easily the Disco beat the patrol and cruiser in the 4wd monthly test. The whole purpose is to keep all 4 wheels on the ground, because when one lifts all the torque is lost via that wheel, now with advanced traction control systems you can lift a wheel and it doesnt matter, that wheel is stopped and the power diverted else where. Matt

[broonski]

Originally posted by Ace


I never was, until i read how easily the Disco beat the patrol and cruiser in the 4wd monthly test. The whole purpose is to keep all 4 wheels on the ground, because when one lifts all the torque is lost via that wheel, now with advanced traction control systems you can lift a wheel and it doesnt matter, that wheel is stopped and the power diverted else where. Matt

thats true, but unfortunately electronic bitties seem to be more prone to breaking down...
and when you're out in the middle of no-where you don't want anything to break especially if it's something you can't fix yourself.

cheers,
bryce

[Slunnie]

I dont think they are less reliable than anything else. If anything I think that cars are now more relaible than in the good old carby days, and ETC like EFI and ECU's that are on just about every modern vehicle is fine. In terms of fixing it in the bush? Well you dont. Just drive it home, the truck are not so uncapable they need ETC to drive everywhere due to limited travel or anything. The Pajero which has next to no travel from my experiences will drive some pretty impressive obstacles. The newer Landies, if anything I would bet have better reliability than that produced by our good friend Lucas and 10 spline axles.

[rmp]

Originally posted by Ace+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ace)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-broonski
yeah, i saw that article! i read it at work!

very interesting stuff!!!

i've never been a fan of independent suspension myself...

cheers,
bryce

I never was, until i read how easily the Disco beat the patrol and cruiser in the 4wd monthly test. The whole purpose is to keep all 4 wheels on the ground, because when one lifts all the torque is lost via that wheel, now with advanced traction control systems you can lift a wheel and it doesnt matter, that wheel is stopped and the power diverted else where. Matt[/b][/quote]

It *does* matter. Even if you've got twin lockers, keeping all four wheels on the ground is important. Traction control and other traction devices help, but it's better to keep rubber to ground at all times. Just take a look at a nil-articulation softroader with traction control try and keep up with a no-traction-control live-axled 4WD over uneven terrain. There is no comparison.

Having now had a chance to drive a D3 offroad the cross-linked suspension is amazing. It really does work to keep the vehicle level, and is part of what makes the D3 very effective offroad. As for total articulation, well nothing much will beat a Defender 110 (with no swaybars), so that makes anything look poor in comparision. If I had a Patrol handy for the shoot then I suspect the D3 would have comfortably out-articulated it.

Independent is the way the market is going, for better for worse!

The number of twin live-axled vehicles on the market is smaller and becoming smaller with every new model release.

[disco95]

Originally posted by rmp+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rmp)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Originally posted by Ace@
<!--QuoteBegin-broonski
yeah, i saw that article! i read it at work!

very interesting stuff!!!

i've never been a fan of independent suspension myself...

cheers,
bryce

I never was, until i read how easily the Disco beat the patrol and cruiser in the 4wd monthly test. The whole purpose is to keep all 4 wheels on the ground, because when one lifts all the torque is lost via that wheel, now with advanced traction control systems you can lift a wheel and it doesnt matter, that wheel is stopped and the power diverted else where. Matt

It *does* matter. Even if you've got twin lockers, keeping all four wheels on the ground is important. Traction control and other traction devices help, but it's better to keep rubber to ground at all times. Just take a look at a nil-articulation softroader with traction control try and keep up with a no-traction-control live-axled 4WD over uneven terrain. There is no comparison.

Having now had a chance to drive a D3 offroad the cross-linked suspension is amazing. It really does work to keep the vehicle level, and is part of what makes the D3 very effective offroad. As for total articulation, well nothing much will beat a Defender 110 (with no swaybars), so that makes anything look poor in comparision. If I had a Patrol handy for the shoot then I suspect the D3 would have comfortably out-articulated it.

Independent is the way the market is going, for better for worse!

The number of twin live-axled vehicles on the market is smaller and becoming smaller with every new model release.[/b][/quote]

Now that would've made the Nissan fans green style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[Slunnie]

I'm pretty sure in a test by 4WD monthly ages ago the Jackaroo also outramped the Patrol. The Jacks flex a lot from the rear end. The top 4WD's in terms of RTI was the TD5 ACE Disco and the LC100. I assume the LC flexs more, but it is a longer truck.

[rmp]

I know for a fact the Prado outramps a Patrol, run them back to back. Toyota do very well on the articulation front, as does Landrover. Nissan and Mitsu aren't as good in that area.

Here are two shots with the vehicles in *precisely* the same positions:

http://www.gpsvehiclenavigation.com/rmisc/CRW_2510.jpg
http://www.gpsvehiclenavigation.com/rmisc/CRW_2512.jpg

[disco95]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks as though the Defender still has a fair bit more travel up its sleeve style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[DaveS3]

Coil sprung nissan patrols have always had crap front travel. It is due to bad design that tha front is isnt 'free' like the rear end is.
Rover has always had almost the best suspension systems, the front on a RR / Disco is fantastic, it works almost independantly of the rear.

Dave.

[RichardK]

Originally posted by Slunnie
I dont think they are less reliable than anything else. If anything I think that cars are now more relaible than in the good old carby days, and ETC like EFI and ECU's that are on just about every modern vehicle is fine. In terms of fixing it in the bush? Well you dont. Just drive it home, the truck are not so uncapable they need ETC to drive everywhere due to limited travel or anything. The Pajero which has next to no travel from my experiences will drive some pretty impressive obstacles. The newer Landies, if anything I would bet have better reliability than that produced by our good friend Lucas and 10 spline axles.

When we did our High Country trip in March we lost traction control ion the first day and didn't get it back until a visit to a dealer in Shepparton on the way home.
We were able to negotiate some very steep tracks, particularly the Wombat Ridge track from the Wonnangatta end pulling our camper trailer which is large and heavy without TC and the grip on the ground was superb, those following said the suspension was a joy to watch as it kept all four wheels in contact with the ground............it never hesitated.

[rmp]

Originally posted by disco95
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks as though the Defender still has a fair bit more travel up its sleeve style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

You are wrong, the wheel is juuuust off the ground. The Patrol's wheel is a lot further off the ground, largely because the front end isn't working anywhere near as well.

[rmp]

Originally posted by RichardK+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RichardK)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Slunnie
I dont think they are less reliable than anything else. If anything I think that cars are now more relaible than in the good old carby days, and ETC like EFI and ECU's that are on just about every modern vehicle is fine. In terms of fixing it in the bush? Well you dont. Just drive it home, the truck are not so uncapable they need ETC to drive everywhere due to limited travel or anything. The Pajero which has next to no travel from my experiences will drive some pretty impressive obstacles. The newer Landies, if anything I would bet have better reliability than that produced by our good friend Lucas and 10 spline axles.

When we did our High Country trip in March we lost traction control ion the first day and didn't get it back until a visit to a dealer in Shepparton on the way home.
We were able to negotiate some very steep tracks, particularly the Wombat Ridge track from the Wonnangatta end pulling our camper trailer which is large and heavy without TC and the grip on the ground was superb, those following said the suspension was a joy to watch as it kept all four wheels in contact with the ground............it never hesitated.[/b][/quote]

And that is my point. Real 4WDs use TC to make a good car even better, they don't rely on it to get anywhere at all. And as a result the TC doesn't get over-used. I recently drove one softroader up a rocky hill and the TC worked so hard it just gave up and died for a while.

[DaveS3]

Originally posted by Slunnie
I dont think they are less reliable than anything else. If anything I think that cars are now more relaible than in the good old carby days, and ETC like EFI and ECU's that are on just about every modern vehicle is fine. In terms of fixing it in the bush? Well you dont. Just drive it home, the truck are not so uncapable they need ETC to drive everywhere due to limited travel or anything.

No you dont need ETC do drive anywhere but you need your EFI and ECU systems working. If an ECU kills itself your stuffed, as if you kill a few EFI sensors, your motor will sometimes hardly run.
At least with old stuff you can normally get things going together.
But anyway, it rarely happens. Its more mechanical parts that do die more regulary.

Dave.

[timberwolf_302]

You cant beat a Coil Sprung Land Rovers suspension setup for a nice ride in rough stuff. The way they fold themselves to the terrain just reminds you why you like em over the japanese trucks.

The way you can attack a rut riddled hill, low range 4th flat stick and just sit back and enjoy it, rather then tense up and hold on tight like in something like a cruiser or a patrol.

Thats my opinion anyway

[hiline]

Originally posted by timberwolf_302
You cant beat a Coil Sprung Land Rovers suspension setup for a nice ride in rough stuff. The way they fold themselves to the terrain just reminds you why you like em over the japanese trucks.

The way you can attack a rut riddled hill, low range 4th flat stick and just sit back and enjoy it, rather then tense up and hold on tight like in something like a cruiser or a patrol.

Thats my opinion anyway

how true style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

i hate getting in my mates hilux :evil: :evil: :evil:
thats on the road never mind off road 8O 8O 8O
plus i get very embarrassed as well :oops: :oops: :oops: what would people say if they saw me

[Ace]

That Nissan/Defender comparison only serves to prove why land rovers go further off road in standard conditions. Matt

[p38arover]

Originally posted by rmp
Here are two shots with the vehicles in *precisely* the same positions:

Robert, that really is an unfair claim! 8O

The 110 has a wheelbase of (according to the LR website) 2794 mm

The Patrol has a wheelbase of (according to the Nissan website) 2970 mm

Therefore, assuming the front wheels have been placed on the same stick, the rear wheel of the Patrol is nearly 200mm further back than the 110's wheel.

That means the Patrol's wheel is further up the slope and should be touching - yet it's not.

See, you were being unfair to the 110. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Ron

[Ace]

Originally posted by p38arover+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(p38arover)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-rmp
Here are two shots with the vehicles in *precisely* the same positions:

Robert, that really is an unfair claim! 8O

The 110 has a wheelbase of (according to the LR website) 2794 mm

The Patrol has a wheelbase of (according to the Nissan website) 2970 mm

Therefore, assuming the front wheels have been placed on the same stick, the rear wheel of the Patrol is nearly 200mm further back than the 110's wheel.

That means the Patrol's wheel is further up the slope and should be touching - yet it's not.

See, you were being unfair to the 110. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Ron[/b][/quote]

I thought i was going to have to smack you around a bit then Ron, but its ok, you redeemed your self with the last sentence. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

[p38arover]

Originally posted by Ace
I thought i was going to have to smack you around a bit then Ron, but its ok, you redeemed your self with the last sentence. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

Bugger! I haven't been smacked around for ages. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Ron

If a masochist says "Beat me, beat me!" to a sadist, what does the sadist reply?



























"No!"

[rmp]

Both vehicles were at the same angle and the front wheels were in the same place.

Both have the rear driver's side wheel in the air. Yes, there is a wheelbase difference so I suppose it could be said I'm being unfair to the 110.

[p38arover]

Originally posted by rmp
I suppose it could be said I'm being unfair to the 110.

As long as you realise it! style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Ron

[Disco300Tdi]

Originally posted by hiline+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hiline)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-timberwolf_302
You cant beat a Coil Sprung Land Rovers suspension setup for a nice ride in rough stuff. The way they fold themselves to the terrain just reminds you why you like em over the japanese trucks.

The way you can attack a rut riddled hill, low range 4th flat stick and just sit back and enjoy it, rather then tense up and hold on tight like in something like a cruiser or a patrol.

Thats my opinion anyway

how true style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif

i hate getting in my mates hilux :evil: :evil: :evil:
thats on the road never mind off road 8O 8O 8O
plus i get very embarrassed as well :oops: :oops: :oops: what would people say if they saw me[/b][/quote]

"There goes Ray in Shanes' Hilux" :roll: :wink:

[rmp]

OK here's the pic:

http://www.gpsvehiclenavigation.com/rmisc/front-artic2.jpg

[Ace]

Originally posted by rmp
OK here's the pic:

http://www.gpsvehiclenavigation.com/rmisc/front-artic2.jpg

Now that is a good shot, you can tell it is the D3 in the middle that has the cross linked air suspension.
























I also know that because i read the article. Matt

[disco95]

Hey Rob, just how good are the coil sprung D3's?

[rmp]

Originally posted by disco95
Hey Rob, just how good are the coil sprung D3's?

Personally, I don't know. But the current Overlander (Sept) has a review of a coil D3.

From what I've seen, and having driven the air version with Terrain Response, I don't think they'd go anywhere near as good offroad. Firstly they lack articulation, as above. And there is no cross-link. I drove the D3 with a bunch of experienced 4WDers in the back and we all noticed how level the vehicle was over rough terrain, it's impressive. So I think the suspension is the biggest loss (you also lose the extra high ride setting), but Terrain Response is pretty good too, it really does permit the vehicle to make the best out of the available traction.

So what that means is while the air D3 is a formidable offroad vehicle, the coil is just good and would be in the Pajero class. But I don't know for sure until I try.

[disco95]

That's kind of how I saw it, but as you said, "you don't really know till you get behind the wheel yourself.
Just musing for the future. I'm going the D2 route early next year, 5 years down the track I'll be thinking about a D3.

[Ace]

Originally posted by disco95
That's kind of how I saw it, but as you said, "you don't really know till you get behind the wheel yourself.
Just musing for the future. I'm going the D2 route early next year, 5 years down the track I'll be thinking about a D3.

Thats the path i might go down when Stacey starts teaching and we have the two pay packets. Matt