New Territory engine in D3, Engine System Fault, please help

[winaje]

Hi all, you might be aware that I'm putting a Territory motor in my D3. We have gotten to the "start day" today, and have got almost everything done. Still needs brake fluid and bleed (no fluid yet in system), and also needs a couple of connectors plugged in, such as the front suspension distribution valve block. So, the vehicle cranks easily, and we have checked that there is diesel at the main bleed valve at the rail on top of the motor. But, it will not fire at all. There are multiple system faults that are coming up, such as HDC, Park Brake, Transmission etc... These are possibly because of connectors not plugged in. BUT, would this stop the engine from firing at all? Maybe because there is no brake fluid?

Hope to have more info tomorrow when we will lift the whole car again and go over it from front to back for all the connectors etc.

Thanks

[Nomad9]

Hi Winajie,
My suspicion would be that if a faulty brake light switch can bring one of these highly complex vehicle to its knees disconnected wires could well be the reason it won't start. Just a suspicion.
Cheers Marty

[Graeme]

Is there pressurised fuel in the rail?

Are the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors connected? However if not then I doubt the starter would be operated due to an open circuit on either making it futile to look for timing pulses.

[winaje]

Fuel in the rail, yes. Brake switch is nearly new. Have pulled the body again to replace the crank and cam sensors with the original LR ones, in case the Ford ones give different readings. If this doesn't work, then I'll fully reassemble the car and trailer it to an Indie to have it diagnosed.

[90 Rangie]

With how the electrics work on these cars I would make sure first that all connectors are connected and I have brake fluid etc in. Would not expect you need all this but you never know.

[Graeme]

I assume that you are using the special fitting/alignment tool for the crankshaft position sensor on the basis that its the same as the 3.0.

Edit: Sorry, the reluctor ring requires a special tool, not the sensor itself.

[winaje]

OK, some more info. Have reassembled car today, also replaced diesel filter, but it's still not firing or starting. Found that there is no diesel coming out of the drain at the bottom of the filter. Should there be fuel coming from this drain if I remove the drain plug completely from the drain port? It seems to me that there is no, or very little, diesel in the low pressure rails. I had a look at:

https://youtu.be/j6Bjr7axS00

and I do not get the small fountain of diesel like in the video. I'm horrified at the price of replacement pump/sender units; has anyone had success in repairing the pump?

Thanks

[Bundalene]

Are you around Mark LR Hybrid?

He had similar fuel pressure issues when he put a Territory engine into his D3. took him ages to sort but his D3 is great now.




Erich

[Graeme]

You've probably been through the cycle umpteen times anyway but in case it has a fuel cut-off the same as the D4 and it has been triggerred then to reset the cut-off:
1. put vehicle in park
2. switch off the ignition and wait 15 minutes
3. switch on the ignition and wait 30 seconds
4. start the engine

[DazzaTD5]

Glad to see its all back together, i havent had time to follow your progress...

*With the fuel system bleed valve at the top / back of engine, I use a connector that screws on with clear fuel line into a container, you have to make sure there are no bubbles of air left in the system.

*Also, while you have rectified this (and its only a passing comment) remember talking back with regards to check all ancillary parts are interchangeable, if in doubt use the Land Rover ones.... the crankshaft or any sensor would have fallen into this..

*Also I'd complete the install, as in everything plugged in that should be plugged in, otherwise you are adding more unknown variables into the equation.

Regards
Daz

P.S the norm when changing fuel filters is to cycle the ignition... on for 10 secs or so (you will hear the pump turn off) then ignition off, do that say 5 times, then bleed the top screw.

[DazzaTD5]

You've probably been through the cycle umpteen times anyway but in case it has a fuel cut-off the same as the D4 and it has been triggerred then to reset the cut-off:
1. put vehicle in park
2. switch off the ignition and wait 15 minutes
3. switch on the ignition and wait 30 seconds
4. start the engine

Yes actually as Graeme has said above..

Regards
Daz

[winaje]

Ok, update:

Have tried to bleed the HP end, very little diesel wells out of the fitting. Have tested that there is power on crank to the solenoid on the HP pump. Have checked fuses, relays, etc., all seem good. Have also tested the fuel temperature sensor, the resistance drops as it is heated up, so it seems to be working.

This leads me back to an earlier question: Should I have diesel fall out of the bottom of the filter, from the water drain port? Bear in mind it's an 09 model, so is the short cassette style filter, not the large tube style. When I pull the water drain out, and turn the key to position 2 (lights on) there is no diesel present at the drain. I would have thought that the system should be at least partly pressurised, to lift the diesel to the HP pump. And therefore that when I introduce a depressurising "leak" by removing the drain, that diesel should be forced out of the drain...? This does not occur. I plan to get a few feet of pipe tomorrow and unplug the fuel pipe into the HPFP, plug hose onto the pipe, and feed it into a drum. Should the LPFP continue to pump if there is no pressure? I basically want to pump a couple of litres through it if I can...

Thanks for your ongoing assistance, we will get this damned thing running eventually...

[Graeme]

Fuel should flow from the filter drain at least for a while when the ignition is first switched on.

Have you jumpered the LPFP relay to force the pump to run (bridge the large terminals)? If you can't identify the relay (engine panel R8 (micro) on a D4) then provide power directly to the pump's fuse.

[winaje]

Fuel should flow from the filter drain at least for a while when the ignition is first switched on.

Have you jumpered the LPFP relay to force the pump to run (bridge the large terminals)? If you can't identify the relay (engine panel R8 (micro) on a D4) then provide power directly to the pump's fuse.

Thanks Graeme. I have checked the fuse and the relay, both are fine; the relay clicks when turning the ignition on, also swapped it with another realy with the same markings from in the fuse box. I've posted the same question regarding the filter drain on disco3 forum in the UK, and am told that the diesel is held in the filter by vacuum, so doesn't drain out. This doesn't make "sense" to me however, as why would you put a drain on the bottom then hold the fluid so that it can't drain. I'm thinking that the pump is not working properly. I'm off to buy 3m of tube to put on the end of the feed pipe just before the schrader valve, and see if the pump can push fuel.

[Graeme]

I would not expect fuel to drain with the ignition off if the HPFP solenoid releases pressure when off. However with the ignition on the pump has to run to prime the system to present pressure to the HPFP so fuel should flow from the drain or bleed valve if open.

I agree that the pump appears not to be operating, hopefully caused by a broken wire, poor connector contact or poor earth rather than a failed pump. If the fuel was too low then the relay wouldn't operate.

Edit: The D4 diesel fuel pump has 2 earth connections, with the 2nd one in place of a fuel pump module used by the petrol engines. If one of those earths is missing then the pump wont run but I don't know if your D3 is the same.

Another edit: Your D3 only has 1 earth for the fuel pump. The fuel gauge operating is not indicative of the pump having earth.

[winaje]

Thanks again Graeme. Approx 65 litres in the tank (but no drain plug, that'll be fun). I got under the car and pulled the drain plug, turned ignition to ON, heard pump "noise" but not a drop from the filter drain. Yeah hopefully it's something stupidly easy, like a dodgy wire or earth. I'm convinced that the whole issue is going to be something simple...

[Graeme]

No kinked lines between the tank and filter housing?

[LandyAndy]

My thoughts too.I wonder if a fuel line is kinked or got crushed whilst swaping the mojos.
Andrew

[winaje]

OK, have just gone and plugged a 5m length of 8mm clear hose on the LP pipe that goes into the schrader valve, then run it into a new diesel plastic can. Cycled the ignition 5 times, and it feels like about 1.5 litres of diesel was pumped into the can. The LP pump is on a timer, about 20 seconds each time I think. Diesel was clean and free of bubbles. I can only assume therefore that the LP pump is working at least somewhat, and that diesel is passing through the filter, as I can't imagine that there is over a litre in the lines.

The saga continues...

[Ean Austral]

I don't know if it's even possible but you haven't got the fuel lines connect the wrong way around at the fuel cooler or else where have you?

Just a thought.

Cheers Ean

[winaje]

I don't know if it's even possible but you haven't got the fuel lines connect the wrong way around at the fuel cooler or else where have you?

Just a thought.

Cheers Ean

I don't believe so Ean, because if that was the case, I'd not expect to get diesel flowing from the correct pipe...?

[Ean Austral]

I don't believe so Ean, because if that was the case, I'd not expect to get diesel flowing from the correct pipe...?


I haven't studied the fuel system enough to offer D3 direct advice , but is it possible a return line is blocked or kinked and it has built up a back pressure type issue ?


I am only pulling idea's from problems I have seen on other engine's.


I recall reading where someone tried to adapt a late model gearbox to an early engine and they wouldn't talk to each other due to different software , your not trying to fit a late engine to an early car and that could be the issue ?


Best of luck


Cheers Ean

[winaje]

Thanks Ean. Fitting a EU4 motor in place of an EU4 motor, so it should work ok from what I have read and from what others have done in the same situation. At this stage I'm going to pull the tank tomorrow, and see what condition the filter/pump/sender module is in.

[LandyAndy]

OK, have just gone and plugged a 5m length of 8mm clear hose on the LP pipe that goes into the schrader valve, then run it into a new diesel plastic can. Cycled the ignition 5 times, and it feels like about 1.5 litres of diesel was pumped into the can. The LP pump is on a timer, about 20 seconds each time I think. Diesel was clean and free of bubbles. I can only assume therefore that the LP pump is working at least somewhat, and that diesel is passing through the filter, as I can't imagine that there is over a litre in the lines.

The saga continues...


I wouldnt go pulling the tank just yet if you are getting a flow.Can you remove the schrader valve and put a hose over that and check the flow???,assuming that isnt the test you just did.

Another thought,how long was the new engine out of a vehicle???? Its possible a mud wasp has blocked a fuel line and worth checking any fuel connections.Also make sure they click home correctly.

We get mud wasps in the trailers at work,you cannot get the brakes off if a wasp has made a nest in a fitting;););););)
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Its probably been covered,instead of reading back.
Have you got the D3 or Territory fuel pressure reg fitted???
Worth the check.
See if they are the same part no,Fuel Pressure Regulator TDV6 (VDO) 1357062 1387695 Island 4x4 - Specialists in Land Rover and Range Rover Parts and accessories for all models. UK and worldwide mail order. (http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/fuel-pressure-regulator-tdv6-1357062-1387695-p-34103.html)
Andrew

[winaje]

I wouldnt go pulling the tank just yet if you are getting a flow.Can you remove the schrader valve and put a hose over that and check the flow???,assuming that isnt the test you just did.

Another thought,how long was the new engine out of a vehicle???? Its possible a mud wasp has blocked a fuel line and worth checking any fuel connections.Also make sure they click home correctly.

We get mud wasps in the trailers at work,you cannot get the brakes off if a wasp has made a nest in a fitting;););););)
Andrew

Thanks Andy. I disconnected the quick release pipe that plugs into the schrader valve housing. The schrader is about 25mm from the connector. So as there is flow from the end of the pipe where it plugs into the schrader housing, I can only assume that there is flow into the housing and therefore to the HPFP intake itself. It's probably 125mm of hard plastic pipe from the schrader housing to the HPFP.

The new motor had all fitting connected up until I took delivery of it. It was sitting in a shed on a farm for a couple of months, under a rug. I've used all LR parts right to the schrader valve housing.

Where is the fuel pressure regulator you refer to? Is it mounted on the motor or elsewhere?

Thanks again.

[LandyAndy]

Unsure where it would be,just know in any fuel injected vehicle that the fuel pressure regulator is very important.If its not working it allows fuel pressure to bypass back to the tank;);););)
I just googled the Frog Island one to get a part number for you to compare to what you have.I would have thought both engine versions would run the same unit.
Cheers
Andrew

[winaje]

OK, update: have tested fuel pressure at the schrader valve. It's supposed to be .6 bar, but it tests at .35bar. Have removed and refitted the new Bearmach diesel filter, it was full of diesel. Have bled the low pressure pipe from just before the schrader housing. Have used a bit of Aerostart, and the engine fires on the Aerostart. BUT it doesn't fire on diesel. So it seems probable to me that the problem is fuel delivery related. Ive been reading a document from disco3 that talks about the pressure control valve on the HPFP. It says: "In the event of a total failure of the fuel rail pressure control valve, the engine will not start." I have checked the voltage at the wires to this sensor, and it's 4.95v with the ignition turned on, and it does not change while cranking. According to the info, the voltage applied varies between 0 and 12v.

Does anyone know of a way to test this PCV? It's just a solenoid, can I safely apply 12v directly to it and see if the car starts?

Thanks again.

[Graeme]

According to the WSM, the D4's 2.7 HPFP requires a supply pressure in the range of -0.3 to +0.5 bar.

During starting, the fuel rail pressure must be at least 150 bar. Do you have a gauge that can measure this?

Can you determine if the injectors are being powered?

Do you have diagnostics capable of showing the rail pressure?

Can you determine if the pressure control valve is being operated, ie not left open by the ECM? I suspect a pwm signal is used as the valve is variable position.

Can you determine if the volume control valve is being operated, ie not left closed preventing any fuel intake to the HPFP?

[Graeme]

Is the HPFP your original or the Territory's?

Do you have access to a diagnostic tool to read the fault codes that will exist if any problems with the VCV or PCV?

[Graeme]

I have checked the voltage at the wires to this sensor, and it's 4.95v with the ignition turned on, and it does not change while cranking. According to the info, the voltage applied varies between 0 and 12v.

Does anyone know of a way to test this PCV? It's just a solenoid, can I safely apply 12v directly to it and see if the car starts?

Thanks again.
The PCV signal will be pwm at around 40% duty cycle for your meter to show around 5V, with the 40% duty cycle partly closing the valve to provide some rail pressure as the valve is open when without power. Applying 12V to obtain full pump pressure should not be required and may subject the rail and injectors to excessive pressure.

You can check the solenoid's coil for continuity but if you can hear the valve click (which it probably wont without full 12V applied) when the ignition is first switched on then its working.

[winaje]

The PCV signal will be pwm at around 40% duty cycle for your meter to show around 5V, with the 40% duty cycle partly closing the valve to provide some rail pressure as the valve is open when without power. Applying 12V to obtain full pump pressure should not be required and may subject the rail and injectors to excessive pressure.

You can check the solenoid's coil for continuity but if you can hear the valve click (which it probably wont without full 12V applied) when the ignition is first switched on then its working.

Thanks Graeme. I see 5v at the wires from the loom. I applied 12v briefly (10 seconds) and heard the solenoid click, then immediately hit the starter.

THE ENGINE STARTED IMMEDIATELY YAAAAYYYYYYYYYY :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I'll go and reconnect the loom to the PCV and see what happens...

OK, when reconnecting the loom (wires either way) and confirming that I get the 5v at the positive wire before connecting it, I can't get it to start...??? So I know exactly where the problem is, but not the exact cause of the problem. On the plus side, the engine sounds smooth, quiet and sweet...

Can anyone advise of a reason that the ECM is not providing enough voltage to "actuate" the PCV, thereby allowing the vehicle to start?

[Meken]

OK, update: have tested fuel pressure at the schrader valve. It's supposed to be .6 bar, but it tests at .35bar. Have removed and refitted the new Bearmach diesel filter, it was full of diesel. Have bled the low pressure pipe from just before the schrader housing. Have used a bit of Aerostart, and the engine fires on the Aerostart. BUT it doesn't fire on diesel. So it seems probable to me that the problem is fuel delivery related. Ive been reading a document from disco3 that talks about the pressure control valve on the HPFP. It says: "In the event of a total failure of the fuel rail pressure control valve, the engine will not start." I have checked the voltage at the wires to this sensor, and it's 4.95v with the ignition turned on, and it does not change while cranking. According to the info, the voltage applied varies between 0 and 12v.

Does anyone know of a way to test this PCV? It's just a solenoid, can I safely apply 12v directly to it and see if the car starts?

Thanks again.


Sounds like you installed a cesna engine instead of the territory ;)

[LandyAndy]

May have just had a bit of crap caught in it,see how you go when its wired correctly.
Andrew

[winaje]

May have just had a bit of crap caught in it,see how you go when its wired correctly.
Andrew

Hi Andy, as I edited above, it doesn't start when the PCV is connected to the loom. I've tried the wires connected both ways too...

[LandyAndy]

Is the PCV the Territory or Disco item,if its the territory its a possability it runs on a different voltage.Is it possible to swap the parts out or is that another body off procedure?????
Andrew

[winaje]

Is the PCV the Territory or Disco item,if its the territory its a possability it runs on a different voltage.Is it possible to swap the parts out or is that another body off procedure?????
Andrew


PCV is from the territory. I've had a guy I know who has a D3 check the input voltage to the PCV on his D3. He has 13.07v at the plug. He's also doing a territory engine swap, has his donor territory available. I can get him to test the voltage to the territory PCV if you think it's worth it?

Thanks

[Graeme]

Can you get your hands on either a multi-meter that shows pwm or an oscilloscope so that you can determine for sure that you are getting an analogue signal or a pwm signal and if pwm, the voltage? A voltmeter function cannot show you the specifics.

The pcv is ecm-controlled so you should be using the LR version unless you can confirm they are identical.

Anyway, you're making progress.

[winaje]

Can you get your hands on either a multi-meter that shows pwm or an oscilloscope so that you can determine for sure that you are getting an analogue signal or a pwm signal and if pwm, the voltage? A voltmeter function cannot show you the specifics.

The pcv is ecm-controlled so you should be using the LR version unless you can confirm they are identical.

Anyway, you're making progress.

Nooo, don't tell me that! lol. The PCV is integral to the HPFP and evidently can't be swapped out. Will see what I can do about finding out the info you mentioned.

[Graeme]

Does the Volume Control Valve seem to be operating? Its also a pwm-operated valve controlled by the ecm and if it isn't closing sufficiently then there wont be proper output from the pump for the pcv to appear to work properly. That there's enough fuel pressure with 12V applied to the pcv for the engine to run could be because the vcv is allowing too much LP fuel to pass directly to the return line for the start-up pcv opening duty cycle to build enough pressure. Can you confirm that the vcv is being powered?

BTW, a solenoid that's operated by a 12V pwm signal with varying duty cycle to vary to flow usually gets around 85% duty cycle to open fully, so 100%, ie constant 12V, should not be detrimental to the solenoid.

[winaje]

Ok all. The D3 runs!!!

What was the problem? User error...! I (or someone else) had accidentally plugged the Pressure Control Valve wiring into the Fuel Temperature Sensor! They are the same plugs, and are in the same area. So, with the help of a forumite from disco3 who lives in QLD, we were able to compare his D3 wiring and mine. I then worked out the error. Once bodging together a dodgy connection, she starts immediately and runs smoothly.

[LandyAndy]

AWESOME NEWS:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::coo l::cool:
ENJOY
Andrew

[Ean Austral]

Great stuff . Look forward to seeing some reports of it in action.

Cheers Ean

[Graeme]

So the 4.95V would have been 4.95V analogue for the FT sensor rather than a pwm signal. Unfortunately if you had been able to verify the signal type then perhaps you would have found the fault earlier and saved some hair! Next time?

[LandyAndy]

So the 4.95V would have been 4.95V analogue for the FT sensor rather than a pwm signal. Unfortunately if you had been able to verify the signal type then perhaps you would have found the fault earlier and saved some hair! Next time?

I would be well and truly up for the engine swap,easy peasy.
But a miss connected connection like this would kill me too.The electonic signals are way beyond me.
Andrew

[DazzaTD5]

Ok all. The D3 runs!!!

What was the problem? User error...! I (or someone else) had accidentally plugged the Pressure Control Valve wiring into the Fuel Temperature Sensor! They are the same plugs, and are in the same area. So, with the help of a forumite from disco3 who lives in QLD, we were able to compare his D3 wiring and mine. I then worked out the error. Once bodging together a dodgy connection, she starts immediately and runs smoothly.

I forgot also to advise.... take lots of pics with your phone before and during removal, to prevent this very simple mistake but ohhh sooo VERY frustrating.... great you found it and have the beast running.

I was updating my reading to see how far you had got, Graeme was providing plenty of info, directions and asking all the right questions etc, so i wasnt going to input anymore...

I was getting the sinking feeling when you had got to the point of mentioning the fuel solenoid (PCV) being from the territory. So the High Pressure Fuel Pump is the Territory pump correct??
(for others: this is on top at the back of the engine and is belt driven from one of the camshafts).

and just a passing after the fact comment...
On a common rail diesel engine, the high pressure side of the fuel system (outlet from the high pressure pump, the "common" rail/s, the injector pipes) typically while running on idle will be around 3000psi - 5000psi (yes thousand) and upto round 35,000psi under full load, its not good practice to "crack and bleed" that side of the fuel system, and there is no need to do this, pressure comes up during cranking and drops off very quickly on shut off, the fuel regulator on the rail will "bleed" up that part as needed.

Regards
Daz

[Homestar]

Ok all. The D3 runs!!!

What was the problem? User error...! I (or someone else) had accidentally plugged the Pressure Control Valve wiring into the Fuel Temperature Sensor! They are the same plugs, and are in the same area. So, with the help of a forumite from disco3 who lives in QLD, we were able to compare his D3 wiring and mine. I then worked out the error. Once bodging together a dodgy connection, she starts immediately and runs smoothly.

Well, at least your early thought was correct - you were sure it was going to be something simple. :)

Simple things can be hard to find though - great news it's a goer. :)

[winaje]

I forgot also to advise.... take lots of pics with your phone before and during removal, to prevent this very simple mistake but ohhh sooo VERY frustrating.... great you found it and have the beast running.

I was updating my reading to see how far you had got, Graeme was providing plenty of info, directions and asking all the right questions etc, so i wasnt going to input anymore...

I was getting the sinking feeling when you had got to the point of mentioning the fuel solenoid (PCV) being from the territory. So the High Pressure Fuel Pump is the Territory pump correct??
(for others: this is on top at the back of the engine and is belt driven from one of the camshafts).

and just a passing after the fact comment...
On a common rail diesel engine, the high pressure side of the fuel system (outlet from the high pressure pump, the "common" rail/s, the injector pipes) typically while running on idle will be around 3000psi - 5000psi (yes thousand) and upto round 35,000psi under full load, its not good practice to "crack and bleed" that side of the fuel system, and there is no need to do this, pressure comes up during cranking and drops off very quickly on shut off, the fuel regulator on the rail will "bleed" up that part as needed.

Regards
Daz

Yes, the new motor has Territory HPFP, injectors, EGRs etc. Plan to block the EGR's shortly, as soon as the money factor allows. Was hoping to have taken more photos and a more methodical approach, but after 3.5 months, I only cared about getting it running again...

[Ean Austral]

Gday Winaje,


By chance did you notice if the viscous fan on the Territory engine is the same as the D3 .


Cheers Ean

[winaje]

Gday Winaje,


By chance did you notice if the viscous fan on the Territory engine is the same as the D3 .


Cheers Ean

This I do know, lol. The Territory runs thermo fans. When swapping to a Territory motor you need to transfer the bracket for the viscous fan bearing, and also have to use the Discovery cam belt cover, as it has the hole for the bearing.