Cooper tyres on 110

[travelrover]

Hi all

Has anyone had experience with Cooper S/T MAXX 235/85R16's on a defender 110?

I had two fitted to the rear on the weekend (on advice from the local tyre specialist). Prior to this I had Michelin XZY 750R16's which were due for replacement. I was looking for a quality tyre with a long life. Still have Michelin's on the front.

The Coopers are certainly quieter but the vehicle (ute) feels unstable on the rear and for the first time ever I got in a rear slide driving home on a (gravel) road I drive everyday, and have done for 20 years.

Have I got the wrong tyre? Would it likely improve if I spend the additional $660 and fit them to the front?

Appreciate any guidance.


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app

[billsdefender1996]

Hi there, I run B F Goodrich 235 x 85 A/T Excellent tyre, Frist set lasted 90,000kms no punctures, and never rotated them either. Also have a set of Goodrich M/T. Great tyre. The current set of A/T did the Cape York and telegraph Track run last year, got back undamaged, this set now has 40,000Kms on them. Had a set of Coopers for a while. Had two total failures one in the tread and one in the side wall at about 50,000kms. Would never use them again. The tyres were ok but didn't last. Cheers Bill

[travelrover]

Thanks Bill

I used to run those BFG's on a range rover back in the 80's, from memory I had no issues with them.

Re the Coopers I rang the Cooper support line and they told me the pressure should not be more than 32. The shop put 40 in so I will lower and see how we go.
Simon


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app

[BigBlueOne]

I have a set of Cooper AT3's in 235/85 and although they are not the same tyre i have had no issues and find them great.

[Chenz]

Had Cooper STs on my 110 and now on my 130 have done Hay River Track, Madigan Line, Anne Beadell, Cape York Telegraph Track Birdsville Inside Track, Cross country Simpson West east via Geosurveys Hill and apart from a couple of minor punctures on sharp mulga roots I have had no problem with them

[Pateyw]

I had cooper stt on my 130 defender all of which failed from side wall blow outs
With only 15-20K on them .
And don't try getting any support or warranty as its your fault you were running the wrong tyre pressures .
My suggestion is sell them off for landfill or some form of recycling because they will let you down
STAY AWAY FROM COOPER TYRES .
just google reveiws .

[defmec]

I had Coopers 235 on my 130 when i bought it. Driving in wet condition was dangerous. Sold them straight away and got bf good 255s. Will never recommend Cooper to anyone

[Babs]

I currently have Cooper St Maxx 265/75/16 on my Puma, had them on my last Puma, have them on my Colorado 7, had them on my Colorado ute, had them on my Hilux, had them on my Nissan Patrol, I think you get the picture.

The Coopers used to have a bad rep over 10 years ago but the compound and manufacturing had changed.

I love them haven't had a problem with any of them.

Strongest sidewall protection of any tyre on the market.

Here is how it works - they are a three ply sidewall, yes just like the BFG but here is the difference.
The sidewall thickness is measured by Denier, BFG has 3,000 Denier 1,000 Denier each ply, whereas Coopers has a 5,000 Denier sidewall, 2,000 Denier 1st ply, 2,000 Denier 2nd ply and the third which is a cross ply is 1,000 Denier.
So the Coopers have a stronger stiffer sidewall.

I recommend them ✅✅✅

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Toxic_Avenger]

I'm still a newb with 4wd tyre tech... I've never purchased 4wd tyres before (but I'm almost due to), and usually always run 'street slicks' on the 300zx due to the massive amounts of grip that I get (got more grip on 16" 235's than on 18" 265's).

As I understand, the tread design is one thing (in addition to the HT/AT/MT styles), but composition also helps- things like silica assist with grip at low speed, but firm up at higher speed (ie grippier in rock crawling / offroad, less rolling resistance and better wear at highway speeds).

Wouldn't a stiffer sidewall like the 5000 denier coopers prevent bagging at low pressures, and reduce grip offroad? Or is it more a compromise between keeping the bead seated and bagging?

My short list was BFG's or Coopers... not sure how Goodyear's stack up for the coin (i hear they are rather pricy).

So yeah... I'm staying tuned for more advice. top thread.

[Babs]

I'm still a newb with 4wd tyre tech... I've never purchased 4wd tyres before (but I'm almost due to), and usually always run 'street slicks' on the 300zx due to the massive amounts of grip that I get (got more grip on 16" 235's than on 18" 265's). As I understand, the tread design is one thing (in addition to the HT/AT/MT styles), but composition also helps- things like silica assist with grip at low speed, but firm up at higher speed (ie grippier in rock crawling / offroad, less rolling resistance and better wear at highway speeds). Wouldn't a stiffer sidewall like the 5000 denier coopers prevent bagging at low pressures, and reduce grip offroad? Or is it more a compromise between keeping the bead seated and bagging? My short list was BFG's or Coopers... not sure how Goodyear's stack up for the coin (i hear they are rather pricy). So yeah... I'm staying tuned for more advice. top thread.


Yes to the Coopers bagging less, and Goodyear have a 2 ply sidewall, 1,000 each so in total only 2,000 denier. They pride themselves in other areas. Me preferably have more confidence in a stronger sidewall.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Michael2]

If you were happy with the Michellins, why not go back to them.

I've got the Michellin LTX AT2 (235/85R16) on my 110. They have a 3ply sidewall, are quiet, good in the wet and last a long time. I replaced the last set with 100,000km on them and they were still legal. 20,000km of that 100K was off road (Cape York, Tanami, Gulf, Kimberley...)

I can only give 3rd party comment on the Coopers, I've heard too many bad reports from owners and tyre shops about them. One guy at work with a set on his Patrol has had 14 warranty replacements. Coopers don't want to replace them, so he sits in the tyre shop each time till they do. That's the youngest 14 days of his life gone.

[travelrover]

Well there seem to be two opposing camps here! Thanks for all the comments.

Yes I was generally happy with the Michelin's. The concerns were they are noisy, quite hard to find and for the money the life was not brilliant. They did perform well and seem to be light years ahead of coopers in terms of safety which at the end of the day is the most important point. I had heard good things about coopers recently and google searches supported that and they were also recommend by a local tyre shop (incidentally not the one I purchased them from) but would happily revert to Michelin's.

Anyone interested in buying a pair of coopers? Less than 300kms on them at present :-)

Cheers
Simon


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app

[MrLandy]

Another under-rated option are Bridgestone 661 AT's (235/85R16). I've posted about these before if you do a search. They are the best tyres IMO, 3 ply also and very tough, all the mines and cattle stations up north use them, which is where I first used them. 70-80K km in a set and I'm on my 4th set now. Definately better than Coopers IMO, but I know many love coopers (incidently I've got a set of 4 coopers for sale too if anyone wants them). I might also be tempted to give the Michellin LTX AT2 (235/85R16) a go for a change by the sound of them.

[travelrover]

The Michelin's I replaced were 750R16 4x4 XZL's but having a look tonight they don't appear to be available in Australia anymore. I bought the last ones at the end of 2012 and they were $421 each back then. I guess i got 60k out of them.

Cheers
Simon

[Michael2]

The Michelin's I replaced were 750R16 4x4 XZL's but having a look tonight they don't appear to be available in Australia anymore. I bought the last ones at the end of 2012 and they were $421 each back then. I guess i got 60k out of them.

Cheers
Simon

The Michelin selection is very limited. I was a bit concerned about traction with the LTX AT2's but have found them to be really good. Price is about $300ea if you shop around. They come with two load ratings, so the extra $10-$20 for the higher rating is worth it, and price-wise they compare well to everything else, and given the mileage they deliver, I'd say they work out quite cheap.

[connormotorsport]

Had a new set of cooper Stt put on my Colorado approx 8 months ago. The Colorado does the same tracks on my farm as my Landy and Mazda do and neither of them have ever gotten a single flat out here. I've had 3 coopers fail in under in as many months from 2 sidewall failures and a small piece of slate puncturing in between the tread blocks on the other.
I am an overly anal mechanic so tyre pressures and wheel alignments etc are very high on my list . Was so sorely disappointed after running the coopers finally when I got so many good reviews from other people. Also should note that I got a lot more aggressive wear on the coopers than I had with either bfg, maxxis or the michelins.

[Chris078]

Cannot comment on the Coopers, but another tyre to consider are
Hankook Dynapro ATM RF10s.

Got a set on my Perentie. Haven't had them offroad yet, but very happy with their on road performance and (low) noise.
By all reports they should be fairly capable off road as well.

[MrLandy]

Yes availability is my concern about Michelins too. Bridgestone 661's are available everywhere.

[tangus89]

I run coopers and have never had a problem in the wet or ever.
A set of STT's did 90k on my rangie and I have a set of 285/75 STT's on my 130 which have done just over 70k now with about 30% left. They do a lot of highway driving and fast dirt roads plus a fair share of rough crawling.

It is usually fairly loaded up (300kg in the tray) and I run 36psi rears and 32fronts with a rotation every 10k

[Babs]

I think the Cooper Horror stories would be the same for these people if they were running BFG, Goodyear, Maxxis, bla bla bla.

No tyre is bulletproof, if your doing nasty stuff expect some damage.

Careful wheel placement, correct tyre pressures for terrain, common sense and most of the big brands will stand up.

Some will handle the wet better, some the highway better, some the dirt and corrugated roads better, some the mud, some the rocks and some the sand. What do you want out of your tyres?

Admittedly, I jumped in my wife's Colorado 7 last week and we had a little rain, the same corner I always travel I found myself sideways a little, same tyres as the Defender Cooper ST MAXX yet I never get sideways in the Deefer, I get away with a lot more in the Deefer because of the constant 4WD. So that's my compromise over a better wet weather tyre, I opted for something more durable Offroad.

You'd be splitting hairs if your talking about tread punctures between the brands, IMO whatever puncture you'd get with the BFG or Bridgestone etc you would get with the Coopers, sometimes it just happens, could be wrong tyre pressures despite people saying they had the correct pressure in, ha what is the correct pressure???
It changes as your terrain changes and let's face it your not going to keep stopping on a track to change tyre pressures are you???

Too many variables when it comes to tyres, ring the manufacturer for info not the tyre dealer. I did this before purchasing the Coopers, I phoned Bridgestone and got the tech info on the D674 and I phones Coopers and got the tech info on the ST Maxx. I put questions to them on the opposing tyres I was considering, and although the Bridgestone got a good wrap from the tech guy they weren't up to the sidewall protection of the Coopers, which is more important to ME (maybe not you).
Like I said most of the brands have similar tread technology but not all have the sidewall technology. 99.9999% of. The time it's the tread that is in contact.

So what is the BEST tyre, whatever your comfortable with, whatever your budget is. If you stick with the major brands you can't go wrong.

Again, the horror stories would have happened no matter what brand tyre they were driving on (within reason).

My last Puma started out with BFG MUDS and after about 10k Klm I had a sidewall puncture, so I ran out and replaced them with Coopers. Ha ha ha there is a story behind it.

I was on the farm on the track, didn't let my tyres down because it was a compacted dirt track, so I was running 40psi. I decided I would make a phone call and as I was stuffing around with the phone I veered off the track and nipped a rock the size of a small soccer ball (not round). It split the sidewall open, now I don't think any tyre would have done any better in that situation now reflecting back but at the time it didn't seem that dramatic and I had extreme disappointment that the tyre had failed so....

So I sold the remaining 4 with only 10k or less (can't remember exactly) Klm on them, to a forum member and went out and got me self some Bullet Proof tyres ha ha ha.

Maybe the Coopers would have or wouldn't have stood up in the same scenario but I feel more comfortable having that higher percentage of a thicker sidewall for the next time I do something stupid or am too lazy to adjust pressures ha ha ha

Buy whatever YOU are comfortable with, you will do your head in reading different reviews on people's experiences with their tyres, I know I did ha ha ha

I secretly admire the new BFG AT's he he he.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

My brother sells tyres as part of his 4wd business. In his 20 years in business and 10 before that driving 4wd's in the Army, privately and working he has never liked Coopers. He is a fan of Maxxis and so am i. I also like GG AT2 but I think i got a bad batch once. Another batch was excellent. I also like Michelin. The current Wrangler Duratrac is also a great tyre on road and off. I have spoken to many people who have owned Coopers once. Coopers know how to advertise though.

Ch

[travelrover]

Babs, I agree with your view that there are horror stories with all brands (I had a series of bad Michelin's in the 80's, with the steel belting coming through the side wall, all replaced under warranty) and if Coopers were as bad as much of the commentary here suggests they would have been sued out of business in the US. Perhaps they don't sell the same model tyres in their home market.

Simon


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app

[Babs]

Babs, I agree with your view that there are horror stories with all brands (I had a series of bad Michelin's in the 80's, with the steel belting coming through the side wall, all replaced under warranty) and if Coopers were as bad as much of the commentary here suggests they would have been sued out of business in the US. Perhaps they don't sell the same model tyres in their home market. Simon Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app


Coopers 10years + ago weren't having much luck with their tyres, they earned themselves a pretty bad reputation. In saying that the company did a full turn around and invested in R&D.

I believe the Micky Thompson are a subsidiary of the Coopers Co apparently they are manufactured at the same plant. I was waiting for someone to fall into the trap of saying Mickies were better than Coopers ha ha ha.

Those 4WD Action blokes from the magazine used them extensively on their travels with no hiccups and they are pretty aggressive with them and the places they go.
Now before someone decides to get wise and remind my dumb ass that Coopers was a sponsor advertiser, I am aware but that doesn't change the fact that they put the tyres to the test and they have been put through more than what some of us could dish out and they have survived.

Drive past Silverwater where the magazines headquarters are and have a look at all the staffs vehicles, last time I looked they were Coopers.

Now I'm not going to say Coopers are any better than the other because it depends on what your intended use is but I do have to disregard the vague my brothers uncles dogs cats sister in laws son had them and had 40 pairs replaced under warranty because he ran 68psi Offroad and the treads all flew off and fell to bits bla bla bla.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

My brother sells tyres as part of his 4wd business. In his 20 years in business and 10 before that driving 4wd's in the Army, privately and working he has never liked Coopers. He is a fan of Maxxis and so am i. I also like GG AT2 but I think i got a bad batch once. Another batch was excellent. I also like Michelin. The current Wrangler Duratrac is also a great tyre on road and off. I have spoken to many people who have owned Coopers once. Coopers know how to advertise though. Ch

Ozscott I value your opinion it's worth as much as anyone else's but Maxxis IMO are and always will be the poor mans choice. A lot of people like them (I don't) and maybe they represent good value for money for what they are.
I have always interpreted them to be the young blokes tyre who wants 35" + size and they are the cheapest alternative.

I don't seem to find any sidewall info on them????

I'm open to anyone who wants to correct me on my opinion of the Maxxis but they don't seem to be in the same league as the big boys Bridgestone, BFG, Goodyear, Coopers, Michellin etc.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

No worries. The 751 Bravo LT rated very highly in the magazines tyre shootout and i have found their LT to be very tuff in the sidewall with excellent load rating and max pressure of 80 psi. They are a heavy duty build. Many years ago when i went to them having had Michelin XPC on 2 Discos i found the sidewall info but have not looked it up since. It is also printed on the sidewall. The 751 is very much like the XPC in handing but tougher in LT guise. I have had Duelers and wasnt impressed. Not tried Bfg. Had a set of Pirelli Scorpions on both Discos - very good tyre in AT but not as tough as the Maxxis in my experience and the Maxxis put up higher kilometers.

Cheers

[Babs]

Still not convinced. The reviews back up my previous comments.



108873



108874



108875



108876

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[Babs]

I still think they are at the bottom end but for the money they seem almost half the price I can see how they would suit some people.

As long as they do the job and your happy with them it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

Mate that is a very selective cut from that website...you dont mention that out of the 28 reviews on the 751 the average score was 4.3...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/775.jpg

[ozscott]

Cost isnt always an indicator. I take review sites as only one indicator but seeing as you raised it...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/774.jpg

[ozscott]

So by your measure a cheaper tyre gets better reviews than one of the 'big' brands. Maxxis are a very big player and frankly i would take a tyre made in Malaysia over one made in the US for quality...

[ozscott]

Ohhh dear. The new KM2 at probably $130 or more per tyre is not as well regarded as the old Maxxis Bravo
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/05/773.jpg

And when they are rating them the negative ones are not because these are expensive tyres - the tales for the KM2 in the negative reviews are of tyres that blow out easily and tyres that will not balance up. Noone is saying hey superb tyre, better than the cheaper ones but i have only given it 3.5 stars because whilst it should be dearer than the cheaper tyres, not THAT much dearer...

[Babs]

I'm still not convinced, I never said they were a bad tyre I actually acknowledged they might be good for the price representing good value.

I just don't think they stack up to the bigger brands!

The new BFG AT I am aware are having problems just like when you buy a new series car.
Try comparing to the old style BFG AT the Maxxis can't even come close.

Regardless I never compared them to any one particular brand rather made the comparison between all the major brands.

I'm pretty sure a large percentage of Maxxis buyers if they had a larger budget to choose a tyre wouldn't opt for a Maxxis. My understanding is they have always been a cheaper alternative not a first choice. Again I never said they were bad, they're just not great.

I still can't find any tech info on them maybe because there isn't.

You don't really have to worry about my opinion my reason for choosing a particular brand over another is because of my experiences and info that I have processed over the years, that will vary greatly to others.

If someone posts on here what is the Best tyre choice I'm going to recommend based on my experiences the Coopers, and acknowledge the attributes of BFG, Bridgestone, etc.

If someone posts on here what is the cheapest best tyre choice then I'll leave that to you and your experiences with your Maxxis.

If you don't understand that and want to compare them against some of the major brands best performers, then I won't entertain the thought.

This is not personal so don't take my abruptness the wrong way, I'm not trying to **** you off, my views just vary widely from yours.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

No problem. I didnt have budget in mind when i purchased Maxxis. They were recommended as the best tyre for my application that included regularly towing 2 tonns. The recommendation was from Jax as well as a number of others including family members who had run virtually all brands over some 30 plus yeats... It just so happened they were not the same cost as BFG etc. I am not trying to convince you because you have clearly made up your mind and equate cost with quality.

Cheers

[Babs]

No problem. I didnt have budget in mind when i purchased Maxxis. They were recommended as the best tyre for my application that included regularly towing 2 tonns. The recommendation was from Jax as well as a number of others including family members who had run virtually all brands over some 30 plus yeats... It just so happened they were not the same cost as BFG etc. I am not trying to convince you because you have clearly made up your mind and equate cost with quality. Cheers

Scott you hit the nail on the head- "you have clearly made up your mind and equate cost with quality" Damn right I am a strong believer in "you get what you pay for" and my choice has proven me right.

And just in case you were under the impression that I was directing the price conscious decision towards you personally, I wasn't, I was generalising.

I'm happy they work for you, I don't think driving a Defender which has a lack of soundproofing, will IMO accomodate a noisy tyre.

Scott I'm sure they are a reasonable tyre for some, we are all different in our choices, what a boring world if we were all the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[DiscoMick]

I was at my local Jax today getting two new Hankook ATs in 215/75/15LT fitted to the camper trailer ($179 each) and asked questions about 235/85/16s for the Defender. The Pirelli Scorpion ATRs are about $240 while the Hankook ATs in the same size are about $225. Both are 120 rated and LT. Prices are certainly good. So there's two more choices. Both have gotten good write ups, so worth considering.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[noyakfat]

I have the Hankook Dynapro M/T's in 265/75R16. 30,000km so far and going strong :)

[Babs]

I was at my local Jax today getting two new Hankook ATs in 215/75/15LT fitted to the camper trailer ($179 each) and asked questions about 235/85/16s for the Defender. The Pirelli Scorpion ATRs are about $240 while the Hankook ATs in the same size are about $225. Both are 120 rated and LT. Prices are certainly good. So there's two more choices. Both have gotten good write ups, so worth considering. Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

The Pirelli Scorpion I had on a Jeep a few years back, I never used them Offroad but they were fantastic on road, found them to be a softer compound and stuck really well in the wet, they were quiet and handled as they should. Oh and I got about 100,000klm out of them.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[EastFreo]

As I read these posts I seem to see a similar passion and arguments to our old Landrovers vs Toyota vs Nissan etc debate!

In my un-informed opinion there seems to be enormous variation in all brands.

One example I had was 9 years ago we bought a Prado when we where living up in Karratha. I copped a bit of flack about not swapping out the standard Dunlops for Coopers or whatever. Heard from some other Prado drivers how they barely got 20,000km etc out of them.

Anyway, in the end I got over 80,000 from them and they may have got a bit more but front went out of alignment.

I currently have the standard Michelins my Defender came with. Got me everywhere so far and seem pretty quiet. Done 40k and look like they have a lot more to go - test now is to see how much more I get!

[Toxic_Avenger]

I currently have the standard Michelins my Defender came with. Got me everywhere so far and seem pretty quiet. Done 40k and look like they have a lot more to go - test now is to see how much more I get!

I'm currently sitting on 33,000 km on the factory goodyear MT's... Tread is pretty much down to the TWI's and starting to chip badly.

[frantic]

Hi all

Has anyone had experience with Cooper S/T MAXX 235/85R16's on a defender 110?

I had two fitted to the rear on the weekend (on advice from the local tyre specialist). Prior to this I had Michelin XZY 750R16's which were due for replacement. I was looking for a quality tyre with a long life. Still have Michelin's on the front.

The Coopers are certainly quieter but the vehicle (ute) feels unstable on the rear and for the first time ever I got in a rear slide driving home on a (gravel) road I drive everyday, and have done for 20 years.

Have I got the wrong tyre? Would it likely improve if I spend the additional $660 and fit them to the front?

Appreciate any guidance.


Sent from my iPhone using AULRO mobile app
I've said similar in the 255 thread, when I bought my 110 wagon it had cooper st 235, which felt like crap, slippery in drizzle on tar and chipped on gravel, as soon as I got enough cash bought maxxis bighorns 255/85 ( 2 main options in that size are bfg km2 mt or bighorns)they felt more stable in dry, better grip in wet and better than a mate who put 285 coopers on his patrol off-road.:D
Honestly they did about 60- 65,000 km but coopers supposedly do more, and get noisy when almost worn out.
Another review of tyres for defenders by a uk Landy mag WHO ARE NOT SPONSORED found kuhmo kl71 to be better than all others, problem is their directional and wear quicker. But they are , in oz, cheaper than bfg, maxxis, copper and all the big name mt. In going to try them next in a bigger size:twisted: maybe 315.

[ozscott]

No no Frantic...they cant be better because they are cheaper!
[emoji83]

[Babs]

No no Frantic...they cant be better because they are cheaper! [emoji83]

Here you go Scott you'd be happy with this
http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=128177&view=print

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

[ozscott]

Cheers Babs

[Michael2]

Here you go Scott you'd be happy with this
http://www.4wdaction.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=128177&view=print

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

I had the Maxxis Bravo before the Michelins. It was a really good and sticky tyre. Where the Defender squealed tyres around a corner previously, with the Maxxis i'd get greater body lean with no loss of traction. The Tyre shop guy thought they'd be best value, as they were half the price of the Michelins at the time.

I opted for the Michelins for the extra sidewall ply, and for their extended lifespan. If I was on a budget, I'd be happy with the Maxxis, but the Michelins are actually better economy in the long run, and I save a day of my life, by not having to replace tyres at what would have been the Michelins half life. My Maxxis were still good when I replaced them, but I was heading into the Kimberley and down the Tanami on my own, and didn't have confidence in their puncture resistance when they were down on tread.

I've got BFGs on the D2, only because they came with a set of rims, and I feel that the Maxxis and Michelins are both a lot better.

[DiscoMick]

The Jax guy mentioned he'd just had some bloke come in and replace his Continental ATRs at 90,000 kms and they still had some tread life left, so that was a good rap for them. He bought another set and kept the old ones as extra spares.