Major vibration towing with D4 (in 2 brand new disco 4's)

[JamesAdelaide]

Hi Guys,

Looking for any input or experiences on what is a really sad situation.

We bought our first ever land rover, 2016 discovery 4 in Feb.
Love the car... however, when towing our 1.75 tonne boat at any speeds over 100 as soon as we hit an incline, we get a major vibration through the car.

We also get the vibration towing our 1.2-1.3 (loaded) tonne box trailer.
Not as bad but still a heavy vibration.

The vibration is through the whole car.
Changing gears or going into neutral does not affect the issue.
So it seems to be a driveline fault of some kind.

It is a SDV6 Dec build, Jan compliance.

Land rover have tried a new diff, new rear drive shafts and a wheel balance and it has made no difference.

Next step they want to try a "road force" balance, which apparently is a balance where they apply load to the tyres.

Today they brought another 2016 disco (late 2015 build) and we took the boat for a test drive, same issue.

Naturally they are pointing fingers at the trailer.

I'e had the trailer for 3 years and towed it behind no less than 3 other late model 4wd's and it tows like a dream.

Our last vehicle was a 2010 pajero and we did many thousand km's with the boat and box trailer with zero issues.

It has about 6-7% of the weight on the ball, dual axle mackay PU series trailer, only 7 yrs old and in very good condition, mechanical brakes, new bearings every 2-3 yrs, boat always secured with winch strap, tensioned chain at the front and ratchet straps at the rear. Boat is a haines hunter 1997 hull.
We always tow at highway speeds with the canopy all down an well secured.

We also load the boat up with probably 200-300kg of dive gear for trips (with a small increase in ball weight) and the problem is no different.

Our box trailer is a custom 6x4 single axle box trailer with steel frame aluminium panels. We load it very carefully to get a good 50-60kg ball weight (scuba tanks go at the front) and it has always towed perfectly.

I am in a very difficult position now, as with two new vehicles doing the same thing it seems to be a fundamental fault in the vehicle.

Any comments or insights would be greatly appreciated.
Is anyone in adelaide towing a similar weight boat that could possibly let me try towing their boat or vice versa?
Ideally an older build?

Maybe there is an issue with the late 2015 builds?

We are close to just getting rid of the vehicle and cutting our losses, which would be a shame, but my options are running out.

Cheers
James
:(

[Graeme]

Very early D4s with the same problem was caused by an incorrectly welded bracket for the rear tail-shaft centre bearing so the cause may be applicable to a batch of vehicles. I can't understand why LR hasn't replaced the tail-shaft, being the first item that I would have replaced after checking the trailer for a deformed tyre.

Edit: Can you borrow different wheels for at least the box trailer for a test? Have the trailer wheels been balanced?

[JamesAdelaide]

Cheers Graeme, I will pass on that feedback.

[Basil135]

My boat trailer isn't exactly fit for the road, at this point, but if you wanted to bring yours, or your box trailer and hook it to my car, we can go for a run & see.

I have a MY13, and have towed some good loads with it, all the way to Whyalla and back, with no issues. I did notice that on some roads, especially at highway speeds, the trailer assist function is working. It isn't violent at all, but you know it is there.

Guessing you are going to Solitaire, and if so, and they lent you a red D4 to test it out on, I wouldn't trust it. I know the bloke that has been driving it since new, and he is normally a Defender driver..... ;) He probably trashed it.

We are up by TTP, so give me a yell if you like.

[JamesAdelaide]

Cheers Basil, looks like a mate has an MY13 close by I might hook up.
Also taking a slightly heavier boat for a test run sat.
Yeah dealing with solitaire, the service manager brought his brand new black d4 TD down, only 1200km's on the clock, that was the vehicle we tested it on.

[Basil135]

Not a worry.

If you get stuck, let me know. This weekend is out, as I am already working Sunday on Mothers Day, but Sunday next week is good at this stage, or through the week is usually easy too.

[JamesAdelaide]

Hey Graeme - yeah wheels were balanced on both trailers fairly recently (brand new rims on the box trailer a few months back).

I will jack up and double check boat trailer tyres are not deformed, but again doesn't explain it on the other trailer.

I swear I can pick it with no load under certain high torque throttle conditons too...

[LRD414]

James, IIRC someone on here had a faulty tailshaft uni joint replaced at very low km's (or possibly whole tailshaft replaced) only last year.
From memory I think it was "Nicky". Not sure of exact symptoms but certainly some vibration.

Cheers,
Scott

[JamesAdelaide]

Thanks Scott, I am going to push them to try tailshaft and uni joint replacement for sure. Problem is seems there is a problem with not just mine so depends what batch the parts come from.

I'm towing a different (similar weight) boat tomorrow and have a mate with MY13 who is going to tow mine, at least collect some more info to take to LR.

[LRD414]

I'm towing a different (similar weight) boat tomorrow and have a mate with MY13 who is going to tow mine, at least collect some more info to take to LR.

Good plan, differential diagnosis should be very helpful.

Scott

[Tinman]

Hi James Just a though my son brought the new D4 2016 when I was looking over and under it I noticed that the swinging weights underneath at rear were cable tied up so they wouldnt swing. Said to my son you have gotta let those things swing or you may end up with vibration etc. Just a thought

[JamesAdelaide]

Hmmm swinging weights? Not sure I follow, could you ellaborate?

[BigJon]

Have a look under the rear bumper at the corners. Big rubber mounted pendulum weights designed to stop vibration / harshness issues.

[Nicky]

James, IIRC someone on here had a faulty tailshaft uni joint replaced at very low km's (or possibly whole tailshaft replaced) only last year.
From memory I think it was "Nicky". Not sure of exact symptoms but certainly some vibration.

Cheers,
Scott

Yes, Nicky here, it was me. The whole rear drive-shaft is not an expensive part, and as I recall it was not LR but a 3rd party supplier. Eventually this was the culprit, even after a new E-diff replacing the original made no difference. All this when the car was new and had done under 1k.

[JamesAdelaide]

Thanks Nicky.
They did replace the diff and the left hand drive shaft.
Just to be clear yours was a driveshaft (from the diff to wheel) not tailshaft issue (sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology).

Re the pendulum weights, yep, mine are 'free'.
Darn strange seeing them for the first time... wow.

[AndrewM]

Hi James,
Sorry to hear your first Land Rover experience has not been all grins :mad:.

Not sure if this help, but may go some way to eliminating the "batch issue". In Feb I picked up my new SDV6 MY16, a Nov 15 build and Jan 16 compliance. I tow a similar setup - Stejcraft 640 on a Dumbier tandem with 13" rims with over-ride brakes, all up about 1800kg I guess. I have not had any problems, although mainly flat freeway driving so far. Previously I towed the same set up with a D3 TDV6 also with no dramas on lots of roads for a few years.

I have noticed though that the D4 standard hitch has the trailer about 50mm nose down compared to dead level on the D3 with its Mitch Hitch. But this should not create these vibrations.

I'm sure you will get it sorted soon and the perma-grin with appear :D

[JamesAdelaide]

Thanks Andrew, kind of rules out the batch issue as ours is Nov 19th 2015 build and Jan 2016 compliance. Cheers for the feedback too, I might try the towbar upside down to lift it.

But as you said, I've fiddled with lots of trailer weights/hitch heights over the years and none of them affect such a major vibration.

[Nicky]

Thanks Nicky.
They did replace the diff and the left hand drive shaft.
Just to be clear yours was a driveshaft (from the diff to wheel) not tailshaft issue (sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology).

Re the pendulum weights, yep, mine are 'free'.
Darn strange seeing them for the first time... wow.

James, it was the rear tail-shaft, your "driveshaft" definition, is an axel

[rufusking]

I remember this thread from a couple of years ago.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/d3-d4-rrs/168163-trailer-wobble-d4-chapter-2-a-2.html
Sound familiar?

[JamesAdelaide]

Thanks rufusking, in fact the service manager referenced I think the same person/car and reckons in the end it was the float...

I will try and contact Ruby2 and find out what the resolution was.

James

[AndrewM]

Hi James,
Reading Ruby's post link below, NTB had a similar vibration under hard acceleration with no trailer. Turned out to be the front drive assembly.

Do you get the vibration under similar conditions - no trailer, hard acceleration?

Also notice both you and Ruby are in SA and deal with Solataire :o ......

[Stuart02]

Hi James,
Reading Ruby's post link below, NTB had a similar vibration under hard acceleration with no trailer. Turned out to be the front drive assembly.

Do you get the vibration under similar conditions - no trailer, hard acceleration?

Also notice both you and Ruby are in SA and deal with Solataire :o ......

What do you mean by front drive assembly?

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[AndrewM]

From NTB's post on the link below, "... found it was a issue with the Front Drive Shaft. The Front Drive Shaft did not appear to be faulty in anyway from the inspection. I replacement Front Drive Shaft was ordered anyway and fitted. The Front Drive Shaft assembly included the universals as well."

[NTB]

Hello All,

Since my front drive shaft assemble has been replaced (at about 1 or 2 months after delivery) I have not had any further issues.

I was fortunate when the Service Dealer could not work out what was actually wrong that they then used a Demo Vehicle to swap out parts. Once established what had to be replaced, new replacement parts were ordered and fitted to my vehicle. The Demo Vehicle was installed with it original parts again.

I hope you get to the bottom of your issue James.

NTB (Neil)

[JamesAdelaide]

Thanks Neil for the input, I will keep everyone posted.
Testing my boat with the MY13 D4 this week and towing a mates boat also try try and confirm a few things.

James

[laughto]

I too have a similar issue, however not as severe. Mine is only noticeable on smooth bitumen roads when towing above about 80 - 85kph. My symptoms are a light 'shudder' for about 1 second, about half second of smooth, and then 1 second of light shudder and so on. Coming back from previous trip, did seem to be getting worse, however may have been my anxiety/imagination.

Car in for service next week, and is on issues to review.

[Basil135]

I too have a similar issue, however not as severe. Mine is only noticeable on smooth bitumen roads when towing above about 80 - 85kph. My symptoms are a light 'shudder' for about 1 second, about half second of smooth, and then 1 second of light shudder and so on. Coming back from previous trip, did seem to be getting worse, however may have been my anxiety/imagination.

Car in for service next week, and is on issues to review.

This sounds like the trailer stability program doing its work. I reckon you found the sweet spot of a harmonic on the trailer, and the car is doing what it is supposed to, and correcting the sway, before you notice it.

On a rougher road, you probably don't notice it, but on a nice smooth section, you will. Get them to check it, by all means, but this sounds exactly like what happens before the trailer gets out of hand.

[laughto]

I bow to your greater knowledge on this issue, but I would not have thought the van (2t off road camper trailer) would be out of shape at such low speeds. Will be interested to hear LRs explanation.

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[LRD414]

This sounds like the trailer stability program doing its work. I reckon you found the sweet spot of a harmonic on the trailer, and the car is doing what it is supposed to, and correcting the sway, before you notice it.



On a rougher road, you probably don't notice it, but on a nice smooth section, you will. Get them to check it, by all means, but this sounds exactly like what happens before the trailer gets out of hand.

Basil, do you think you'd notice or hear the light application of brakes similar to the "fluttering" of HDC when the trailer stability system is active? I assume that it uses the brakes.

Scott

[Basil135]

I bow to your greater knowledge on this issue, but I would not have thought the van (2t off road camper trailer) would be out of shape at such low speeds. Will be interested to hear LRs explanation.


You MAY have found a harmonic sweet spot on the camper, which kicks in at those speeds. See what LR have to say.


Basil, do you think you'd notice or hear the light application of brakes similar to the "fluttering" of HDC when the trailer stability system is active? I assume that it uses the brakes.

Scott

You could well do.

I was towing a badly loaded trailer, and on a smooth section of road, could feel the trailer assist working. I understand that it does use very light, very fast application of the brakes, to counter the sway of the trailer before it gets out of hand.


On a normal Aussie road ;) I have never felt it working, but do on those rare, smooth sections. I don't tow a van, but I would suspect that the trailer assist would be working harder if the van was hit with a cross wind, or similar, causing it to start to get out of shape.

[AndrewM]

Basil, do you think you'd notice or hear the light application of brakes similar to the "fluttering" of HDC when the trailer stability system is active? I assume that it uses the brakes.

Scott
Presumably the trailer assist would only be activating if needed, and assuming the vehicle knows the trailer is there. ie all the wiring is set up correctly with load on the indicators. With LEDs and no resistors or globes, I assume TSC would not be turned on.

[Graeme]

When the D4 was first released LR stated and demonstrated with a Defender on a trailer that the electrics do not need to be connected for TSC to work.

[laughto]

I too have a similar issue, however not as severe. Mine is only noticeable on smooth bitumen roads when towing above about 80 - 85kph. My symptoms are a light 'shudder' for about 1 second, about half second of smooth, and then 1 second of light shudder and so on. Coming back from previous trip, did seem to be getting worse, however may have been my anxiety/imagination.

Car in for service next week, and is on issues to review.


So after service, LR found worn controller arms and will replace when these are available. Hopefully this will solve my problem. Not sure if relevant to OP.

[laughto]

I had Control Arms replaced today under warranty. Have not been able to check the problem with the shuddering when towing.

Is it normal to do a Wheel Alignment when replacing these? I do not believe this was done.

[Disco-tastic]

It is required to do a wheel alignment after changing the arms or any bushes/ball joints. I'd be asking for the test reaults from the alignment, or some other hard evidence that it was done.

Cheers

Dan

[laughto]

On review of the doco, there was a line item for wheel alignment, however the report, which is what I was looking for originally is not attached to this. Phoned LR and asked for a copy. Couldn't find it on my file was the answer, but the Service Manager would email it to me b4 he left for the night. Has not arrived so will be on to it tomorrow morning first thing. Hopefully it exists!

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[LRD414]

Thanks Neil for the input, I will keep everyone posted.

Testing my boat with the MY13 D4 this week and towing a mates boat also try try and confirm a few things.

So what was the verdict of the testing James?

Scott